So I finally met with my lawyer and she is starting to draft the settlement agreement we will propose. She asked me what I wanted in terms of custody and visitation. I know I want physical custody, but I hadn't really thought about the visitation before, particularly in regard to holidays.

My disabled son is 16, but has a fairly active (supervised) activity schedule, and my daughter is almost 13 and has a very active social life. I don't know how much structure you can really put in since they have so much going on. Plus, my STBXH will probably see a structured arrangement (such as every other weekend and Wed night) as too restrictive for him, as he is more the spontaneous type. And in any case, the kids' schedules change weekly.

On the other hand, I don't want to have to discuss it with him all the time, remind him of when he said he would take them somewhere, argue with him about it, etc. and I will need an occasional break from my disabled son. My H is very controlling so it sort of leaves an area where he can try to control my life.

The other thing is holidays. The only holiday I really care about is Christmas. But, the kids will probably want to see their dad as well. Again, I don't mind being flexible, but I don't want to make it so ambiguous that it becomes a source of stress for both me and the kids. Would it be mean for me to say that I want them Christmas Eve night and Christmas morning, and if he wants to see them he can on either afternoon or Christmas night? What about other holidays? I'll just add here that my lawyer assures me that I won't be divorced until sometime in 2008 so it doesn't apply this year.

What did those of you with teenagers put in your agreements?

(edited for typos)

Rosie

I have 11 and 12 year olds but even they have a lot of activities and I, like you, also feel I need a break every now and then from my sons, esp. the one with a disability even though I love him dearly as I know you do.

"On the other hand, I don't want to have to discuss it with him all the time, remind him of when he said he would take them somewhere, argue with him about it, etc."

I have deal with this for several years and seen people that don't have agreements and people who do and the ones who have a set agreement have FAR less problems than the ones who don't. I dated a guy who never had anything set and I can't tell you the frustration I felt when I didn't know what the heck was going on when I had time off. It made me not want to date him. It also allowed his ex to manipulate the hell out of him and she did. Regardless of the kids schedule, you will both have to do things with the kids or take them places and when you know who has them when, it is far easier. My ex and I have done quite well. We each have either Christmas or Thanksgiving each year and it alternates. It isn't easy being without your kids for Christmas some years but it's better than getting in arguments as my ex BF did with his ex when she was late, and she did this often. They split their holidays and it was always a problem for him.

"so it sort of leaves an area where he can try to control my life."

I've seen this first hand.

"Would it be mean for me to say that I want them Christmas Eve night and Christmas morning"

I wouldn't consider it mean but unfair if it were me. Why not one Christmas eve night and the other Christmas morning? The next year you switch.

This is most certainly your decision but it is hard when you don't have a set schedule and I've seen it happen often.

Charlie

Rosie,

My state has a "default" standard, the every other weekend and Wednesday night thing, which seems more for young kids than teenagers. It also spells out holiday and school-vacation schedules in extreme detail. Even though I have primary physical custody of my younger son (joint legal, though), I have always thought that standard provided for too little time with the non-custodial parent regardless of which side of the equation I'm on.

My ex and I lived fairly close until last year, and for a long time our younger son spent some time with each of us six or seven days a week...which helped him (and us) to adjust. We did have to communicate a lot, but it was in the framework of a very specific agreement about which nights and what times.

Now that he is 18 and has a car, he has a far bigger say than before. Like all teenagers getting ready to fly the coop, he prefers to spend most of his time with friends on weekends and has after-school activities and a job during the week. Most of the schedule is with him, rather than his mother these days. I am glad for that.

I believe there is no way to avoid the need for continuing conversation, and some will be argument. Divorce doesn't change the people, only the legal status.

As far as holidays, it is unfair in my book to hoard Christmas (if both parents observe the holiday; if one is non-Christian, it shouldn't matter).

Good luck. Working out the kids' schedule was the most contentious point in our mediation.

Chris.

With my ex's visitation (he has a daughter from a previous R), his lawyer advised him to spell out everything to the Nth degree. His ex once got an emergency hearing because she took "a week with the father" to mean five days - a work week. The judge told her that, by definition, a week was seven days... that is how nit-picky she was. We tried to avoid the court to allow flexibility in the visitation, but it just did not work out.

We split the holidays (NY Day, Easter, 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, T'giving, and C'mas) on an every-other-year basis. We also included the child's b-day, Mom and Dad's b-days, and Mother's Day/Father's Day. We agreed on whoever had Thanksgiving that year would get all day on Christmas Eve, to return the child at 9 pm. Basically, after the holiday splitting, he got 2 non-consecutive weeks in the summer and 2 consecutive weeks, every other weekend from Friday at 6 to Sunday at 8, as well as every Tuesday night from 5-8. They also added verbiage about claiming the child on taxes, because prior to that, it was at Mom's discretion... and that didn't work, either.

Both lawyers and the judge advised to even include drop off/pick up times to minimize the bickering. Mom's attorney also added that this was the minimum visitation, that other days could be negotiated if something came up. The child is 13 this year and crazy busy - but for now, she still keeps her assigned times with her Dad, who lives an hour away.




Monica

"I have all I've waited for and I could not ask for more"

For me, I had a smart lawyer, and a former H who didn't care.  And that was a blessing. The divorce was uncontested and he didn't even show up for the court appearance.

I have sole custody, and he has visitation.  The holidays are split up like those above me wrote (alternating holidays, alternating years).  Tax deductions were split, too.  He has visitation every other weekend, from 6 p.m. Friday until 10 a.m. on Sunday.  With 60 days notice, he can have them for vacation for up to 2 weeks.  However, in the 4 years that this agreement has been in effect, he has never requested them for vacation.  He calls to have them over for dinner during the week about 2 times a month and, if they are finished with their homework, they can go.

Our kids don't really like to go to his place -- well, my daughter does, because she can watch as much cable television as she wants at his place (we don't have cable) while her father is off in lala land, which is a good deal of the time.  But she still won't go anywhere with him alone.  They keep nothing at his apartment except a set of toothbrushes, and there is only one bed and a small cushion on the floor for the 3 of them to sleep on.  The feeling they get is that they are always "visiting" -- that they don't really belong there.  They can't even go into the fridge to get something to drink there without specific permission -- and they are 12 and 8.   And they often feel like they are interrrupting him (hhmmmm, I know exactly what that feels like!) because he is often sleeping or playing on the PC with his headphones on.

Ooops.  Got to rambling.  But I guess their father's nonattachment issues can be a blessing in the way that it minimizes the amount of arguing involved.

Jean

Thanks for the feedback, it is helping me think things through. It is hard with the older kids, they have a lot of plans for which they only need to be dropped off and picked up, so that really isn't time with the parent. Also, my son really does much better 1:1 with a parent. It really isn't like with smaller kids who are so reliant on the parents to control their entertainment.

I understand how not having things in black and white could cause problems. However, I just don't see any way around being flexible. For example, my STBX likes taking my son the the HS football game on Friday nights. I don't want him to feel like he can't because it isn't "his" weekend. And my daughter sometimes is invited to spend the weekend at her friends' vacation home. Not really fair for STBX to miss "his" weekend with her. I have been taking my son to his baseball games, but there really isn't any reason why we couldn't both be there.

I am trying to put aside what I want and need and think about what is best for the kids. It might be different for each of them. For example, my son does better with a schedule he knows about in advance. He gets stressed with too many changes. My daughter makes plans at the last minute.

We have been so distant for so long we have not done things as a family for a couple of years. So just continuing the way things are with us just deciding who will take which kid when, if we can communicate, would PROBABLY be best for the kids. If my STBX were to remarry (or if I did) that would be a change in circumstances and we could renegotiate. A new wife might want things to be more predictable.

One thing I was thinking of is having my STBX alternate weekends with each kid - just my son one weekend and just my daughter another. Same for a dinner night during the week. While I would like to have a free weekend, the fact is that my daughter doesn't need much supervision and in any case I have so little social life it doesn't matter.

Holidays are another matter. My STBX doesn't cook, doesn't make plans - I have no idea what he would do with the kids for Thanksgiving and Christmas. On the other hand, even though we are close to divorce I told my mom to go ahead and invite him to her Thanksgiving dinner. I don't mind being around him in small doses. But he might want to go elsewhere when he starts dating again.

Just thinking out loud and trying to do what is best for the kids. I actually just asked my STBX to think about how he would like it to work. He said he will do whatever I want (sigh, if only that were the case).

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will have to think about it some more.

Rosie, the point I didn't make very well is that it's easier to start the discussion about scheduling from an agreed structure. You can write the football thing in. You can write the one kid at a time thing in. After a while it won't be such a big deal anyway.

I would caution you...I didn't have much of a social life for the first year of separation. That gets old, though, and I eventually wanted some Friday and Saturday evenings free...then whole weekends. Don't get stuck imagining that your feelings or your circumstances will never change...they will.

Chris.

I second what Chris says about having an agreed structure, but my separation agreement actually starts from the other end.....   Our agreement states that "Holidays and Days of Special Meaning will be agreed upon by the parties.  If the parties cannot agree, they will adhere to the following schedule....."  Then it spells out all the holidays and who gets who when and for how long.   This way, the scheduling is flexible, and usually if we change anything, it's because something is better for the kids.  But... if we cannot agree on the days and times, then we refer to the agreement. 

It has actually worked out really well for me.  And yes, I do enjoy my "time off" when they go with their father, even tho it's never a full weekend.  But also I'm always available to my kids if they don't want to go .... such as when my daughter would be alone with her father.

Jean

what you are saying, and I really like Jean's suggestion of agreeing to be flexible but having a fallback structure for when we can't agree. I have to work on Saturdays and in the evenings at times, and I travel overnight a bit as well so I would like him to take the kids those times as well, so that is a start for when visitation would take place.

Thanks so much, your comments have really helped.