We've been married for 15, 3 kids under 10, and my husband cheated now twice, once very early in our marriage and again just a couple of months ago. He left for a week, then wanted to come back and work on it. I worked on it, seeing a counselor, making our home a place that I thought he would want to come to, tried to keep in touch with him and converse more. He however, wasn't getting what he needed and decided to leave again, the day before my birthday, just to put a twist on things.
We talked about this before his leaving and I said what do you want me to tell our children about where you are on my birthday. He said he would come home early and take them shopping and we would celebrate my birthday. I'm really not sure that this is a good idea and I'm very tempted to tell him that we made other plans, just not sure how the kids would feel about it after he called twice tonight to make plans with them for it.
The biggest issue, as you probably saw in the title is that this girl works in his office. He says that her and her husband are working on their relationship and seeing a counselor but says that they have talked. I know that this was a bad sign and my counselor said right from the beginning that when people continue to work together it NEVER works out. I should have insisted more but that is a hard situation. My husband could either transfer to a place further away and travel back and forth or he could tell his boss and his boss could transfer her elsewhere. I'm certain he has had to get people out of these situations before. I need to set some ground rules with him if he even asks to come back. Does anyone ever really make progress by talking to the OW husband and could this help?
I've never really felt like he was trying to get me back. I feel very unloved.
Thanks for your help.

The problem is that it all becomes a very messy spider web. They have their damaged marriage. You have yours. The OW has her relationship with your H, her H has his angle on your H....this all adds up and then the kids finish it off.

If your motive for speaking to the OW's husband is to try and strategize a way to straighten those 2 cheater out it's completely out of your control. Your H and the OW took that away from both of you (betrayed partners).

I commend you for trying to make changes in yourself to keep him around, but he probably needs to do the work if he wants his family to make it through this. Not getting what he needs can and will likely be taken to a whole other level. When he loses his family, his home, damages many relationships, loses big money through divorce, loses his current standard of living, losses his affair partner(?)then he'll truly understand what it means to not be getting what he needs.

I am very sorry you are enduring this experience. It's awful.

RW

This story got so much crazier, when he came for my birthday and we celebrated as a family. Everything seemed so normal then he left for a meeting and said that he would be coming bck to spend the night. I almost fell over, here he left me 3 days ago and was back to spend the night. He said he did not want the kids to get confused and that he would bring them to school. I was speechless, and told him that I would think about it while he was at this meeting. I left a message on his phone saying that I did not think that this was a good idea and that the kids would just think that he had left before they awoke, as often happens. The roads were crazy from 10 inches of snow so he called and asked to stay. We talked for awhile and never did he indicate that he wanted to stay here for me, just the kids. I may have made a mistake but he stayed on the sofa, and did get up with our sick daughter during the night. I just can't believe that he thought he could just come and spend the night. I told him only that night and he could not do this unless he comes to a decision about us. He is going to come and trick or treat with them on Friday, but I'm just not sure if I should push him away until he decides what he wants to do about us or let him in and see that this could be all good. He did have the last 6 weeks to see that this is all good, however, and still decided to leave again. I wish that he would get some counseling, should I push that?

If you get individual or marriage counseling be very very careful about who you hire for that highly specialized job. It can be disastrous. It can also be helpful. Sometimes it doesn't change much. There are therapists/counselors out there who really shouldn't be doing post-affair counseling.

I wished that we'd found one who had the experience his/herself.

Go to www.dearpeggy.com and browse around her articles on this.

Sorry, meant this for another thread.

Make him leave until and if he gets his stuff together. It IS the BEST thing for the kids.

You are so vulnerable right now. Do not let him manage you!

Do you have someone you trust to talk to?

Dear Girlslife,

I agree with pat504.

I discovered my ex-wife's affair in 1999. I spent the next two years or so trying to think of everything that I could do to get our marriage back on track with little or no help from her (she treated me like dirt most of the time and continued her affair while being more careful to cover her tracks).

I do not regret trying to save my marriage (at that time, my sons were 9 and 12 years old). However, I now think that many of my actions hindered rather than helped.

Rather than going into a frenzy in an attempt to "fix" the problem, if I had to do it over again, I would try to do the opposite. That is, I would have done everything in my power to take care of myself and my children. I would have done everything in my power to do as little as possible to try to "fix" my (then) wife or our marriage. Of course, this is all much easier said than done.

To prevent myself from attempting to "fix" my (then) wife (and to fix my marriage), I would have tried to take some concrete steps. For example, I would have immediately contacted an attorney, not to pursue a divorce but to establish some type of joint custody arrangement as quickly as possible. I would have moved out of our house quickly and rented an apartment - as soon as it was convenient for me.

I would not have cajoled my (then) wife into attending joint marriage counseling. If she had wanted to purse joint counseling, I would have gone with her but I would have tried much, much harder not to initiate counseling myself.

I would have immediately explained our problem as simply and as calmly as possible to all of our friends and neighbors, to my coworkers her coworkers, to my family and to her family.

I would treat the discovery of my (then) wife's affair as if it were one of the most serious and damaging forms of trauma that could be inflicted on me. I would do everything possible to mitigate the damage, such as seeking counseling from an excellent best therapist, participating in a rigorous exercise program, frequent and regularly scheduled periods of relaxation (such as long slow walks in the park) etc.. I would take a vacation (perhaps a Caribbean cruise) alone and make it clear that my (then) wife would be entirely responsible for the care of our children while I was gone. I would have made it a top priority to minimize the impact of the affair on me. I would give this much more emphasis than "saving my marriage".

I would believe nothing that my (then) wife told me about her affair, her affair partner, or her affair partner's spouse without verification from a reliable source. People who have affairs stop telling the truth, especially to their spouse. They do not regain the ability to tell the truth quickly. In many cases, questioning an unfaithful spouse about their affair produces unreliable results. I have no excuse for assuming (after I discovered her affair) that my (then) wife was usually telling me the truth.

I would distance myself from my (then) wife as much as possible while attending to the needs of our children. I would treat her as kindly and gently as possible but I would limit my interactions with her to a large extent. Making appointments for the children with a dentist or doctor might be an exception. I would make plans for myself and my children and I would allow her to do the same.

I would try extremely hard to prevent myself from "taking care" of my (then) wife in any way, shape of form. I wouldn't even take phone messages for her. I would explain to my children what I was doing and why in a manner that was appropriate for their age. I would make no attempt to explain the them what my spouse was doing or why. I would leave that entirely to my spouse as far as possible. I would be very clear that I did not wish to discuss our marriage until I had some time to think about what I wanted to do (with a very heavy emphasis on the "I"). I would explain that a discussion of our marriage would not be possible now or in the future as long as he continued to have any contact with his affair partner. There would be no possibility of a discussion while he and his affair partner worked together.

Betrayed partners often are frantic to save their marriages. They often are willing to carry the entire burden of building a new marriage after an affair. Unfotunately, it is an impossible task. However, the commitment of the unfaithful partner to the marriage is in question (or should be). That commitment must be evaluated carefully over an extended period of time based on behavior. Verbal assurances are demonstrably useless.

After an affair, one of the betrayed partner's most difficult decisions involves whether he/she is willing to put in the time and energy that will be necessary to build a new marriage. Too often, that decision is made too quickly, with little thought, and without critical information. Trust can only be established (or re-established) by observing behavior over time. Most betrayed partners find this process very difficult because of their fervent hope that order can be restored to their lives quickly. Rapid reconciliation is accomplished only by ignoring the most important issues raised by an affair.

Betrayed spouses tend to overestimate their own ability to forge a reconciliation. Similarly, for a betrayed partner, it can be terrifying to fully appreciate how little influence they have over the fidelity of their spouse. As a results, the belief that a betrayed spouse is somehow partly responsible for an affair is widespread and deeply ingrained. A betrayed partner cannot control the decisions made my their spouses. Attempts to do so (which are common) are often counter-productive. By some strange marital calculus, an unfaithful partner is less likely to recommit to a marriage which their spouses seem desperate to save at all costs.

After an affair, a betrayed partner can feel incapable of taking control of decisions regarding their own behavior. Focusing on restoring a feeling of being capable and in control is probably far more helpful than focusing on the antics of an unfaithful spouse.

Marriage counselors often discourage betrayed partners from "throwing the bum out". In my humble opinion, this is often a mistake. Allowing an unfaithful partner to meet up with the consequences of their own actions is probably a much better idea.

"Focus on yourself" always seemed like good advice to me even though I wasn't sure what it meant. One of the things that means to me now is that I would take much more time to consider very carefully whether it was worth trying to "save my marriage". I would consider very carefully whether my (then) wife was beginning to demonstrate through her behavior that she was committed to our marriage. If she and her affair partner continued to work for the same outfit or if they continued to have any other kind of contact, I would not live with her. The health risks associated with sex would be far too great. Taking care of yourself means taking responsibility for your own health. Sharing that responsibility with an unfaithful partner should be avoided.

I could go on but the point seems clear enough. Treating an unfaithful partner kindly but firmly seems far more likely to produce good results than being mushy. I doubt that being hateful or spiteful would help much either, although it is probably inevitable to some extent. Trying to convince an unfaithful spouse to return to a marriage by being loving seems like a really bad idea to me. The soul of a betrayed spouse ought not to submit itself to continual injury.

Calmly and deliberately setting about increasing the distance from an unfaithful spouse seems to me to be much more likely to get good results with a minimum of additional damage to the betrayed spouse. At some point in the future, it might then be possible to allow an unfaithful spouse to try to "get me back".

All of this is very, very difficult to carry out. For most of us, it's much easier to chase our unfaithful spouses to the point of exhaustion (which the betrayed spouse will reach first).


Quinn

P.S. Affair Recovery Rule #1: People who have affairs stop telling the truth to their spouses. People who have affairs do not regain the ability to tell the truth quickly.

Ditto.

So true about telling lies. They generally begin the long chain of lies that results in crazy-making, and then in turn point the pathological finger at the betrayed spouse.

It's been crazy since I last wrote but you all are saying the same thing, we need space and he needs to make a decision and now is the time. You give me strength.
He has done this come home, leave again thing for two weeks and it is not working. I know that he is still seeing this girl and it has to stop or we have to stop.
I'm scared but I am going to try and put the distance between us and he can make plans with the kids.
I've heard of too many people that put too much time in trying to save the marriage when that should be up to the cheater.
He has no idea what he is giving up and he needs to see that to have a clear picture.
I'm debating the telling everyone what is going on thing as you mentioned, I need support and have told a few friends/family but it would be easier if everyone knew. I am not going to lie for him though, especially to the kids. How do you tell kids that will have no idea (because we hardly ever even fight) that we are having big enough problems that their father is moving out? It just breaks my heart.
I havn't slept in days, have to set some boundaries tonight!

I am so sorry you are going through this. I was going through it 10 years ago. A few days ago I just happened to drop in to look up old friends from the old days and ran across your post. The above folks are old friends of mine and they know. These folks have wonderful advice.



This is maybe the 2nd worst pain you can feel in life. Be glad it is not the 1st and DO NOT let this pig manipulate you in your pain. He has only one thing in mind and it is not you or your children. Understand that and embrase it so you can move on to deal with this pain and what is to come.



I am sorry if this is so direct, but I have been there, and what you need to understand is that that what you thought was true about your relationship is not true anymore. He doesn't care. He is about him. You need to be ALL about you and your children.



10 years later I am still with my husband. I wish I had left and taken my now 18 year old son with me. He would be much healthier.



I know how shattered you are, but you need to buck up; there are worst things in life.



Take care of your self.



Pat

THERE is the advice I needed so many years ago. Right there in Q/Bart's words.

But I would have whined that "I want my marriage to work. I don't believe in divorce when there are still kids at home." And I would have stayed angry at all my (then) wife wasn't doing instead of figuring out WHY I was angry. So strange...even the act of figuring out why I was angry helped me lose a good bit of the anger.

Then, I was finally able to let go.

Chris.

I wish I had that advice then, too.

So why were you angry?

I was angry that she wouldn't "get with the program" and fix things the way I thought they needed to be fixed.

(I thought I had "the high ground" and had a right to dictate terms.)

As Q/Bart says, I should have focused way more on me and on what I needed to do for myself. The real truth was: I couldn't live with things the way they were in my house. I made the mistake of believing that I could force her to change to suit me. When she didn't (and who would?) I got angry, and every little thing was "just one more thing" for me to be a martyr about.

Bad way to live. I was focused on the wrong person's life and choices.

Chris.

It's amazing how everyone starting writing at once and I've had all these emails to help me through this. The one consensus that you all seem to have is that he needed to leave and to figure things out.
I knew that this was what I needed also but he still claims that unless we he is here and we are trying to work on it then he gets further from coming back. This scares me. I wish we could work on it at counseling but he should be pushing it, not me.
It's so scary.
I also don't believe that divorce is the best choice when kids are involved but I deserve to be loved and will find someone to love me if he can't. I told him this.
So my counselor thinks he will need to do two things for this to work- address that she is still working in the same building as him and he needs to get counseling, either alone or with both of us.
I told him that I needed to know that the relationship had ended and that he would need to prove that to me- this is tricky but maybe by having me on the phone when he calls her to tell her. He just doesn't seem honest and/or ready to tell me anything about her and what they do or don't do. He said that they still talk and I said about what and he said "basic stuff" I told him that it wasn't fair that he still is talking to her about basic stuff. How would he feel if I was talking to a neighbor that I had had an affair with about "basic stuff."
For now, I have told him that he can have the kids on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. Last night was the first night he was away and he has plans for the weekend anyway, so I'm not sure there is much thinking time going on. The stuff he needs for the weekend is still here however, so am not sure how he plans to get that. Probably going to come and try and see the kids and get it. Is that fair, what do I do about these little drop byes that I predict will happen.
All of our friends are making holiday plans and other plans and emails come daily about what night is good for us, etc. I don't know when to tell people and when to tell the kids. Time will tell I guess.
Keep talking, I need advice. Thanks.

>> I wish we could work on it at counseling but he should be pushing it, not me.< <br>
Exactly. I dragged my X to three marriage counselors, spending boodles of cash and time. In each case, she was very reluctant and "had to be convinced". She made her disinterest obvious. In hindsight, I think she probably was that the counselor might figure out what she was up to. Oh ... and she countinued her affair while we were seeing counselor #1. At the same time she was telling counselor #1 that I was "trying to punish her". He bought it hook, line, and sinker (not his fault - she was THAT good at playing the injured party). In hindsight, the thing that I remember most was my gullibility. She played me like a drum. It never occurred to me that she (or anyone else) could be so cunning, manipulative, and deceitful. I guess I must have lived a sheltered life.

It is hard for me to believe that a counselor can help if one of two spouses isn't interested in working on a marriage. If your h isn't pushing counseling, you'll be on your own even if both of you are present in the room. From personal experience, I know that an unfaithful spouse can go through years of marriage counseling without ever participating in a meaningful way.

>>he still claims that unless he is here and we are trying to work on it then he gets further from coming back< <br>
Yep. He's getting that manipulation thing down pat. "If you don't do what I want, then you will be responsible for the failure of your marriage". It's straight out of the introductory guide to infidelity. The problem isn't his affair. The problem is how you respond to his affair. He will have to leave if you are "too demanding" or "too controlling". It is an excellent strategy because (a) it seems plausible and (b) defending against it is very, very difficult if you have recently discovered a partner's affair.

Figuring out who is responsible for what can be so difficult in the eye of the hurricane. One thing is certain - whether he comes back is entirely up to him although his extremely unlikely to admit that to himself, let alone anyone else.

>>He just doesn't seem honest and/or ready to tell me anything about her and what they do or don't do. He said that they still talk< <br>
That's why it is called "La La Land".

Continuing to "talk" to his girlfriend is cruel. Continuing to talk to his girlfriend while demanding that the two of you continue to live together is insane. The guy has lost his mind (which is common enough). Clearly, he is not able to take your interests (or his children's interests) into consideration. It will take time for him to come to his senses. More importantly, it will probably take time for you to realize exactly how bonkers he has become.

>>Probably going to come and try and see the kids and get it. Is that fair, what do I do about these little drop byes that I predict will happen< <br>
These were the questions that I had to keep asking myself again and again. Little by little, I figured out what I could tolerate and where I needed to draw the line. Drawing a line without going overboard is always tricky.

I would bet that most of the people who read your posts nod their heads while they read, because the recognize exactly what your h is up to and what it is doing to you. As for me, I hate that one more person has to go through this nonsense. There are no easy answers for any of us, of course. The eye of the hurricane is the eye of the hurricane. I just hope that you will keep trying to figure out what you want and need.

Take your holiday plans as an example. If you were to take no one else into consideration (not even your children), what would you want to do for the holidays. Be alone or with family or friends? What about your children? Would it best for them to be with both parents together? They are almost certain to sense that something is very wrong, even if they don't understand what they are sensing.

Another example is him dropping by unexpectedly. Is that good for you and for your children? Or is it simply good for him and the hell with the rest of you?

Q

My H gave in to my insistence on counseling once he moved back in again after the 3-week separation he used to make up his mind about what he wanted. We went once a week for 6 months and were 'graduated'. The therapist didn't think we'd make it. A success story!

Alcohol addiction never got much attention throughout that therapy. I can see now that the therapy was marinated in it. (Not a good idea).

Four years later....

His drinking increased. He added 3 physical attacks; one that was a close call. So on and so forth.

At some point he resumed the sneaky reunion with the affair partner. She and her husband had already completed their divorce, after 25 years of marriage and 3 kids, due to the affair.

I found out, served him divorce papers, and he returned to the same therapist in his brand new personal crisis. I believe the therapist helped him transition through it and into his new life along with the alcohol addiction. A success story?

I agree.

The best mode of action after discovery would be:

Acknowledge the magnitude of the trauma.
Get outside help and support.
Understand that the betraying spouse is not the place to look for that help.
Eat. Sleep. Try to reduce stress that soars off the charts to dangerous levels.
Retain an attorney
Reduce hysteria
Increase empowerment
Kindly and firmly match his/her emotional fracture with your own personal distance.
Let the spouse go.
If the spouse wants back, decide if you can lower your bar to that level or not.

Living in a relationship void of trust is like sleeping with the enemy.

Above was the best I could say.

RW...remember years ago when so many of us were seeking "the magic bullet" as if such a thing existed?

As RW wrote in her post above, the crucial factor is the one the betrayed spouse cannot control: the choice of the WS.

So many words on these boards are really about "how can I get my wife/husband to (fill in blank)?"

The real question is "how do I let go?". Let go of the hurt, let go of the partner, or both.

It takes years to sort out. Or, at least it took me years to sort out.

Chris.

You're right Chris.

Notice I have not written that (above) until nearly 10 years post d-day.

"Calmly and deliberately setting about increasing the distance from an unfaithful spouse seems to me to be much more likely to get good results with a minimum of additional damage to the betrayed spouse. At some point in the future, it might then be possible to allow an unfaithful spouse to try to "get me back"."



You know Quinn, I did what you described "at first" and kicked my ex out (changed the locks and said screw you basically); I know you know this and you're right that doing this got a differnt reaction from him than I expected - he begged to come home in two weeks saying he would do a list of things differently. I even did the emersing myself into taking care of myself i.e. working out hard, which helped more than anything could have.



There is a big "BUT" here: the major things that I COULD NOT change were his morals, ethical standards and behavior any more than I could fly and even though I feel I did the right thing back then, it still couldn't possibly give me the results that I really wanted at that time - to keep my marriage and family together and live happily ever after without the affairs, porn, and immature behavior.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that even doing the "right" thing in hindsight didn't change anything - not really. My ex may have wanted to get back together at one point, I'm not certain of that but his buddy did ask me if I would ever go back to him about two years after we split when a boyfriend of two years and I broke up. I suppose that was the closest I would ever know if he wanted me back. At that point I came to the realization that I didn't want him back anyway...maybe that is a little karma?



In hindsight Q, do you think acting differently could have saved you a few years of pain or that you would have had different results? For me, we got back together and I just dealt with 1 1/2 years of more lying so it didn't really help me except for a few months because I couldn't change "him".

Just a thought.



Charlie

Charlie,

I couldn't agree with you more. The chances of putting a marriage together after an affair are not great. There are no really good ways to do it - just a lot of so-so methods. I doubt that any of those methods have a high success rate. When I think about all of the things that could be done to improve the odds of saving a marriage, the approach that you took seems to me to be as good as it gets. It has the added benefit of being good for your self.

As it turned out, you didn't have very much to work with but you probably couldn't have known that at the time. I believe you when you say that working out hard helped more than anything you could have done. For many people, getting physically fit could be more important than dealing more effectively with an unfaithful spouse. Partly that's because getting fit has so many mental and physical benefits. Partly its because (IMHO) taking care of yourself is often more important than dealing with your marriage.

Yes, in hindsight, I could have spared myself some pain. Maybe a lot of pain. I did what I did because it was very important to me to save my marriage. That mattered more to me than just about anything else. But .... I didn't realize that I had so little control over whether my marriage got itself saved.

No, in hindsight, I don't think that I could have changed the outcome by doing things differently (although there are plenty of things that I regret). In hindsight, I believe that I could not have changed the outcome probably for the same reasons that you couldn't. "Changing myself" wouldn't have done the trick.

Perhaps it doesn't make much difference in the long run if you chase your spouse or if you "kick the bum out". Marriage counselors seem to agree that "kicking the bum out" reduces the chances that a marriage will survive. I just don't believe that.

In hindsight, I believe that the only way that our marriage could have been saved would have been for my X to change. At the time, I believed it was a mistake even to think in that way.

If you can't know what you want to know, then perhaps the best that you can do is to have some idea how much you don't know. But I'm beginning to sound like Donald the Rumsfeld.

Quinn

It is so refreshing to see people getting some response here.

This saved my life 10 years ago and I can't help but remember how it was when no one responded...Then it hardely ever happened. That's why I was wondering why the site has dwindled.

I'm back again, the original author of "workplace affair" and it just amazes me that everytime I check my email there is yet another message from this site. I have appreciated all the messages and advice. I have followed a lot of it.
My questions now for all of you are one, are you men or women?
Two, it seems that for some of you it worked out and you are still married. There just seems to be not a lot of good news and the feedback is really starting to depress me more than I already am. Is it that most of the people who check this site, are the partners of people that cheated, and therefore still are "mad" at the partners.
I still have questions and concerns everyday but I need some hope in all this.
I'm still trying to figure out what to tell the children when they wonder where their dad is. Him and I are making progress and he has opened up more than I ever suspected he would, finally giving me a little truth. I know that my husband still is in communication with the other women. I know he does not seem interested in counseling. I know that two major holidays are coming up. I know that he needs to feel the distance between what he is leaving behind if he chooses her and what we have created here.
I just don't know if and when to let him move back in, and what "requirements" I should push. I know that the one that really scares me is that they still work in the same building. Is it humanly possible to still work in the same building and stay away?
Did any of you do a "controlled separation" as they call it now? Did you actually make a contract for this time?
Did you tell people about your problems then get back together and have it work out?
Did telling your children have a lasting effect on them if it does work out?
Did they continue to wonder if?
Thanks.

"My questions now for all of you are one, are you men or women?"

Woman.

"Two, it seems that for some of you it worked out and you are still married. There just seems to be not a lot of good news and the feedback is really starting to depress me more than I already am."

I really understand this. The feedback is probably not what you want to hear. It certainly wasn't what I wanted to live. It is straight-up honest though and most of us here do not want to paint an overly optimistic picture simply because that's what others would like to hear. Some marriages make it to some degree. Many don't.

"Is it that most of the people who check this site, are the partners of people that cheated, and therefore still are "mad" at the partners."

There are members here who have several years of recovery forum interaction experiences with both sides of adultery. I would say, no.

"I still have questions and concerns everyday but I need some hope in all this."

We must have hope. It is our life-line. Hope can change form and still continue.

"I'm still trying to figure out what to tell the children when they wonder where their dad is. Him and I are making progress and he has opened up more than I ever suspected he would, finally giving me a little truth."

That is good. Although it sounds like crumbs when you, as his wife and mother of his children, deserve everything.

"I know that my husband still is in communication with the other women. I know he does not seem interested in counseling. I know that two major holidays are coming up. I know that he needs to feel the distance between what he is leaving behind if he chooses her and what we have created here."

I have seen marriages survive from where yours is at and worse. The crucial question can be - what will the marriage be after this? It takes a lot of special healing. With kids especially, I hope the marriage mends. Too bad he can't look years down the road and see how this fracture never ends. I call it the 'non-gift' that keeps on giving. He does not understand what it will be like. There will be grandchildren some day who will also be impacted by this.

"Is it humanly possible to still work in the same building and stay away?"

Some people move. Some people change jobs, change phone numbers, etc.

"Did you tell people about your problems then get back together and have it work out?"

People were told. It 'worked out' for 4 more years.

"Did telling your children have a lasting effect on them if it does work out? Did they continue to wonder if?"

I think age is big factor here. What to tell and when is tricky. I'd say, yes, it can have a life-long effect. If he strays and continues on with her, they will figure this all out in time. Overall

If you like, browse this resource list also for lots of good info.
http://www.network54.com/Index/54219

"My questions now for all of you are one, are you men or women? "

I'm female, Charlie has been my nickname for years.

"Two, it seems that for some of you it worked out and you are still married. There just seems to be not a lot of good news and the feedback is really starting to depress me more than I already am. Is it that most of the people who check this site, are the partners of people that cheated, and therefore still are "mad" at the partners."

I can't answer that question for everyone although I would tend to agree with RW. I know that I am no longer "mad" at my ex at all. I am happy with my life, I am quite happy we aren't married, I like his new wife even though we have differences, and I am able to get around both of them and am completely fine with it. I am far past "over" my kids dad. We even went trick or treating with the kids a few weeks ago and have done so the last 2 years with his new wife and her son.

"I'm still trying to figure out what to tell the children when they wonder where their dad is."

Also agree with RW on this that age is a huge factor and maturity. My son followed me around the house unknowingly when I was going through all this and so he knows more than I would have planned. He is now 12 (7 1/2 then) and is in a gifted class getting honor roll every time. I did get him in counseling because of our break up back then because he thought at that time that I would leave him too. We talked and talked about it and I also had to school involved and had him in a divorce group at school at that time. He knows about his dad being with another woman and that is it, because he asked me questions about it later on and I didn't want to lie. I told him his dad still loved him regardless of hurting me (he does). I will not ever put my kids in between us. He only needed counseling for a few months and has been doing fantastic ever since. My other son (13)needed some talking to as well (not as affected as the younger one was) but is special needs and doesn't speak (he signs) so counseling wasn't as much of an option but I did discuss a LOT with him. He is also doing really well and is happy.

"Him and I are making progress and he has opened up more than I ever suspected he would, finally giving me a little truth."

Trickling out slowly is a process we've all dealt with. You will likely find out that it is still trickeling out even a year later, or more.

"I know that my husband still is in communication with the other women. I know he does not seem interested in counseling."

Mine didn't want counseling either but did go for 12 weeks because I insisted. When the counselor finally called me in, it became apparent that my ex told her everything that I had done wrong and nothing about what CAUSED me to do the things he did i.e. his excessive usage of porn, his constant lying, cheating, etc. He did tell about "the" affair but not every A. He lied to her too and that was a big sign that he would never change.

The two things you list above are two MAJOR red flags that his affair is still going on. He doesn't want to see a counselor because he probably knows he doesn't want to change anything and likely believes he is still doing nothing wrong. That is a huge sign (to me, after all these years of seeing people go through it) that he has no intention on changing anything about himself. He is blaming you, somehow (and they all do it) for HIS affair. It can't be your fault, it was HIS choice and if there are things you didn't think were perfect about your marriage, then you could justify that you "should" have cheated - but I'm assuming you didn't. Most of us that have been cheated on realized later after initial affair recovery that there were things we didn't like either but we didn't choose an affair to make it better.

"I know that two major holidays are coming up. I know that he needs to feel the distance between what he is leaving behind if he chooses her and what we have created here.
I just don't know if and when to let him move back in, and what "requirements" I should push."

That should be based on what you feel "you" need.

"I know that the one that really scares me is that they still work in the same building. Is it humanly possible to still work in the same building and stay away?"

I would think it isn't but who knows. If it were me, I would insist he look for a new job. I know that isn't always easy because of money and especially our economy but... There wouldn't be any choice to my spouse if we were to make it work. It's his job to start working for your trust. You have to make the decision yourself.

"Did any of you do a "controlled separation" as they call it now? Did you actually make a contract for this time?"

I didn't but we did have a list of about 6 things that he needed to agree he could and would change in order to move back in. He did them for a while but it didn't last and that is when our marriage ended.

"Did you tell people about your problems then get back together and have it work out?"

I told people and have always felt that when someone does something wrong, that they should face their consequences. At first I didn't tell some people but when these people showed up at my house and I had tears or red eyes, I couldn't hide it.

"Did telling your children have a lasting effect on them if it does work out?"

Telling my son didn't affect him negatively but only the one without the disability knows and he asked me, I didn't tell him about his dad's A. They still care about their dad but I have done everything in my power not to trash their dad in front of them because I knew it would be the wrong thing. I didn't do that for my ex, I did that for my kids.

Charlie

Now when I was a young boy, at the age of five
My mother said I was, gonna be the greatest man alive
But now I'm a man, way past 21
Want you to believe me baby, I had lot's of fun
I'm a man, I spell mmm, aaa child, nnn
That represents man, No B, O child, Y,
That mean mannish boy
I'm a man, I'm a full grown man
I'm a man, I'm a natural born lovers man
I'm a man, I'm a rollin' stone
I'm a man, I'm a hoochie coochie man

But then again: my name is McGill and I call myself Lill, but everyone knows me as Nancy.

I've rassled with this problem of how far to go with telling people the truth about affair recovery. Some say that being "brutally honest" involves more brutality than honesty. Others believe you got-ta follow the truth wherever it leads - pleasant or unpleasant. By temperament, I tend towards a follow-the-truth-wherever-it-leads approach. While I lie dying, I don't want no snot-nosed intern telling me everything is gonna be fine because s/he thinks I'll feel better. I won't. I'll just be pissed. On the other hand, I realize that many people don't feel the same way. For them, staying optimistic and keeping hope alive is more important.

It reminds me of the guy who takes massive doses of vitamin C to cure his cold. He doesn't want anybody telling him that the evidence doesn't support his beliefs about the effectiveness of vitamin C. He's got his placebo, which works just fine regardless of any evidence, as long as nobody starts talking about things like evidence.

I'm a little girl dressed up as a woman.


People see us everywhere.
They think you really care.
But myself, I can't deceive,
I know it's only make believe.

My one and only prayer, is that some day, you'll care.
My hopes, my dreams come true, my one and only you.
No one will ever know, how much I love you so.
My only prayer will be, some day you'll care for me,
But it's only make believe.

My hopes, my dreams come true, my life, I'd give for you.
My heart, a wedding ring, my all, my everything.
My heart I can't control; you rule my very soul.
My only prayer will be, some day you'll care for me,
But it's only make believe.

My one and only prayer, is that some day, you'll care.
My hopes, my dreams come true, my one and only you.
No one will ever know, how much I love you so.
My only prayer will be, some day you'll care for me,
But it's only make believe.