Up until this morning I had been feeling very indifferent to my H and to whether or not he chooses to take the steps necessary for us to keep working on our marriage (since finding out almost 3 weeks ago now that even after intensive therapy in late January there has been some contact with OW regarding OC). I took that as a sign that I was finally able to face the facts and make a rational decision for myself and my future based on actions and facts, not just words and feelings and empty promises. Since this latest incident I ask H a couple times a week if he's gotten any messages or calls from OW. I really don't know why - I probably won't truly believe what he tells me anyway, and even he says that yes he has I'll be pissed that he didn't volunteer that information as soon as it happened. Anyway, I borrowed his car yesterday and found a letter he had received that day (based on the postmark). It had copies of medical reports and notice of future test dates related to OC (he's developmentally delayed and they are starting to do tests to find out just what's wrong), with just a handwritten note from OW saying "for your information". I put it back and didn't tell H I had seen it. Last night I asked again if OW had tried to contact him recently and he said "no", yet another lie right to my face without batting an eye. I thought I handled it very well, didn't get emotional over it, and took it as just another firm example of why I feel he hasn't really changed his behavior. Before bed I told him that I was afraid that he was trying to convince himself that if he was the "perfect" husband in all other areas and as long as he wasn't sleeping with OW that it would be ok for him to have contact with her and not tell me. I told him very clearly that was not acceptable to me - that it was like repairing a car to make it look great but not putting any gas in it - looks great but totally useless. He has told me he has decided that he will not have any future contact with OC, and has told OW this (which I know happened because she also told me). I know he feels even more guilty about that now because of the medical issues, and that this is a tough decision for him. But I also know he made this mess and there is no solution that makes everybody feel good and he needs to just suck it up and move forward. I have offered to try to deal with us having visitation with OC but only if done with no contact between H and OW, but H says he doesn't want that. This morning for some reason, I am so emotional I feel like I'm back to square one. I was sitting at work this morning and burst into tears, and have just been sad all day. I love him so much, why won't he stop this????? Why can't he just grow up and tell me the truth? He did nothing wrong by receiving this letter, and in the past I have responded to his honesty by thanking him for telling me and not being upset over it. If he had just told me about it, it would be no big deal. But since he didn't tell me about it, I wonder why not? Because he still wants there to be secrets from me, because he wants to keep part of his life seperate from me, because he's afraid of my reaction, because he's so used to lying and hiding that it never occurred to him to just be honest???? I'm hoping with all my heart that tonight he tells me about the letter. But I know he won't, and I guess that's what hurts. It hurts to know that here's an instance in the here and now where he's making a choice to lie to me. If he's lying to me about that, what else is he still lying about? If he's lying to me now, when will it ever stop?
Looking back at what I've written I know why he won't "grow up and tell me the truth" - it's because he doesn't want to, and I can't make him want to. It's because through all this I've stayed and been there for him, and put my own pain aside to try and work through this and now he thinks that I've stayed this long so I'll always stay and he can keep doing what he wants and I'll just be there for him. I don't know if this is because he's selfish and unfeeling or because he just doesn't know how to be any other way. But does that even matter?
Can any of you see a side to this that I don't, or am I finally seeing things with brutal honesty?
[quote]I really don't know why - I probably won't truly believe what he tells me anyway, and even he says that yes he has I'll be pissed that he didn't volunteer that information as soon as it happened.[/quote]
You ask, or at least I ask from time to time, because in my H's case he was guilty of major lies of omission, he told lies to but mostly he omitted important facts and sometimes I think I have to ask so it won't be able to slip by as a lie of omission. And then like you I think, will I truly be able to believe him anyway. I don't know.
[quote]I have offered to try to deal with us having visitation with OC but only if done with no contact between H and OW, but H says he doesn't want that.[/quote]
Has he said why he doesn't want c with the child? Whatever the reason, I encourage you to focus on yourself and your m and not to be too concern about visitation at this stage. You have so much to deal with now.
[quote]I love him so much, why won't he stop this????? Why can't he just grow up and tell me the truth? He did nothing wrong by receiving this letter, and in the past I have responded to his honesty by thanking him for telling me and not being upset over it. If he had just told me about it, it would be no big deal. But since he didn't tell me about it, I wonder why not? Because he still wants there to be secrets from me, because he wants to keep part of his life seperate from me, because he's afraid of my reaction, because he's so used to lying and hiding that it never occurred to him to just be honest???? I'm hoping with all my heart that tonight he tells me about the letter. But I know he won't, and I guess that's what hurts.[/quote]
I think it is wise that you are able to wait and patiently see if he will tell you about the letter. I don't have that strength and probably couldn't do it. Why? That is the $64 million question. I wish I had the answers. Other than the letter, has everything else been going well? You will probably need to confront him eventually.
[quote]Can any of you see a side to this that I don't, or am I finally seeing things with brutal honesty? [/quote]
Playing the devils advocate here, do you think he may be justifying in his mind, he didn't speak to the OW or he didn't contact her and trying to justify away the letter since it only had to due with the child? I am not saying that would be right even if that was what he was doing.
Not that it is an excuse, because there is no excuse, but I think that often when people get involved with a, they lose some of the ability to think logically and reason very well. Even after it is over. If you don't think he is still in a r, or have c to restart the r again, maybe you can give him more time. I don't know. Have you specifically asked HAS SHE CONTACTED YOU?
Not that it would really matter, because he should have told you about the letter as soon as he received it.
Take care of yourself
Ann
This message has been edited by robbedof16years on Apr 5, 2006 3:55 PM
Yes, the same thought crossed my mind that he is trying to rationalize this as an event that he doesn't "have" to mention. But I'm not making that excuse for him anymore - I have plainly said time and again that I want to be told if she contacts or tries to contact you in any way shape or form for any reason. It doesn't really matter now how he chooses to twist and interpret that to suit his needs. Like you, there were so many lies by ommission that I feel like I have to ask just the right question at just the right time to have any hope of an honest answer. That's no way to live.
He hasn't gone into a lot of detail as to why he has chosen no contact now. That is my preference and has been from the beginning - I truly want nothing to do with OC but have offered to give it an honest effort if H really wants to, and really would do my best not to treat the OC poorly. I don't think he ever wanted or intended to be a "dad" to OC and has only seen him so far out of guilt or obligation. I want to clarify that OW said she was on the pill when she got pregnant (how many guys have heard that one?) and he had always been clear (both before and during her pregnancy) with her that he did not want a child with her (even she agrees that is the case). Yes, he could have protected himself by using condoms instead of trusting her to do the right thing, but that was yet another in a string of poor choices he made.
I feel like I could give H time to come to terms with things and work through all the feelings he must be feeling about OC if he would just be honest about having those feelings. But everytime I think I see a real change in him, or some personal growth, something happens to tell me that nothing's really changed.
Update on all this. Wednesday night H and are were having what I thought was a very positive discussion about OW/OC and me explaining that I can only imagine how the recent medical issues regarding OC must be running through his mind, etc. I explained again how very important is was for him to tell me about any and all contact, by phone, mail, e-mail, smoke signal, carrier pigeon, etc. I explained to him that at the moment I can't say that I either trust or distrust him, only that I am trying to give him every opportunity to earn my trust. This seemed to hurt him, and he was at first a little indignant with the idea of having to "earn" anything but I felt like he understood a little of what I meant. Then I asked again, point blank, has there been any contact from OW. He looked straight at me and said no. I just smiled and shook my head. After a few minutes I said, well what about the letter you got yesterday? Surprisingly he didn't deny there was a letter (I know its really stupid but he has tried that before), but used the excuse that it was only about OC so he didn't think that "counted". I told him that was a lie - either to himself or to me, but a lie none the less - that he knew it "counted". A little while later he came back and apologized for lying, said that he knew when he did it that it wasn't right but that it was his first instinct. I asked what has really changed in all this time then if he could still look me in the eye and lie? He said he felt a change inside him because before he would just not care and be mad that I even asked, but that now he felt guilty and stupid for having done it. I told him that my fear is that my strength and patience for all this will wear out before he gets to where he needs to be. Last night I had come home sick from work, and he laid in bed with me talking and rubbing my head. It was so nice to just be with him that way. He said that he knows he lies to "protect" me, because he doesn't want to cause me any more pain. And I do believe that to be true and not just an excuse. It dawned on me that over the last 30+ years he has learned that when you love somebody you don't tell them things that could hurt them, and it's going to take him some time to unlearn this behavior. I can't remember if I shared this before or not, but when he was 12 and his mom was dying of cancer nobody told him how serious it was and that she was dying. Nobody let him go see her at the end to say goodbye, and when she died everybody cleaned up the pieces and went on like she had never existed. That is how his entire childhood played out - if its not pleasant, don't talk about it. I tried to explain to him that hearing that OW contacted him doesn't hurt me anymore. That the thought of being lied to and having secrets between them is what hurts. I'm trying so hard to be patient with him as he goes through this personal growth, but as I've said so often lately I'm getting tired of it. I just hope he realizes before its too late that he doesn't have to spend the rest of his life in lies and deception, that he has a chance to be happy but that it will take real effort for him to get ther. I know I can't make him understand that, but any thoughts on anything I can do to help him be in the frame of mind to get it on his own?
>>>...any thoughts on anything I can do to help him be in the frame of mind to get it on his own?<<<
Yes...continue to make it "safe" for him to tell you these things. Your explanation to him that deceit is more damaging to you both than the thought of her contacting him is to you was the perfect thing to say to him. You must however continue to reassure him through your actions that whatever he tells you won't be "taken out on him" in any way.
When I was especially "raw" earlier on, I would ask my wife detailed questions, which she immediately answered honestly and thoroughly. At the time I would listen and not react...but the pain of what I had learned would eat away at me over the course of hours or even days until I would subconsciously start "punishing" her for what she had told me. It may have been subtle at times, not so subtle other times, but as I think back on it now, it more often than not triggered a particularly bad day, which slowly taught my wife that telling me the truth resulted in more trauma for her.
At one point after all this, I caught my wife in a lie similar to that of yuor husband's when she had accessed a chat program through her e-mail account...the same one on which I discovered her affair whilst chatting with her online "friend" with who she was sharing more intimate secrets than she was with me, and who she swore NC to me after discovery of her "other" affair. She had unconsciously clicked on the program and quickly got out of it when she realized what she had done, but when I shut the computer down that night, it froze up because that program was having trouble shutting off. I discovered she was on it because of that anomaly, and I asked her if she had accessed it, to which she looked me in the eye, swore on the lives of our children that she hadn't. When I confronted her with the evidence, she broke down...literally melted because she was so afraid of the way I would react. It was a good lesson for me, but I STILL didn't learn from it at the time, and continued to punish her - consciously and subconsciously - after that in similar situations. I was so damaged from the new lie, and how flawlessly it was executed, that my pain and anger were all I wanted to see. I get it now, but it was tough...IMPOSSIBLE to see then.
As much as we want our WS's to suffer, this type of behavior is only destructive...especially because we BS's can't understand the turmoil they are going through at the same time. No, it doesn't sound fair to think about our WS's pain and turmoil, but the reality is, they're human too - apparently a little more "human" than we are, otherwise they wouldn't have put our relationship in this mess with their horrible mistake - and their behavior towards us is a direct result of how we react to them.
Make it safe for him to tell you the truth. Make him love you so much - by loving him - that he doesn't want to think in any other way because he knows you deserve it and you will both grow stronger because of it.
Great idea to just love the WS so much. On the other hand, it can backfire & you can just get used again.Maybe the motto should be "Be nice but be smart"!!
<<<<I feel like I could give H time to come to terms with things and work through all the feelings he must be feeling about OC if he would just be honest about having those feelings. But everytime I think I see a real change in him, or some personal growth, something happens to tell me that nothing's really changed.>>>>
I feel the same way and it is so hard and it gets harder each day. I haven't even caught my h in another lie yet, but I feel like it is destined to happen. Not necessarily a lie of commission but lies of ommission. He has still yet to answer some of the questions that I need answered. Some I have let go and they don't make a difference, but others I believe I deserve an honest answer and I don't remember doesn't cut it.
It is so hard to fight the feelings of distrust. And I wonder like you, how long is it going to take and is it going to take longer than I am going to be willing to give.
I feel the same way! Isn't it strange how they "don't remember"? Wonder if it's early dementia?!I am almost to the point where I would just as soon not be with my H.Because of the A & lies I don't see how I can love him the way I did. I also will never look at our relationship as being wonderful & I don't feel the same way about him.Sometimes I wonder,"Why settle for something(my marriage) that has turned out to be so damaged.He signed on the dotted line but didn't stick to the agreement. We had talked so much about honesty before we got married & had talked about adultry & both of us were on the same page.Guess he just chose a different book!
<<<As much as we want our WS's to suffer, this type of behavior is only destructive...especially because we BS's can't understand the turmoil they are going through at the same time. No, it doesn't sound fair to think about our WS's pain and turmoil, but the reality is, they're human too - apparently a little more "human" than we are, otherwise they wouldn't have put our relationship in this mess with their horrible mistake - and their behavior towards us is a direct result of how we react to them.>>>
I am just now getting this, at the same time I am realizing that I will be okay no matter what – does that make sense? I am setting up boundaries, and at the same time I am realizing that my H is human and very definitely capable of making huge mistakes, as have I. I think that through this process we will both have a better understanding of who we are, individually and as a couple. We’re still new in the process, but I’m having waves of understanding. Due to, in large part, the counsel here.
When I read Tex’s very poignant post of his feelings after the revenge A, I felt a wave of sympathy. The first. My H told me tonight that he feels like a total loser. He meant it. I know my waves of anger have blindsided him. The triggers for me have been immense lately and I have lashed out.
Now I am asking what it is I really want and what am I willing to do to get there without losing myself? I am still trying to answer that question. Hopefully we won’t lose us in the meantime.
<<<My H told me tonight that he feels like a total loser.>>>
I felt the same way. The thing is as someone mentioned in another thread: "feelings" do NOT equal "fact". Just because he feels like a loser doesn't mean he is. The fact is: he is not a loser.
Ask him if he's having a difficult time coming to grips of exactly how much pain he HAS caused you because you DO love him...more than he thought you did...or that he thought he deserved. I'd be interested to know what his answer is.
I'm going to go wayyyyyyyyyy out on a limb here. I could be totally off base but if I'm wrong then that's one less thing to consider.
How did he feel about himself before the A? Self-loathing? Maybe...a loser? By having an A did he literally show you what he's kept bottled up and how he really feels about himself? " I'm a loser. Do YOU see that now? I can't hide how I feel about myself anymore."
If its anything remotely like that then I would suggest IC. Because the next question would be WHY does he feel that way? Childhood? Not meeting their own or someone else's expectations etc.?
Now this is strange and maybe twisted logic. I'm doing something terrible and this OP still accepts me. We're engaging at the lowest common denominator. Me. Strange huh?
Like I stated I could be way out in left field with this but what the heck...was worth a mention.
Regards,
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Apr 8, 2006 1:28 PM
<<<How did he feel about himself before the A? Self-loathing? Maybe...a loser?>>>
My H’s upbringing was not the greatest. His dad was emotionally abusive, highly critical. His mother was emotionally absent. He was in business with his dad, they had a fight one day, minutes later he watched his dad die a horrible death. His dad had never taken care of my H in the will, his mother liquidated the business, gave my H the same amount of severance pay she gave the hired help, and seven months after they buried his dad, she married a bum. Literally, a man with no job. My H’s dad left a multi-million dollar estate and his mother has almost gone through it all.
My H started all over and has done well for himself, but he’s had major issues with his mom…and his dad. He, in my opinion, has always tried to prove himself to his dad.
But why, Tex, would you have an A to validate what you believe you are?? I am a survivor of losing my virginity to date rape, was sexually abused as a child, engaged to a man, got pregnant and man left. If he thought he was a loser, what did that make me?? I thought my H and I were soul mates, on the same page, turning toward each other. Perhaps my upbringing gave me a shield of sorts. I had loving, supportive parents. Just thinking out loud…
My H respects you and reads all your posts. He’s been shut down the last several days. I hope he gets back on.
<<<If he thought he was a loser, what did that make me??>>>
Dear Lore, you are turning this back onto you. It makes you a survivor. How he feels/felt about himself has nothing to do with you.
<<<He was in business with his dad, they had a fight one day,minutes later he watched his dad die a horrible death>>>
Has he dealt with that? Does he hold himself responsible in some way?
<<<His mother was emotionally absent>>>
Does he seek approval from other females because of the way his ma treated him?
These are questions he needs to answer Lore. I know they are hard to face. If he is battling past demons he might need time to digest and process what happened. Ask him. Does he need time? If he is just coming to grips with his childhood that is a very painful thing as you know.
Regards,
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Apr 8, 2006 5:45 PM
<<<Dear Lore, you are turning this back onto you. It makes you a survivor. How he feels/felt about himself has nothing to do with you.>>>
You are absolutely right. And I hate the “pull yourself up from the bootstraps” mentality. I guess that is what I have been doing.
My H has dealt with nothing. He stuffs everything. He drinks to cope. Don’t get me wrong. He’s not a sloshy drunk, works hard and “functions”. But wow, when he drinks…he’ll cross major lines. Last night for instance… I think he probably does seek approval from other females because of his mother. She’s a narcissistic piece of work. I had never thought of that.
He detailed all of our vehicles yesterday because he doesn’t think anyone else does a good enough job. My D had a friend, his sister and mother come over for dinner last night. H was the natural charmer/flirt. He asked the sister for a picture of her mother and her new haircut (sister is a beautician and is going to try something new on her mother). When they left I said it was waaay inappropriate. H went off and started displacing. He said he worked his butt off while I sat around all day. I guess my grocery shopping, cleaning, making meals, sending B/D gifts to HIS family members, exercising for an hour, paying bills, is sitting on my butt. He called our son – first time they’ve talked since S found out. But he had been drinking so it was easy. He trashed me to our S. I was numb with shock. So was our S. I told my H – “this is the cheater man”. He was. I had done nothing to provoke him except challenge him on the picture incident. He left and spent the night at his office. That’s what he says. And…he blames me. Our S called me back and said, “Dad needs help”.
He definitely needs IC. We have yet to find a good counselor. I think all of the crap from his past is catching up with him. I wonder if I am strong enough to go through it with him. He has hurt me so deeply. It’s more than just about the A. He gets verbally abusive. When he’s good, he’s very, very good. When he’s bad, he’s horrid. My C love him very much, but they’ve asked me why I am staying.
This is something you and H are gonna have to figure out Lore. We all have our own journey through this. Maybe a good IC for you like Carol is doing will help you figure out what path you want to take. This needs to come within YOU.
Tex - are you secretly in my living room at night? You so hit the nail on the head about WS feelings of being a loser. I've felt from the beginning that some of this A mess is almost like his way of testing me, of trying to show me just how rotten a person he is and waiting to see if I'll stick around. When I stay, its like he tries harder to show how rotten he is which makes no sense to me since my natural reaction would be to show the other person that their patience and love will be rewarded by me trying to be a better person. But I guess there's the rub in all this - we don't think the same way and need to try to understand why the other thinks as they do. I have always attributed his behavior to the fact that his mom died when he was so young - that Freudian idea of the first woman you loved,and who loved you, left you so that must make you a terrible human being that no other woman could possibly love. So he doubts my love, tries to prove to me that I can't possibly love him, and even tries to make other women love him. I have even explained my "theory" to H. He used to totally deny it, but not too long ago he admitted that he could see the part about him continuing to push me to see how long I'd stay or how much I'd put up with. I so wish he would get IC to work all that out - it must be such a sad, demoralizing way to live. This ties back to what Bob said about trying to show WS how much you love them and try to make it safe for them to share. But until H feels worthy of being loved I don't think I can make him feel that way. Again, hard for me because I'm a "fixer" and get frustrated by things I don't have control of and can't fix. I'm doing my best to love and support H through all this. I have so many solutions as to how he can end contact with OW regarding OC but am hesitant to share them because he needs to take control of this and deal with it himself, and I need to stop stepping in to clean up his messes. I think it would be so much easier for him to make those types of decisions if he would put time and effort into working out feelings and definite plans regarding OC. I can only imagine the guilt he is going through over this. I so strongly feel that he has no moral obligation to the OC - he didn't want him, believed OW when she said she was using B/C, told OW when she first found out she was pregnant that he didn't want her to have the baby, etc. If he was a woman he would have made different decisions along the way and the OC either wouldn't exist or would have been up for adoption. But it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what he thinks and I have no idea how to help him see this as I do. OW sent him a text message Saturday. Her newest game has been about shoes for the OC - he needs special shoes for his physical therapy. She left a message about a week ago asking if H would buy them. He called her on Friday (which he told me about)and she said she would take care of buying them. Then on Saturday she text'd him and asked if he would pay half. He has not responded to her and as of yesterday didn't know how he would respond. At this point I'd like to send her a damn check of my own for the shoes just to make her go away. But I know it would just be something else next time. I want to tell H to tell her that's what he pays child support for, but I held back and didn't. Does anyone have a magic wand to pass around to make things right and good for everybody????
Lore, I hope RW and Quinn will respond to you. (RW already responded to your H on Open.)
It seems clear that there are three in your marriage: you, him, and the bottle. That's a "special case" that many of us can't really help you with. I'm sorry that's the case.
