In fairness, I should also mention that a simple, single, short phone call from my ex yesterday was a significant emotional setback.
She was calling me not one minute after I had driven away from dropping off my son at her place.
Except, it became apparent from the call that she wasn't home and hadn't called him to tell him so...but she didn't come out and just tell me that. And my son went into an empty apartment expecting to find his mother and/or brother there.
Sheesh.
I don't want someone else to have to deal with me when that shit goes down. Maybe that's coloring my attitude a good bit.
<begin Barbra Streisand voice> People-la. People-la who need people-la. Are the luuuuuuckiest people-la in the worrrrrrrld. <end Barbra Streisand voice>
>>Does anyone else besides me think they'd be more attractive, stable, and desirable for someone else AFTER they've got it all put together again?<<
Me? Get more attractive? I don't think so. I figure this is pretty much as good as it gets for me and its downhill from here on out. I better git while the gittin's good.
But all kidding aside, I expect that you're right that there are advantages to waiting to begin another relationship after one has ended. It's just that I've never been very good at planning these things. Good things can happen to a person at the strangest times. I'd hate to miss the boat because of the "two year rule" ... you know the one that says you're supposed to wait for two years after a relationship ends.
BTW, I've looked for the source of the "two year rule" because I've heard it so often. I can't find an explanation for it. I don't see why I can't invent/plan/rediscover in a relationship as well as I can outside one. Besides. RW just happens to be my tea cup.
Chaq'un a son gout, as they say.
In any case, I'm sorry about the runin with the X. I know they can be vexing. I'm guessing we're going to be battling with that for awhile longer but like all things, it will have to come to an end someday.
"Does anyone else besides me think they'd be more attractive, stable, and desirable for someone else AFTER they've got it all put together again?"
Ummm yep but I have worked on me for 3 years now. I think it is as put back together as it ever will be. I don't want to accumulate too much dust or things might start seizing lol
oh and btw Chris sorry about the run in with the ex but unfortunately you cannot make her a better parent, you can only make sure your a good one.
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Sep 5, 2005 10:03 PM
Chris, I'm not planning my next wedding yet - or picking out china patterns or anything... I just want to know that I'm not going to end up that weird old lady who lives alone with too many cats that always ends up on the Channel 5 news!
I am DEFINITELY not ready for a serious relationship but I think someone to hang with and do stuff with would be good, right now.
On another note - how will you KNOW if you're all put together again? Is that one of those things that if you wait until you're SURE it'll be too late? Most days, I feel nearly ME again... What if you meet someone fabulous when you're still a teeny weeny bit cracked, still?
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
I sure understand your feelings on the anger at leaving your son in an empty house. I had something in reverse happen to me after my divorce. My X dropped the kids off a day early (I wasn't home yet) and he stayed overnight in MY BED with his girlfriend. At least the kids weren't alone. LOL. He's still married to her so who am I to talk?
Sometimes we just need to open our hearts up and let love in, screw the timeline. I like thinking I would be free of enough bitterness to recognize a good guy if he came into my life, but some days I just may want to throw something and the next day I may want to hug. That's the part I want to be in more of a balance before I start dating again. But, I miss having a guy in my life and if he shows up tomorrow, by way of fate, then I will go for it. Life is short.
I get what you're saying Chris. I've contemplated that line of thinking too.
However, the 'all put together again' is relative. As they say, you can never go 'home' again. The way things were is just that....the way they were, not are, and never will be again. I don't know if it's really a destination so much as an ongoing journey.
As it stands for me, and as things worked out, I am grateful that there has been significant support, understanding, and the surprise of new love even though I still live in much of my damage.
Perhaps the overwhelming subtext for many of us is:
I've got a lot of life to invent/plan/rediscover and part of this will include relationships with others be they family, friendships, or a new-found cup of tea.
There is a great series of articles on "Starting Over - Being Single Again" which I was referred to from a post here. Basically it gives a plan for feeling good about yourself, so that someone else might want to share your good feeling. I haven't finished all 45 parts yet, but I'm working on it. A bit repetitive, but some really good stuff.
www.divorcerecovery101.com/over_again.html
It is hard to keep to any arbitrary timetable. I've been separated for just 3 months now and haven't even moved to actually start divorce. However, I am finding myself fighting the urge to let a new relatinship begin with a woman at work who seems to be quite interested in me and has suggesting getting together for golf. I know any relatinship begun now would likely be doomed - I'm not completely over my WS yet. And I might want to pursue a relationship with this woman in the future and don't want to ruin that chance by starting something too soon. But it would be so nice to have someone to hold and be held sometime. I know a "platonic" relationsip is possible - just some talk and golf, but I expect it would be a strain to keep it at that level only. Better to not get too close just yet I figure. I am such an open person, I develop a high level of intimacy quickly with people once I let them in.
When we first separated, my WS told me to feel free to start dating. But it doesn't feel right to me no matter how much I want that connection to the opposite sex. I'm not looking for a new relationship, they usually come to me once I put down my defenses. My goal is to be happy by myself. But I can't image two years without letting someone get close. And once that happens, I'm not sure how well you can control what happens to your emotions.
Just my thoughts on the subject as we all struggle to feel ok about ourselves in this world.
Having been through two painful divorces and a few painful break-ups, I know how my heart handles the aftermath now. Each time a relationship has ended someone has come into my life to brighten it up when I needed it the most. I think each relationship teaches us something about previous relationships, sort of like a forward spiral. I believe we are meant to love, our hearts thrive on love--even just someone who is interested in us helps us heal. I don't think I could have healed from those relationships all by myself because I was stereotyping men in a negative way and then WAA LAA there is a guy who proves me wrong, restores my faith in relationships and love.
Who can predict how long love will last? Nobody I know can do that. I am a risk-taker and so I take the plunge again and again. Would I trade the memories and the experiences? No way. My first husband is the father of my exceptionally beautiful and gifted children and he remains a part of my life to this day; my second husband helped give us traditional family values and helped me through the turbulance of raising teenagers and gave me the gift of good business sense; other relationships have left me with special memories that I would not have had otherwise.
Do I have scars? Sure, and the most recent ones are still wounds, but I know I have an infinite ability to heal and move on and I look forward to the next person who can share their life journey with me, perhaps it will last a month, a year, or forever but I am open to that experience. I tend not to think of ended realtionships as failures, but rather as stepping stones that lead me to a better understanding of myself and my reactions. For me, it's sort of a Zen thing--all about learning who I am and how I can be a better person.
I should also say that I have had relationships that have begun while the ended relationship is still finishing...sort of what Rob has said...someone he might be interested in and he is still healing from the ending of the other; another time it was something over five years before I allowed myself to love again. Now I think: I'll get through this, so why close myself up in the process, let others' help....hence my writing on this board.
Oh yes. I sure can. I can read AlphaBits too, especially the ones that always spell OOOOOO.
Doesn't anybody read coffee grounds? That's what I'd like to know.
Rob >>it doesn't feel right to me<<
That could be the best indicator of when it could be time to start seeing people, especially if you believe in the "follow your gut" theory.
Newday >>I know I have an infinite ability to heal and move on<<
That's the amazing part, isn't it? People sure are resilient. At the moment you begin to think that things may never turn around, things begin to turn around.
I don't want someone else to have to deal with me when that shit goes down. Maybe that's coloring my attitude a good bit.
I think I remember you saying in another thread that you (men) just would like acceptance. It stands to reason that once a big rejection is suffered (A) then we are very careful to venture out of our shells and that we want to be "perfect" before we do so nobody will have a reason to reject us again. But, we are human and we will always have "shit going down." From what you have written about the kind of partner you were, you were THERE for your family, through it all, and are still there for your family. Maybe you will find out that someone will be there for you and be glad to offer you a safe place to fall when the shit goes down. That's what a loving partnership means.
In my last relationship he was not there for me when I had a medical scare. That says he didn't want me when the shit went down...so I am moving on rather than make excuses for him like I might have in the past. Not all guys are like that, this forum shows me. And not all women will bail when the shit goes down. It might be time for you to test it out.
"Does anyone else besides me think they'd be more attractive, stable, and desirable for someone else AFTER they've got it all put together again?"
Chris
I certainly don't think your crazy.
I guess I do feel pretty put together though except for one thing. I feel that I would rather be done with my degree before I remarry but I won't let that rule what I do. I guess I feel that way because I don't want a new guy to have to help flip the bill for my education.
As for dating, as Quinn says, I wouldn't have wanted to miss the chance of something really good and I believe I've found something really good in my new relationship. He is an incredible person and I'm lucky to have met him.
I don't feel that I am carrying any huge baggage from my other relationship except minor nuances that I've written about and I think I may carry those things longer than the "two year" rule anyway. I guess I think BF carries more by way of his ex still doing crappy thing to him. I guess she thinks she hasn't tortured him enough.
Chris, do you feel that all women will eventually treat you as your ex did?
Maybe finding someone who has been throught the same trauma as I have is somewhat reasurring and also a good partner to chat with about things??? I don't know but it's working for me and seems to be for Q and RW as well.
It may be that if I had found someone who hadn't been through what I'd been through that it wouldn't have worked now but I suspect that I was just ready in my own time frame and you will be in yours.
Charlie
This message has been edited by charlie288 on Sep 6, 2005 2:08 PM
I was recently "seeing" a guy, J, who has 3 kids. The oldest lives w/her mom and he has the 2 younger boys. On one particularly TRYING evening (daughter having a high speed come apart, one son refusing to go to his mom's and the other sick and throwing up) when J had volunteered to work overtime the next day, I went to his house to offer respite.
I stayed with the sick one so he could go deal with the daughter... and volunteered to go to his house at FOUR FORTY FIVE A.M. so J could work the next morning. He turns to me at one point and said, "What's your angle?" I said, "My angle?" He said, "Why do you do this? Why do you want to get mixed up with a guy like me and all my drama?" I said, "It's just life, I suppose everyone 'our age' has some kind of drama..." He could NOT - still can't - believe that any woman would willingly volunteer to be apart of that life.
It's just life! It's all a trade off. We've all got our crosses to bear and no one is perfect without ANY hitches... anyone over like 20 years old, anyway. Sure, some have more baggage than others and YES, some people need to figure out who they are and put the pieces back together... He's been divorced 8 years so neither he or the ex is raw, but they still have little 'things' that come up from time to time. You can't plan for everything, sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do and hope for the best.
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
Wow…something I’ve been thinking about lately. I’m not “sure” there’s “someone nice/good/better”, nor do I “know [there’s] someone better” out there. And with my track record, in looking at the men I’ve chosen over the years…well, if I don’t change that particular pattern, there isn’t a chance in hell that there’s someone healthier out there for me.
I do have “a lot of life to invent/plan/rediscover now that I’m alone”, and I’m enjoying the hell out of it.
Do you know? I wake up with a fresh mind…no more thoughts of my exh, and the betrayals he committed. I go to sleep in a quiet, peaceful frame of mind…no more thoughts of how my trust was damaged beyond repair. My days are filled with living and learning about a life I never, not once ever, dreamed of having for myself. The awareness and growth I’m experiencing are beyond anything I ever imagined…mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and yes, even physically. I truly feel as if I’m awakening to life for the first time…not clouded by denial, excuses, or reasons why.
Oh, I have moments when I feel saddened, or the grief of a passing, but I’m now able to acknowledge those feelings, and put them to rest. I’m continually amazed at how functional it is to be so much less dysfunctional. LOL. The difference today is that I don’t wallow in the sadness, grief, and pain any longer. Did you know that simply by acknowledging how one feels, allowing the feelings to pass through a natural course, that they can then be…just that…passing? I’ve never known that in all my life, and it’s an amazing, freeing, wonderful thing.
I don’t know, and I’m not sure of anything in this life…not any longer. I do have hope for a better life...though, whether it’s a life alone, or spent with a partner. My skin feels good these days…and what’s inside it is even better.
And like Judy said in another post, I, also, have scars…and some wounds that are still healing. What I’m finally learning is that those scars and wounds don’t make up the total of my life, though they are, and will always be, a part of that whole.
Monica >>Why do you want to get mixed up with a guy like me and all my drama?" I said, "It's just life, I suppose everyone 'our age' has some kind of drama..."<<
Yes, I think it's just life too. That scene reminds me so much of that Ron Howard/Stever Martin film "Parenthood" and the little grandmother who (everyone thinks) is crazy as a loon but who gets to say all the wisest things.
It's a long haul, this infidelity recovery deal, but there are definitely times when it all seems worthwhile.
You are as happy as your most troubled child - Unknown
I have always enjoyed reading the growth you talk about in your life. You describe much of what I feel today: Free, wholesome, optimistic, healthy, grateful, and open to new experiences. Because of that, my life is once again filling up with abundance on many levels. Thanks for being so eloquent in sharing your journey. Best to you!!! You are an inspiration.
>> do you feel that all women will eventually treat you as your ex did?<<
No. I'm more worried about behaving badly myself. I wasn't terribly nice as my marriage wound down, because I was still fairly new at setting up and enforcing appropriate boundaries. I often overreacted to things I didn't like, a major swing from most of my adult life spent UNDER-reacting (by stifling my negative reactions). It wasn't pretty.
I'm not well-off economically, so there can't be memorable trips or even dinners...I'm helping to support one son in college while the other lives with me. I work most of the time (like 6 days, 60 hours a week), and I care for my son and my house and my dogs the rest of the time, so I just don't have time or energy to invest in someone.
I'm also keenly aware that I simply don't have much of interest to offer another person. Without time and money to pursue my interests, they're abstractions instead of realities.
Mind you, I am not whining. I am explaining. This is the life I've chosen, in some cases by defaulting to it...I could have "dumped" my son, I could have gone back to school several years ago when I had much more time away from work available, etc., etc., etc. But there is exactly one person responsible for my life and the way it is: me. So I look for the good things where I can find them.
And frankly, I have a decent (if a bit grinding) job and a decent house and a car that runs and plenty of "things" to make me comfortable...which is a lot more than a million or so people on the Gulf Coast can say right now. I actually do feel blessed and thankful for what I have (after what I have been through in the past couple of years) and I felt that way before the hurricane.
So, this is the long way around saying "no, it's me".
(Cindy expressed many of my sentiments in her post, above, by the way.)
Don't sell yourself short. You think that you have nothing to offer the other sex, I do not agree. You are a giving, caring person who cares more about raising his son properly than being selfish and focusing on you. Your extremely intelligent and you know so many things that others just pass up the opportunity to learn. You are polite and most importantly you are HONEST! Your a handsome guy with alot to give to the right woman when the time is right. One day you might just find yourself heading down a path and realize omg I think I am in love
Chris, somewhere in all of this you need to go out, live life a bit and pursue some of your dreams as well. I know you are on a very tight budget and I know your son must come first. But make a list of what you want and make it a goal by setting a date for it. Find some hobbies that are "me" hobbies that don't involve your child even if it is only a few hours a week. They don't have to be expensive hobbies, just something you find fun. If you were Marie I would suggest shopping for watermelons or H2C shopping for granny pants . Maybe for you it is going into Chapters (do you have that book store) and sitting for a couple hours reading a variety of different books or magazines.
Maybe you do this already. I don't know. I do know that your level of excitedness went decidedly up when you were interested in one fair maiden and for a while I think we got a hint of the wild side of Chris. I kinda liked it
Hugs to you my friend,
We will find our way sometime very soon.
Kid, you're so sweet. YOU don't sell YOURSELF short either. You're so funny and caring (I miss our emails!) - and you have great stories!
I totally agree with what Kim says, Chris. Just as J couldn't figure out 'my angle', there could be someone like that for you! J and I NEVER go out, we hang out and watch movies, sit on the porch, go to the lake to sit in peace... nothing that is hard on the wallet. It's SO not about that. Our most memorable dinner was chicken teriyaki shish kabobs on the grill and fresh veggies here at home... and the brownies that he made and brought over. Our most memorable trip was to the fireworks display on the 4th of July. Those are the things that I take with me...
I'm amazed at all the wonderful people I've "met" here. I really, honestly have learned a lot from you all. I've learned that, as bad as things get, there is someone who has it worse and still yet, there is someone there to say, "Hang in there, it'll get better."
I'm so grateful. And lucky. And blessed. The rest of ME will come together someday.
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
I must add my 2 cents to Kim and Monica's. You are a very intelligent man, caring, your devotion to your sons is most admirable, and...damn, you have great taste in music.
Spending money on a woman is not what's important....special trips and/or dinners. But, like Monica said...the more memorable moments are those quiet times where a connection, a feeling of closeness is felt by those sharing it. Or throwing popcorn to the pooches while you watch a movie together. Don't tell me you don't do that....throw popcorn to them once in awhile? It's the only "human" food my girls get, and they love it.
I thought Kim's suggestions were wonderful. I love going into bookstores and browsing through the books and magazines. Oddly, most don't seem to mind either. Walking? I think I remember that you enjoy that.
My life is what I make of it. I'm choosing to make it real, enjoyable, full of love, prayer, play, and anything else I choose to make it on any given day. My choices, my life. My god that's an incredible feeling!
You work too hard Chris. I know it's necessary, but the "you" time is as important. I know you know that. Just noodgin' you a tad.
I also think that, while your fears of how you might be in a relationship are valid...they are, after all, your feelings...I believe the awareness of those behaviors will set the stage for a completely different level of interaction than you might think. Just a guess...as I don't have the experience myself. However, I am willing to walk through the fears as they present themselves. Egads....what a fright, but what a wonderful place to be.
Judy...thank you. I also love reading your posts...as so many of you do here...your words resonate within my heart, and lift me up when I need it most.
Be well,
Cindy
edited Just cause I could!!
This message has been edited by TurtleShell on Sep 8, 2005 2:32 AM This message has been edited by TurtleShell on Sep 8, 2005 2:31 AM
"No. I'm more worried about behaving badly myself. I wasn't terribly nice as my marriage wound down, because I was still fairly new at setting up and enforcing appropriate boundaries."
Chris
Were any of us terribly "nice" when we had been betrayed, lied to, and played for fools? I know I wasn't and I can look back now and see that I wasn't the same person that I am now. I told my ex back then when we were separating that he turned me into something that I didn't like and I was going to be happy to get out of it. I couldn't have been further from the truth.
I believe that you did what you had to do Chris to surive the insanity of what she was doing to you. I went to a C for 3 months to get that packed into my head so I started believing it myself and I believe it worked for me.
When you eventually meet the type of person who will respect you and treat you fairly again, I think you'll come to realize how decent a person you are. Many of us here think you are from years of posting with you. Money isn't everything. I have had to cut back on lots of things I could afford before but I'm still happy. BF and I often have either his daughter or my kids so we can't do a whole lot of fine dining but we are happy going for bike rides together, parks, the ocean, and more. I'm sure there are women out there when "you are ready" who will love doing simple, cheap things with you and your kids. I feel you are selling yourself short, instead of thinking of all the things you don't have, think of the things that you do have.
Charlie
This message has been edited by charlie288 on Sep 8, 2005 4:36 PM
>>>I'm also keenly aware that I simply don't have much of interest to offer another person.<<<
Chris, Chris, Chris (she says while shaking her head in disbelief) . . . with all due respect, I have to ask: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? From what I can tell you love your kids, you work hard, you are intelligent and passionate about what you believe . . . and you like dogs. I’ve seen women swoon for far less. As I recall, you’ve also mentioned before that you cook. A man who can whip up a hot omelet and a cold salad for a woman at the end of a hard day would be considered a hero by many. As for memorable trips - an evening stroll, a free concert in the park, a trip to Home Depot to check out the latest in laminate flooring (even if you can’t afford to buy) could all be fabulous and memorable with the right person. Some women find a loyal nature and an ability to see life’s blessings far more valuable qualities in a man than the size of his bank account. When you’re ready for a relationship, I think you will have much to offer.
>> Don't tell me you don't do that....throw popcorn to them once in awhile?<<
ROFLMAO. Doesn't everyone?
>>What kind of dogs do you have?<<
A blonde lab/chow mix, a "red" (brown) pointer/retreiver mix, and a black lab/rottweiler or lab/boxer mix. Two are "rescued", literally picked up off the streets by my exwife. The third was from a "free to a good home" ad in the paper when we were down to one dog (after the greyhound died).
I'm looking forward to the day when I get back down to one dog at a time. It's so much easier than being the alpha of a whole pack. (...but as anyone who has opened his/her home and life to critters can attest, getting rid of a pet would be like choosing which child to let go of. You can't do it.)
>>A man who can whip up a hot omelet and a cold salad for a woman at the end of a hard day would be considered a hero<<
Except I'm burned out on it. Used up. Uninspired, and even unwilling to stretch that far for someone. Hell, I only whipped up an omelet and salad for myself once this summer.
THAT is what I mean by "I have nothing to offer someone". My "giver" is all used up. I don't wish to indulge my "taker" side and use someone (who might be interested in me) just to get what I want, without giving back. I need to reinforce my own ability to "make my own happiness" first.
And that brings me back to the main point of my thread. Instead of looking to others to offer me love and fulfillment, I'm looking for ways to be happy and content within my own skin. I believe that when I get good at that again, someone will (as they say) want a piece o' that.
>>Instead of looking to others to offer me love and fulfillment, I'm looking for ways to be happy and content within my own skin<<
Like you, I've thought alot about "looking to others for fulfillment' over the past few years. There's alot of truth in what you write. One of my goals is to be happy and content within my own skin too. I want to be more self-contained, autonomous, not relying on others to give me a sense of who I am. I don't want someone to look to someone else to complete me and make me whole again either. Or, maybe I'm just afraid of being relied on to complete someone else, to fulfill them, or make them whole again. Who knows? I'm guessing I would be a disappointment. I'm pretty sure I'm not up to that task at this stage of my life. Is anybody ever up to that task?
I don't think I have ever heard a woman say they don't know what to offer in a relationship but I hear lots of men say this if they are not in a good financial place..like after a divorce or after changing jobs. For the men I have known it was a source of pride to be able to pay and to be able to take a woman on vacation or out to dinner. When my XH lost his job at age 50 in a downsize he just could not recover. Our lifestyle dramatically changed, and although I did not mind working more, it just killed his spirit to think he was not the guy I married. Everything in our marriage shut down because of it and the biggest thing was sex. I hung in there for six years before I felt, for my own sanity, I had to get out. To this day he has not recovered.
In this last relationship I just ended my XBF has been out of work for a year and a half because of a downsize. This happened shortly after I met him. He is 54 and cannot recover from the trauma of making really good money and now applying for jobs at $8.00 an hour. He frequently would tell me the reason he was withdrawn was because he could not offer me anything. It was not true, he offered me many wonderful things, but in his mind he wanted to be able to be the guy he was when he made good money and had a good job. I don't think he could ever see a future for us based on that. So, I understand how different this is for a guy than a woman.
Like others have said, we women don't need a bizillion dollars,or a fancy dinner, or huge diamonds, but if a guy is not happy with his status then no matter what the woman says it will not matter. XBF would say things like, "I need to get my life in order," and "I can't see past this job thing right now." I did believe him, but there wasn't anything besides support I could do to help. His pride was just down in the dumps somewhere. I hope he can recover but after a while it became a pity party to listen to him blame this and that for his situation. He just needed to reach out to help someone else who really had problems....his were nothing compared to many other people in the world.
My ex husband was fine and content while I was going through school, knowing I was trying to better myself to make a decent living for us. After school I got this great government job and suddenly I was making more than him, travelling for work often, making new co-worker friends and had all these great benefits of a government employee like having every second Friday off.
At some point he became very envious, jealous and started to resent the fact that I worked less and made more than him. What he failed to take into account is that I went to school for 7 years to get there and he didn't graduate highschool! He wasn't making bad money, mind you I don't know what US or wages elsewhere are like, but he was making more than $40,000 a year. I think that is decent for somebody who hasn't got a lot of education, and he really seemed to like his job.
At the same time I was embarking on my new career, he left his old job and started a new one. He asked whether I wanted him to do it and I told him it was completely up to him and left the choice with him alone. I told him I would be happy and support him with whatever he chose and gave him some suggestions about waying pros and cons etc. He REALLY wasn't happy that I wouldn't tell him what to do since I often had to make decisions for him, he hated making decisions on his own. (hmm sense a pattern lol) Ironically his decision led him straight to the OW as it was there that they both worked.
As it turned out the new job was less hours and less pay. A friend of ours was also considering changing the company he drove (truck driver) for.......and I remember sitting in his kitchen and advising him to think long and hard about it (he had 3 kids and a wife to support) because the "new" company promised great pay and lots of hours but that didn't turn out to be the case with Mr. Kid. WELL my ex kinda flipped later and got mad at me because he seemed to think that was an innuendo that HE didn't make enough and HE made a lousy decision. I pointed out no I just want your friend to know the facts before he makes a huge change. Somehow in this I became the bad guy because if I had helped him make the decision maybe he wouldn't be there ***shrugs***
Later, when the affair was revealed he made several comments about how he betted I regretted the fact that he switched companies now since that is where he met OW. I made no comment.
He used to brag to all his friends about how smart I was, what a great job I had, how much I made (that was embarrassing!). I thought he was so proud, then I realized he isn't proud he is JEALOUS AS HELL that I don't need him anymore.
know what Mr. kid...........I DON'T NEED YA and I NEVER DID!!!!
Well, your story is nearly identical to mine, thanks for posting it. Funny how similar people's paths can be. My X was a trucker for awhile too. And now here we are, trying to make a better way for ourselves, by ourselves, and doing a dang good job of it besides. Congrats on getting your education and not putting it on hold...I nearly did that because my XH was so awful about my returning to school, and he was out of a job so my first born tendencies almost took over to take care of things. I was working three part time ones, being a mom, and commuting 80 miles to school. I said I'll do anything but give up school. The marriage did not survive. Thank goodness I persevered with my education.
Kid wrote: <<He used to brag to all his friends about how smart I was, what a great job I had, how much I made (that was embarrassing!). I thought he was so proud, then I realized he isn't proud he is JEALOUS AS HELL that I don't need him anymore>>
OMG, that is my ex to a T! I always had the good job with benefits and good bonuses...he was terminally underemployed (because the didn't want to take a drug test, but that's a whole 'nother post). He said to me after we separated, "You know what Mon, you never needed me anyway."
Maybe I should have started a new thread for this - but it sorta goes along w/Chris' original post - that men think women want to be taken care of in a monetary sense. While it would have been nice is the ex had contributed some money to our household, he made up for it in other ways. Even J, the guy I was seeing said, "Women don't want a man like me, I don't make that much money, I don't drive a new car, I don't have a big house..." I said, "I don't know about ALL women, but this woman wants to be taken care of by having someone great to come home to, to snuggle up with, to do the dishes beside, to help me with the crossword puzzles, to laugh at a silly movie with... all of which we could do with NO money at all."
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
Monica I sort of agree with you.......except I refuse to date anybody without ambition and goals in life. I want somebody who is proud of what they have achieved and wants more from life than just taking care of me. I tried that once and it wasn't enough They need to respect themselves in order for me to respect them. My ex used to say "I am just a dumb truck driver" and I used to tell him you are whatever you want yourself to be.
If you believe that is all you are, then that is all you will ever be. I was just a waitress at a coffee shop before I went back to school, but I had goals and hopes of being something more someday. Your goals, hopes and dreams don't have to necessarily be tied to money either, they could be helping out a non-profit organization, being a big brother....whatever.
So if you have been stuck in the same dead-end job for 15 years with no outside interests, you hate the job but won't do anything about it because you don't have enough ambition or faith in your abilities, then you are probably not the guy for me.
Picky maybe, but at least I know what I want this time
Kid: I sure relate to what you say. Yes, I know what I want now, or rather I know what I will run from. I am breaking old patterns in myself, it really is not about the guys but about me settling for those guys who have multiple problems. I THINK I am wiser now, after this time, but then I haven't (yet) danced with a handsome devil wearing Polo cologne either. I am getting prepared to say no though, how's that? Maybe just one dance, ya, that's it, just one dance. Stay tuned.
"So if you have been stuck in the same dead-end job for 15 years with no outside interests, you hate the job but won't do anything about it because you don't have enough ambition or faith in your abilities, then you are probably not the guy for me"
Kid
Are you saying that if you meet a guy who doesn't have a highly rated job but he IS happy in his work that he could possibly be for you even if he made much less?
I know what you mean about knowing what you want now and I guess what I wanted most of all was someone that was happy and optimistic and I think that goes along with someone who is fulfilled in his job as well. The biggest thing I wanted though was honesty and someone who priorized his family over his job or anything else, so I think there is a balance to be had. Sometimes overambitious people, in their jobs, also don't priorize family and this was something that was a huge issue with my ex. I believe I've found someone who knows how to have that balance now. I didn't "need" him to make a ton of money either.
Charlie: In relation to Kid's statement, I can add that I would have been happy (and was) to pay more than my share of expenses. That might have been part of the problem for me and my XBF. I think he felt less of a man when I paid more, but he really THOUGHT he couldn't pay for vacations, etc (This is BS, I saw his savings account, he was VERY well off), so he would say he couldn't go, which caused huge problems. Do I go, stay home, will this always be our life? It was all about ME taking care of his needs. He could have mowed lawns for cash or any number of things if he wanted to take me out for dinner or on a weekend trip. He didn't WANT to do that...like the book says, he just wasn't that into me, period. Otherwise he would have swallowed fire at the fair or sold his only shoes, or all the things the movies say a guy does if he loves you. LOL>
So, if a guy likes his job as a squirrel catcher, and loves me as well, then we can work out the rest. When a guy whines and bitches there is no money but doesn't want to make any, or any more, then there is the writing on the wall. I was married to a workaholic too, and he loved his job more than me...he was just not that into me either, come to think of it. So, look for happy guys, I say, who are happy being sober, and happy being with me and their family, and my family, and who are honest and give compliments freely because all of this stuff doesn't cost one dime. Whiners are not welcome this time around, nor are alcoholics. And I am hoping for an abundance of money as well so we can plan together how to give it away to do good for the world...and perhaps go on a mini vacation to boot.
Judy
This message has been edited by newday52105 on Sep 11, 2005 11:26 AM
If they were happy in their job and had some sort of other goals, hopes and dreams outside of their job then yes I would consider it.
I also do have to be careful and protect myself since I do have a decent job. I won't become somebody elses paycheque. The guy needs to be able to buy his own toys and pay his own bills.
My friend won't date a guy from online unless he shows his income as greater than $50,000. She thinks it isn't right to date a guy that makes less than what she does. In some ways I do agree there is a balance issue there that I am not too sure I am comfortable with. But I am open to the possibility, where she isn't. I wouldn't rule out a guy solely on the money issue alone but it makes sense that since I am established and very career focused that I date a guy who also is established and has a career that is important to him.
When you don't have children you have other focuses. My focus is definitely on my career and moving up in this big ole ugly world. That was always my focus even when I was married. Yes I want to have a child one day and I will take time out for that......but I am definitely NOT the stay at home mom type. In fact it kinda drives me batty when people have babies and then that is all they ever talk about. It is like they completely lose their own lives. Yep uh huh your babies cute, but I don't really need to listen to the story of how he pooped his first diaper
>>I don't think I have ever heard a woman say they don't know what to offer in a relationship<<
I've never met a woman who was uncertain about what she might bring to a relationship. Women seem to know exactly what they will offer to (and what they expect from) a relationship. Most men I know tend to remain in a state of perpetual confusion, no matter how long they might have been married.
I tried this on to see how it fits >>I also do have to be careful and protect myself since I do have a decent job. I won't become somebody elses paycheque. The gal needs to be able to buy her own toys and pay her own bills<< but it doesn't seem to fit very well - not enough room for me in the crotch area. For all I care, she could spend her days doing meals-on-wheels and teaching adults to read. In fact, that would be downright cool. I don't really care if she "pays her own bills" as long as we live within our means. I drive a 13 yr old 4 cyl pickup with 225,000 miles and plane-jane rims on her, AND she lacks the customary fuck-you-cattle-guard covering the grill. I've discovered that I don't much like worrying about how I'm gonna pay for the piles of "stuff" that I have accumulated. IOW, I won't make a down payment on a yacht if I'm on a canoe budget. If she uses her God-given talents to sit on the couch all day eating bon bons and watching "All My Children" and then demands to be taken to expensive restaurants, that would be disappointing (mostly because we don't have bon bons or expensive restaurants around here).
>>Like others have said, we women don't need a bizillion dollars,or a fancy dinner, or huge diamonds, but if a guy is not happy with his status then no matter what the woman says it will not matter<<
I don't know if most women are anti-materialistic. I do know that some women, like some men, can become extremely materialistic, especially after starting a family. Some women seem to think of very little except getting their hands on a gabillion dollars, fancy dinners, heeyooge diamonds, and fancy cars and ... if they don't get their way .... well lets just say you've never seen resentment like the resentment of a materialistic person whose "needs" aren't being met.
As for job changes - I'll fall back on personal experience. Before marriage, I took some time off from school and worked in some pretty well-paid jobs (for an 18 yr old) like on an assembly line in an auto factory, cab driving, roughnecking on oil rigs etc. For the first 10 years or so of married life, my X was the primary bread winner partly because I was going to school. About 10 years ago, my earnings crept ahead of hers for the first time in a long time. I've often wondered what impact that had on our marriage. Her spending habits sure changed. Jewelry became took on an importance that was beyond my understanding. She seemed very proud of my job title but at the same time, I felt something else - jealousy, resentment or something I don't know. In any case, I believe that the dynamics in our marriage changed when the difference in our incomes changed. Perhaps without realizing it, I tried to play a bigger role in deciding how our money should be spent. It's hard to say. In any case, if a marriage is fragile, it will have a hard time changing with external circumstances. At the time, I had no idea that our marriage was fragile. It seemed rock solid to me but then, when it comes to marriage, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer.
When I grow up, I hope I figure out what I want out of life. Still, I agree with whoever said that it's important to finds someone who has at least some idea what they want. I've found that people who don't know what they want can be awful hard to please.
>>Yep uh huh your babies cute, but I don't really need to listen to the story of how he pooped his first diaper<<
Twenty years ago, I could have written that. Eighteen years ago, I was boring the pants off anyone who would listen with my stories of first belches (it kinda sounded like Dada) and my boundless fascination with that first, yellow-green, slimey, almost odorless poo poo.
I flash back occasionally to an unguarded conversation two of my sisters had in front of me at a family reunion 5 or 10 years ago. It was about friends they have in common (they're less than three years apart in age and still live in the area where we all went to high school, and the younger sister is married to a HS classmate of the older sister).
They were basically comparing the husbands of their friends based on what the husbands could/did provide, using what their friends had told them and what they had observed for themselves over the years.
Since my sisters both grew up in the same tight-budget, non-materialistic family home as I did, I have no reason to think that the differences in our outlooks are anything other than gender-based. (One sister has always been a stay-at-home mom and the other has always worked at least part-time.)
Or perhaps BECAUSE we grew up in a "traditional" (one-paycheck) family where dad was the provider, we all have that same outlook but just look at it from opposite sides of the "gender gap": we all expect a man to be a provider. That would mean it's okay (to my sisters) to insist on it, and it's okay for me to internalize that pressure to perform.
As Q wrote, it seems also to me that women know exactly what they want from a man and their relationship with him and aren't usually shy about making that known in verbal and non-verbal ways.
In my marriage, it was clear and agreed that my wife would always have a career (and income) of some sort. Hers was higher than mine only for the last two years we were together...which may have contributed to our breakup. She pulled the "I make the most money, so I make most of the money decisions" crap, reinforcing (or living out) the old stereotype that the man's income is "our" money, but the woman's income is "hers". That's something I never did when I was making two or three times as much as her, though I probably would be far more guarded about "my" money in a future relationship.
Chris.
ps. No whiners and no princesses for me. I joke sometimes about making one of those "red circle with a slash" signs with a tiara inside it to hang over my bed...
edited for a misplaced "only"
This message has been edited by chris924 on Sep 11, 2005 5:08 PM
I was raised in a "traditional" household. My dad got a paycheck but my mom worked longer hours for no pay. My dad worked for a farmer...gads what hard work he did. But my mom also worked in the fields and took care of the house and kids, and after my dad's work was done at night my mom was still working doing dishes, etc. I remember wanting two things: to never weed another garden and to have a job with benefits and days off. I can remember my parents having only one "vacation" of more than two days.
I would like a guy who has enough money so I don't have to downsize my modest lifestyle. I am not materialistic (or a princess LOL---but WHERE did I put that tiara??) compared to most of my colleagues. The TV I have is one I got from my grandma after she passed on years ago and I don't even have cable; I drove my last vehicle until it had 165,000 miles. But, when I want to spend money on something good, I do it. Good wine, travel, occasional nice dinner, my expensive perfume.
Obviously, most of us have certain ideas about the roles we play and how we handle money. It seems that people who have changed their roles have had some resulting conflicts and even divorce. One thing about being really young when you get married, many of these things are not important because you are so focused on just making your way toward mutual goals: children, house, jobs. It's once we settle into a lifestyle and then someone changes that the problems start showing up.
I understand completely, Judy, and I agree. I don't want to eat out with someone at a fast-food joint, or even a chain restaurant, and I sure don't want to cook for her. So given my present economic circumstances, I pass.
There are a couple of "luxuries" I pay for, and they're entirely for my sons and me: football tickets and race tickets. So I guess I am "selfish" with my money.
Does that mean I'm out?! My Princess of Quite A Lot is a Mary Engelbreit character, I loved the picture... My mom is The Queen of Everything - another ME character, so that makes me the princess. Plus, I have 2 brothers and 2 nephews, with no other girls in the picture at the moment.
That being said...
I splurge on things like candles, shoes, and celestial candle holders for my house - my guilty pleasures. I have a five year old car (that currently has a broken tail light cover due to an unfortunate backing incident at Subway!) and a cozy 2 bedroom house.
I think you're right about some women being about what a man can do for them - isn't that kind of "traditional" thinking? In my grandparents time, the woman wasn't expected to work, her job was to keep the home fires burning. I think, in my world, that every generation gets a step away from that thinking. I personally have no friends that don't work - and many of my friends make more than their husbands. Being "taken care of" hold zero appeal for me, I would feel like I wasn't doing my share.
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
>>It's once we settle into a lifestyle and then someone changes that the problems start showing up<<
Amen to that. The problem, it seems to me, is that marriages are like sharks ... they keep moving or they die. People don't stop changing when they get married (although my neighbor Alphonse doesn't seem to have moved from his easy chair in the living room for the past 10 years or so).
This message has been edited by Quen10 on Sep 11, 2005 7:55 PM
I am far from a princess and bordering on Shrek's wife lol
Anything I want I want to be able to buy myself! That's why the education and the good job. I refuse to ever rely on another man to be my provider.
Well I admit I generally buy a new vehicle every 5 years it is for obvious reasons. I live in freezing cold temperatures and cars go through massive wear and tear here. I need something reliable that will get through the winter, summer, spring and fall. You wouldn't want to be driving in -40 on the highway in a snowstorm and have a maintenance and repair issue, would ya?
Now my friend on the other hand (not that I am certain I can call her that since I am losing respect for her rapidly)............dated a guy she knew from the beginning she wasn't fond of just long enough for him to take her to vegas on a trip of a lifetime. She had never travelled before so she knew what she wanted. A week after the trip she decided he wasn't right for her and the "trip made her realize that" lol
Yep you guessed it, they broke up. Pay for a trip to Vegas and get dumped a week later. The funny (sad actually) thing that happened is while she was there she won $700 US and wouldn't even give him $20 to gamble with since he lost all his change. Yep she came back with it and never paid a cent for the trip......no dinner, no lunches, no gambling, no hotel. NOW that is a princess! Oh and last week she announced that if anybody wanted to marry her (2nd marriage) that they better be sporting a HUYYYUGE wedding ring since she "deserved it". She left her first husband the week of xmas in 2002 because he lacked ambition lol We haven't been getting along so well lately.........gee wonder why shrugs
<<I don't know if most women are anti-materialistic. I do know that some women, like some men, can become extremely materialistic, especially after starting a family. Some women seem to think of very little except getting their hands on a gabillion dollars, fancy dinners, heeyooge diamonds, and fancy cars and ... if they don't get their way .... well lets just say you've never seen resentment like the resentment of a materialistic person whose "needs" aren't being met.>>
That sounds a lot like my BF's ex who is now living with her OM. She left a good man who is intelligent, handsome, thoughtful, respectful, humble, a great dad, close to his huge family, fun, and optimistic with absolutely no issues like addictions and the best smile and eyes on the planet and I wouldn't call him poor either just to hook up with a man who makes over $250K a year and lives in over a million dollar home. She thinks her OM is more assertive than her ex and she was looking for that I guess. She wants the traveling life style, and they do quite a bit, at the expense of her daughter. She continues to try to make BF's life hell in stupid ways like never calling back when he wants to see his daughter and then getting mad at him and blaming him for what she does when he never does it to her. Crazymaking crap
I'm willing to bet she'll figure out how screwed up that all is some day when she's old and gray and perhaps not even happy. Meanwhile, I will enjoy this man for the guy he is and not how assertive he is (I had that in my last relationship.) While he could afford that nice new car, he drives two slightly old and banged up ones and I could care less. He likes to invest and save money so we make a good pair in that respect.
I'm not saying we don't ever do nice dinners, but not that often and mostly with kids to kid places but I think we both like to save money. I have a few things that I like to spend money on like my hair and a couple other things I can't give up but my ex was the big spender in our relationship and I was the only reason we saved some of our money.
The funny thing is that I have two sisters who spend like mad, out of control. The most out of control one buys her 12 and 13 year old daughters $100 purses, other expensive cloths and Victoria's secret undergarments and the other just likes to waste money on car after car if she isn't happy with the first. I think she bought 3 within one year trading two in because she just wasn't happy. They weren't cheap vehicles either. Both of them work very hard though to support their spending. I just think how much better off they would be if they could curb their spending but I shouldn't be the one worrying about them - LOL. They will probably both end up being millionaires and I'll end up poor.
I'm not sure how two of us ended up materialistic (one somewhat and the other much more) and the other two not so much because we all were worked very hard as youngsters to get what we wanted and they taught us to value money fairly well. We knew you had to work hard to earn what you wanted and we didn't have a lot of money growing up. So is it really your upbringing that caused you to be materialistic or not or is it more that when you have lots of money, you tend to "become" more materialistic?
The more you have the more you want? Keeping up with the Jones? Maybe if you never had anything you aren't materialistic cause you never know what your missing. I grew up in a comfortable family. My parents never had a mortgage and built their house with the help of family and friends. They were given the land. They bought a new vehicle every 4 years without fail since my dad was a sales rep for a major automotive industrial company. However my mom spends money like it grows on trees, and unfortunately I have inherited some of her traits UGH! Living by myself has been an eye opener since I don't have two incomes to spend.
When I left home at 17 I lived in a gross apartment in a bad area of town with a guy that used to beat the crap out of me for fun. Our furniture consisted of milk crates stacked with plywood on top We ate lots of kraft dinner cause it was cheap to buy by the case and lots of no name brand weiners. I have had stomach problems ever since hahahha (seriously!) McDonalds was our special dinner date treat lmao.
I guess I have seen both ends of the spectrum. Perhaps it has shaped who I am that is hard to say. In some respects I have a bit of a materialistic streak (ie cruises, vacations, shoes, clothes) but in other ways the simplest things give me great pleasure (the sunset at camp I posted). I don't want jewellery since I rarely wear it except for an engagement or wedding ring. I certainly don't expect anything huge, but big enough to see lmao (ok not walmart boys - cubic zirconia will not do ). I would like a fancy house with a pool, sauna, jacuzzi and a couple bathrooms, but only if I can have the maid to go along with it. Or for that matter a pool boy But I realize that dream is fairly unrealistic. I would settle for a 3 bedroom house with a couple bathrooms, but I can afford that myself.
Does that make me materialistic......hmmm not sure?
charlie >>So is it really your upbringing that caused you to be materialistic or not or is it more that when you have lots of money, you tend to "become" more materialistic?<<
I'm not sure. I do think that if you survive a traumas like infidelity, then you tend to view the world a little differently. Living in the biggest house on the block moves down the priority list. I want things like kids who are attracted to solid, healthy relationships. I notice old married couples who are not at all wealthy but who are devoted to each other. "It's a Wonderful Life" is still a great movie, even if it is in black and white and gets a little sentimental at times.
But your point is a good one. It's much easier not to value material things when you don't have many. The people who had enough money to get out of New Orleans value property rights. For the people who were left behind, there were some things that were more important than property rights.
"I do think that if you survive a traumas like infidelity, then you tend to view the world a little differently. Living in the biggest house on the block moves down the priority list. I want things like kids who are attracted to solid, healthy relationships."
Yep, I tend to agree with you Q. I also think when you survive divorce, you tend to view it differently as well. When you lived with a very selfish person, you value someone who gives more. When you lived with a liar, you value honesty more. When you lived with a person who was too aggressive, you value less agressive partners, etc. You get the gist.
I also want my children to grow up knowing how to prioritize family and treat them well b/c I had an ex who didn't know how. I still worry about the affect he is having on them when they are with him.
"It's a Wonderful Life" was my FIL's favorite movie and we watched it every Christmas. It was often my FIL and I who watched it and I think that was b/c he and I were more alike and valued honesty and integrity and my ex and his mother were more alike and didn't really value that much. I guess the movie didn't mean much to them, they would both complain about it.
Complain? About "It's a Wonderful Life"? At Christmas?
Oy vey! Who are these heretics?
My other all-time favorite Christmas movie is "A Christmas Carol", a B&W version with Alasdair Sim as Scrooge. The music is great too - the melody from "Barbara Allen" is played in the background at key moments during Scrooge's transformation.
I got to thinking about this whole jewelry thing. I got divorced in 1990 and stopped wearing any rings, since I heard that that was one thing guys looked for to evaluate whether or not you were single and it didn't matter which finger the ring was on. I wanted to be really clear that I was single (smile).
I always look for a wedding ring, but know many people who don't wear them at all. And since I have been through two divorces I think it very unlikely that I will do any legal vows again,,,so I might never have another nice ring unless I buy it for myself.
Do people exchange rings if they aren't getting married?
I have this romantic image of a commitment ceremony, with rings, and without the whole legal tie-ups. Anybody else think along these lines? I love the look of a wedding ring on a guy's hand, and we don't usually know if it is legal or not, but it sends a message nonetheless.
Used socks and undies go in grey Rubbermaid tub. Clean socks and undies go in blue Rubbermaid tub. Rubbermaid tubs go in closet.
When blue Rubbermaid tub is empty, explore contents of grey Rubbermaid tub. There's sure to be some perfectly good stuff dropped in there prematurely.
When blue Rubbermaid tub is empty empty, dump contents of grey tub in dishwasher ... I mean ... clothes washer. Set washer to "heavy duty". When complete, dump contents of washer into drier. Dry. Dump contents of drier into blue Rubbermaid tub. Repeat.
Hey. It's workin for me. Okay?
This message has been edited by Quinn0526 on Sep 13, 2005 2:12 AM
I grew up bathing in a washtub....I am telling the truth. Lived on a farm, very poor and no running water and Sat mom heated water for a "tub bath." I have friends who live here in the northland who choose not to have running water or electricity. Not me, no way. Sometimes three showers a day for this girl.
Q: that laundry tub deal thing sounds good to me. I hate laundry and loading the dishwasher, so repetitive, it seems you never get anywhere, every week it's the same thing. I am a spoiled girl to even say this.
>>I also want my children to grow up knowing how to prioritize family and treat them well b/c I had an ex who didn't know how. I still worry about the affect he is having on them when they are with him. <<
Definitely a concern when you want your kids to have values and half the time they're living with trailer trash who doesn't have the morals of a pea.
I do know that I too am at task because I'm not perfect and have some things to work on myself to be able to set a decent example for my children. Smoking, some illicit hemp experimentation from my not too distant past, foul language, and not going to church. As a single father now, I have myself to suck it up and be an even better person because the examples to which they will look will be amplified being from a broken home. I think they will watch more closely their role models than they would have still in the 2 parent household.
Your post is a great example of how a painful situation can grow into something positive with how you have decided to look at being an even better father. That takes some courage and my hat is off to you!!
And it's ok to be angry too. Sometimes I storm around here enough to scare the cat. LOL
Charlie, the "clean-laundry storage unit" (clothes dryer) lives in my master bath, which is off my bedroom.
NO visitor goes there.
Alas, it's the abundance of clutter and dog-hair tumbleweeds that keeps me from having guests. I keep saying it's because we're moving soon, or because I'm working 6 days, 60+ hours a week, but the reality is I hate housekeeping chores so I let 'em slide. I'd rather spend what time I have with my son and my dogs and my friends, including the folks here. If I get together with friends, it's "out".
"I have myself to suck it up and be an even better person because the examples to which they will look will be amplified being from a broken home. I think they will watch more closely their role models than they would have still in the 2 parent household"
I tend to agree with you. I've always prided myself of being a very interactive parent and good role model and yet I find myself trying to "outdo" the way I was before. I probably stress myself out more this way but... I'm already seeing my kids comparing the two of us. My little one says that "dad yells a lot" and that "you are way nicer mom." The funny thing is that I am not a pushover mother, I am fairly strict yet full of love for them. A couple of weekends ago, he asked if he could stay with me on my ex's weekend and his brother could just go. I felt bad when he asked that. I told him that dad wanted to see him too. I know why he is asking but can't do a thing about it. Actually, I did do something. I talked to my ex about my son's feelings and also explained that his yelling had a lot to do with his feelings. He told me he would work on it but I sense that if he isn't happy, and I don't get the feeling he is, that he will continue to yell. My 2 cents anyway and I hope I'm wrong.
STBXW has said she knows that the girls, especially the 6 y/o will cry for her Daddy. And I know that soon they will be at my place and they will cry that they want to go "home".
They need to respect themselves in order for me to respect them. My ex used to say "I am just a dumb truck driver" and I used to tell him you are whatever you want yourself to be.