I copied this from another site.. I thought it was well written and asked a thought provoking question.. and just might promote some discussion here for those that are stuck, in limbo and/or are unhappy... thoughts anyone?
Disheartened
aka
Xena the Warrior Queen
By rolley from Surviving Infidelity:
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I sometimes wonder if we ever really survive infidelity. Sure we work our way thru the minefield and some make it. And a select few may go on to have wonderful marriages that have grown from this. But I would guess most couples are damaged and striving day by day, year after year to keep going. We survive so to speak. But is that really something to work towards? Surviving seems so minimal. Every one of us has the opportunity to cut the chord and move on with our lives. Some do and some don’t. And maybe some that claim to have survived and have a wonderfully happy marriage haven’t completely healed or why else would they be on this site.
Don’t get me wrong, SI has provided me as well as countless others much needed support in the most trying times of our lives. Yet I feel at times that this site promotes simply one way of dealing with the problem. That being if there is love, a remorseful WS and lots of hard work, than a couple can get thru this and walk off into the sunset hand in hand. Is that really enough to make it? Is there another way? There are a lot of people out there whom this has scarred for life and no matter what the WS says or does to help in the process its not enough nor will it ever be. And if the BS is unable to forgive then they are seen as a cold-hearted person who can’t accept that people make mistakes. Even if it’s breaking the ONLY promise the WS was supposed to keep. The BS is still seen as the bad guy. All for trying to maintain some semblance of self respect.
I’m just thinking out loud and thought I’d share. This isn’t exactly my personal situation as I’m committed to devouring the shit sandwich that has been placed in front of me, but I often wonder if its all worth it and ultimately what is the price I will pay.
I think surviving is a damn lofty goal early on, especially when you wanna just roll up into a ball and die.
When the shock wears off and the reality of the situation comes into play...then it brings on a whole new list of questions. I know alot of folks mention closure. I need closure. Whether you are reconcilling, divorcing or staying for whatever reasons...fear...the kids...fear...money...love...ummm...did I mention fear? What CAN they say or do to give you closure? At least for me it was something that had to come from within. It took me a long time to get that because she offered none. I HAD to find it.
If its been 4 or 5 years later...then you need to look inside yourself. I know everyone have their own timelines however that's a long time to be unhappy without moving forward. I get the whole "its familiar and that in its own way feels safe." You experience or feel anything long enough it begins to feel normal in a way.
I came to the conclusion my closure came from wanting to live and experience life again. I could hang on to my anger till the cows came home but who was that hurting? Just me. We wouldn't be doing anything if their wasn't a payoff at some level. If you are staying together and years later are stuck...what is the payoff you are getting? Punishing your WS? Proving you are the moral person and they aren't? Fear? Yes they did something terrible but when do you sometimes kick yourself in your own ass for a jumpstart?
What if your WS isn't remorseful in your eyes and you still stay? Then the only person you can look at is...you. Maybe I'm too far past this...whatever...but I'm not one for giving kudos to someone who choses to be unhappy and keeps complaining about it. It is...a choice. As that saying goes: its like that person who keeps banging their head against a wall and wondering why they have a headache.
Its your choice to take control over your life. At some point you have to make a decision...that YOU and you alone are responsible for. It can get alittle too safe blaming the WS for everything and it sure stops us from looking at ourselves.
We all regardless of what our status is have a responsibility to take control of our own happiness...our lives...whether we decide to reconcile or not.
Grieve what you had or think you had. Mourn, get angry, cry. Then decide what's next. Are you in all the way or are you out? Half-assed reconcilation only gets you a half-assed marriage. Of course you are scared. But as another saying goes: driving in the middle of the road is the most dangerous place to be.
first you have to have two people who want the marriage to survive...not one who does all the work...to have a healthy relationship, and yes it can be done...why bother because you know what you have in front of you right now...if WS is ideal in all other ways..then stay and work on the relationship...if the WS is abusive...run and leave the relationship. In my advanced .:)years...I have seen marriages break up, second marriages that were worse than the first...before you can have a healthy marriage you have to work out the problems in the unhealthy marriage, or the same problems resurface...and infidelity, abuse , other problems keep on happening...we have read on these boards where someone married a BS...and that BS became a WS.
I read on SI occasionally and have seen a few women who have been BS in 2 marriages...they are attracted to the same type of personality...so you really have to heal yourself and do some deep soul searching before you begin to look for another partner. In many research papers on relationship the second marriage is more apt to fail...greater % end in divorce than first marriages...
The WS did break the only promise that was ment for a life time...today being faithful is just a word...Hollywood has encouraged infidelity by glamorizing sex, making movies where there are no punishments for the WS...it makes cheating an OK part of life...Cities like Las Vegas that use sex as a promotion for their city..".what happens here stays here"...nickname "SIN city"...We are shown life as no problem...but we all have problems and the TV, movies, are not real...they are an escape from reality...as is an Affair...so if the WS is willing to work on the problems they faced shouldn't they be given a chance to save their relationship.
Life isn't about being Happy...but working on being the best we can be...being an HONORABLE person when no one is around to see what you do...that is being content, happy...
just my thoughts...
Pat
Edited to add
I agree with what Tex wrote...
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Apr 30, 2006 3:39 PM This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Apr 30, 2006 2:12 PM
I echo alot of your thoughts Tex. The fact is if the WS won't work to repair the damage they caused you may find yourself with no choice but to move forward on your own. Like Tex, closure was something I had to find within me. Nobody gave me that and I searched for a long time to find it. I thought for a long time that I would never be able to move on without it, when I realized it was mine to give myself.
While I think it is easy for us having dealt with the fears to say just leave, it isn't easy to do. It sounds good in writing, but I know from personal experience how scary and painful it is. When there are no children involved it becomes much simpler. You cut off contact and you leave. With children comes a new ball of wax. You are trained to put your children's needs before your own. It is your job as a parent to protect them, to provide them with a loving family, etc. I imagine you may feel like you are letting them down if you get divorced. My personal feelings on this are that children adapt to divorce with proper assistance (ie counsellors, parents who put the children first and don't involve them or use them as pawns) and they deserve to be in a happy home and see their parents happy, even if it is apart.
Leaving isn't easy, but neither is staying if the WS is not doing the work required. I also agree that you cannot punish the WS for years and continue doing it without addressing what is inside and making yourself a better person. No, it isn't our fault they had the affair but at some point we need to realize we enable a lot of behaviours our spouses have in repairing the marriage or the lack thereof. We truly do teach people how to treat us. If we put up with shit then that is what we will likely get.
For me personally I still have bad days, sad days, etc. Those days aren't about the affair since I have forgotten that along time ago. I am still mourning the loss of my bestfriend, of the relationship and the possibility that I won't be able to have children. Those days are certainly few and far between now and in reality even married people have bad days, just the reasoning is different.
I have grown alot from the whole experience and I have learned many valuable lessons along the way. Some hard lessons, others important lessons. I am a different person than I was a few years ago, but I like the person I am and that is all that is important.
Kid
p.s.
Pat said "Life isn't about being Happy...but working on being the best we can be...being an HONORABLE person when no one is around to see what you do...that is being content, happy..."
Hmmmm I am not sure I agree with that statement. I think being happy is a choice and I wonder what kind of life you lead if you aren't happy? You can choose to be both happy and honorable, you can be content and honorable or you can even choose to be miserable but honorable.
Being happy and being content to me are two different things. Being content would seem to me to be stuck and just along for the ride, not miserable, not happy but somewhere in between. Sorry but I am not prepared to "settle".......I think we all deserve to be happy.
There are days when I don't want to be the best I can be.......and I think that is okay to as long as nobody is hurt in the process. Having those down days makes me happy. For instance some days I don't feel like talking to people so I don't answer the phone. Other days I feel like staying in bed and sleeping as opposed to the million other things I should do. Am I still the best I can be.....ummm NO lol but I am still happy
I think to live life to its fullest, it is all about being happy. I just don't think you need to hurt or harm others to achieve that happiness.
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Apr 30, 2006 2:45 PM This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Apr 30, 2006 2:43 PM This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Apr 30, 2006 2:12 PM
I'm with Kid and gonna have to disagree here..
<<<Life isn't about being Happy...>>>
Yes it is. If your spouse wants to join in then fine. I love making other folks happy but my own happiness isn't gonna be determined to how they respond to my actions. If my best...and that means including me into the equation... and not just what they just want...isn't good enough for them, then so be it.
Just because they stepped outside of the marriage doesn't mean a BS didn't have issues too. They need to be addressed as well.
I wanna be happy. Either they partake and contribute to that or they don't. Happiness to me includes being respected. You will respect me or kiss my butt goodbye. I won't compromise myself for anyone and I question anyone who would want/expect you to do that either aggressively or passively...please folks...don't confuse that with compromise. You can disagree without being disrespectful. You can be unhappy, lost....all of it without being disrepectful.
Don't forget folks, I've been on both sides so I know what I'm talking about at least in my situation.
Just my thoughts
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Apr 30, 2006 3:10 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Apr 30, 2006 3:08 PM
BUT I feel that the WORD Happy is used too freely...I'm not happy so I well have an A...Buying stuff makes me happy so I will run up the credit cards...if I don't have that thing I am not happy...so I deserve to be happy...so break into that house to get that necklace...selfish behavior doesn't mean happiness, and selfishness is used too often to denote happiness
You can not be happy all the time...you have to be content with what you have...you strive for happiness...I don't mean settling for ...but working toward more
If my H squeezes the toothpaste from the bottom and I do it from the middle that doesn't make me happy...but I am content to let it ride...do you see what I mean by content.
My H, and my children add to my Happiness, my dog makes me laugh...I make me happy, because I am happy with me content with who I am where I am in life...happy with what I have achieved and what I hope to achieve...the rest is an added bonus
I hope this makes sense to you
Pat
Kim and Tex I agree with what you wrote...my definition of happy the same as yours
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Apr 30, 2006 3:38 PM
Happiness is usually the byproduct of living a life that is filled with honesty, integrity, having basic needs fulfilled, and sharing the love we have for others.
The more we walk in tune with those values, the happier we can be.
Tex,
We solved the toothpaste issue 37 years ago we each have our own...H never put the top on and I didn't like the hard stuff that formed...and we both squeeze from the bottom.
What about the toilet paper/paper towel thing? In my house it's pull from the top! I change it if anyone in the house puts in on "the wrong way"!! Drives me nuts!!!!
Thank you Tex, it's time for me to get off the yellow line and to pick a lane. Thank you everyone else for your input. Pray for strength, and peace in my lane choosing. PS We both still love each other so either lane will be a bummpy first few miles.
Thank you all for your thoughts... at this point in my journey I am very happy with myself and my life...And oh my.. It has been a long and bumpy road to here...
“I sometimes wonder if we ever really survive infidelity. Sure we work our way thru the minefield and some make it. And a select few may go on to have wonderful marriages that have grown from this. But I would guess most couples are damaged and striving day by day, year after year to keep going. We survive so to speak. But is that really something to work towards? Surviving seems so minimal. “
That was a powerful sentence for me.. I don’t WANT to “survive”.. I want to THRIVE.. TO FLOURISH... to live my life...freely... fully.... feeling safe.. Happy... content...satisfied...at peace with whom I am.. Where I am.. Why I am.. What I am... no small feat given what life has brought me... and one I am happy to say... I working my way forward to... oh yes.. There are setbacks... bumps... a couple missed turns.. A couple of U-turns...and more than one screeching halt... but FORWARD I go...sometimes slowly and cautiously... sometimes... FULL THROTTLE.. But ALWAYS.. I AM IN CONTROL.
“Every one of us has the opportunity to cut the chord and move on with our lives. Some do and some don’t. And maybe some that claim to have survived and have a wonderfully happy marriage haven’t completely healed or why else would they be on this site. “
I don’t entirely agree with that statement.. For many of us.. Being on this site or another.. IS about paying it forward .. About extending that helping hand.. The shoulder to cry on.. The hug.. The ear to bend...the nonjudgmental listening...the bad joke that makes someone.. somewhere crack a smile.. And let that first glimmer of hope in...all of which are essential for healing ... But I do understand where he is coming from.. And the fact that he is still relatively new on this path makes me wish him well on his journey.
I am in agreement with all of us.. OUR happiness is OURS... for me.. Life IS about being happy... happy with yourself.. Who you are...being able to look in the mirror and loving the reflection.. Being proud of yourself.. sometimes for what you did do and sometimes for what you didn't do...
I think there is a line in a song that goes something like this...
“It’s not about having what you want.. It is about wanting what you have...”
Lots and lots of love and hugs...
Disheartened
aka
Xena the Warrior Queen
PS... yep..am with Pat on the toothpaste.. but Barb.. gonna have to wrassle with you on the tp....
And you see, that's where being just too damn picky can cause problems....
For me, as long as the toilet paper is THERE and I don't have to use my bare hand, I'm happy.
The fact that we HAVE the toothpaste make me happy.
Y'all need to lower your standards...
Life is too damn short to worry about nit-picky things like that. When you take the time to worry about that stuff, it doesn't leave you the time to ponder the REALLY important things... Like analyzing the NFL draft, wondering whether "Rocket Roger" will return to my beloved Red Sox, etc...
Cory
Some things in life are problems. Most are inconveniences. Knowing the difference is wisdom.
You're right Cory,but I still like my toilet paper & paper towels from the top. Only takes a few moments of thought every now & then. I still have time to ponder when my CHICAGO CUBS will FINALLY win the pennant again. In my lifetime would be nice!!
Okay I have to ask............wtf is with the toilet paper and paper towel? AS long as it is there and rolls I can't see a problem. Those things just seem way too small to worry about in this lifetime.......back to my "don't sweat the small stuff".
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Apr 30, 2006 11:12 PM
Paying it forward. At this moment a young man is in pain for his toddler son as tonight was the night the boy's mom told him that she is going to live with "a friend" and not with him and his dad anymore. I want to put my hand on this man's shoulder and let him know he has friends and for him at this moment there can't be enough hands.
Newly betrayed accepting 100% blame for everything. Beating themselves into the ground in complete despair. Enabling doormats depriving themselves from essential human elements of survival... dignity and self-respect. They too need the compassion of one, of many, who have been there and done that.
The BS wondering why she stays with an unremorseful WS. Sometimes it is the BS that has to "get it". The BS that is in this "fog". Hey guys remember me a year ago? I had a process to go through. I had to "get it" and my "fog" was dense. It cleared eventually but it took time and it was gradual. The unremorseful WS is often in a stalled or halted exit affair due to circumstances beyond their control. Many times detached from the BS even before the A started. Weeks, months, maybe even years spent planning the exit all while the BS is unaware. The world of the BS is ripped out from beneath them instantly leaving them disoriented and lost. They are vulnerable and susceptible... mere puppets to the whims of the WS whatever those may be. It takes time to find solid ground upon which to stand for the BS before beginning to find themselves and to begin to think logically and to find strength.
Friends. Some of the most real and genuine people to ever have known met on an internet forum? Some I have met, some I speak with daily. Do we speak of how infidelity affected our lives every day? No. What kind of flowers go in those window boxes in front of your house? That guy you're seeing did what? Your brother is having surgery? Your kid did what? What are you reading? Stick a fork in Roger Clemens and turn him over, he's done. Real friendships, some for life I am certain.
Gee Kid, I don't make that big a deal of it. I just like it that way. It's not like I spend much time thinking about it.I'm usually the one that puts both tp & paper towels out & I don't like it the other way.All my thoughts are on the A, my daycare & my kids. That's all there is.
Moe, you get it. At some point, the truth is evident: it ain't about an affair anymore, and maybe it never was. An affair is an event, like a football game or a race. It has a beginning, a duration, and (one hopes) an end.
Getting a life back after the event is over is what we're about here. And only occasionally can anyone give any of us a roadmap to follow. All any of us can do is keep moving through it without getting stuck in the mud for too long. Because every one of us is different, the way through the mud is different and we must each find it for ourselves.
Sometimes that new life is with a renewed and refreshed marriage. We do have examples of that around here. Sometimes that new life is delayed while the betrayed spouse sorts it all out. And sometimes that new life is alone.
I like that analogy Chris. An event. No more and no less. At one point it was the be all and end all of our existence and now it is like driving through a storm and every moment puts that storm farther into your rear view mirror. Then you call those you know to tell them it was a hell of a storm and this is what to expect when it gets to them.
This was a great post! It really made me think about what i want in all of this mess. I want to be happy, i want a good marriage, i want to be able to love and trust my H again.But can i do all of that??I know i need to look inside myself and decide if i want to be angry all the time or to be happy at least some of the time. I want to be happy!!!
Can marriage really survive infidelity? I hope mine can.But getting over the pain is a long hard road ,and there are times i wonder if it is worth it.I think we all feel , or at least i do, like we don't want to be made a fool of again.to put all your love and trust in someone who didn't care about your feelings is hard to do again.
Tex is right "FEAR" is a mighty strong emotion! The fear of being alone, of trying to make a new life for yourself, just starting over would be very fearful for me. So am i staying out of fear or love. I don't know, i hope i can figure that out myself.
God i love this site!!! You guys are great, you can really put things into prospective for alot of us!! Thanks!!
Kathy
What an interesting and thought provoking thread. And I love what everyone has said. Each has a road to follow...to carve out. I too hope for more than survial, but at first that is your only goal. The first step, and then the next down that long road...one day at a time. There will be many obsticles, many lessons to be learned along the way, and many, many thoughts. Healing is a journey...hopefully that road leads to happiness.
I like the thought that we all survive but at different levels....that works for me...Carol~
Chronogically I am one of the elders on this board LOL who would have thunk it
That said, I am a survivor of many traumas starting at age 4 when my mother died.
I would say I am a survivor because of the many 'things' I went thru which were far from helpful. However....I do not like the word 'survivor' if the trauma is not physical.
As I look back at all the - call them "unfortunate" - events in my life I see them weaved in the fabric of that life. Along the way I tried not to make the same mistake twice - and do not feel - finally - responsible for having gone thru 2 marriages, both of them having had problems due to infidelity. I know better....
In 15 days will be the 8th anniversary of that fatefull evening. My H and I are still a work in progress, some days easier than others - but it is not about the affair anymore and has not been for quite a while. Do we consider ourselves 'survivors'? I think not (maybe it is semantics lol) We came out the other side - not easily - but we did still holding hands, still working at it cause we want to, cause we make the choice to love each other even when we feel we do not like each other !!
Early in my healing I decided that I had been given a bag of lemons and my choice was to either let it rot and stink up my life or to make the best lemonade I could make - I could make. I let my H go and live his fantasy - it was for me the biggest gift I could give him. I loved him so I let him go.
He did come back - as I mentioned earlier some days are easier than others - but this is LIFE !!!
As Chris mentioned - it is best to drive with our sight focused forward than to be obsessed by the view in the rear view mirror. Let's be the past in the past - if not, I would not be alive today a couple of times :-)let's learn from it and let's get busy LIVING not just surviving....
As why I am still on this kind of board? I made a promise to pay it forward - and I am keeping my word.
Kat, you even have me beat by 7 months on the "age" factor...
I use the term "survivor" because it's a convenient word to use when describing the history of me.
However, it's not entirely accurate, as I've been many things at various times in life: Winner, loser, survivor, failure, you name it...
The important thing is that no matter what hat I was wearing at the moment, I was LEARNING, whether it was a lesson learned from success or mistake.
And those moments, those lessons, have become part of the total fabric that is Cory. It's a unique fabric, just as unique as every other person in the world. It may not be the highest, or lowest, quality, it may have some strange designs and colors here and there, but it's ME.
And good or bad, I wouldn't want to get rid of any single thread in that fabric.
Cory
PS: Four days 'til my big speech!
Some things in life are problems. Most are inconveniences. Knowing the difference is wisdom.
I'm going to be videotaping it for the purpose of seeing what I can improve on. I think it's a pretty well thought out and dynamic program.. Audience particpation, some humor, some stories of hard lessons learned, and a pretty cool finish (patting myself on the back for thinking of it).
The planning is done, the boards are prepped, I'm ready to go. Yes, you DO prep boards for breaking. You bake them at a low heat to dry them out, then sand any rough spots on the surface.
Cory
Some things in life are problems. Most are inconveniences. Knowing the difference is wisdom.
I am beginning to wonder why I should stay with my ws after the affair.
It really is a deal breaker and things will never be the same,oh we could carry on and live some sort of life but the trust and doubt and the worry that they may leave at anytime or I could is a heavy burden to bear,as is keeping the a secret a heavy burden for us both........its all neginning to be too much.
"Beginning to wonder" is a good place to be. If you follow that road for a while, you will figure out for your self if and how you want your marriage to proceed.
You have an absolute right to decide for yourself...and making a conscious decision (as opposed to a tired and worn-out "reaction" that "enough is enough") is the right way. You have to be both thinking and feeling in a "whole" way. It may take help...help from those of us who've been there, or help from a counselor or psychologist.
But "beginning to wonder" isn't the place to stop. See where it goes.
(Qoute)In the deepest part of me I think/feel that I will give all of myself to her UNTIL we get back on our feet and create a healthy environment for all of us AND THEN I will reevaluate the way I feel about her and decide where to go from there. I am hoping that we can become the couple that we never have been and I will give all of me to that end. So, she's right, it's still all about me.
I got this From SI.com and to me its very telling and acts as a warning to me that my ws may just do this very thing that this ws poster states in his post in SI.
Maybe now I can make up my mind and leave the madness of my spouses affair and the aftermath,it really isn't or maybe can't ever be the same for us and I can't get this hurt by the one I love again.
I firmly believe that that in order for there to be a relationship that works both people have to workto make the marriage work...
You have the option to leave...walkaway..or stay and work on the reasons why the infidelity happened...Neither option is easy, both will require a lot of work to heal.
You can not have the same marriage back...The trust isn't there...the innocence that was in your marriage on your wedding day is no longer there...
following the A..the relationship is now eyes open...but as you read you can have a different marriage..better than before in a different way...wouldn't say that infidelity is the cause for better marriage but the aftermath is working to reconnect with your H again... there are many better ways to reconnect with your S than infidelity that is not so painful..
Just saying that there are a lot of people who have worked to make a new and different marriage..those BS who didn't stay in the marriage have also struggled getting their lives back in order..mainly because their WS was not actively involved in wanting to try and rebuild the relationship.
The advice that is usually passed on is not to make any life changing decision for 6 months.
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
What CAN they say or do to give you closure? At least for me it was something that had to come from within. It took me a long time to get that because she offered none. I HAD to find it.
