Does anyone have any advice for helping their child, dealing with A and OC? Our daughter had been holding everything in and would not even talk to me about it very much. The other evening, our daughter, did something wrong that she knew was wrong. When my H tried to discipline her, she began extremely anger and said it wasn't fair. Why should she not be allowed to go to her soocer game for doing what she did even if it was wrong, it was wrong for him to go sleep with someone else and have 2 OC, why should she be punished and he not receive any punishment. She screamed she hated him and told him to leave several times, she said you hurt mom so bad, she doesn't want you here, tell him mom, tell him to leave tell him to get out, he doesn't deserve to stay here.
I was at a loss for what to do. But I stayed out of the issue mostly. I only stepped in to correct our daughter when she said it was my fault she got in trouble since I am the one who told what she did. I reminded her how she had asked me why everyone was blaming me when I did nothing wrong and I asked if I was responsible for what her dad had done, she said no, and then I said then am I responsible for what you chose to do, I had no knowledge of it, I didn't make the choice and just because I told him, does not make me responsible.
I cautioned my H not to be too hard on her and I told him it really has nothing to do with the CD she broke. He claimed she was acting the way she was because she had never been disciplined and she could accept discipline. I had to bite my tongue hard not to really respond to that one. I told him he needed to listen to what she was saying, that was what it was about. Let her get it out. The only thing I said to him was that you chose not to be involved for in her discipline so don't imply that it is my fault.
Later, he gave in on his original terms of restriction and let her go to the soccer game. He made her write sentences " I will not destroy other's property..." and "I will not blame my mother for things she is not responsible.." In my mind, I thought I wonder if N-- (the older OC) was ever made to write that since that is exactly what she is being encouraged to do, blame me for everything.
I am so glad my daughter was able to get her feelings out and to express some of her anger. I just hope my H gets it.
Ann,
The child can get caught between and within the tensions of the two parents. I think that it's hard for betrayed parents not to let out obvious or subliminal negative comments to the child about the wayward spouse. It's also hard to know how blatantly truthful (about the affair situation) to be with children and what to withhold. Some of it depends on the age of the child. Lots of things factor in.
It sounds like you've got a powder keg on your hands. Her behavior will likely become more problematic; certainly for you, her parents, but more importantly for herself.
My advice based on experience with 5 kids affected by adultery is to address the child's anger and emotions NOW and as thoroughly as you can. Sounds like she's got a lot of hurt in there.
I am also thinking along the same lines as Red Wolf and Tex..
Your H needs to sit down and talk to both your daughter and your oldest step daughter......
Both are seeing a father who has his head in the sand...they both see your IL's telling OC you are the problem...
Your H is letting OW call the shots...and his parents...but has no concern for you...or your child and SChild
I would also remind him that he is letting N get away with the same behavior...all around he has made you out to be the bad guy...
Your daughters behavior is just the tip of the iceberg...and you need to deal with it...on going or you will really have behavior problems...i.e. my dad had sex...no one blames him so I can too..I can drink if I want to...I can have drugs...the list goes on...I have seen it all to often...the anger shows up in many different ways...
pat
edited for spelling
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Jan 26, 2006 2:50 PM
<<Your H needs to sit down and talk to both your daughter and your oldest step daughter......>>
I agree and I have told him so from the beginning. My daughter had heard rumors before I had and I think she has heard more than she is telling me. She is 14 now. Several years ago, maybe 4-5 I am not for sure, when driving down the road one day, she said out of the blue, you should divorce dad. At the time, I only knew about the confessed affair in 1988/89 that I had put in the past long ago. I never did get an explanation out of her where the comment came from. I actually told my d, you don't just divorce because you want to or because you don't always get your way. We experienced severe flooding, enough that it was declared a natural disaster,and we were unable to live in our home for 6 months. My H truly began to flip out. When we moved back in every time it would rain for more than a day, he would panic. I became more concerned for his mental health than anything, and actually made the first MC appt because I knew I could never get him to go get help himself. In December 2003, I told him I am making an appointment and if he didn't show up I was going to consider it meant he wanted to divorce. He showed up and went and the C was not very good. She would never stay on one subject. I even had to point out to her that he kept changing the subject and would never address anything. He stormed out about the 4th time, because she said to me, that it sounded like I had a business relationship, not a marriage and that she didn't see why I didn't just file for divorce. I can't even remember what he said as he stormed out. Then in about April 2004, I thought I was being strong for a friend who was going through a divorce, and as she mentioned how she was hurt because someone knew all along about her H's A. I told her about how the one time I gave a friend's H 24 hours to tell his W what I had witnessed (talking to another woman, time and place weren't right, A waiting to happen but thats another story) and then I was going to tell her what I saw and how I don't understand how someone could claim to be a friend to someone and not be honest with you. Then she admitted that her 12 year old son (who had been in my d's class since K) had came home crying one night he returned from a high school football game (same HS where OC goes) with his grandparents, because he had seen N--(my daughter)'s dad with a woman and it wasn't me. I was careful not to jump to conclusions because after all his parents were going thru a divorce at the time. He told grandparents at the game but the grandmother said she couldn't say for sure if it was him because she has only seen my H maybe 3 times at the most. My d overheard my part of the conversation and when I got off the phone she said who were you talking to and wanted to know why I mentioned the HS name. She questioned what game I was talking about (I had asked home or away and location) and then she proceeded to tell me that a girl from the her class had came to school one day and said they saw her dad at the high school football game with another woman. She said she told them it probably was her sister. The 11 or 12 year old classmate said no it wasn't her sister. My d said at the time she dismissed it and forgot about the whole thing and couldn't remember if it was that school year or one or two years before. One game was a home game the other was an away game. I confronted my H and told him to take me to the OW and tell her it was over here and now. Deny, deny, deny, deny. That is what he did and I guess that is what I did too. I look back and thing why did I insist on having verifable truth. And now that I have it why am I still here.
Then in the summer of 2004, my d suddenly stopped wanting to go to the church youth service on Wed night. I asked her many times why and she would not tell me, I finally said I was going to talk to the youth pastor because if someone was bothering her he should know and that nothing should make her uneasy about being involved with the teens. She had started sitting with me during the service instead of the teens on Sun morning also. It was only then did she tell me a lot of kids from the high school named, went to youth group and she keep thinking when she would meet someone from that high school, what if that was really her brother. Then in Nov 2004 I caught him with his parents at a basketball game for the 9 year old, played at where but none other than the same high school. This high school is about 20 miles away from our home.
I told my H he didn't have a choice, he had to tell our daughter and he had to tell my step-daughter. He did a very poor job of telling our d. I have told him repeatily that he has to tell my sdaughter. I even shared that our d had said to me "why doesn't he just walk up to her and slap her in the face or stab her in the heart, small difference" My H of course could not see it and I don't think he does now. He told me it wasn't the same thing and I said that is what you think because you have never lived through it. He then claimed he had lived through the same thing for years because "people talk" and he knew I had an A. I said yeah right, that is BS and you know it.
He still hasn't told my sdaughter and he still doesn't know of her finding out accidentally.
He is doing things on the outside, like spending more time with us and I always know where he is but I don't know if there is a change on the inside.
I told my H I have failed as a wife and I have failed as a mother, and I refuse to fail my d anymore. That if he could not agree and abide by NOT visiting with the OC unless our daughter was already busy, then he needed to leave. I would be no part of her being hurt any further when it could be easily avoided. He could see them 3 times a week easy while she is busy with her college class, civil air patrol and church. He has been the one who has chosen not to see them during the week.
I have been encouraging our daughter to talk to me but she won't. I have delayed counseling for her because I don't want to force her into it.
The insistence that the OC are not to every meet me is making it harder for her and I have told my H so, but it is like talking to a wall.
I think he would like to just not go visit these OC at all, and let everyone blame me. As if I have ever had control over anything he did.
<<The child can get caught between and within the tensions of the two parents. I think that it's hard for betrayed parents not to let out obvious or subliminal negative comments to the child about the wayward spouse.>>
I am thankful I have been able to encourage her to tell him how she feels and to not talk badly about him in front of her. While I am sure right after d-day, the negative comments did come out sometimes when I lost control but I have a handle on it now. I delay any discussion with him until she is out of the house for several hours so that I will have time to recompose myself if needed. I saw first hand how bitter a divorced parent can become in my h's ex-wife and I refuse to become bitter. That is for my own sake.
What IS he doing to help his daughter? Have you ever asked him if he would want any of his daughters to be treated like this by their H or b/f? Would he expect them to put up with it?
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Jan 26, 2006 11:03 PM
<<<What IS he doing to help his daughter? Have you ever asked him if he would want any of his daughters to be treated like this by their H or b/f? Would he expect them to put up with it?>>>
First I want to say I am not making excuses for my H, because there is no excuse. He has been spending more time with us. We have been doing family activities together. He has taken her to the movies and out to eat several times, just the two of them (more so because I deliberately did not go). He is talking to her more about things she is doing, how is her art class, commenting on her soccer game, etc, nothing substantial.
Yes, I have made the statement about how would he like his own daughter to be treated even before d-day. And I think he just doesn't get it. In the past, he has encouraged our son-in-law to act toward my step-daughter in a way that would upset her and in my opinion would be disrespectful. But he doesn't see it that way, he thinks some of the things that I see as disrespectful is just joking and having fun and not to be taken seriously. The problem is I am not the only one who sees it that way. I have told him in the past, did he not notice that our son-in-law sort of ignored him when he would make some of his comments. In fact, they both would ignore him and engage in conversation with me, and not acknowledge sometimes when he was "just joking" and trying to get my son-in-law in a converstation that would be disrepectful to his wife. I really thing he doesn't understand completely what he has done.
There is no excuse. But I can see where he gets it from. My ILs are like that. However, my H has been out in the world and he knows everyone else does act that way. He is capable of not being that way too. I think sometimes it does it because he is unsure of himself.
As my step-daughter has said she knows when it comes down to it, she may never speak to my ILs again. Not because of what my H has done but because the way they are acting. No regard for me, her or her sister. She made the statement that this (the A and OC) is life changing and she knows the ILs will act like this is just something that happens in life, no big deal, and when she voices her opinion they will act as if she is making a big deal and there is something wrong with her, she is unable to deal with life, etc.. She is suprised by the total lack of maturity begin shown by everyone. I think my H is in denial and doesn't want to accept responsibility and just wants to tell himself it is just something that happens. It doesn't just happen. Two individual MAKE A CHOICE or it doesn't happen.
I have also asked him would he want his mother treated this way. I never received an answer. Would he wanted to be treated the same way (he kids himself and claims he has been treated this way for years alleging he knows I have cheated on him because "people talk").
I can see outward changes but I think how long is that going to last. I don't know if he has truly had a change of heart and I don't know how to know if he has either other than to watch his actions.
I think he is very afraid. Afraid of losing his home, his security and of being on his own. Because of the outward changes I have given him more time, I don't know how much more I will give but I know it won't be the rest of my life, if there isn't an change inside.
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else or not. While I am not scheming and planning to leave, divorce, etc I am getting some of my ducks in a row because so that if the time comes, I won't be caught off guard.
I want to reconcile. But I have no control over his actions. Therefore, I am not responsible for the ultimate outcome.
I am not staying to control the way he interacts with our daughter. It is more because I haven't decided to leave I am occassionally trying to guide him and point out to him some things that may help healing with her.
The choice is his as it has always been. I wish I could protect my d from al the hurt but I can't , I can only do the best I can to minimize it and to encourage healing.
<<I guess my question would be has your H talked one on one with your D?>>
When he did because I told him he did not have a choice, he only relay that she had a sister and a brother. He insisted he talk to her alone and I allowed it. When she talked to me later, she was under the impression there was just 1 OC because she already knew she had a sister(my step-daughter). I immediately went into the room where my H was and told him to tell her the complete truth and had our daughter say what her understanding was. He didn't do a very good job of it.
I agree with 1) & 2), I don't know about 3)
<<< She deserves some kind of reassurance from him that:
1) he is sorry for hurting you both and perhaps give her an apology.>>>
I have told him he needs to tell her this but to my knowledge he hasn't
<<<2) he loves her regardless of what happens.>>>>
I have told him he needs to tell her this and to take the initiative to hug her and tell her he loves her some when he gets ready to leave (from what I have been told the older OC is very clingy and always hugs my H and says I love you when he leaves and my H says I love you back, our daughter witnessed this the day she meet the 2 OC) I don't know if he has taken my advice or not.
<<3) he IS being punished for his actions because he has to live with himself everyday(if indeed he is).>>
In response to her screaming at him that he deserved to be punished and that he had not received any punishment, he said he had been punished. What he meant by that I don't know because it hasn't been shared with me. Did he mean he was punished by not spending the time he wanted with the OC because of me? I don't know what he meant. I don't think he is living with himself every day, I think he is in denial. I don't see how anyone could live with themselves and not beg for forgiveness and do everything within their power to try to make it up to our daughters. For whatever reason, he has not brought himself to tell the truth to his oldest daughter.
<<My concern is if this is not addressed she'll end up really hating him and resenting you.>>
I believe she already has feelings of resentment toward me for allowing him to remain in our home, even if it is not permanent. When she has asked my what I am going to do, I have been honest and said I don't know, I want to work through some of my anger and pain before I make a such a critical life decision. She commented yeah mom, I bet it will take you 4 years to make up your mind (she is 14 years old) I asked her what she meant and why she would say that. She didn't answer. I clarified and said it was my decision and no one else was responsible for my decision regardless of what I decided. I didn't vocalize it but I read thru the lines that she thought I was just staying for her. I told her I valued her input and I wanted to know how she felt because I loved her and cared for her but I would not base my decision on anything she said. She could in no way take any responsible for anything I choose to do. The decision was mine and mine alone.
I agree if he doesn't grow up they both will probably end up hating him no how much I might try to encourage forgiveness.
<<It sounds like you've got a powder keg on your hands. Her behavior will likely become more problematic; certainly for you, her parents, but more importantly for herself.
My advice based on experience with 5 kids affected by adultery is to address the child's anger and emotions NOW and as thoroughly as you can. Sounds like she's got a lot of hurt in there.>>>
How do I address them now. She has refused to talk to me many times. I have seen the pain and hurt and have told my H repeatily that he needed to do something. I feel like I am helpless. I can do no more than pray for her, try to set a good example, be available to her if she ever would chose to open up, and to encourage forgiveness, not because it is deserved by anyone but for our own health and for obedience to God, we must forgive.
I have told my H to leave if he cannot agree and abide by limiting the visits with the OC to when our daughter is already busy and if he cannot spend more time with her. As far as I know he has been trying to do both of these. But he isn't talking to her about the OC. He things avoidance is better. Although, I have pointed out look at the mess he choice to avoid being truthful has created.
<<<My advice based on experience with 5 kids affected by adultery is to address the child's anger and emotions NOW and as thoroughly as you can. Sounds like she's got a lot of hurt in there.>>>
What I would like is some specific suggestions on how to handle it now. Will you share some of your experience with me? Something you learned I must DO and things that I must NOT DO.
dancing gal
<<<I would also remind him that he is letting N get away with the same behavior...all around he has made you out to be the bad guy... >>>
This very thought cross my mind the minute he told my d to write the sentences but I didn't feel it would accomplish anything to say it at the time. I have thought about telling him sometime in the future when things are calmer.
3) he IS being punished for his actions because he has to live with himself everyday(if indeed he is).
<<<In response to her screaming at him that he deserved to be punished and that he had not received any punishment, he said he had been punished. What he meant by that I don't know because it hasn't been shared with me>>>
What I meant by (3) was that he was extremely remorseful for the hurt he has caused. He has hurt you, his daughter and has helped bring two children into the world who don't have their father fulltime.
Since you don't know what he meant by his comment don't you think you should ask him? What if he feels he's being punished for all the "wrong" reasons and not for the hurt he's caused? Can you still reconcile? Yup. But would you want too? Logic dictates he couldn't have been too remorseful after the 1st A because he did it again. What is he doing to show you this time will be different?
What does he expect ya'll to do? What is he saying? Who does he love...I mean truly love... to the depth of his being?
He's a very lucky man that after 2 A's and 2 OC you are even considering staying with him.
You mentioned his 1st W...that she is bitter. Why is she bitter? He didn't cheat on her did he?
If he didn't please forgive me for asking. If he did...I hate to say this but you might need to consider you've got a serial betrayer on your hands.
Whatever the case may be...he has a bitter XW, a twice betrayed current W trying to find forgiveness again, an unhappy D and 2 OC who don't get to experience the joys of having their dad around all the time.
The odds say the problem isn't with all of you since y'all have only one thing in common. HIM. I hope for everybody's sake he steps up to the plate and decides the do the right thing for as many as he can.
Regards,
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Jan 27, 2006 6:56 PM
I noticed that each child handled it very differently.
Overall, it seemed very important that their feelings were validated sooner or later, that is, if they even showed their feelings outright. Some don't. The reason I say sooner or later is that if you miss an opportunity to handle things well, say during crisis, it does not mean that you can't make an effort later on when you regain better composure.
I have done a lot of attempted repair work after the fact, and I think it was important for me to make that effort.
I have apologized even when I've been aware of the fact that I did not have the affair and I did not create the 'big mess' that those kids were subjected to. I still felt bad and let them know that I knew they were hurting.
This hurt and anger can impact them and their behavior way into adulthood. I see this in the four oldest--29, 27, 25, and 24. None of them have married. None of them find trust easy. They all carry residual anger from what happened although they have all worked on it....a lot.
Sometimes therapy for kids can help. Sometimes it's marginal. Depends.
The one thing I saw which was really disastrous (the X did this) was to shove the anger that he created right back down the throats of the kids exhibiting it. He often made their reaction to his actions their problem. He seemed perplexed as to why the behavior of one of his daughters (as a teen) was like living with nitroglycerin. It's like he couldn't connect the dots. Anyway, that's a primary reason she got so demonstrative. Her feelings were not handled well at all.
This message has been edited by Red--Wolf on Jan 28, 2006 9:16 AM
I have been concerned about both of our d and the effect it will have on their relationships in the future.
Each time our 14 year old has expressed her feelings about her dad, I have acknowledged them and encouraged her to talk to him. She usually says what is the point, he won't get it. Which I hate to say but she is probably right. I have considered if he doesn't at least start to get it and make an effort to make it up to our daughter, I may just TELL, not ask, him to leave. Although I would never acknowledge this as a deciding factor to our daughter, my concern for our daughter is high on my priority list. Some may think that letting her know her feelings may affect my decision would make her feel more loved by me, but I disagree. I believe both our daughters know that I love them. The decision is mine and I will not do anything that may lead her to believe she influenced/therefore may have any responsibility for my decision.
<<What I meant by (3) was that he was extremely remorseful for the hurt he has caused. He has hurt you, his daughter and has helped bring two children into the world who don't have their father fulltime.>>
Is he extremely remorseful? I would like to think that he is but so far his actions hasn't proved it to me. I can see where she thinks he has suffered no punishment, in her eyes, he hasn't lost his home, his marriage or his daily contact with us. He has allowed others to blame me for his actions and their actions. I don't want to say he hasn't been punished at all because I can't imagine him not having pain inside somewhere because of what he had done.
<<Since you don't know what he meant by his comment don't you think you should ask him? What if he feels he's being punished for all the "wrong" reasons and not for the hurt he's caused? Can you still reconcile? Yup. But would you want too? Logic dictates he couldn't have been too remorseful after the 1st A because he did it again. What is he doing to show you this time will be different?>>
Yes, and I plan to ask him. And no, if he doesn't get it, I won't reconcile. I think he is running out of time whether he realizes it or not. He has spent more time with us and has always let me know where he is. Is that enough? I don't know. Probably not. It is not the OC's fault but I don't think I will live the rest of my life, being excluded from parts of his life. I have thought about it and thought could I allow it for the next 4 years (if we make it that long) because I am not going to push the OC onto our daughter. And I think no because that is not right to me. If I am his wife, I am his wife 24/7. If he doesn't want to acknowledge me as his wife 24/7 then he needs to be single or marry someone else. I understand a lot of when and where he sees the OC is not completely in his control. I don't want to be the source of strife but it is getting closer to the time when I may just say you will either acknowledge me as my wife and either others will treat me with respect as your wife or you will limit your contact with them. He is in control of where and with whom he spends his time. I don't want to be overly involved with the OC. It is the total lack of respect for me that is being shown and my H is allowing it.
<<What does he expect ya'll to do? What is he saying? Who does he love...I mean truly love... to the depth of his being?>>
I don't think he loves himself which is the first step before you can truly love anyone else. He claims no love ever for OW. He stated in front of MC it was obvious he loved me. It isn't obvious to me and I told him so immediately. I think he is in denial and doesn't want to face the harsh reality of the consequences of his actions.
<<He's a very lucky man that after 2 A's and 2 OC you are even considering staying with him.>>
At times I think he realizes then at other times I think he is clueless.
<<You mentioned his 1st W...that she is bitter. Why is she bitter? He didn't cheat on her did he?
If he didn't please forgive me for asking. If he did...I hate to say this but you might need to consider you've got a serial betrayer on your hands. >>
Thought about the serial betrayer situation but I don't think it is the case. Our course I look back now and realize a lot of things I thought were true, weren't true. Anyway, I will try to briefly state some facts. I want everyone to know that in no way, shape or form is there any excuse for the behavior from me or anyone else regardless of childhood circumstances or age.
H and 1st W dated in high school. She got pregnant at 16, my step-d was born when her m was 17 and my H 18. They lived in seperated households with their parents until they married when step-daughter was 3 months old. H claims didn't really want to get married but felt pressured to do the right thing, who knows if there is any truth to this or not, anyway I believed it when he told me. I meet my H when he was 20 and I was 16. He lied and said he was divorced. First date we went out and we talk for hours and lost track of time. Yes, he made a pass at me and I told him no, take me home immediately, he apologized and we continued to talk. As he is dropping me off, W whom he angrily claimed was ex-w passed by and slams on the brakes. She comes to my door and asks 'why I was out with her H', with 18 month old step-daughter in her arms. I honestly told her he had lied and said he was divorced AND 'if he would cheat on you, he would cheat on me and I apologized and said I would have never have went out with him if I had known he was married'. Her response was 'you can have him, we are getting a divorce.'. I told him to stay away from me several times after that. And like an idiot, I went out with him once they seperated. We later moved in together and he later asked me to marry him. And like an idiot I said yes. So that is probably the source of ex-W's bitterness and why I didn't deal with his confession of the 1st ONS properly. I don't think I had resolved my own guilt then. Four years after we married, we bought a house. One year later our daughter was born. I became a Christian when I was 4 months pregnant. So I see the source for ex-W's bitterness but she has remained bitter to this day, even though she has married and had another child. She made it difficult for my H to visit my step-daughter. While we didn't exactly become friends, I have made my peace with her but it is obvious she is bitter toward my H still. When my step-daughter married 2 years ago, she wanted both parents and both step-parents to sit on the front pew. I told my step-d not to worry about me and that the only way she could offend me was not to invite me and that was too late because I already knew when and where the wedding was going to be. I said it didn't matter where I sat. Her M threatened not to come and my step-d stood up to her and said that would be her choice but she loved her and wanted her there. I ended up being more involved helping with the planning because it became obvious her m was not going to help her. I only stepped in when I was asked to help and went out of my way to make sure invitations and announcements met everyone's approval. The wedding was beautiful.
<<The odds say the problem isn't with all of you since y'all have only one thing in common. HIM. I hope for everybody's sake he steps up to the plate and decides the do the right thing for as many as he can.>>
I have thought this may be the reason why he still has not told his oldest d. I think he may think, he can no longer put any of the blame for the failure of his first marriage on his ex-W, because look--- he did the same thing to me, not once but twice (probably more than that). I never slept with him until after he was moved out of the house with his ex-W and thought he was divorced the first time we went out. The OW admits herself to sleeping with him first night they went out and knew he was married from the beginning and it made no difference to her. I actually think what he has done to me is worse, the lies are worse than the A. The concealment of the truth for years is worse than the sexual or emotional contact. The willingness to further risk his marriage without a paternity test then and now, is worse than the A.
I realize to stay or go really isn't about him anymore. It is about me. What do I want to do? How much more time am I willing to give him? What is required for me to stay? What is best for our daughter? How will I determine if he is truly repentant? In my eyes, he divorced me in his heart years ago. We are working on reconcilation now. Reconcilation takes two. I can not and will not do it alone. What will be enough for me? How will I ever truly know he is staying because he loves me and not for financial reasons or because he is afraid to be on his own?
Ann,
I agree that your decision should NOT be based on what your daughter wants but what YOU want and what you decide to do her feelings are your responsibility too but they are also your H's responsibility and...Your H isn't willing to deal with the mess he has made.
Regardless of what you decide to do your daughters need your support and ability to vent and get all their hurt out....they need to learn that not all men are spineless or hurt their family...and if men do have A's it has nothing to do with them or lack of love for them...Trusting will be a big issue for your 14 yr old and her sister will also suffer trust issues too.
Keep talking to her about her feelings...she has a lot stored up...she knew long before you did that she may have had a OC in her life...she was protecting you for some years...
<<Keep talking to her about her feelings...she has a lot stored up...she knew long before you did that she may have had a OC in her life...she was protecting you for some years...>>
Thanks I will continue to talk to her. That is what hurts so much. Me, being clueless and our daughter protecting me,when it is supposed to be the other way around, I am supposed to protect her.
Today, I asked my H if he was planning on doing anything for the 9 year old boy. His birthday is tommorrow and my H had not mentioned anything. My H had called me at work this morning to see if I had heard from the realtor today. I had, we are in contract now for the house. I am going to the bank tommorrow. Anyway, that is when I had asked him. I didn't verify where he went on Sat morning for a couple of hours and by Sunday my mind was racing thinking he had probably lied to me. He probably didn't go work on the car hauler, he probably went to see the OC at her house which is off-limit. He has agreed to never set foot in that house again. He can pick up and drop the OC, like normal people do. Anyway, he said he was thinking about taking him out for his birthday tomorrow but he realized our d has an indoor soccer game that evening, he said he may take off work early to do something with the OC so that he will be able to make it to our d's soccer game.
Then he said, he had been thinking. I now realize I am going to have to learn to not answer quickly and always just say give me some time to think about it. Anyway, he said he was thinking about asking if he could get the kids next time our daughter and I were out of town and being allowed to bring them to our house. I said after not really thinking, I didn't have a problem with that. He said he was thinking about asking and just seeing if he would be allowed. I said the OW will probably say only if I am not there and then I don't know what she will say if you tell her I am out of town.
Then after I got off the phone and was replying to an e-mailed my step-d had sent me about a house her and her H looked at this weekend, I realized that I should not have said yes so quickly. I called my H's cell phone back (I knew he was already at work and usually turned his phone off, right before he got off the phone he told me he was pulling into work) and left a message. Basically I apologized and that the more I thought about it, I think I am only OK with it if it happens after our step-d is told. I don't think it has to be before she meets them but I don't want her to ever know that I was agreeable to them coming to our house without her knowing. My H still doesn't know she knows because he has never made an effort to tell her. I agreed to not tell my H that my step-d found out so she could have some time to deal with it privately before she ever faced him. He will probably be mad, when he does finally decided to tell her and he finds out how she found out because of my carelessness, but I am not going to worry about that. It never would have happened the way it did if he had been a man and told her himself. Anyway, I digress.
Also, when I thought about it, I thought when the time comes I think our d needs to be aware of it. She may not want the OC in her room without her there. I have to say I would have to respect her wishes and her privacy on that one if that is the case. I wouldn't encourage it but if she asked for her door to remain locked I would understand. I don't have any plans on going out of town soon but I may travel some in the summer for work. Our d always had the option to go with me.
I want to say one I don't think anyone could rightfully expect me to be acceptable of this because the right way would be for them to be introduced to me and go from there. I don't feel I am compromising too much though by agreeing if my step-d knows that it would be OK with me. It is not the OC's fault.
Although I don't know the OW that well, I predict she will want to know where the house is and may have the nerve to ask to see our house before she allows the OC there. She is a mother and if she didn't I think I may think even less of her than I do now. Anyway, I thought about it and the phrase "when hell freezes over" is what comes to my mind as far as her setting foot in my house or even setting foot in my driveway for that matter when I am not there. I have no problem with it if I am there. So I think I need to tell my H he needs to ask way in advance, way before I go out of town and the boundaries need to be made clear. I plan to go out of town in March but our daughter will not be going with me then. This won't even be an issue until sometime this summer or this fall. I just want to think completely through it and be sure I have considered all the what ifs. I don't want to go back on my word. The older OC has already made comments she would never come to our house because of me and she is 16 and she may say the same even if I am out of town. Who knows. It would not be my responsibility.
I asked my H if the OW had called him and he still insists she hasn't, even though he says he is very suprised she didn't call him after I left the letter for the older OC and told her it was there as a courtesy. I told him I think the reason she hasn't called is because she chose not to even tell the OC about it and if she called and said something to you, you might say something to the OC and then she may be questioned what letter.
Well Ann, I certainly can't give you direct advice but I'll tell you what I would do in your situation. I wouldn't want someone in my house when I am gone if they can't come or wouldn't want to when I'm there. That would bother me. You don't know the things this OW tells her kids about you but from the sound of it, they don't think highly of you because of what their mom has told them sadly. Not that any of that is true but just the same. What if they are feeling vengeful toward you while they are in your house? I would have issues with that. I would be happy that my H was at least checking with me first, got to give him credit for that but will he respect your wishes when you are gone?
<<Well Ann, I certainly can't give you direct advice but I'll tell you what I would do in your situation. I wouldn't want someone in my house when I am gone if they can't come or wouldn't want to when I'm there. That would bother me. You don't know the things this OW tells her kids about you but from the sound of it, they don't think highly of you because of what their mom has told them sadly. Not that any of that is true but just the same. What if they are feeling vengeful toward you while they are in your house? I would have issues with that. I would be happy that my H was at least checking with me first, got to give him credit for that but will he respect your wishes when you are gone? >>
Charlie,
I certainly know what you mean by not wanting someone in your house while you are not there. This would really be a big step for my h in trying to act responsible, actually taking these OC and being the only supervision. My understanding is that he was always under the watchful eye of OW or OW's mother when he visited in secret and since that time, other than the one time he took the 16 year old OC out to dinner for her birthday, his parents have also been there to supervise. I think the 10 year old boy would not present a problem regardless of what he has been told about me, one because of his age and two because he is a boy. My concern would be the 16 year old girl. She is a girl and is old enough to do spiteful things. I am not saying that she would but I think you must consider who has raised her and that she has been told a bunch of lies about me. But I am not too worried about that. Anything extremely important to me (keepsakes from my great grandmother, etc) I had already considered removing or securing in a locked area. When I take this precaution, anything that the OC could be vengeful and try to tear up could be easily replaced. Besides, I will be suprised if the OW even allows this. I don't claim to know her very well because I have only spoke to her on the phone 4 times in my life and have never seen her, but if I had to guess, I don't think she could handle it. Especially if she were to find out that the deed will be in my name and my daughters name. Not that I plan on telling anyone but it is public record and anyone can go to the court house. Before this, I was considering asking my H not to tell anyone where we moved to unless they had a reason to come to our house (that would mean none of my ILs would need to know, in 19 years, they have only visited our home less than 10 times, even though my MIL once a week drives past it to visit one of her friends from high school). My FIL has stopped showing up Sat morning expecting my H to go somewhere with him. I don't think anyone will both us at our new house, I just simply think it is none of some peoples business. I was going to say, the OC are allowed her, so it is none of the OWs business where we move to, if my ILs visited it would probably be just one time to be nosy and then you can guarantee her mouth would tell everyone. I want peace and quiet and I don't want anyone to know where I live. I think I am still going to tell my H this and tell him, I don't necessarily want to be like this, but could he at least give me a couple of months to enjoy the seclusion.
Yes, it is a big step for my H to ask first. Especially since he has done this in advance before he even knows I am going out of town compared to just going to try and visit the OC during the day today and not tell me or tell me after the fact or wait until this morning to tell me. I have tried to explain to him the after the fact or no giving me enough time to process what he is doing before it happens is what causes me the problem. When he didn't tell me until after the fact, I automatically question, did he talk to the OW, did he really visit with her, is this just a backup story he is creating in case someone saw him and it gets back to me. Not enough notice hurts because sometimes I had been planning something and I think it shows lack of considerate. I don't know if he would have told me the day before if I had not ask him and that bothers me. I don't want to have to ask in order to know what is going on. I am going to tell him I still feel excluded from his life because I think if I don't ask, I won't know.
I think I will be able to determine if he respects my wishes or not and if he doesn't, it makes it easier to kick him out.
How much more could he possibly hurt me? Sleep with the harlot again. I really don't think that would hurt worse if it happened, I am not over it happening at all to begin with yet. It would only make it clearer for me that he was to hit the road and not look back. Right now, although, there is a lot more he could and should be doing, I have to give him credit for the things he is doing and not doing.
Not that I am all that concerned with appearances because I am not and that is not my motivation for saying the OC were welcome in our home to begin with but I have considered what is my H seeing. So far other than the initial pain, anguish and anger, that still happens sometimes but I have a better control over myself when it does, I think he sees love, caring, and an attempt to forgive and understand from me. On the other hand, what does he see from the "decent person" and "good mother" that he thought never would cause him any trouble and at least one of the OC that he thought was so innocent and wouldn't never be mean toward anyone even if they weren't nice to her, but hatred, selfishness and the unwillingness to accept responsibility, understand, forgive and respect his decisions. Whether he is actually grasping this or not I don't know.
Another thing I don't think he has thought about and I don't know if I should even mention. Does he realize how painful it might be for the 16 year old girl to come to our home, family portraits on the wall, our daughter's wedding picture with my H and I, both of our daughter's picture taken together when the were part of the wedding part when my mother remarried and everything? Not to mention, this new house is in an area known for its snobbish reputation. Not everyone who lives there is a snob and I have friends who live in the area. It is in the same school district where the older OC goes to high school and I am sure she is bound to know people who also live in this area and the odds are these are the teenagers with name brand everything and drive the most expensive cars to school. I am buying this house as an investment because I have been able to buy it at 53% of its appraised value and I think the change of surrounding with be good for my daughter and I at least for the next couple of years. The home we live in now and have lived in for 15 years is a more modest home in a more modest community. I have consider if and when I see the new home for profit, I may at that time more back into our current home. We will be renting it out not selling it. Anyway I have thought about that but I don't know if I should mention it to him or not.
After really thinking about it, I don't have a problem with the OC being in my home without me there I am sure of it. It doesn't bother me. It is the OW who has no business every being anywhere near my house. The only acceptable time would be one time with me there if she wanted to see the home before she allowed her children to go there. And that isn't going to happen, not because of me, but the OW has got a major internal problem with me and I don't see her resolving it any time soon. The first step would be for her to accept responsibility for her own actions and she refuses to do that she chooses to blame me for her circumstances. Right now, she probably feels more like a fool than I ever have felt. Assuming what she alleges is the truth, she has had casual sex with a married man twice resulting in pregnancy. He didn't leave his w when the first child was born, he didn't leave his wife when the second w was born and he didn't leave his w, when she found out about the OC. He is probably never going to leave his w for her. She is grabbing tightly and trying to hold onto the control she thought she had over him for years. She has nothing more to bargain with or to hold over his head to get him to come there. And the more people know because her slander and her aunt's slander against me and telling that my H has 2 OC, the more people will realize her immoral actions and will wonder how could she agree for 17 years to be his mistress. Because even if the 2 ONS story is true, I'm sorry, no one is going to believe that. True or not, it only makes her look like she is trying to cover up her actions and claim it was an accident, twice, that she really didn't seek to break up my marriage.
Well I went on long enough but I did have another thought I wanted to run by everyone. My H alleges the 16 year old girl is no longer allowed to go to my MILs, allegedly because she allowed a boy to come over and visit. I question if this is the truth and I am suspicious that if the OW has forbid the 16 year old to go to my ILs anymore, she may have an ulterior motive which would be my H would have to start picking them up and again which would provide more chances to pressure him to come into the house, talk to her etc. So far, except for the time he picked up the girl for the b-day, and one time he picked the OC up with my FIL, and the agreed upon Christmas Eve visit at his parents, every time it has been my MIL & FIL who have picked them up and returned them. Am I being paranoid or does anyone else see what I think I am seeing?
I told my H it was preferable if possible if he could arrange to pick up the 10 year old boy from school today and then return him this evening. I didn't demand it, I just said it would be easier for me that way. I know through experience the pick up can take longer than the drop off and if he is not ready (deliberately or otherwise) it will be harder for my H to wait in the car, especially if the kids start saying dad, please come in for a minute while I get ready. After all they were used to him coming in and staying several hours each time. The OW is not above using the OC, I think she has done just that for years and thought about her self interest not about what would be best for them.
I feel like I have just returned from the dark side, the very dark side. I have posted some on ezboard's the other child site, hoping to maybe hear from some of the OC there and get a better insight into where they are coming from.
OW post there also, some have grown up and are taking responsibiltiy for their actions and some are clueless to what marriage is all about.
Anyway, does anyone think it would help if COM (children of marriage, I have learned it what that stands for) could have a safe area to talk to each other.
If so, I don't know how it would be accomplished, I don't think a board like this would be a good idea because there is no way to verify who is on the other end and I would not want any OW to have access to our d.
Maybe it would help, maybe it wouldn't if she would know that our children have went through similiar situations.
It would be nice if there was a group in your area for such a thing but I personally have never heard of it. Your right it could cause some problems for such a young girl if there were OC and OM/OW on the site. I'm not sure children are as capable as we are of choosing what is good and right and disgarding what is bad or not right. I'm not saying your D doesn't have a good head on her shoulders. I just think they are very impressionable at that age and could hear something that could hurt her more.
