Wow! I am not sure where to start. I have not been here for about a year and a half. I shared the site with my WS and she became so hurt, that it became a wedge in our attempt to move our marriage past betrayal. I told her I would stop visiting, and I did.
She was remorseful for a short time (a couple of months) and the hysterical bonding was a highlight. The site helped me through some rough personal emotional times, and many of you are some of the most decent, kind and soulful people I have ever met.
She has not wandered through this period, but our marriage has not grown closer. My constant refrain is that I want to spend time with her. Go for walks. Go out on a weekend night, go grocery shopping, go away together. It is always a battle to get her to commit to spending time with me. When I say I want more out my marriage, she tells me "I don't believe I can make you happy".
I do not look to anyone for happiness. I look to my relationships as an opportunity to complete myself. To share and celebrate with, and to lean on a little when times dictate.
About a year after her extra-marital fling, I went to a reunion. I saw a woman I had an unrequited love with. We began talking, and she shared some feelings and memories with me, until other people came up and we went our separate ways.
I was stirred. I emailed her, and expressed regret and explanation as to why the promise of our feelings had never actualized. We live in different cities, are both married, and I did not bring up the possibility of any fulfillment. I simply wished her well.
My wife hacked into my aol account, and this became in her mind, a more terrible event than her betrayal. To this day, I do not believe I really did anything wrong. Yet I apologized for the hurt I caused my wife.
From this point on, any attempt to really try to connect, to have fun, to liven up the marriage is met with an "I am not ready" type of reaction.
Tuesday marked a major birthday for me. For the past year I have expressed a desire to celebrate by going away with my wife to see if we can have a connection. The promises from her became excuses, until the time away was whittled down to a single night at a spa. I told her for the cost, I would rather save our money and go away. She told me she needed the time away. As I knew it would, even the night away fell through.
When she showed up at the restaurant on my 50th birthday, it was without a present. It was with a card that said the words "Happy Birthday. IOU a night away and a trip."
She had a card for our 16 year old son, which she had signed, and no gift from them.
On her birthday's and special days, I ask the kids what they want to buy her, take them out and shop with them, wrap the gifts with them, and have them make a card for her.
I half-expected this, but the hurt is still there, and this brings back many of the feelings of betrayal.
After not celebrating, I told her I wanted to visit a high school friend who shares the same birthday, and she got angry and told me she feels manipulated, because I asked her on my birthday, and she believed I wanted to go all along. She was taking the kids out of town the next day for 10 days, and I wanted to go visit overnight.
I told her I wanted to celebrate. In the past, I would have listened to her complaints, and probably gone anyway. This time, I didn't. I believe I wanted to feel the hurt, and the pain, and that it would stir me to complete the separation I have been feeling for many years.
Hi am so sorry to hear what you are going through. I went back to the Discovery threads to find your initial post since I could not remember your story. It seems as though there has not been a lot of forward movement or healing for the two of you since then.
Reconciliation is tough enough when everyone is trying their damndest. It's near impossible when one person continues to stonewall. I just past the 3 year mark since d-day. It has been a very long 3 years for us, however, my husband has worked very hard to face his demons. He has made some very tough, major changes in himself and succeeded in breaking some very ingrained habits. It was not easy for him but he did it because he loves me, he knows I love him, he is remorseful, and he wants to be the best husband and partner he can be for me. I am truly grateful for all of that, and yet I have to say it is still tough for me to put the A's behind me. There is still that sadness that it happened at all and that it can never be undone.
Your words and actions, wanting to spend more time with your wife, celebrate special times with her, show your committment to her and your marriage. Hers, not so much. I read in one of your earlier posts that you two were in MC. Had she gone to IC at all? It seems she still has not taken full responsibility for her actions. It seems as though it is still all about her. She is letting you do the majority of the work to make the marriage better. What is she doing? Does she tell you she loves you? Have you asked her what she wants from your marriage? Does she really want this marriage for the long haul or just till the kids or out of the house or whatever? You can only get out of a marriage what you put into it.
You said she hacked into your e-mail. Why? She is the FWS, not you. My H told me that the second woman he had an affair with would check her husband's e-mail all the time to see if he was up to anything. She wanted to see it coming if he was. She was the one having an affair. I don't get that. Same with your wife. Is she looking for a reason to justify her actions? If so, it is more proof that she still has not owned her shit as they say.
I feel for you but you have to know that you cannot save this marriage by yourself. Somehow, some way you need to get her to sit down and talk with you about what both of you want and need from this relationship. No blaming. Just lay it all out on the line. If BOTH of you are committed to it then you need to talk about what each of you needs to do to make it happen. If she is not committed to it, then you have some tough decisions to make. From what I can tell, it has been about 2 1/2 years now. How much longer do you want to go on like this? How much longer CAN you go on like this?
It is incredible to get in touch with caring, intelligent people on this forum.. Thank you for your thoughtfulness.
The past two and a half years have been a time of frustration. She tried IC, but from the little of it she shared with me, the C asked her why she is staying in the marriage, and she did not want to confront that question. I thought the question was dead on.
The only time we seem to be able to communicate from the heart is during MC. I am not in love with the MC, but I have been the driving force to get us there, because I feel it the only forum we have to communicate. She regularly cancels the meetings, and complains about MC because it is at times painful to hear me express myself.
When I say I want more out of the marriage, more intimacy, more time together, more fun, she complains that I am a malcontent, and putting pressure on her. She claims the marriage is fine.
To answer one of your questions, I am not sure what she wants. When I question her directly she will say things like "I want someone who supports me". "I want someone who is behind me." She won't say directly that she wants it from me, or how I can give it to her.
The thing is, she "forgot" to give me a birthday present three years ago, shortly before an ONS and during what I suspected but have not confirmed was another A. At that time I told her how hurt I was, and she apologized at first, but then guilted me about how busy she is, how I don't understand her, and everything she does, etc.
I told her recently that I was starving, and at this point a few crumbs could hold me over, but I am not even getting those.
There are many aspects of your story that are very similar to mine. I went through many incidents like your birthday "celebration" in the years between d-day and separation.
While still together, I once spent 16 hours straight trying to get my then-wife to answer the question "what do you want?"
I obviously do not know you or your wife, but my reading of the situation is that she has all but completely checked out of your marriage. Even though it's somewhat related, it is definitely NOT about an affair anymore.
Since you are here, and she is not: despite what some authors write, you CANNOT fix your broken marriage all by yourself. If one person checks out, the emotional part of the bond is broken even when the family, legal and financial ties remain. You feel that brokenness and are asking for it to be healed.
But you do not have a right to EXPECT any return on your emotional investment from your wife. You do not have a right to expect any change in your behavior to meet your stated needs. Period.
Those are the hard truths I learned in a declining marriage to a checked-out wife.
Only you know what it will take for you to believe that you have done everything possible to create (or re-create) a good marriage. It seems from your writing that you're almost there.
One caution: I would use the two incidents of being pulled toward other people as an indicator and motivator but not a direction for action. IOW, if you get more in crumbs from friends outside your marriage (your old girlfriend and the unspecified-gender friend you wanted to celebrate with), that is a huge message. But I wouldn't chase the old girlfriend.
You seem to have a well-developed sense of what you need from your relationship. When I go back and read what I wrote along those lines in response to our MC, I knew too. So knowing what you want and need and don't get from your marriage is important in making your decision. But coming to that realization (lack of fulfillment) is nothing like the emotional trauma of accepting your wife's rejection. That is still in front of you, not behind you. And make no mistake: your wife checking out of the marriage is rejection.
One day I realized emotionally (rather than intellectually) "she does not want to be married to me and hasn't for a long time". Like me, you may need to hear her say it. Or you may realize it by default, in that she may not protest your decision to divorce, on top of all her other "not doings" when you have clearly reached out to be closer.
That day of realization was horrible. It called much of my adult life into question: did she EVER really love me? What is my part in this? Were we ever really compatible? Was I ever the husband she wanted and needed? Can I be a good partner to someone? (Yes, big, probably not, probably not, and yes.)
It is not your fault if you are not the husband she wants/needs, or that she sought to fill those wants/needs elsewhere. But it may very well be FACT that you're not the husband she wants/needs, and that's a hard truth to wrap your arms around, especially when she simply won't say it even though she acts like it.
Jay, there's a lot here to chew on. Feel free to ask for amplification.
Thank you for weighing in. I am stunned that there are so few posts in the time I have been away. This site is an enormous resource and the wisdom and caring of people like yourself is incredible.
You have asked some great questions. True, I am not without fault in my marriage. Yes, it has been my marriage. Looking back, there are things I wish I had done differently, times I had acted differently, opportunities missed, etc. But I can only move forward now, and as you say, cannot expect change from a person who really does not want or cannot implement it.
Her betrayal was a tremendous impetus of change for me. Through the pain, it opened up a vista of possibility for me. That of moving on. I have been standing (or walking) on a precepice for some time now, trying to push us out of the status quo, but realizing on the other side of this precipice stands an opportunity to find what I am looking for.
I am always happiest when making connections with people. It has served me well in the business world, and I enjoy it in my personal life, as well. Seeing someone who stirred me, in hindsight, were feelings that might have been best off kept to myself.
I was at a vulnerable place, and I expressed myself. Seeing my best friend from high school and best man at my wedding would have been a way for me to celebrate with him.
I have many times contemplated that my wife does not love me. I think she loves a part of me, but I have known for a long time that my feelings do not matter to her. She has said many things that on my worst days on Earth, I would have never said to someone I loved. Her actions and disregard have stung me many times, aside from her betrayal.
I can at this point, answer the questions you have posed. I see her rejection palpably. It is not a new phenomenon. She breastfed our youngest for over five years. In the bed all night laying in each others arms. I pleaded with her to end this. It was not until her betrayal until she finally stopped, and with it wss the message that it was stopped because of me. Not for me, because of me.
It is time for me to seek what I need and want. As Nietzche said during World War II, surveying decimated Berlin, "There is no destruction, only rearrangement."
I reread your response and wanted to tell you that I am happy for you that your husband has been willing to recommit to your marriage and put the hard work in. And that you have been able to forgive enough to let him in.
Nobody can prepare anyone for the travails people encounter in a marriage. and infidelity is probably the most difficult.
Someone told me that the pain from infidelity never completely goes away, it just recedes, and becomes a device that the BS has more control over. IE, we can control when to let it out, and how much we will let ourselves hurt from it.
As Chris stated, my circumstance is no longer about the A, but about the "failure to launch". I am glad your circumstance does not have that obstacle.
Thanks again for being here, and taking the time and investment to weigh in.
"I reread your response and wanted to tell you that I am happy for you that your husband has been willing to recommit to your marriage and put the hard work in. And that you have been able to forgive enough to let him in."
I've often felt throughout this whole ordeal that I could (would?) never forgive my husband. I've also recognized the fact that I have let him in and that my actions show forgiveness although I can't get the words out. I've read enough about forgiveness to realize it is a gift I can give myself as well as him. Part of the problem is I still haven't completely forgiven myself yet for not seeing what was happening. I trusted him so completely that I attributed all the odd behavior to everything BUT an affair. I somehow feel it is my fault that it went on so long because I didn't recognize it. And because of the length of time it went on (about 14 months), the more that happened between them and the more there is to have to deal with and accept...and forgive.
The fact is we are doing pretty well so maybe in time I'll be able to forgive myself and be able to forgive him completely and tell him so.
Good luck with what you are going through. It's one thing to recognize what you need to do and another thing to do it. The surer you become that you are making the right decision, the stronger you will become. You'll get there.
Forgiveness is not an absolute. We don't wake up one morning and have forgiven everything. It comes in increments, and only the hard work of ourselves and/or our partners can help let it in bit by bit.
You may have been an ostrich during this time frame, but I can guarantee you that you are not alone. I was, to an extent, and many others have been. Do you really believe your hurt would be any less had you found out after six or eight months, rather than fourteen?
I can look back at my marriage and assure you there were times when I wish I had acted differently, or came up short in some aspect or other, but it really is about where we are at today. Are you getting your needs met?
Trust is a huge issue after an A. Forgiveness is another big issue. You did nothing wrong during his A, let your forgiveness of yourself go.
You questioned whether the length of the A mattered. When it comes to the devastation and hurt and loss of trust, no. However, when it spans over an entire year it makes every birthday, every anniversary, every holiday a trigger, and every special event that happened during that period becomes tainted. Sigh.
On the upside, there have been a lot of good changes. As I said before, my H really is remorseful and continually shows his love for me in many different ways. He has made some major changes for the good. We communicate much more openly now. Yes, he has been meeting my needs for the most part. He has earned back a great deal of the trust that was lost. It will never be 100% again and I realize now, too late, that it never should have been. I truly believe he will never go down the A road again.
I know it bothers my husband that I haven't been able to tell him I forgive him and he believes (because I have told him) that I never will. Yet the connection and the closeness is there again. I don't know if he recognizes that the process has begun or if he just needs to hear the words. And I just can't bring myself to say them.
I just realized I made this all about me! I'm sorry for going on about me on your thread.
Only a few people know about my H's A's and these same people have not experienced this firsthand. Sometimes it just feels good to be able to talk to someone who has been there and understands. Thanks.
Your compassion and response to my predicament was very selfless.
I am happy to learn and listen to your situation, as well.
As I said, I am happy for you that you were able to get your marriage back on track. An A in some ways is a golden window to rebuild a marriage to new heights. You need to examine if you are getting your needs met, and if so, continue to build.
My M never opened that window wide enough after the A, for the marriage to take purchase.
Someone once told me that I would know when mine was over, if that time came. It would be a subtle shift. I got that "aha" last week. It is a heavy dose of reality to deal with.
Although I know our relationship as parents will continue, I now believe my emotional needs will not be fulfilled through this marriage.
Your post has resonated many things since you wrote it.
What is difficult to fathom right now is how I have been hanging on for a good two years after our period of hysterical bonding in the face of sexual non-intimacy (that is having sex without real intimacy), continual negativity and really almost never being listened to.
She has been trying to tell me for several years that she really does not want to be married anymore, yet when I told her that I am finally ready to hear and accept that, she tells me I am imagining things.
She has often said in MC that "I don't feel I can make Jay happy" (am I the only one who gets referred to in the third person in front of a MC). I was not really able to grip that that is a statement about her. (I would say I do not feel unhappy, I feel incomplete.) If she had told me "I don't think Jay and I can be happy together" (that is a little third person joke), I would have felt it was time to pull the plug. That would have been about us.
I haven't been fed by the marriage in a long time.
So as I stand ready to implement the largest decision of my lifetime, I feel both excited at the possibilities, and afraid and concerned of the hurt, the backlash, the anger this will leave behind.
In my book, being constantly "emptied out" instead of "filled up" is both a necessary and sufficient condition for emotional and legal separation and divorce. When a spouse cannot hear herself and cannot hear you, that's really the end.
You can't force her to listen (or to do anything). All you can do is stop talking and disengage. You can even "take the blame": "I'm sorry I can't be the husband you want and need."
Chris.
ps. In my experience, the "third person" arose in counseling when the MC asked one partner a specific question about the other. In that context it never seemed odd to me.