So here I am. Living with my husband in what feels like some drug induced nightmare. He's the one who strayed and is doing everything he can to keep this sinking ship together. When I don't feel like throwing an ax at his face, I'm putting forth an effort as well.

When looking at the future with us (should there actually be one) how does one remain in a marriage where they will NEVER trust their spouse again. Am I settling? Isnt' there something better than this? My belief is that if you don't have trust, you don't really have a relationship. So. . . . why bother? What's the point? Immediate personal comfort? Financial comfort? Do we stay with these people at all costs?

I've read a lot of posts and they're all running together for me right now but someone (might have been H2C) spoke to the whole concept of blind trust.

My therapist says not to base too much importance on marriage. Marriage goes away. People die, things go away, etc. etc. Ok so how do I plug back in and to what extent? Am I in? Am I out? Am I half way with him?

This isn't about keeping or losing ones autonomy. ALthough I suppose "being married" tends to add to the definition of who we are. It seems like there's got to be some sort of balancing act that takes place that's much more complicated with those of us who have spouses who are capable of dropping trou with those outside the marriage.

I don't have the faintest clue how to wrap my brain around that nor how it's accomplished.

Why do I ask? I'm looking for hope? I'm also looking to find out if my efforts will be futile in the end when there's no way for me to successfully play this balancing act. I'm already exhausted and can't imagine trying for another year only to find out I just can't pull it off.

I'm so terribly sorry to hear how your world has been ripped to the core. You talked about your sense of identity as being completely uprooted. Sadly, many of us know exactly what you are going through.

Can you ever trust again? That's an important question. The real answer is "yes and no" - not very helpful, is it? Like H2C pointed out, that blind trust many of us bought into can't be reclaimed. However, trust with boundaries is attainable again.

Will it work? That depends on so many things, but most importantly you and your WS. Signs that point to optimism include whether WS has cut off ALL contact with OW and is amenable to taking real action in healing (e.g., MC and/or IC; makes attempts to understand the pain you are feeling). Is WS open with the lies he used to tell? Do you think he is being honest now?

Relationships that have elements of emotional abuse, substance abuse, and/or violence are at higher risk for not reconciling.

EC, hang in there- take care of yourself. Give yourself permission to go through this harrowing, questioning, hating, numbing roller coaster. You mentioned being exhausted - please make sure you are giving yourself as much opportunity to rest as you can. This is exhausting work and no one here signed up for it- it came crashing in on us.

Take care,
Marie

EC

"When looking at the future with us (should there actually be one) how does one remain in a marriage where they will NEVER trust their spouse again. Am I settling? Isnt' there something better than this? My belief is that if you don't have trust, you don't really have a relationship. So. . . . why bother? What's the point? Immediate personal comfort? Financial comfort? Do we stay with these people at all costs?"

Many of us had these same questions when we were first exposed to our spouses A. I guess my biggest thoughts back then were:

What if I divorce my cheating spouse, eventually remarry and this new person cheats years later as well? I trusted my ex (H at the time) so much when I married him that I could imagine the same thing possibly happening again. I suppose there are two ways to look at these same questions though. What if you stay with your spouse and the same thing happens again?

For me, my ex could not keep up the long term honesty, I guess it was too difficult for him so he made up my mind for me, but I can tell you that a year after his A we were still trying and doing much better than immediately after my discovery of his A. "Time" does help and there is no hurry to end a marriage when you just aren't sure what to do. Just a thought.

Charlie

""""Why do I ask? I'm looking for hope? I'm also looking to find out if my efforts will be futile in the end when there's no way for me to successfully play this balancing act. I'm already exhausted and can't imagine trying for another year only to find out I just can't pull it off.""""

We all pretty much know how this feels in our own ways or circumstances. The thing is, it is just too soon to make a life altering decision. Yes, you could spend a couple of years working on your marriage only to discover that you will split up. But even then, you will be able to look back and say that you didn't throw in the towel too early. You gave your marriage a chance to recover and you can feel good about that. End it too early and you will always wonder.

And, like Charlie said about finding another guy. At least right now you know what you have. You are flooded with emotions from the betrayal but you know what you have. You could find another guy and it may end up being the same thing over again or worse. It is said that 6 out of 10 guys will cheat on their wives. Those are your odds and its unfortunate. That question about settling will linger for a while.

If you can seriously believe that your H is remorseful and is doing all he can then you know what you have and chances are if he spends this much energy making ammends then he won't ever cheat again. That's a good thing to know even though it hurts like hell right now.

Wish you well,

H2C

>>When I don't feel like throwing an ax at his face, I'm putting forth an effort as well....

Why do I ask? I'm looking for hope? I'm also looking to find out if my efforts will be futile in the end when there's no way for me to successfully play this balancing act. I'm already exhausted and can't imagine trying for another year only to find out I just can't pull it off.<<

This is where some form of cognitive behavioral therapy might help. If I'm reading you right, you're trying to force yourself to accept what your therapist has said ("don't put too much stock in marriage") when you know that part of the issue for you is that you did (and maybe still do) want that complete relationship with full trust.

Only time and a more relaxed state of mind will allow you to get yourself wrapped around that thorny issue.

I found myself (for several years of "hanging in there") wondering why I was so angry. I also found myself in the endless "WHY" and "WHAT IF" loops that led to emotional exhaustion (and the anger/rage you expressed with the "axe" comment). So for me, the "solution" was finding a way out of those looping thoughts that led me back into a heightened state of sensitivity and anxiety.

For me the technique was pretty simple. It's called "thought-stopping", and it works like this:

At first, I would allow myself a few seconds or a minute of building anxiety. When that familiar tightness in my belly started, I knew I was feeling tense and anxious, and that it was time to stop. I was always alone when this stuff overtook me, often driving, so I'd just say loudly "STOP", "NO", and try consciously to think about something else, something positive, something pleasant, anything. Sometimes it took a couple of tries to get out of the anxiety loop.

Eventually the thoughts stopped coming at me and I was able to spend that emotional energy in a positive way. I was able to start seeing my situation for what it was, and to start thinking clearly about where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do.

That was the first big step toward really learning to let go, to understanding that fighting for a marriage is exactly the wrong thing to do, and that love really means openness and partnership, and that sometimes, truly accepting someone as he or she really is means letting go of any hope of a renewed relationship.

HOW you do all this is face forward and calmly figure out what you want and what you can live with. Unfortunately it does take a lot of time and effort to get to a place where you are calm enough to do that.

Good luck.

Chris.

A gentle reminder that there are 3 prongs to recovery and for a while they may not be in sinc:
Yours - his - and the marriage.

...When looking at the future with us (should there actually be one) how does one remain in a marriage where they will NEVER trust their spouse again. ...

Your question is not that unusual - I too was looking for the final resolution - I wanted to know, and wanted to know then since I felt I was drowning, in total shock and needed hope as a life jacket.

But what I learned is to take each day as it came - with the only certainty that the sun was going to rise again.

Our story is pretty pedestrian in that it was a 2nd marriage for both of us, H had an affair but the "twist" was the day my H disclosed he admitted being the father of the 6 months child who along with his mother had been introduced to our 'family of choice' and that nuclear bomb leveled our marriage.

NEVER is a long time - trust comes back slowly when nutured by the offender. It it a long and hard road but a necessary one if you are able to find the foundation of your marriage under all the rubbles. We have the tendency to attribute blind trust to our spouse but as Cory mentioned thru his years on the forum: "I don't trust myself a 100% how can I trust another 100%?" "Trust but verify" was taught to us by the original founder of this board (Peggy Vaughan)and our mentor during those dark, dark times.

One moment at a time, one day at a time and slowly but steadily you will regain YOUR balance.

Yes, I know it is easy for me to say but we all have walked in your shoes, crawled thru the tunnel of
despair trusting the ones who were still there for us on the site to wait for us at the other side for as long as it took us to come out in the light of recovery. Bare in mind recovery is not linear - at times you will feel as if you stepped back a few steps - one step ahead and a few back is the unfortunate 'speed' of our travel but keep going never loose sight of your own recovery.

So post, read and educate yourself and know we are here. And above all - believe recovery with or without a spouse is possible.

Wishing your peace and the strength to find it.



And as you walk you make your path Kat

"When looking at the future with us (should there actually be one) how does one remain in a marriage where they will NEVER trust their spouse again. Am I settling? Isnt' there something better than this? My belief is that if you don't have trust, you don't really have a relationship. So. . . . why bother? What's the point? Immediate personal comfort? Financial comfort? Do we stay with these people at all costs?"

As Kat said, never is a long time. My d-day was 5 years ago this July 2nd, and like you, I felt that same way about my wife and the trust issue. I can tell you that you have to heal you, he as to help and he has to understand what lead him to stray so it will never happen again. He has to be totally committed to you and you alone and he has to prove that to you daily.

Then you have to heal the relationship, in fact I think you will find that you have to let go of what was. Your relationship as you knew it in the past is dead, what you have to do is find the materials (trust, love, communication and effort) to lay a new foundation for the future. Perhaps the most important part of laying that foundation is total honesty, meaning you have to know whatever details you need to know, the affair has to be out in the open between the two of you.

Through total honesty you can lay a solid foundation to build anew, through totally honest communication you will find trust returns. It will be a slow process, you need to build a solid relationship, placing one brick at a time on the foundation. Honesty is the mortar that bonds each brick to the foundation. None of this can be done as fast as you want it done. It takes time, a lot of time.

At this point in our recovery I can tell you that I once again trust my wife. I believe her love for me is total, and that she has felt and still does feel pain over the devastation she brought to us and our relationship. I don’t have blind trust, I never will again and no one should, not even before an affair or other act.

As for your questions about “Immediate personal comfort? Financial comfort? Do we stay with these people at all costs?”

I might suggest that only you can find the answers to those questions. Each of us as individuals are unique, each of our relationships are just as unique. Each of us through the wisdom of experience from others here on the board, possibly family, and friends had to find the answer to those same questions.

Ask yourself where you want to be in five years, who you want to be, and who you want to be with? As yourself if you love him enough to work through the recovery process. Right now you should not expect yourself to find trust in him, he should be location transparent, so should his email, voicemail, ect.

It takes time and effort to find answers to the questions you have. It takes time and effort to heal yourself to the point you can begin healing the relationship. Most of us here couldn’t really concentrate on rebuilding a relationship until somewhere between the 18 and 30 month time frame. Up to that point more time and effort was spent on ourselves verses the relationship.

You will learn that time is your best friend and your worst enemy as nothing happens as fast as you want it to. That is a good thing because it keeps us from rushing to solutions. I would suggest that you do some reading, the “Monogamy Myth” and “Not Just Friends” are good places to start.

None of this is easy, in my mind, I think the only thing more painful than dealing with an affair would be losing a child. We shouldn’t have to deal with an affair, and God help us, we should never have to deal with a child dying before we do.

Please don’t make life altering or rash decisions, most of the books and a lot of folks here recommend you not make that kind of decision for at least six months.

Good luck, and remember, this is a safe place to vent, to cry, or just to find understanding. We have walked the similar paths, dealt with potholes and obstacles on those paths, and had to make decisions about which path to follow when the path forks to the left and right.

Dave

Marie, Charlie 288, H2C, Chris 924, Kat and Dave:

I read all of your responses and there is SO much there to ponder and sit with for a bit. I really appreciate all your support and input.

My challenge is that I'm dealing with our second affair. We didn't handle the core issue the first time around because we were so busy trying to get over the tsunami that is betrayal. So, the orig. issue remained and was then compounded with my inability to let go of the anger and punish him for 6 years.

We painted over what should have been removed. Bottom line though is that my H has a problem. In 2001 we went through a year of therapy appointments that HE booked for us and now here we are again. Given his fathers behavior in his marriage, my H was essentially mentored to do this. Is this an excuse or reason for adultry - NO. But is does help explain why the possibility is higher.

He immediately cut off all contact with the other person and essentially said she wasn't even someone he would date. She just offered it up on a platter. H said it was a bandaid to what he REALLY wants and that's ME. But I won't give him ME. He's horribly remorseful, sad and constantly willing to listen to me rant and vent. These are good signs but as I said, "he's got a problem".

Along with all the things you all put in my bucketk to consider, I have to consider if he is even capable of changing this behavior.

Thanks again to all of you for the tremendous support you are giving. I will try to do the same on my better days.

All good things

I understand completely the issue you are dealing with, on September 9th of 2002 I discovered a second affair (actually the first one that happened) from 1997.

The one discovered in July was her second affair, and it was a double betrayal, it was with my (ex) best friend and fishing buddy. Now our time frames differ and the order of discovery differs. That being said, it hurt all over again.

When you hit the bottom of the barrel you have two choices, you can either go around and around (possibly looking for a corner to huddle in) or you can go up. Whether you choose to make the journey alone or together is not something I can give you advice on.

I can only pass on the choices I made, I was half way out of the barrel when I got knocked back into the bottom again. It wasn't the last time that I fell backwards, but eventually I found my way out. In my case it was do to my wife's efforts in helping me heal, her efforts in rebuilding our relationship, and in rebuilding trust. And believe me, I didn't make it easy for her, sometimes I was a complete ASS!!

She never gave up on me or us, she never for one moment stopped trying to prove to me how much she loved me.

You have some difficult choices, I hope that sharing our experiences on the paths we took, and still travel are helpful to you in making them.

Dave

Dave you're fabulous and thanks for sharing your story. It helps tremendously.

Here's my request of my WS. I've asked him to look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is this. There are people who are in unfulfilling relationships all over this planet. Some of those people are actually able to keep their clothes on and remain faithful to their spouses. I'm sure it eeks out in other ways but at least they don't ultimately betray their spouse. Some of those people choose not to go that route. My question is what is the makeup and dysfunction of an adulterer. If he can't do his homework and get to the bottom of that question,(how is it that I am even capable of this behavior) then I just can't hang out waiting for landmine number 3 to explode.

The WS says I love you more than anything and would do anything for you. Ok, I get that but the jekly side lies, shows up at a motel and bangs another woman. These two things are incongruent. The second actually renders the first statement useless to me. I've told him I don't want him to love me. I just want him to keep his "D" in his pants.

At any rate, how did you do the math on that one?

I really appreciate your story and need to hear more like yours to give me perspective. There are days where it's not horrible and days where I just want to beat the sh*! out of her and him. It's hard when rage takes over.

Take good care and thanks again.

Ah, the battle of the thinking and feelings sides.

Sandra, what is your "primary style" when approaching problems? Do you try hard to reason through things, or do you "follow your nose" and make your decision on what feels right?

Do you think your decision is ultimately a "thinking" or a "feeling" one?

Chris.

http://www.dearpeggy.com/question.html

And as you walk you make your path Kat

Sandra,

If he can't do his homework and get to the bottom of that question,(how is it that I am even capable of this behavior) then I just can't hang out waiting for landmine number 3 to explode.

Character, like love, is in many ways intangible, and therefore you can’t measure it like a pound of sugar. I guess for me I looked at my wife’s character. She grew up on a farm, her work ethics are beyond reproach. She had her first child at 16, and still managed to graduate high school with a 3.95 average. She married and had a second child, worked 26 hours a week while attending college and taking care of a baby and a two year old. She finished an Associates degree in 13 months with a 4.0 average.

So, she is smart, hard working, and coming from a farm background her common sense and values are very high. Her husband at the time cheated on her while she was pregnant with her second daughter and a child resulted. He continued to cheat and finally moved out. Having affairs was the last thing I would have expected or imagined that she could do. Having been cheated on, and also her character and values from her upbringing made the idea of her having an affair, much less two, impossible for me to believe and even harder to accept.

Pre affair, I had a part in the marriage not working. I had a quad bypass on December 7, 2000. I came home on oxygen on December 13th. On the 16th on of my brothers knocked on the door about 7 AM and my father had suffered a massive stroke. We lost him on December 23rd. As the oldest son, and the only one living in the same town as my mother I ended up helping her with all the things involved in settling his estate. I was on oxygen at the funeral. I realized later I never too time to deal with my grief, I also did not recover from the surgery like they told me I would pre surgery.

By September of 2001 I went into a depression, by December of 2001 my “buddy” had noticed and put the moves on my wife. Not lessening her involvement, but just stating the guy is a predator. This was his fourth or fifth affair on his wife in seven years and she had two revenge ones on him. We found this out from his wife after d-day.

Now I can’t take any blame for the affair, that was her selfishness, her bad judgment, ect. But I can take blame for my actions and shortcomings concerning the marriage before the affair.

All of us are human, we all have shortcomings and we all make mistakes in our lives. I won’t suggest that an affair is a mistake, it is a conscious decision for what ever the reasons the cheater justifies to themselves. What I am saying is our marriage had problems before the affair, actually before both affairs. My wife chose to handle them by stepping out of reality and the marriage and cheating. I withdrew from her the deeper I went into depression, neither of us dealt with the core issues in our marriage.

You have to look at all the factors and decide for yourself whether your going to “hang out waiting for landmine number 3 to explode” as you put it.

I wish you luck, recovery with or with out a spouse is a long journey. As you need to heal yourself first and then if you choose heal the relationship is a decision that only you can arrive at.

Dave

Chris:


My primary style when approaching problems is to reason through them. I look for things to add up. Almost like a math equation. I figure if I can understand the equation, that makes it easier for me to live with. I tend to overthink things in general and I'm a fixater as well. Yeah for me

Is this a thinking or feeling decision? I'd have to say it's 80% thinking and 20% feeling.

Dave:

Your personal stories are so very helpful. Sounds like some of the stuff in our stories run parallel. Our core issues were never dealt with either.

It's good to get perspective from someone who has weathered 2 as I have. Your wife and my husband have some of the same solid values and I suppose that's where I should start.

Looks like me and my husband both have our homework cut out for us.

Knowledge and truth is power - no?

Kat:

Thanks for the link. I've been reading it all day. Some really powerful information.

Sandra,

I tried going down the thinking road. I kept discovering that I was angry when I thought about my life and my relationship. Not just angry, BIG ANGRY.

A member of this board helped me over that hump by explaining that when stressed, we all fall back on our primary style of problem solving, either thinking or feeling.

The problem is, this isn't a puzzle or a math problem with one right answer. It is very difficult (speaking from experience) for an analytical person to move out of his/her comfort zone and confront the feelings that come to the surface after d-day. There is a subtle, but very important difference between burying or hiding one's feelings and "working through" them.

For me recovery started with simply acknowledging that "I feel (fill in blank)" and not trying to distract, cover, or hide from that fact. It was hard work for me to learn just to allow feelings to run...to feel sad, afraid, distracted, etc. for some period of time. Having suffered through a couple of bouts of depression in my adult life, I was always afraid of negative feelings. I thought they would lead down a slippery slope into the big black pit; that's not necessarily true, but that fear led me to suppress a lot of "stuff".

Harriet Lerner's book "The Dance of Anger" (and its sequel "Dance of..." books) helped me to understand that anger isn't a primary emotion. If I was angry, I was covering up feelings of sadness, or loss, or hurt, or fear. Once I learned to deal with those feelings constructively (by not burying them under a veneer of competence and mastery and logical approaches), I had gained the keys to letting go.

Sandra, it IS about how YOU feel (at least in part; it's also about what he does). Your feelings will change over time, but that doesn't mean they are unreliable. It just means that feelings change. I think that is why most of us would tell you to stay in your marriage for as long as possible. It's probably not good to make a life-altering decision based on feelings that change.

I guess I'm telling you (nicely, I hope) I finally learned to hold my thoughts and worked on my feelings to build a personal recovery. Only then did the true state of my marriage become clear to me. It's a sophisticated form of "fake it 'til you make it, or you don't", I guess.

Chris.

Thanks Chris
Very helpful and lots of truth.