Hi All.....I am sitting here on New Year's Eve waiting to visit some friends. I asked my 18 year old what he was going to do. He doesn't know. H mentioned that he might go to the lake and visit his dad (HAHAHA...dad and OW are there with their new social network...I am sure). Anyway, my son "barked" back at me....I don't talk to dad.

How absolutely pathetic. Not only did my former H leave ME, but he in essence abandoned h is children as well. I know what he is doing. He is further justifying his leaving because "the kids don't care about me...they never call me"....WELL DUH.

At what point do these WS EVER realize that they are the ones who started this whole mess and that the children are in no position to assume any responsibility for what happened. Does the WS expect the relationship with the children to continue as was? How on earth can they be so unaware??? AND, will they ever "get it"???? I feel so sorry for my children. They have a father who doesn't get it about how his leaving change the dynaics of the relationship. He still uses thier behaviors and reactions for further justification. Recall, he left because "no body cared about me or paid attention to me"...I am so angry about this I could spit. I want to shake him silly. He is in the fog so badly....does or will he ever realize it? If so, what does it take for these WS to realize it? Do they ever realize it? I am physically sick to my stomach about this. This man has chosen the OW and her children over the welfare, protection, and wellbeing of his own children. Does that mean he never loved his children? At one point, and I have shared this before, he asked me if I loved the children more than I loved him??? I about fainted. I didn't/couldn't respond. I think the drugs and alcohol has simply fried any brain activity that relates to empathy or "other" orientation. AND, how does she live with a man like this? She knows he hates her kids. He won't go around them. He says that SHE has so many problems that he didn't know anyone was that screwed up. What the HECK is going on with him? How can a perfectly (what I thought) normal, supportive human being turn his back on the people that loved and cared for him? Help me here.....I am confused.

I didn't realize the full impact of what children suffer when a parent leaves home. HE IS NO LONGER PART OF THEIR LIFE...he doesn't know what they do on a daily basis. Our youngest son was featured in the newspaper with a picture and story because he went 16 hours away from home and returned for the holidays. My former H called me and said that a friend of his told him about the newpaper article...it's like he was MAD at me....heck, he doesn't live here anymore. Our youngest son has very little to do with him because of some of his choices he has made vis a vis family/divorce, etc. Do you get what I am saying? I am in between a Catch22....this is HIS DOING, not mine. What a mess.....I want to throw up. What he does is interpret all of this as further justification for his leaving....he just doesn't get it.

My boys "bracket" your youngest son (one older, one younger). Fortunately, their mother and I recognize the importance of having two parents in their lives.

However, my older son and I have a relatively "distant" relationship. My story about that is that his mother did many things to put herself between my son and me during his high-school years. My son was running with some kids who are now in perpetual trouble, drinking and experimenting with drugs. When I tried to talk to my wife about imposing more rules and structure (as a response to his misuse of his freedoms and poor decision-making) she always accused me of "wanting to PUNISH". She wanted to protect him from any consequences of his choices and behavior.

I think it is a natural impulse for parents to want to protect their children, but I have always stopped with physical safety and security. Even then, recognizing that special element of boys, I have not discouraged some risk-taking behaviors. (I'm not talking about drinking, drugs, or dangerous driving; those endanger personal safety and security. I'm talking about things that stretch the kid to develop physical or personal skills, such as education, sports and extra-curricular activities that require a commitment without an obvious payoff.)

What I'm trying to say is, I don't try to protect their feelings or to tell them how they ought to feel. (Perhaps spending 20 years with someone who did both of those things gave me a visceral understanding of what it does to someone.) I don't spend much time feeling badly on others' behalf in general, and I try not to ache for my sons...they can ache for themselves.

That's not to say that I am unsympathetic or unfeeling. I just don't project my own feelings outward onto others if I can avoid it. Again, I spent too many years with someone who did just that. My feelings are mine and others' feelings are their own, and we all have to deal with our own. When it's necessary to be supportive of people in times of loss and grief and difficulty, I try to do that by being there and finding a few words of comfort.

That said, your angry son probably needs to express his own sense of loss and grief. That he snapped at you for trying to force a connection with his father says something in that regard. If you ask him about it in a concerned way, what does he say to you?

Chris.

edited for punctuation

Sage, if I didn't know better, I would say my own mom had written your post. My father was a serial cheater who eventually left us (ages 16, 12, and 5 months) for another woman. I was the 12 y/o. Let me tell you how our story ended: it's now 23 years later and the relationship between my dad and me has not improved. There IS no relationship between my younger and him. The only one who has salvaged a "relationship" with my father is my older brother, who continually sought his approval.

My Dad blamed my Mom at EVERY turn. She must have been poisoning us against him. On the contrary, she never ever bad mouthed him to us. He always thought that she put us over him. He was a selfish, spoiled child and was jealous of the fact that she was a MOM first and then a wife. Here's the kicker: my Dad called my Mom right before Thanksgiving to tell her he was getting re-married. He said, "I'm getting older, I don't want to be alone forever. You have the kids and grandkids and I don't have anyone." What kind of logic is that? He doesn't GET that that was the choice the he ALONE made. He has always put the kids of the woman he was involved with before us. One woman had a daughter my age. Oh my gosh, how I hated her! She was the one he took out to practice driving and helped her look for her first car. When she and I ended up in the same dorm in college, I saw him a bit more because him and his GF came to visit HER.

Anyway... there is nothing you can do. You can't foster a relationship between your kids and him. This is ANOTHER choice he has made that will eventually come back to bite him in the ass. The only thing you can do is be there for your kids. In my own case, my Dad, the WS did not ever get it. He never will because even 23 years later, he is still blaming other people for his choices and bad behavior.

Monica

This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot

Chris..thanks for the wisdom and insight. When I ask him in a concerned way he responds with, "Mom, I have no empathy for him. He is a pathetic human being and his choice was to leave his family for another one."
That's the jest of his comments. I still feel badly that he can't have a decent relationship with him. The thing that makes me feel the saddest is his father's interpretation of it all..."see, no body cared about me, so I made the right choice"...that's it in a nutshell. His father is an alcoholic and has always made OTHERS responsible for his emotional health. He doesn't understand about love and freedom, nor the need to raise children to make their own decisions and be responsible people. Our oldest son purchased one of those all expense paid trips to St Lucia...he is a medical student and was awarded $6,00000 in scholarships from the med school. He is going to school on borrowed money...it's his life. My former H was furious that he chose to take that money and go on a trip with his girlfriend...he thought he should put it toward med school...and maybe he should have. Who knows? BUT, it's like their father finds FAULT in everything they do. When I speak with him about them, it is always negative stuff about them. It floors me that a man could be so unempathetic about his own children. I too, like you, have stepped back and let them live their lives. One of the BIG issues that my former H has about me was that our youngest son always like to play with "pink and frilly" things as a child. Who was I to put a damper on his choices? He did lots of funny, silly, "girl" like things as a child. He is now a freshman at Brown University....soooo....it goes way back, the issues that he had with me as a parent and with them as children. I guess he needed them to adore him, which they did/do, in a healthy, you're not responsible for my emotional health, kind of way. I think their father is emotionally needy and I am sad that he can't "grow" beyond that.
I adored my father as a child and wish they could have the same feelings. Maybe it's a gender thing. I don't know.

Sage, dads sometimes appear hypercritical to moms. I know I did. I meant to say more in my post above about moms wanting to protect sons from their dads' push; I think there's a psychological undercurrent of competition for mom's attention once sons get to the teenage years. I know it was true for me...I often had a feeling that my wife was more there for my sons than for me, and that she was determined to make them "better" men than me by "fixing" my flaws that she saw in them. And I'm not an alcoholic or a betrayer.

With our older son, I actually believed all his teachers who said that he wasn't working up to his potential because I shared their opinion. So, in conversation with my wife, I was pretty critical of his lack of effort. (I've subsequently been proven at least a little right: he's getting better grades in college than in high school.)

Now I understand that EVERY teacher of every subject sees far more potential in every above-average child than he/she can actualize, so I'm not as disturbed about "not working up to his potential" comments as I once was. When we are developing in one area of life, we often neglect other areas. My son was more focused on developing social skills in high school, something I didn't work on until college...so my grades dropped going from HS to college.

All that aside, I think the 800-pound elephant in your sons' relationship with their father (and maybe yours, too) is not infidelity or the new family. It's alcohol. Several betrayed people married to alcoholics or addicts have participated over the years and their stories are remarkably similar to yours in the matter of stunted or failed relationships with children and ex-spouses.

Chris.

" she was determined to make them "better" men than me by "fixing" my flaws that she saw in them."

Although I hate to say this, I am determined to make my sons "better" than their dad in a few ways as well. But the reasons are far different than what it sounds like your ex wife's was. Mine are to help my children understand the value on honesty, treating people well, not having addictions, and having morals in life. I'm not sure that is a bad thing though. I sure hope my kids don't turn out being as selfish as he is.

Somehow, I suspect my youngest is on his way to being that type of person. I sure hope so.

Charlie

The hardest thing for me to do as a parent is to let my boys be who they are, Charlie, so I understand the impulse. At your kids' ages, you can still be a big influence, but by the time they're in high school, their personalities and habits are pretty well formed and they're not quite as interested in your guidance. (MM, Q, and Will are probably laughing at that massive understatement...)

I did not agree with the way my older son went about joining the service, for instance. I would have preferred that he get through college first...but it's his life. Since that choice is long-since done, I support and encourage him in his efforts now.

Regardless of your husband's problems, your boys need him in their lives. It goes without saying that the fair thing to do is to let them make up their own minds about him when they are able to do so; the one thing I think it's important to avoid is anything that nurtures a sense of abandonment. The "truth" kids need to hear in young years is NOT that their dad left them, but that dad and mom couldn't get along and it didn't have anything to do with kids (even if some of it did).

Chris.

....The "truth" kids need to hear in young years is NOT that their dad left them, but that dad and mom couldn't get along and it didn't have anything to do with kids (even if some of it did...

Chris, I hear you loud and clear. In our situation, my H's former wife is 'stuck' even after 15 years. To this day she is equating the T-man leaving her to leaving BOTH OF THEM!!!She has seen herself as a package deal: me and Michael. And god only knows what stories she has fed Michael all thru those years. BUT when the rubber meets the road, she will call the T-man ... Michael turns 18 in March!!! no more court dates, thank you very much.

On the upside: Michael called his father a few seconds after 12 o'clock to wish him a happy new year. His first call of the year was to his father!!! the tides may be a-changing... one can only hope....

And as you walk you make your path Kat

Chris

I actually hear you load and clear as well. I don't ever downplay my ex to his children and don't feel they necessarily left them because they still see him, although not as much as I think they should. It doesn't matter though, I know he is the way he is and he will never change nor do I even try. Believe it or not, we are a very united front when it comes to being parents. If I punish at home, he follows through and it goes the same the other way. I keep him very informed about the kids. I'm willing to bet that I encourage them to spend time with dad more than anything. Sometimes my son tells me he wants to stay here. I have to tell you though that my youngest followed me around (snuck around) when I caught him in his affair and he knows that dad was dishonest and he knows, without my telling him, that that was part of the reason we separated. He is an extremely mature child who asks a lot of questions and I don't tell him things unless he asks but I will not lie to him. He doesn't know it all though, about the affair and everything.

He tells me that dad yells too much and I tell him that dad does love them regardless of his yelling because I know he does, I just believe that dad isn't happy with himself and projects that on to the kids. I don't ever say bad things about him, only good, but I do notice that they realize they don't see him as much as they should and they will form their own opinions of him. I do try to help him deal with all the yelling that my ex does, the best I can though and I don't think that is a bad thing. I think he needs some skills to understand how to deal with someone who doesn't always make sense because he yells at the simple stuff. My ex is very hard on him and expects him to be perfect sometimes and that bothers me - ALOT! I wonder if it is because our other son has a disability that my ex expects more of my youngest to compensate.

I do talk to them about honestly, an education, bad habits (ie affects of smoking and drinking, drinking and driving etc), treating others well, esp. about bullys in school and how to deal with them, and what is acceptable in my eyes because they do need this influence now while they are forming their own opinions. I do realize that there will be a day when my children will make their own decisions about their lives and I won't interfere then, but I think at this young age they can only be influenced for the better and I'm doing the best I can. Guess that is all any of us can do.

Charlie