I made a list of things I needed done. He agreed to the list.  Now he is making excuses for not doing some of the things on the list. He was making all of these promises and now he isnt following through with all of them. That is what I mean by slacking off.

EXAMPLE: Everything we own is in H's name only. I want my name on the house and the car our out of respect for my feelings and because it shows a partnership in our relationship.  He has looked into doing them but has not done them. I asked him what the abstract company said about putting my name on the house and he said "They did not get back to me. But it didnt matter anyway because when we buy a new house your name will be on that." Of course it matters!  We may not move for another year, or we could move next week.  The point is this is OUR house and I need him to put my name it, to show me that I matter, that my feelings are important, and if it is what I need what is the big deal? He originally agreed and now he is making excuses and slacking off. Whether or not we stay together and my name is on the house or not LEGALLY I am entitled to half of it, so that is not why I want my name on it.  I want him to keep his word!

Take Care..Carol~

He is doing many positive things and he is being very good about everything else. But he knows how important these last few things are to me.  Plus, it is important that he keep his word and not make excuses for not following up on things. Maybe it is just the triggers that were setting me off but I really do need to stand my ground and uphold my boundaries. If I dont I will fall right back into the doormat trap and I am not about to let that happen.  It would have been so easy for to say "Ok dear, you're right.  The new house will be in my name and it doesnt really matter". Yep, that would have been the doormat Carol.  Nope...I just cant do that anymore!  It matters to me and I am not going to act like it doesnt and go along with it just to keep the peace. 

I think what is bothering me the most is that he made an excuse for not following through with keeping his word.  If he cannot show me the respect I deserve and keep his word, what am I doing here? I will give him a little more time to keep his promise, but these days I am not as patient as I used to be....I put my life on hold long enough...I will not wait forever.

Take Care...Carol~

You can be nice and yet firm (ha ha....seems I need to just take my own advice re my recent post on Open...).

Anyways, after I kicked my former H out, I also made a list and he also agreed to work on it.  It sounded all nice-nice, and he made some half-hearted attempts, but never followed through nor cared to discuss with me why he wasn't either.  And he was lying in marriage counseling.

Not to say your H will take this route, Carol, -- I hope not -- but it is a possibility.  My former H was acting in crisis mode and in reality was placating me out of his own fear.  He found out that didn't make him happy either.

Jean

Rosie,

You are right!  I have been sticking to my guns though.  I have worked too hard. And it is paying off.  H set up an appointment next week when his dad gets back from Italy, to have my name added to the title of the house

Well, that is another one down and two to go before I allow H to come back home...Carol~

On d-day one, one of the first things I told him was that in order for me to feel like an equal partner in the marriage I need my name to go on the house and car.  He blew me off, I let it drop, and he eventually continued with the A.  This time I wanted to make sure my needs were met and there was balance in the relationship. This was something that was very important to me and everyone told me not to back down until I got what I need.  I finally found the strength to do that. I do not feel I am "one up", but that I am finally getting equal billing here in the relationship. I wanted to feel that my needs are important to him, and for so long I felt unimportant, and by doing this he is proving that my needs and feelings are important to him...not just saying that they are.

H has been staying here for the last 3 weeks or so. I felt he had become too comfortable and there was no incentive for him to do the rest of the things I needed him to do, and that he had agreed to do.  Basically, I wanted him to keep his word. Life was getting to more of a normal level (although a new normal) He asked if he could move his things back in.  I said I wasnt ready for that because I did not feel safe and I still did not trust him enough yet because he had not done everything that he agreed to do.  I told him I also still needed him to do A, B, and C before I could allow him to come back completely, and that we were on a day to day basis right now (which he knew upfront already). He said he understood that and didnt have a problem with how I feel, and that he would keep his word. He then went out and made the appointment. I thought "WOW, he is really trying this time" and it made me feel really good about us. Nothing like last time! So now he is doing A...we still have B and C to go. I feel he is trying to meet my needs by doing A, B, and C, not jumping through hoops. I never looked at him meeting my needs in that way. I felt either he does them or he doesnt and that would tell me where we stand. I was looking for actions and now it appears that is exactly what I am getting. If he is merely jumping through hoops then this is a no win situation isnt it? If I stick up for myself and tell him my needs and he does what I ask then he is jumping though hoops? And I thought we were moving forward.

I feel our motives behind our actions is what is important here. My motive is not to make him jump through hoops...my motive is to feel like an equal partner. And by him adding my name to the house he is showing me that I am an equal partner in his eyes. So then the question becomes H's motive for doing this. Is he doing this just to come back home?  I really dont think so because he is already here (for the most part). Or is he doing this to meet my needs and try to rebuild some of the trust by keeping his word? I feel that is his true motivation.  If so, then isnt that a good thing? He could have kept putting me off like he did last time but he chose to take action. I saw that as a positive sign, not as jumping through hoops, although I do understand the point. 

Take Care...Carol~ 

Lili,

Thank you for the encouragement. For far too long I went along with everything H wanted.  Now I know better. I should question things.  I should make sure that I am an equal partner and have equal say.  He always made unilateral decisions about everything.  Now he is asking me what I think or how I feel.  And that is nice.  And when he doesnt ask me, well now I let him know anyway.  Before I would just sit there and not say or do a thing.  I have learned not to accept the crumbs and to stick up for myself.  It wasnt easy to do...it took me a long time to get to this point. I give myself pep talks, many times by just coming here to vent.  And when I get encouraging responses like yours it really helps me to stay strong.   

My brother is going through a smiliar situation.  He found out a couple of weeks ago that his wife was cheating on him with some college student who has no money. His wife was not paying the bills and had run up all of the credit cards partying it up with this guy, which now he has to pay.  This leaves him having to borrowing money and getting further into debt if he seeks a divorce. He went out and cancelled all of their joint credit cards and joint bank accounts.  He cannot do anything about the ones soley in her name...she has to be the one to cancel them, and she isnt about to do that. And they have 4 kids, so she is going to get the majority of his paycheck.  He says he is happy to support the kids of course, but he isnt going to pay for her and her boyfriends partying.  I feel for him. There is not much he can legally do according to his lawyer until he actually files for divorce.

My H's OW was also a gold digger.  She saw my H as her way out of the projects.  He would pay for her drugs, give her some spending money every now and then, and helped her to buy a car.  And of course he bought her presents, gas, and gave her free food at the pizzeria. Lovely, isnt it?!!! My C would tell me there are three things needed to carry out an A... 1) Opportunity 2) Time, and 3) Money!!! 

Take Care...Carol~

Hey Kid, my C said it takes money, he didnt say who's money or how much, lol. Like in my bros. case...his wife was flipping the bill.  Most of the time it is the man who flips the bill, but not always.  I guess there are some sugar mammas out there as well.

In my H's case he always spent cash, which I didnt know he had since he kept all the finances to hismelf and always had access to cash 24/7. There were no bills or statements I could check.  The only way I would have ever caught him that way was if he accidentally left a receipt lying around.  That never happened. 

Take Care...Carol~

Thank you H2C, that means a lot to me ....Carol~

Thanks for asking Tex.

Basically we are trying to keep the lines of communication open. It is not easy to do with someone who is an avoider. We had a little conversation yesterday and it went something like this...painful yes, but necessary to move forward:

During a long drive, I asked H about his emotional connection to OW, if he was in love with her. He said he didnt know how to answer that. He said they didnt spend enough time together for him to really know...that his feelings for her were based on the excitement of the A, the fact that he had wanted her before when they used to hang out together when he was in high school and now he finally had her. (Talk about painful for me to hear!) He said that they had a relationship what else was there to say?

I asked why he didnt tell me when OW first started showing up at teh pizzeria. He didnt tell me about her when she first came in the pizzeria because he knew where it was going and he knew it was wrong. I asked him how he could cross the line like that?  He said because they were on the same page at the same time and that me and him were not on the same page.  I said how do I know what you wanted if you didnt tell me? He said he didnt have to tell OW.  She just knew everything that he wanted and always agreed with him...they shared the same point of view about drugs, music, and Howard Stern.  I said so you want someone who doesnt have her own opinion or mind, and who just always agrees with you?  I thought how "f-ing shallow is that?". And I said just because you feel we are not always on the same page doesnt mean that our marriage isnt working! It means you have to tell me how you feel...you have to tell me what you're thinking...you have to talk to me and communicate...it doesnt mean you cheat on me!  I told him that I begged him so many times to just talk to me! He said he knows but that he didnt need to talk to OW, she was just there and he didnt have to think about anything.  It was easy to be with her because she didnt make him feel bad about doing drugs, listening to Howard Stern, and that she was very open sexually, unlike me. I said just ebcause I dont like Howards Stern doesnt mean I am not sexually open.  I said I am sexually open with you in the bedroom, that doesnt mean I have to be sexually open in public.  We dont have to like the same things and agree on everything!  That's not real life!!! He said he agrees with the books and says he does realise that it was just a fantasy and only saw what he wanted to see in OW. And he said he knew the relationship would not have survived if he had to live with her everyday.

I am also not sure I like the way H handled my pain. When I told H that it really hurts me, he didnt say a thing, but held my hand.  I said "don't you have anything to say to me?" He said "I don't know what to say except Im sorry". I guess what else could he do...I dont know? I am glad he opened up and I see that as a god sign, but it still hurt much more than I expected it to.

I have moved from being numb to anger...Carol~

<<Not sure you are gonna like this but I believe him. That was his truth at the time.>>

You know Tex, I always respect your opinion and consider your advice.  You are usually right on

<<The fact that he doesn't know how to answer some things could mean he wants to be honest and not give you the answers you wanna hear. As you know I've been on both sides of this. So the fact he laid it out there says alot of positive things in my book. I would have said alot of the same things he did and meant them because that was the truth. >>

I am glad that H was honest with me and I do see that as a positive. Like I said, I knew we needed to have this talk to move forward.  Yep, it hurt like Hell and I wasnt as prepared to hear what my gut had been telling me...but I knew it was time. I am doing OK...trying to process the new info constructively.

<<Not to mention you could be asking questions on things he never thought about. We've all done the "I never thought about it that way" thang. Its easy to say the right thing Carol but that's not what you are wanting. You want honesty. How else can you move on in reconcillion? >>

When I kicked him out and was ready to file for divorce, well, that woke him up and he came out of the fog. I also wasnt prepared for that to happen. I hadnt really thought about it as you say. So I can understand that.  In fact, there is a lot I understand but that doesnt mean it doesnt hurt. And how else are we suppose to move forward except by working through our pain?

<<As a BS its hard to hear those words. "I liked her/him". Its important you don't fall into your own BS fog of wanting to rewrite history.>>

Basically, H was not open to me at the time OW walked into his life.  He had shut me out.  I realise that no matter what I did or said was going to change that. 

<<We all wanna hear "I hate the OP". How do you go from love to hate realistically? I don't know if you can. Its like a BS thinking if a WS hates the OP means they love you. It doesn't work that way. They are two seperate things.>>

I understand what you're saying.  I dont need to hear him say he hates her.  But what I do need to hear and know in my heart is that he loves me and wants me. I am not so sure of that anymore...I have not been sure of that for years (the whole 4 years his A was going on).

<<You said<<<I am also not sure I like the way H handled my pain. When I told H that it really hurts me, he didnt say a thing, but held my hand.>>> I would have done the same thing as your H. A kind of reassurance that I am acknowledging your pain and I'm sorry. What would you have wanted him to do?

Another thing Carol...is it really how he acknowledged your pain or how you reacted to it?>>

That's just it Tex, I dont know what I wanted him to do or say.  We have not been in this position before.  This is new territory.  So neither of us knows the rules here.  I understand that.  I assume he reacted the way most husbands would but at the time it just didnt seem like he made much of an effort to ease my pain. I just wanted something more, like the pain to stop! Probably nothing he did at the time would have helped and I do acknowledge that.

<<Ya know we've all said it as a BS: How could they do this knowing the pain it would cause? Hell I bet in alot of circumstances WE as a BS didn't understand how bad it would hurt. I think most of us said we'd dump their ass. How many of us have seen a friend go through this and thought "I'd leave and maybe done the "you deserve better" speech? Then we don't understand why family or friends say "get over it" "...ya know what i mean"? Can't they SEE your pain? Just the same way we couldn't see our friends.>>

I understand that and I agree with you.  We can never know the pain of infidelity or what we would do until it happens to you.  You have an idea in your head, but actually being in that position changes your perspective. 

<<As far as the Stern thing: I don't think its about Stern ...its about him respecting your boundries.>>

He feels it is his right to listen to Howard and I make him feel bad about it he says.  He feels bad because he knows it's wrong, not because I make him feel that way.  Just like he knew the A was wrong and coming home to me made him feel bad. But he did it anyway right?!!!  This what scares me Tex.  Maybe it is his core values that are messed up, I dont know.  But if he can give up OW, and drugs, why not Stern? Why is Stern so important to him? I feel it is a way for him to continue to have his cake and eat it too.

<<You have to find a way to communicate to him that he understands. Of course he's gonna fight it because like anyone who has screwed up he wants things back to normal.>>

It took me kicking him out and being ready to file for divorce before H understood.  What's it gonna take to get him to see that Stern is only inhibiting our recovery?

<<I know y'all got alittle girl. What if she ended up on his show in 20 yrs? Would he think it funny then? Would he want his sisters or ma on the show?>>

I have been that route with him and of course he says no. Still doesnt change his mind about wanting to listen to Stern.  And even Stern admits he would never allow his own daughters to do such a show or pose in playboy or anything of that nature.  But yet it's OK that he exploits and demeans women. Even my C has mentioned that this is a bad sign about how H views women in general and his attitude towards the opposite sex and his feelings of entitlement. 

 <<My point is boundries mean nothing if the WS doesn't understand why they are there...so open his eyes enough that he's willing to look. You want him to "get it", not feel like he is being punished and controlled because all that leads to is rebellion and resentment and yup...a justification. You want them there in the long run because you want an equal partnership, not as punishment or insecurities, or guilt on either side. Your goal if you decide to stick it out is you want a new marriage with honestly etc...not an old one with chains.>>

I dont know how on Earth I am supposed to do that! How I am supposed to make H see what he doesnt want to see? Just like with the drugs...I talked until I was blue in face and set up boundaries that he just walked all over.  Maybe IC will help him more than me here, cause I have tried.

<<Keep talking Carol. That doesn't mean not saying you're hurt(clamming up) but expressing WHY you are hurt. If its your issue to deal with admit that. If its his then talk some more until its exhausted. The point is keep talking until y'all have no questions(at that moment) left. its exhausting..we all know that.>>

It is such an effort just to get him to talk.  He still avoids a lot although he knows he needs to stop doing that.  And I understand that changing this behavior is going to take time.

<<Right and wrong went out the window long ago. Everyone knows who is who. You are both hurting. Now you want honesty...plain and simple.>>

I have tried to explain that to him as well.  I think like most WS's he is afraid.  And he has lied for so long. Again, another behavior that takes time to change. But I feel he is being more honest these past few months than he has been in years.  And like I said, it is a good thing.

<<I think alot of his attitude and how he feels about things goes back to his childhood Carol.>>

Yes, it does...BIG time!

<<You need to decide if you are willing to invest the time to let him get all that hurt out that he kept bottled up. >>

C did say that it would take a long time to work through everything and that in the end there were still no guarantees.  So I dont know...I just dont know. I love him and do want to be there for him.  Had he not cheated, I would not even hesitate...I would have waited forever.  But now, I just dont know if I can do that.  Is he worth it? Is love worth it?

<<His ma was a saint and the OW were sluts...see where I'm going? He has a either/or attitude...black or white.>>

I get it...same scenario, I know.

<<As much as we resist it we do what we know.>>

Not all of us do Tex.  Some of us are stronger than that. Some of us abused do not become the abusers. Not all those who were cheated on end up being cheaters. Not all of us follow in our parents footsteps.

Just my thoughts....

Thank you Tex. I appreciate your thoughts and you have given me much to think about.

Take Care...Carol~

EDITED TO ADD:  One More Thing About Stern...

The Stern show was on in the car during our drive, Howard started talking to some woman on the phone about how hot her nude picture was that she sent him and he coaxed her into talking about one of her sexual experiences.  She started to describe the acts in graphic detail and Howard and his crew sat there making all kinds of crude remarks.  At that point I turned it off.  H looked annoyed with me so I told him I found it offensive and it makes me feel like you are still cheating on me.  He said there was nothing offensive about it.  And he says "see, this why I say we're not on the same page". What? I dont agree with his point of view about Howard so we are on different pages! I said most women would find that offensive and you mise well be watching porno.  He said it was not visual so it wasnt pornographic.  I said when they are talking you imagine what is going on in your head and your brain creates an imagine, so yes, it is pornographic in my opinion. He said "Ow did not find the show offensive" so I shot back with "OW also didnt care that she was sleeping with a married man". Then of course there was silence in the car.

Tex & H2C...thank you.

<<That's just it Tex, I dont know what I wanted him to do or say.  We have not been in this position before.  This is new territory.  So neither of us knows the rules here.  I understand that.  I assume he reacted the way most husbands would but at the time it just didnt seem like he made much of an effort to ease my pain. I just wanted something more, like the pain to stop! Probably nothing he did at the time would have helped and I do acknowledge that.>>

Chris...did you miss this part?  I certainly acknowledged that there was nothing he could do to ease my pain. And this is new to us.  It will take a few times of open honesty to get the hang of this.  I think what happened between us was pretty normal for most couples trying to reconcille.  Neither of us raised our voices in case you were wondering, lol.  It was a pretty calm exchange...Im just saying it hurt. It would hurt anyone...a pretty normal response. I know he cant take away my pain but I am angry that he caused that pain.  Justified anger, perhaps, but I did not show my anger to him. I did not yell, or freak out, or anything like that.  I cried, and quietly I might add. Again, pretty normal responses.  I also think that anger is a normal and necessary stage to go through...as long as you dont stay there too long and let it turn into resentment.  So far that hasnt happened.  I was numb for so long and now I do need to let it out...I dont want it to fester. 

I am not a machine and I am sure that I will make mistakes along the way...we both will. But he does need to see my pain though to understand the impact of his actions on me and the marriage.  So far, I havent really freaked out on him at all.  Lucky him 

Take Care...Carol~ 

I do understand that Chris...thanks for explaining it further

Take Care...Carol~