I'm the type of person who likes to know everything so I can make a decision and move on. I have to have all of the facts, details ect. If I don't have all of the facts to move on (limbo) it drives me absolutely crazy trying to fill in the cracks myself.

My H of 10 years has been having an A for the past 5 months and as of a month ago moved into his own apartment. He says he's not sure he wants to reconcile especially if it doesn't 'feel' right. He says he cannot even look me in the eye and feel comfortable with me anymore but he still loves me.

He will not admit to having a full blown A with the woman he works with but I know deep in my heart he has actually had a PA with her. Why else would he be acting this way? Perhaps I'm drawing conclusions because he refuses to really talk about her and what happened between them. I believe the A is still going on and that he's currently in the 'fog' stage. I cannot move forward with Divorce or even reconcilation until he either 1) decides the marriage is worth saving or 2) decides he wants to be with her and not reconcile. Either way the decision is in his hands. It's been like this for over 5 months and I fear I'm going to go crazy. For the past few weeks I have been focusing inward and the things I cannot control (his decision and him) and trying to find a way to acheive some sort of peace. He's been calling me every couple of days to make small talk but refuses to talk about our future. It's like he wants my companionship but not enough to try and make things work. It's so confusing... If I bring it up he says he doesn't want to talk about it.

How do I get him past the 'fog' stage or do you even believe he's in this stage? I've read about the NC rules and feel I should try this but fear that I will be playing games and pushing him farther away. I feel like I'm being held hostage with no end in sight. The man I married would not do this to me and I have some sort of hope that after going through the fog he will return. In my mind the marriage is worth saving, but in the meantime, I just don't know what I'm supposed to do? I keep myself busy, force myself to eat ect... but nothing is helping!!!

I cannot stand the fact that he would be willing to continue to hurt me like this. I read a book called "It's called a breakup because it's broken" and in this book it tells you if your partner says he's not sure he wants the relationship to move forward that's just as good as saying it's over but he doesn't have the guts to say it. Do you think this is what he's doing to me in some passive agressive way?

Please help, I don't know what to do.

Karen

Howdy Karen,

<<<How do I get him past the 'fog' stage or do you even believe he's in this stage? >>>

Right now he has no motivation to get past any stage if indeed that's what's happening. Why? Because he still has contact with you. You may not be living with him but you are still "there". Those "maybe's, I'm not sure, etc."...don't they hurt? He is playing because stated bluntly...he can.

Hopefully you have been reading here enough to know you can't control anything he does. You can...however control how you respond to it.

He doesn't know what he wants? How long does he expect you to wait? He'll drag this out for however long YOU let him. In the meantime you are in limbo. How selfish is that on his part?

This is about you and your healing. Right now regardless of all the BS he is tossing your way...he is gone. How is he helping you? By playing some cruel game? Don't play it Karen. If he's not sure want he wants them let him see what it's like without you. Give yourself a chance to see life without him. Is it gonna hurt? You betcha. Will you feel lost? Yep. Slowly you will begin to realize there IS a life without him...a good life in time. If y'all decide to reconcile in the future then you both know there's alot of hard work on both sides. Right now...this second...he needs to know life DOES go on without him being center stage or even in it.

You need to focus on you, not him . Since when did he become this all powerful being that gets to decide how your life goes? He doesn't. YOU and only YOU decide that. You aren't pushing him away Karen. Oh he might try that line when he sees you moving on. Stop focusing on him...focus on you. Do something for you. If you don't make yourself number 1 then nobody else will.

He's got you so confused you are trying to find out what he's thinking. You can't know that. Only he knows. If he wanted you to know he'd tell you.

Stop Karen. Just stop. He needs to win YOU back, not vice versa. If he isn't giving it 100%...then you DO know everything you need to know.

Regards,

Tex

"He doesn't know what he wants? How long does he expect you to wait? He'll drag this out for however long YOU let him. In the meantime you are in limbo. How selfish is that on his part?"

You are right it's very selfish. I asked him how long he expected me to wait for him and he said "I cannot tell you that you should wait for me or move on because I simply don't know what to do" So do I take that as a "I want you to move on"? Does he do this to me intentionally or is it a subconcious/selfish act?

I understand and agree with everything you've said about moving on and thinking/controlling myself but how do I do that when I cannot even control my own actions and thoughts? I tell myself I'm going to stay away from him and not talk to him when he calls on the phone but then I find myself feeling sorry for him. Why? I don't know... I guess there's a part of me that's so scared he's never coming back that I cannot even have self respect for myself. Shouldn't I be flaming MAD at him for doing this to me? Yes! Some days I am but then I go right back to telling myself that I have to do everything in my power to save my marriage. I know it takes two.... God, as I read this message I sound more and more pathetic every day. I used to have confidence and self esteem but it feels like he took it with him when he moved out. How can I stay away from him when I cannot even control my own emotions?

Karen

Breaking away from an unremorseful spouse is never easy, especially when they play that question mark card. What if? Well ya know what Karen, turn that question around. What if he came to you? What if he was faithful? What if he was actually a husband in every sense of the word? Stop making the questions about you and make it about him.

You feel sorry for him... why? He has to actually take care of himself? You were/are his wife, not his mother. He's a big boy, not a baby. Your role has change in his eyes. Fill what's missing. i wanna play but then YOU are there. Gee I'm blessed because he's letting me save him. Screw that crap. You can't. He needs to save himself. You save yourself Karen.

As far as your emotions. Feel them. Acknowledge them. Doesn't mean you have to act on them. Control Karen..control. You can't control them because you are so busy focusing on him.

He's playing you because he knows you will wait. You want him, you feel sorry because well...he might have to actually take care of himself. Maybe you used to do that and its a loss of control for you. He knows where Mc'D's is. He doesn't know if he wants you to be his mama and wife...so stop. Stop Karen. You are a woman, you are a person... define those things. What do they mean for you? In your defination...does he as a man, as a husband, as a father fit into that? Don't you expect more for yourself? If you have children...do you want them thinking this is ok? If you DO have kids...what if you sent them there? Has he considered he might have to be a fulltime parent? I doubt it. He gets to play husband and he gets to play dad. He either is, or he isn't. When you are ready...make a stand.

Regards,

Tex

I am so sorry to see where you are at. I sort of was in a similar place. My wife of 20 years had told me that she felt toward me the way your H feels toward you. Only after I moved out (at her insistence), she still continued to say the same stuff. I finally ran telephone and computer checks to find out she had been having an A with a guy from her gym.

I am not telling you to do what I did (checking) just to be prepared if you do find he has been having A with the women you spoke of. Wish I had known about this site that day....and in the hellish days after.

Karen-

I am deeply sorry for your pain and the way your husband is acting.

I am sorry you married an immature person who has not taken his wedding vows or life promises seriously.

But what Tex has said, and what you have told yourself is absolutely true. Find yourself. Find your strength.

If you log onto "survivinginfidelity.com" you will find information on a course of action called 180.

It might be right for you.

Good luck. I am pulling fro you.

Jay

Thank you to all that replied to my message. I do appreciate all of your support. Tex, I think you are completely correct and I have decided to just cut him off and take care of myself. If he truly loved me, he wouldn't be putting me through this right now. I will limit all conversations to finances and the kids and leave behind everything else.

I am feeling much better today. Just another day on the roller coaster ride of emotions. I go from horrible sadness for the loss of our relationship to angry and scared. I have been divorced before him and don't quite understand my emotions as I've never felt this way before. Perhaps I didn't love my X the way I love my current husband, I don't know. It will take time for all of this to sink in and what pisses me off today is that my husband apparently has been contemplating this and has already had plenty of time to digest. It's still too fresh in my mind I guess.

I want to have my self respect back and learn not to be bitter about this. I've gone through alcohol addiction and it isn't anything compared to what I'm going through now. Perhaps it's just the loss of what I thought would be the rest of my life relationship or scared that I will never find another person who will love me, I don't know. In the meantime, I guess it's natural to just have all of these emotions so I will deal with it and try and keep myself busy in the meantime.

Thanks again!
Karen

Karen

Your right, he has had plenty of time to think about it. I hope you take Tex's excellent advice - it's really good.

When my ex first cheated on me (or the first I knew about anyway) although I insisted that he see a C (he wouldn't) I still nearly begged him back. I even thought I was pitiful back then but now I know that I was just scared to death of raising my children alone, worried about he affects on them and feared that financially I wouldn't be anywhere near where I was with my ex. I did love him, but my love for him was wanning since he treated me so poorly during his A and he had an addiction that had been a problem for a couple years before that. The sad part is that while we are feeling pitiful and wanting them back in our lives, I'm willing to bet we may appear that way to the ex as well. Is that appealing? Probably not, even though they caused it. When they are in the throws of an A, do they even think of that? No.

I would heed your own intuition about what he is doing now. I think we are often more right than we realize when a spouse is cheating or continuing to cheat. As a matter of fact, after being here for several years, I don't remember seeing one person who thought their spouse was still cheating, to find out later that they weren't. Hang in there, things do improve.

The big thing that helped improve things for me was not engaging when he said things that would start arguments. An example of this is when my ex starts complaining about how tired he is from doing his Aikido (SP?) or kick ball (his extracurricular activities) when he won't even make an attempt to see his children more often. He hasn't seen them for almost 2 weeks right now and when he starts complaining about how tired he is from doing all this fun stuff that he chooses, I get pissed off and have actually said things before like "I wish I could take Aikido or kick ball" and we only end up in a big argument with him defending why he is such an ass and saying that I could do it. That is a fricken joke. What would I do with the kids? Does he do these things with the kids? How would I get their homework done with them every night and also take them to Tae Kwon Do 3 times a week. Our special needs son would make it difficult and he knows it. He could come to see his children more. I feel like cussing him out but I've been working real hard to not say a word when he complains, now I just say "uh huh" and I feel much better. If I do argue I know it will engage him in an argument and it only hurts me. He is such a selfish ass and will never realize how bad he is. He will see the kids tonight because it is his weekend.

Charlie

Charlie, thanks for your nice note. How long have you and H been separated or divorced? Do you always have hopes of reconciliation? Is he still having his A with OW? I'm also very concerned for my children. He doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with them anymore! I mean he says hi to them but he doesn't call them or ask to spend any time with them since he's moved out. It's only been 4 weeks, but come on! They are older but still very scared and I try to give them reassurance.

This is all too new to me and I don't know what etiquet (sp) to have right now. I asked him to leave because he wouldn't have NC with the OW and continued to text message her right under my nose. After about a week I wrote him a letter telling him that I wanted to work on our marriage and I wanted him to come home and work on it together. He in turn decided to get an appartment. I again asked him to come home and he told me he wasn't going to come home if the 'feelings' weren't right. He said he is scared that we will try and reconcile and these feelings won't change for him and he'll end up spending the rest of his life with me without having feelings. Again he says he doesn't know what to do. Part of me thinks I should have NC with him at all until he comes to his senses but we cannot do that b/c of the kids and the finances. I read info about 180 and it seems realistic but if I put it into place feels like I would be playing games. I've decided to try it until the end of the month and see how things pan out.

Take care,
Karen

Karen

<How long have you and H been separated or divorced?>

Two years.

<Do you always have hopes of reconciliation?>

Oh, heck no. That only lasted a few months and then I decided I wouldn't let the schmuck ruin my life. LOL I came to the conclusion (with a great C and this group) that I was far better off without someone who would disrespect me and care so little for me. He was still lying and had had even more A's that I never knew about. That alone made me realize that I didn't want someone who I would always wonder exactly when I was going to get AIDS or something else from him. I didn't want to be with someone so dishonest nor let my children learn to be as dishonest as him.

<Is he still having his A with OW?>

No, they stopped after I caught them and called her H but they did chat for a few months more on the phone and still lied to both of us. I found out later that she told my ex that she wanted to stay with her H.

"He doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with them anymore! I mean he says hi to them but he doesn't call them or ask to spend any time with them since he's moved out. It's only been 4 weeks, but come on!"

Here are a few things I've read about and I've followed them to a "T" with my children. A few of them help them and some of them help me a great deal.

You don't have to cover for your ex spouse when he won't come to get the children. If they ask why they don't see dad/mom much, just tell them they need to ask dad/mom that question. Just make sure they know that they are loved and you won't leave them too. Mine thought that was going to happen at first and I had to reassure them that I wouldn't dare leave them. At first, I made up excuses for my ex like he had to work late or whatever but then I realized that I should not have to lie for my ex. If the kids want to know, they can ask him.

Never talk badly about your spouse to your children or in front of him. (even if he is a schmuck)

Don't engage his ignorant comments, it only hurts you and gives him something to argue with you for. It also hurts the children if you end up arguing in front of them. If he doesn't want them, you can't "make" him want them. Remember this one thing that I still remind myself of OFTEN: If your ex spouse didn't listen to you when you were married (or didn't care), it isn't likely that he will now that you are divorced. Don't engage him. This one took so long for me to get and, on occasion, I still forget it and do it but I'm getting much better at it. It only brings arguements and, with mine, he will never think of others first - it isn't in his nature.

<I asked him to leave because he wouldn't have NC with the OW and continued to text message her right under my nose.>

That was a smart move.

<After about a week I wrote him a letter telling him that I wanted to work on our marriage and I wanted him to come home and work on it together. He in turn decided to get an apartment.>

Karen, it seems he is answering you right there. The sad thing is that they will often let you sit on the side so if things don't work out with the OW, he will have somewhere to go. Do you really want that? I didn't. As a matter of fact, if he had asked to get back with me after a few months of him being out of the house, I had already comes to terms with things and decided I didn't want a lying, cheating jerk anymore - I could find better and would have rather moved in with family to finish my education. I didn't have to but I figured that would be better.

< again asked him to come home and he told me he wasn't going to come home if the 'feelings' weren't right.>

I don't pretend to know him, but what he may have really meant was "I want to keep you waiting in case things don't work out with OW." Sadly, when they are sleeping with someone else, how can they "feel" for their spouse?

<He said he is scared that we will try and reconcile and these feelings won't change for him and he'll end up spending the rest of his life with me without having feelings.>

That seems like an excuse that we hear all the time around here. He may be trying to justify his A with the fact that something is wrong with you. The problem with that whole scenario is that he is comparing a fantasy with you right now. That is hard to compete with. If has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that he does not or did not share any hard marital responsibilities with the OW yet, only possibly sex, fun, the high of hiding something, no bills, no children, etc. How can a wife or husband compare with that fantasy? They can't really.

<Part of me thinks I should have NC with him at all until he comes to his senses but we cannot do that b/c of the kids and the finances.>

No, because of the kids he will be in your life for a long time likely. What can help you though is to NOT talk about anything personal with him AT ALL!!!! Nothing except the children. Try it and you'll see how much better it can help you feel. When you have a decent separation agreement written up things should improve if you aren't engaging him. I hope for your sake that you can work out an agreement (if you haven't already) without going to court. It makes things much easier. Some people here have been to hell and back and through bankruptcy before they get through that whole mess.

Charlie

Howdy Karen,

Charlie as usual makes some great points. Obviously if there are kids involved there has to be contact for their sake. Regardless of what kind of spouse someone may be they are still a parent and the kids deserve both parents if possible. Of course there are always exceptions ...abusers etc. I'm mainly talking about the spouses who state their H or W was at least a good parent. I think for alot of folks spouse and parent are one word...aka...family. When there is a split... it becomes two words. That's hard to digest. Its difficult for some people to see one without the other. Afterall if they were such a great parent they wouldn't have done this right? That just goes to show exactly why it had nothing to do with you...or the children.

My interpretation of the 180 list is not NC...but rather contact under YOUR conditions. You dictate the terms. If you can't at the moment then consider cutting contact except dealing with the kids...financial matters...you get the drift.

Make a plan you honestly feel you can live with long term. He'll wait you out and will be right there during a weak moment because that's been the M.O...so in his mind why should it change now? A BS is emotional and an unremorseful spouse knows that...and will play it for all its worth...on THEIR terms. Is it calculated? Probably but I doubt in the evil way we think of. Cruelty? Maybe. Selfish? Hell yeah.

How many of us were like Linus's blanklet? Their safe place? A soft place to land? They run to us when it gets hard? We confuse that with love...well it's at least not mutual love you invisioned or they would be YOUR blanket and soft place also right? Breaking that is hard for both...because well...that's always been the way it was. Not having a "role" in someone's life regardless of what it is can make for a real identity crisis. I'm the husband...wife...protector...defender...safety net, screw up...etc etc etc can leave folks feeling lost. Finding a new role in life is hard no bones about it especially if you've been the type to put every else's needs first. Putting yourself first...can feel kinda selfish.

Think of it this way....you deserve the best you have to offer. Everyone you care about deserves that also. You can't do that if you don't take care of yourself in the best possible way.

Stay strong Karen. You deserve it.

Regards,

Tex


Edited: typos