A couple of days ago I found out that H still has phone service at the building we bought behind the pizzeria over a year ago. My son called it the other day and that's how I found out. Why would H need phone service in a building that we use only as a warehouse? It is right next door to our pizzeria so its not like you have to go far to use the phone if you need too. Then when my H found out that my son was calling from home he got mad at him. So I asked H why he still has phone service there...and he wouldnt asnwer me. And on top of that he did not bundle the services with the pizzeria so he could pay only one bill. He has it as a seperate bill and with a different company. There is no reason for that at all, especially fiancially...since the company offers a good discount if you bundle the services together. I suspect this is how he has been communicating with a possible OW. And here I thought there was no way he was cheating still since he had no means of communication outside of the pizzeria. I was wrong!
Also, some photos that he asked me to have copies made of him from his teenage years that belong to his mother have disappeared at the pizzeria. I asked him where they were, and again all I got was silence.
Yep...I am looking for opinions. From everything I have written...from all that you know of my situation...do you think my H is still cheating on me?
Carol~
PS Anyone know how to get past phone records?
EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to mention that the phones we have at the pizzeria are really good. They are cordless and have a long range...in fact you can go into the building next door and still use the phone. H always has one of these phones with him (90% of the time). So again, why does he need a seperate phone service there?
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 6, 2007 1:21 PM This message has been edited by pizzalady on Jul 21, 2006 9:58 PM
Hi Carol. It doesn't look good. I don't have any idea how to get past phone records.Since his behavior has been really odd lately,I would at least think he is up to something.It's hard to tell if it's OW or not.That would explain the other phone & a different phone company though.Are you just going to ask him point blank or are you going to try & gather more information first? I am so sorry that you are having a rough time.I think that once a spouse cheats that it is much easier to do it again. And as I have told my H, I am sure that the second time around he would be much better at covering things up.Anyway, the sad truth is that it's almost impossible to trust someone once they have cheated & lied in the past. At least that is what I am finding out. I give credit to those of you who have saved your marriages & now trust your spouse. I don't think that I will ever trust my H.I will not put myself in that position of being stupid again.Anyway Carol, try & take a deep breath & think as clearly as you can about what your next move should be. Put your wellbeing first. What course of action will get you what you need to know. That should be your ultimate goal.It's like a game. You might not be able to control or predict his moves but you can control what you do.If you need answers, do what is necessary to get as many answers as you can.Then you can make an informed decision for yourself & children. We are here for you. Be strong. You have the strength to do whatever needs to be done.Think, & choose your actions.Take your time.
On the surface - given what you've found out, I would say that it is a definite possibility. From the things you've written about his pushing you away and his nasty demeanor in Italy, it reminds me of my ex. You just "KNOW" when something isn't right after you've felt it before. It is a pretty big "tell" if he has no answers for your direct questions. It just doesn't add up.
I found out the hard way that no amount of policing and snooping changes what a person wants to do. After the first A, I didn't want to get my ex a cell phone because then he could easily make contact with another woman. I did because Cingular has real-time billing info online. He showed ME though... he DID make contact w/another woman, but this time, he used prepaid calling cards from public phones. After we separated, she got him a phone on her plan so I couldn't see how much they talked. Grrrrr.
Regarding past bills, I called the phone company and got them. I could see like the past 9-12 months online, once I registered for online bill pay. This was on cellular service, but I assume you could do that for a land line.
In my situation, the second time stung a LOT worse than the first because he knew what it did to me. The second time was a slap in the face and felt like a personal attack. If he's not cheating, he's being VERY sneaky! I hate this for you, I really do.
What's your next step, Carol?
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the others, I suspect that something is going on.
I guess if I was in your shoes, I would call the other company, and inform them that you are his wife and book keeper. Ask them about what plans they have for bundling services, let them go into their sales pitch. Then ask them if they offer call waiting, caller ID, and detailed billing.
Pretend to be interested in one of their premium packages, offer that you and your husband will have to discuss the offers. But oh...by the way...regardless of which package you take, you would like to start the detailed billing and could they please send you the detailed billings since the first of the year? If they ask why, say that one of your suppliers is denying that efforts were made to straighten out a invoice that is in question. That you have overpaid this supplier and may have to take them to small claims court to get your money back. They are denying that several phone calls were made to them about the issue. Also, be sure and have the detailed bills sent to your home mail box.
Don't provide more than necessary information to the sales representative on the phone, but be prepared to justify your request. I also would drop the questioning of your husband about the second line until you get your hands on detailed billing.
I just looked at what I wrote, damn, going through affairs has given me the ability to be "sneaky." I guess that is what happens when you are forced to deal with a wandering spouse. After reading many books, reading of the ways affairs start and the efforts a wandering spouse makes to cover up their actions, I can think like one. I guess in order to catch one, you have to think like one.
I hope the detailed billing proves your suspicion wrong, but given what you have told us, I would be prepared for the worst. After reading other of your posts, this could explain why he doesn't care or have time for you and the family. His spare time is to valuable for him to share with you as there is someone else, some one else and a situation he is "concerned" about.
Carol...you're beating a dead horse. The total mistrust and silence is enough to drive anyone crazy. Your efforts at detachment, how are they going? Continuing to try to figure out what he is doing is not detaching, it is? If you can find the power in yourself to "let go"....do it. Your son being reprimanded is inexcusable. These children are being put in the middle of something they have no business being involved in.
Why are you doing this? You know the score. You will never be able to trust him again. Do you want to live your life distracted by assuming the role of a private detective? That's not a marital relationship...
If you have a warehouse behind the pizza place, let him live there. Let go....let go....let go.
I think this is the most difficult part....I certainly am not there yet, but I gave up long ago the wanting to find out what was going on. I knew what was going on...I didn't need any more proof.
Find some other distractions. Put the children back in school and find something that YOU want to do. Go back to work, go back to school....open an art studio, volunteer...hell, open your own pizza place.
Find the resources within and capitalize on them. You don't need to challenge yourself with anymore stress.
You are a wonderfully giving, caring person. Put that energy where others who deserve it can receive it.
I hate this for you....you have the power to do this and you know it.
1/ he is cheating - what do you do with the information
2/ he is not cheating - what do you do with the information.
Although you have made progress, Carol, your detaching efforts are stalled at this point. Of course, you care.... but you cannot control all his behaviors.
LET GO
Author unknown
To “let go” does not mean to stop caring,
It means I can’t do for someone else.
To “let go” is not to cut myself off,
It’s the realization I can’t control another.
To “let go” is not to enable,
But to allow learning from natural consequences.
To “let go” is to admit powerlessness,
Which means the outcome is not in my hands.
To “let go” is not to try to blame or change another,
It’s to make the most of myself.
To “let go” is not to care for, but to care about.
To “let go” is not to fix, but be supportive.
To “let go” is not to judge,
But to allow another to be their own human being.
To “let go” is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
But to allow others to affect their destinies.
To “let go” is not to be protective,
It’s to permit another to face reality.
To “let go” is not to deny, but to accept.
To “let go” is not to nag, scold, or argue,
But instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To “let go” is not to adjust everything to my desires,
But to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
To “let go” is not to criticize and regulate everybody,
But to try to become what I dream I can be.
To “let go” is not to regret the past,
But to grow and live for the future.
To “let go”
Is to fear less and love more.
What concerns me more than anything at this point is what do you teach your children, what kind of life lesson are they absorbing ?
If you were to join AlAnon (which I am surprised your C has not yet mentioned - or has he) you would hear other life stories similar to yours and hear the children' struggles.
Do you want to keep going hoping beyond hope that one day your H will 'wake' up and everything will be how it was years ago? You are evolving, Carol, growing, changing.... that's what life experience do to us - but your H, due to his substance abuse is stuck in adolescence. You cannot 'do' for him... your love for him is not enough - and if you do no do it for you - do it for your children........
Wishing your strength and the will do to what needs to be done.
I have to laugh...because you guys are right. Everytime I find out about another betrayal it stalls my detaching. It puts me back a bit. But I am able to move forward a little quicker each time...soon nothing will bother me I suspect and nothing will shock me. I am getting there...I am getting stronger. I have taken steps financially to protect myself more just within the last week. Big steps for me. I know the next logical step is seeing that lawyer I have been meaning to call.
Just to answer one of your questions Kat, yes, my C (and others) have mentioned Alanon to me. I have not ruled it out. Right now with the kids out of school for the summer I have limited time to myself. Once school starts again I will have much more time to myself and I can persue going if I decide to.
And Tex, for some reason it does matter...I want proof if he is having an A or esculating his drug use. Lets just say it would give me a BIG push in the right direction for one, and it would also give me peace of mind if things turn ugly. H has an ugly side, trust me! It is not something I would plan on using in court, but knowing I have it if I need it would make me feel better...like having an insurance policy. I was also told by reliable sources that if I can prove that H has a drug problem I can legally take steps to make sure that he is not using when he has visitation with the children if we were to divorce. That would offer some piece of mind knowing that I have legal options there. I hope this makes some sense to you.
The really pathetic part about divorce is that some people go from not having anything to do with their children when they are around to demanding their rights to see their kids and suddenly being a loving, caring father and playing it out with the violins for the court. Makes me kinda sick. I hope he won't be like that.
It is good to know you have some legal ground to stand on so that your children aren't visiting with him all jacked up.
I am glad you are making plans. You are taking baby steps Carol and the slow and steady win the race.
The thing is, at least from what I'm reading, your line in the sand keeps moving backwards. Trust me I did it too. Then I'd feel like a flunky once it was crossed and I did nothing. I just wanna make sure you know no-one is judging you for not wanting to give up just yet.
I always thought when I got to that point it would be with a bang...something major. In honesty it wasn't. It was something minor that just made me say "that's enough". I can't even remember what it was now that's how minor it was compared to the "big picture".
It stopped being about why is she doing...whatever... and became why am I doing "whatever" to myself. In that moment in time it wasn't about her disrespecting one more time...it was about me disrepecting me.
As much strength as it takes to reconcile with a remorseful spouse...it takes just as much strength to walk away from an unremorseful one. Let's face it..at our age facing a new world with no safety net is a scary place at the beginning. As weak at it may sound I was scared to death. I like my comfort zone.
Carol...instead of looking at what he's doing or hiding...look at your reaction to it. Not the "why" of what he's doing but the "why" am I tollerating it again? Look at it, disect it and discuss it with your C. Maybe you are scared. Maybe you aren't ready to give up yet. Maybe you aren't ready to change your lifestyle from one which you know to one you don't. Maybe you would feel like a failure. Maybe you think you don't deserve any better than this crap. Maybe, maybe ,maybe.
Right now, the second you read this...what is holding you back from making a decision? Admit it to yourself and then deal with it. "I'm not ready yet because of...." (((Carol))) its ok whatever it is. Most of us have been there and there's no better answer than the next. Kids, fear, money...whatever.
You aren't weak Carol in anyone's eyes. All we are doing is trying to get you to KEEP the focus on you...not him. You ARE worth the focus Carol. Don't forget that.
I agree that Carol has made some progress in letting go...and that she is so much stronger...
Carol also has some huge problems that as a SAHM she needs to have all her ducks in a row before she leaves...if you recall she has posted that most things that are jointly owned are only in her H's Name...as a woman that is harder to get around...money for lawyers...she has a lot to deal with...and she is proceeding with caution so she doesn't end up spending money she doesn't have to fight her H for what is equally hers....so when you use the 2 X4's make them rubber coated.. ...she is making slow progress and it is steady...
Wow Tex...like I keep saying, you're good! You would make a great C! This is a little exercise in Fear vs Reality that me and my C did
FEAR: I will be alone...who would want me, especially having 3 kids?
REALITY: I am already alone! I am good person, reasonably attractive, and smart. I will be fine without a signifigant other in my life, until (or if) I decide to persue another relationship.
FEAR: H supports me financailly, what would I do without him?
REALITY: He will still be legally responsible financially. And when I am ready (or need to) I can get a job, even if it's only part time.
FEAR: The children will be without their father. I dont want my children to feel abandoned.
TRUTH: They have little interaction with him as it is right now and it looks like he isnt going to change that. They already feel abandoned and unimportant to their father.
FEAR: H is cheating on me again.
TRUTH: It doesnt matter what he is doing, he is being secretive and deceitful. His behavior hurts me, but I cannot control another person. It is out of my hands.
FEAR: Seeing the lawyer means making a move towards divorce. It means that my worst fears have come true, that my marriage has failed.
REALITY: Seeing a lawyer means seeing where I stand financially and legally. I do not have to get a divorce just because I consulted a lawyer. Perhaps my marriage has failed, but I did not fail. I did all I could to make it work. It takes two for a marriage to work. One cannot do it alone.
FEAR: My children will resent me and wonder why I broke up our "happy" family.
TRUTH: H broke up our family by cheating and refusing to be a good father and husband. Sure, the kids may have a hard time understanding all of it now, especially about the "adult" things, but they will relaize one day that mom had to do what she had to do to survive, and that was to get out of an unhealthy relationship. They will know the truth and learn they have value in life by the example I have set.
FEAR: I will be an emotional mess if I leave H.
TRUTH: I am already an emotional mess (LOL).
Thank you for reminding me of this.........Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 6, 2007 1:24 PM This message has been edited by pizzalady on Jul 23, 2006 5:16 PM This message has been edited by pizzalady on Jul 23, 2006 5:14 PM
>>As much strength as it takes to reconcile with a remorseful spouse...it takes just as much strength to walk away from an unremorseful one. Let's face it..at our age facing a new world with no safety net is a scary place at the beginning. As weak at it may sound I was scared to death. I like my comfort zone.<<
Amen, amen, amen.
Some of those "minor" questions that are part of "facing a new world" (and which sometimes hold us back):
Where would I live?
Where would I work (who'd hire me)?
How much of a drop in standard of living would I (and the kids) suffer?
Will my children hate me for breaking up their family?
How much will the process of divorce cost?
Am I in danger of harassment from my spouse or from his/her friends and family?
Am I too damaged emotionally for anyone to be interested in me?
How would I ever be sure that another relationship wouldn't turn out the same way?
What will my family (parents and siblings) and friends think of me?
You guys are right, it certainly does take a lot of strength to stay or to go. I was so determined to stay and fight for my marriage that it makes trying to leave even more difficult.
And thanks Barb for checking up on me. How am I doing today? I am proud that I have faced many of my fears and I have done things to protect myself, proud that I have come this far. With each step it becomes easier to face the next...with each betrayal it becomes an incentive to move forward. Each day it becomes a little bit more about me and less about what he is doing.
I have been having dreams about H and other women, or should I say nightmares, for the last two nights!!! Now my sleep is being disturbed again. I thought I was through with that part. But I feel this is more of a warning, not so much an interuption. The first dream was about H and OW...how they met and where. The next dream was about H and OW breaking up, which was why he has been coming home early the last few nights. But the dream got worse after that. H started going after other women in front of me and being vendictive. Then we got into a physical fight where I hit him with something. After that he behaved, but it felt like a trick. The dream was telling me there would be more and he will not stop and would continue to try to deceive me and cheat on me. The dream was warning me that he cannot be trusted. A warning I need to listen to.
Hi Carol! Sorry about the lack of sleep.That's no fun at all! I'm not having much luck either. H & I got into an arguement this a.m. I told him that I wanted his cell phone code to unlock the phone & his password to check his messages.He said no, that I was being unreasonable & that he has nothing to hide.Sure! Anyway, he's tired of the snooping & the fact I don't trust him.Too bad I say! Anyway,I hope that you continue to get stronger & stronger.I've pretty much figured out that H & I are probably not going to make it either.He won't do what it takes in order for me to heal.I hope you can manage to get some sleep. It's terrible when things haunt you at night too. It's like there is no escape from what you have to deal with. A few hours of peaceful thoughts would be nice, eh? Just remember that we are here when you need us.In reference to an earlier post, I don't think your kids would blame you for breaking up the family. Kids are so smart. My son keeps saying that he hopes I make my H leave for good. He knows everything that happened & he knows how H makes me feel.My mom & dad never got along & I was glad when they got divorced.I never saw my mom again but I still think that's better than 2 parents staying together when they arn't happy.That's just my experience though. Take care!!
"I told him that I wanted his cell phone code to unlock the phone & his password to check his messages.He said no, that I was being unreasonable"
I'm sure I don't even need to tell you Barb that that answer was manipulating to get you off his trail, pure and simple.
"& that he has nothing to hide.Sure!"
If he didn't have anything to hide, he would gladly give the password to you.
"Anyway, he's tired of the snooping & the fact I don't trust him.Too bad I say!"
Your right, that is too bad. He made his bed and now he has to sleep in it. Once again, his answers are all manipulation to put the blame and guilt on you instead of himself.
Carol: Let me just say I am heartsick for you. I am sitting here with all the memories of the subsequent d-days, repeated heartaches and pain washing over me. I've followed your story for a long time (on both boards - can I say that?) and I feel for you the way I would for a non-virtual friend. In fact, I'm fighting the urge to go to Priceline and book a cheap ticket to your state to support you IRL. Oh, and kick your husband's ass, too. ; )
I also remember the whole overwhelming feeling of insurmountable-ness (to use bad English). I had a hundred and ninety eleven reasons why I couldn't do something to move the situation one way or another, and only one was a non-committal, unremorseful spouse.
Tex wrote:
>>your line in the sand keeps moving backwards. Trust me I did it too. Then I'd feel like a flunky once it was crossed and I did nothing. I just wanna make sure you know no-one is judging you for not wanting to give up just yet.<<
I'm a member of the spineless club too. I didn't know what to do to "enforce consequences", like many people on the other board (this one didn't exist yet) recommended. Others would post stuff like "kick him to the curb" and I'd feel like such an idiot while thinking, "how do I make him leave if he won't go?" or "If he leaves, he'll never come back" or a hundred other things that fueled my insecurities.
More from Tex:
>>Let's face it..at our age facing a new world with no safety net is a scary place at the beginning. As weak at it may sound I was scared to death. I like my comfort zone.<<
Carol, can I ask you a personal question? I think that you may have had a similar background to me - I married my ex right out of college. I lived at my parents' during college (couldn't pay for living and schooling both) and never lived alone in my entire 22 years. Then, at 40, to live on my own as an adult, with a child seemed overwhelming. Sure, I had paid the bills and run the household for 20 years or so, but on my own, with no (supposed) support or backup, etc. was daunting. I was scared to call the utilities to set them up in a new place! I thought it would be "hard" until that first phone call with the very nice, very helpful phone rep at the cable company.
And yet again from Tex:
>>Maybe you would feel like a failure.<<
Ya think? I was sure that everyone was judging me in the first days after my separation. When I did talk to those nice service reps, my voice would catch if I had to mention divorce. I remember being almost paralyzed by the thought of telling my and ex's families. I'm sure that some of my extended family, that are of a, cough,cough, more conservative nature are convinced that I should've stuck it out (I'll tell you about the call from the uncle that is a priest another day...). Failure? Try scarlet A. And I didn't even get the "fun" of the adultery. Carol, I learned to look folks in the eye and tell that I worked for over a year to save my marriage but couldn't do it alone. You have done much more than I ever did and have the absolute right to tell any and everyone to stuff it if they perceive you as a "failure".
Dancin Gal wrote:
"she is proceeding with caution so she doesn't end up spending money she doesn't have to fight her H for what is equally hers"
To which Carol replied:
"I am also taking it slow because of financial concerns because of the type of business we are in. Trying to get all my ducks in a row as they say. I think H is doing some things to ensure he has some money on the side that cannot be touched if I leave him."
I'm not sure about the great state of Pennsylvania, but in the land of fruit and nuts, if you need the money for a lawyer, even for a consultation, it will be "covered" or your H cannot "get you" for it. If he is hiding money, tell your future (hopefully not-too-future) that you may need the services of something called a forensic accountant. This professional can look at receipts of the business and the books and determine if H is hiding funds.
But if you want to use money to consult with a lawyer, I'd suggest taking it out in small increments over time. Can't get to the lawyer til September when the kids are back in school? When you get groceries this week, get an extra $50 or so back in cash. Do that repeatedly and squirrel the cash. He'll be none the wiser and you'll have your retainer without tipping your hand. (shout out to Ol Marble Eyes - I never used to think this way, either.)
Sorry this has gotten so long. I wish I could be of more help, somehow (it's the consultant in me - I'm a solution provider!!). Nevertheless, (((Carol)))
When I read your thread, I felt like the others, that rush of being right back in that place, a place no one ever wants to be. Someone else calling the shots, and that someone not looking out for YOUR interests, just their own. Feeling guilt for everything and anything.
I've often said that trying to work on a marriage when the other person is irresponsible is like "trying to clap with one hand". It just isn't possible.
I went through, and still do to some degree, the feelings of feeling guilty and ashamed that I couldn't make a boundary stick. But instead of beating yourself up about it, feel proud that you have been a good person, keeping things together, doing what YOU were supposed to do. If taking a breather and letting it "digest" so you can make decisions instead of just reacting to someone else being selfish and irresponsible is what you need to do, then so be it. Eventually you will get to where you need to be, you are a strong lady - it is obvious in your notes.
Nobody envies the position you find yourself in, because we know how it feels, too. And we are rooting for you. Our frustration lies in not being able to spare you the pain we felt going through this.
Wow...thank you Misha & Sue...you really touched me and have offered me wonderful advice and a ton of support
I had an appointment with my C today. We are working on getting me even stronger. I told C that I want a seperation at the very least. So my C suggested I write a letter to H, but not to give it to him yet. My C would like to discuss it with me first and make sure that I am strong enough to back up any statements that I make to H, and any ultimatums that I may give, if any. He said there is no reason to make an ultimatum if I am not willing to accept H leaving the relationship. I understand that and I am willing to accept it. He wants me to take my time...no need to rush, and suggested I go see that lawyer I have been promising to go see. He said hiring a PI is up to me, but I should be prepared for the worst. He said what everyone else has been saying...it's not what he's hiding...it's his secretive behavior. In fact it's all about H's behaviors and addictions and how he is getting worse. H is paranoid if you ask me.
I aksed H to do 6 things in order for me to remain in the relationship after d-day. 2 of which he has done but half-ass, and 4 he will not even address. I have given him 2 years to step up to the plate...time's up! The 6 things I needed H to do will be the main body of the letter I propose to write as to why I want a seperation. I just feel as long as I remain in the relationship I will suffer, and H will never change. It's time to end the suffering. My next C appointment is in two weeks...at which time I will have the letter written and see if my C has any suggestions or advice to give me before giving it to H. Maybe I will even it post it here and get your guy's opinions too.
This is not what I wanted. I wanted to be married to my H forever and I wanted a family <sigh>
Take care....Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Jul 26, 2006 7:26 PM
Carol, you will still have your family.H will just not be included.The kids & you have remained a family even without input from your H. Hang in there & good luck!!
""""He said hiring a PI is up to me, but I should be prepared for the worst.""""
Carol, what would be the point? Do you need evidence that your H is still cheating to get a seperation? Would it make a difference in your decision at this point? Your H continues to be secretive and treat you and the kids like crap so hiring a PI would prove what?
Hi Carol...a quick note of support for you in any decision that you make. Of course you want to take your time and try to salvage anything as important to you as your family which at this point includes your husband. That has been the most difficult part of this for me...redefining my concept of family. When we had family celebrations when former H was here, he would always sit opposite me at the dining room table. I recall the first Thanksgiving after he left...I could hardly hold back the tears...it was so odd, as if he were dead and gone (which in a sense he was). It has just been within the last couple of months that I hardly think about it anymore. This part of it I know will fall into place for you in time. I have planned a fun Thanksgiving trip for the boys and myself. We are traveling to Williamsburg VA for an "old fashioned" Thanksgiving. I KNOW that I could not have done this before this time. Things really do fall into place, but YOU have to be in that place in order to make it happen. I think you have an idea what is in store for you....just continue to work on that strength (whatever that is) and move at the pace you feel most comfortable moving. There are no rules for this stuff....you make your own rules as you go along...I am certainly thinking about you.
One other thing I've been meaning to mention. If you do decide to get out of your marriage, I probably don't need to urge you to get copies of any documents at the pizza parlor (if you can get them without him seeing) he is hiding to know what exactly is in any other accounts, stocks, etc. If you can prove that stuff (even if he takes it out,) you have legal recourse.
All the records are now kept in the locked warehouse. Besides, I cant prove anything even with the records. My H calls in the numbers to the accountant, so they never actually see anything but the pizzeria's check book once a year at tax time. Most of the money is under the table and not traceable no matter what. Plus, we incorporated about 4 years ago. I think H was trying to protect his but while he was having the A. The so called corporation's shares were divided between him and his dad. At the time H said they did this for tax purposes and legal protection so we could not be sued as individuals in regards to the business. So I lose no matter what! All I am entitled to is 50% of his share of the pizzeria.
He bought the building I call the warehouse with OUR money but put it in HIS name only. I am still entitled to 50% of it's value since it was purchased while we are still married. Some how H thinks that if everything is in his name it's his only. But that's not what the law says. The law stated that unless it was purchased prior to our marriage I am entitled to half. Unfortunately with everything in his name, he can sell whatever he likes without my approval, unless I file for a legal seperation or divorce and request the marital assets be frozen which will make the sale of anything even with his name on it only illegal to sell.
Guess I better get my behind to see a lawyer....I have got to get over that fear...UGH!!! I just have to force myself to do it......Carol~
Hi Carol,
I ran into a lot of the same issues you are as far as the business goes. When I met with an attorney he wanted me to hire a company to research his "lifestyle" so when we went to court he could prove that my ex made more then he was claiming. It was a lot of money to hire that company, so I didn't, but my ex didn't know that. You have to look out for yourself at this point. I told my husband that I hired the company and that they had been researching & tracking his lifestyle of over two months. I told him that I wanted to settle things fairly between the two of us, but if we couldn't come to an understanding, I would have to use their findings to help me get what I deserved. You can also mention that with the information they have gathered you could get him into trouble with the IRS for Fraud. Thank god your names not on any of that This will get his attention when the time comes to split up the assests. Hope some of this helps.
I know you don't want it to come to this, but now is the time to get as sneakey as him.
Carol: You are right about your not-so-dear husband being mistaken that it is all his because it is in his name. My ex had the same misconception and had quite the "come to Jesus" when it came to child support, alimony and this nasty little computer program called a dissomaster. I cannot urge you strongly enough to see the lawyer - the piece of mind alone is worth it!
As far as the PI, I agree with Tex (I think it was Tex - sorry if I'm wrong.). I hired a PI when I already thought I knew, did most of the work of gathering information and was out $3000 and all I have to show for it are some pictures I'd rather not seen and a video that should be burned. Save the money. You KNOW. He knows you KNOW ... and doesn't give a flying blind rat's ass.
Funny, that's what did it for me finally - I knew, he knew and he didn't care that I knew and I was hurt by it. Think Carol. This person doesn't care that they hurt you. Repeatedly. The total disregard for you and your feelings is more troubling than what's in some warehouse.
"Most of the money is under the table and not traceable no matter what. "
Money is traceable to an accountant (probably one that specializes in forensic auditing). As an accountant I often perform a Net Worth on individuals who claim xxx but their lifestyle indicates otherwise. I sift through credit cards, investment statements, mortgage statements, bank statements, assets, titles, deeds. Just because it is cash doesn't mean it isn't traceble. As an auditor I would say that likely 3/4 of my audit files are cash under the table. The chances of finding it ALL are very unlikely, but the majority of it....yes I do it all the time! In most audit files with cash included it likely isn't what you find in the file as what you don't find. Meaning that all the groceries, assets, toys, vehicles, etc have to be paid with some form of money. If it doesn't come from bank accounts, cc's, loans or investments..........then guess what it was bought with cash. Gifts from family can easily be ruled out unless they have hard evidence (ie cancelled cheques and parents bank statements showing transfers)
Essentially what I do at work is take all the asset values (including investments and bank accounts) at a starting point and determine how much they went up in 2-3 years, then I take all the debts and determine whether they went up or down. The result is then adjusted by a few things (including what statistics say are the personal expenditures - groceries, utilities, gas, etc) to determine what amount should have been reported in income. That amount is compared to what actually was reported.......and presto you have unreported business income.
So moral of this story for those that aren't into numbers......it can be done.
Although the IRS threat is a very viable and likely solid threat, I would just caution you to be careful you don't burn your own butt in the process. If you want to alert the IRS just wait until you are legally seperated and you are far far away lol.
I wish I could fly down there and help you get everything you deserve Carol. This man has been treating you horribly and if he thinks he can walk away with everything he owns, think again. You hire yourself a good lawyer with a great reputation.............but Carol phone and make that appt soon. Just because you see the lawyer doesn't mean you HAVE to go through with anything.
Hugs
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Jul 28, 2006 11:35 PM
Thank you everyone. Come Monday, I will be making calls
I have made a first draft of my letter, it was 4 pages long. I made way too many "you" statements, and I need to make more "I" statements...afterall this about what I want
Since things have changed literally overnight, I have decided to scratch my original letter of what I need to stay in the marriage. Since there is no marriage to speak of right now and maybe there never will be, I thought this letter fit the bill. FEEDBACK PLEASE!
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Dear XXXX,
I am glad that you finally told me how you feel but, I am sorry that it took you so long to do it. You could have spared us both a lot of pain had you just been honest to begin with. I am really sorry that you do not feel me and the kids are worth it to try but, that is your choice. Apparently you already had it in your head and your heart that things were not going to work out so you didn't even bother to try. I thought our marriage was worth the effort, but I could not do it alone. A marriage takes two willing partners. Regardless of your feelings for me, or lack thereof, you still had no right to cheat on me. I deserved at the very least for you to be honest from the beginning.
All I have ever wanted was for you to be happy. I have said that to you many times before. But happiness does not come from a bottle, not from an affair or other sexual conquests and ego boosts, not from a joint, and not from any other drug. Happiness comes from knowing who you are and being happy with yourself....being at peace. I feel you need time to think about what you want, who you truly are on the indside, and how to find peace within you. I also feel that you may need help dealing with all of this. My new counselor is willing to see you and he is nearby in the industrial park. I strongly urge you to contact him:
Gxxxx Kxxxx 961 Mxxxxx Bxxx., Suite 312, Axxxxxxx (xxx) xxx-xxxx
Since I do love you, I will let you go. I do have more self-respect than to stay in a marriage where I am not wanted, loved, or respected, and where our marriage vows are not honored. So, given your feelings about me, I feel it best that we separate at this time. Maybe that will give you the time, space, and peace to really think about what you want out of life. A separation does not mean that you are free to go out with other women, as long as we remain married. It is a time apart to reflect, and a time for self discovery. It is a time to decide what you want and to make life-altering decisions without outside interference and influences. I hope you will honor that for now. And when you are ready to talk let me know. For now, know that I love you and only want the best for you...I always have.
Love, C
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Edited to add:
What do I say to my children? HELP!!!
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Jul 30, 2006 6:32 PM
Your class and eloquence makes me feel tears well up in my eyes. It is too bad that your H's drug clogged brain can't see that. I know you will be alright, though I'm sure it will be a rough journey for you.
Your kids are smart and probably know more than you realize. I think that the words will come to you, because you love them. I feel that you will stay away from putting them in the middle and let them know whatever happens you will take care of them, and this isn't their fault IN ANY WAY. You'll answer their questions and love them and be a real parent to them, and that is all you can do.
What to tell the kids? In my opinion, you have to be honest & just let them know that sometimes adults get mixed up & have alot of problems & make wrong choices. Let them know that their dad still loves them but has chosen to be on his own. Tell them that things will change but that your love for them never will & that they are always free to ask questions Or to tell you their feelings. My 2 older kids are from my first marriage & I never spoke ill of their dad until they were old enough to hear the truth. Now they know the whole story. He has never been a part of their lives & so far they have never wanted to try & find him. He lost alot but probably doesn't even care or even realize it.
Ask your lawyer if it is possible to get a search order of the warehouse to get financial records. Perhaps you wouldn't want to do that anyway as I'm sure it would seriously tick your H off but if you fear for your financial situation, it may be worth the effort.
