...Or expecting too much too quickly? Ive been asked to put this on the open forum to elicit some words of wisdom from both sides of the fence. Its one month almost from D-Day and after a shaky start my wife is being the model wife, she is both remorseful,honest and reassuring (8 month affair with an ex-friend of mine, story is 'here goes...' on recovery forum), I feel she is beginning to realise how stupid she has been to risk everything for the lying words of this OM who was only ever interested in one thing.
Today at counselling our counsellor, who is very good, asked her when we seemed to come to a proverbial brickwall,'if this OM came to your door would you have the strength to turn him away, to say no?' and she says....weepily...'I dont know?'!! This man has not contacted her, nor her him for almost one month now and she is still thinking like this. I just felt I was banging my head against a brick wall and was initially angry but I have calmed down now.
I still dont know whether I want to carry on together but Im trying,I think thats my prerogative is it not?

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

"This man has not contacted her, nor her him for almost one month now and she is still thinking like this."

Well, I sure understand your reaction to this Jon. You never wanted anything like this in your life, and now naturally expect big changes quickly.

When I went through it and we tried counseling I wanted the whole reality of my XH's affair to be instantly, thoroughly, and nothing less than surgically removed.

A month isn't very long for changes though.

Are you sure about the length of the affair, when it started, how much contact, and all? A lot can happen in 8 months--or less. My X's was 5 months along before I busted them. They made some serious headway into undoing my life in that amount of time.

I am a former betrayer. My story is on the Members Forum under Gettingthere if you think it might help you understand what your wife is feeling. I have a little different take on your wife's answer in counseling today.

You asked>>>Am I wasting my time or expecting too much too quickly?>>

Whether or not you are wasting your time is a question I believe only you can answer. IMO a month is too soon to determine that though. Are you expecting too much too quickly? Yes, I believe you are. It sounds like your wife answered the counselors question as honestly as she could. Had she answered that she "could" turn the OM down if he walked through the door then I would have bet you big money that she was lying. Most people who have a strong emotional attachment to the OP have a hard time cutting that person off totally. For me the emotional part of my affair was the strongest thing about it. I walked away from the physical contact without any problem. But I literally craved (like a drug) talking to the OM. It was like my "fix." So when your wife says she doesn't know if she could turn him away, it sounds like she is being honest with herself and you about her feelings.

Even though I know it's not the answer you hoped to hear today, IMO it's a good sign that she is facing how she feels instead of denying it to you and the counselor. A month is a very short amount of time to deal with what happened and put him totally out of her mind. It took me a long time to be able to say with certainty that I'd hang up if the OM contacted me. Or that I'd walk away if I saw him. That didn't mean I wanted to resume the affair, it meant that I had to get the "drug" out of my system by giving myself time to see that I didn't need him.

You wrote>>>Even the counsellor seemed a bit frustrated, she said 'look you need to decide where you are going with this, can you make a commitment to your husband???' she of course said 'yes',but wow what a kick in the teeth!!>>

As hard as this is for you to believe, I think it's possible that your wife can make a committment to you and your marriage, even though she answered that she didn't know if she would turn him away or not. I've said this many times on this forum, but when I ended my affair it took my emotions a long time to catch up with what I knew in my head. I ended the affair and I knew I wouldn't go back to it, but I still had feelings for the OM. I wanted my husband and our marriage, but I still craved the attention the OM gave me. I know it's tough to understand where your wife is coming from. But my bet is that she's struggling to make sense out of this just as you are. She may not want to have any feelings for the OM at this point, but they are still there.

You also wrote>>>My wife has issues from her upbringing that she seriously needs to address, and is trying to....and if I thought she didnt love me I would have walked immediately>>.

I had a lot of issues from my childhood that didn't get addressed until after Dday as well. None of them were justification for having an affair, but getting to the root of who I was and why I was that way really helped me change my behavior and work towards putting my marriage back together. It's a good sign (to me) that your wife is willing to face her affair and face her childhood issues so soon after Dday. It took me years to do that.

A marriage can be put back together after an affair. But it takes a lot of hard work from both spouses. And it takes a WS who is willing to step up to the plate and take responsibilty for what they have done. I think you will be able to see in the coming months if your wife is willing to do that. I believe you will be able to determine whether or not you are wasting your time based on what she is or is not doing. But it will most likely take a long time for you to determine that.

If I can help in any way, please don't hesitate to ask more questions.  

GT

 

 

Thanks GT,Ive been told that you specifically may be able to respond to this question out of experience. Deep down I think I knew what she would say anyway but I guess I didnt want to hear it, what you have said sounds like exactly what she has said so far,the emotional attachment etc.It makes me sound and feel like a cold nerd,but I know I am not.We enjoy(..ed?) our life,its a normal marriage.I may only be guilty of being at work a bit too often,I dont spend the money on wine women and song,it goes into my family and I think that this is why it makes it feel worse for me,its feels harder to undo.Am I making sense,I dont know? But thanks for taking the time to explain some things,I may have to quiz you again,take care all.

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Jon, I read somewhere (can't remember where) that a lot of WS confuse the high of the affair with their feelings for the OP...
They think they are in love with the OP because of the intense high of the affair (someone else wanting them, etc)...It takes time for them to separate these two things...

Also, in my H's case (and others from what I have read) they almost have to hang on to the delusion that they had great feelings for the OP and that the OP was so great...It is too hard for them to accept the damage they have done when they realize that OP and the relationship were really not that great after all...H now admits that he lied to himself about thinking she was someone special because it helped justify what he was doing...

Marie,I think this sums it up really,my wife has said that it did give her a high but she has started to realise that it was all a fantasy and she now sees how much she has risked and hurt everyone(ill decide in time whether I believe her).Im only guilty of being at work a bit too much,there was really nothing else wrong and she admits it,she said if she had never given up work she wouldnt have suffered from depression and opened up a void and of course I should have pushed for help for her,but she insisted she was fine.I guess we shall see.....thanks

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Jon, IMO, in many affairs, the person having the affair confuses "love" for "passion".

Passion is what you feel when you're in the newness of love. That excitement, fluttering heart, can't wait to talk and spend time together, the whole newness of it. Exciting stuff, to be sure.

Love, to me, is what is there AFTER the passion has dwindled down. It's that deep abiding feeling, that feeling of closeness and just knowing your partner.

Unfortunately, many people confuse these two things, and they think that when the passion fades, the love is gone as well. So when that passion flares up with OP, they think they're in love. For example, I'm not one to say "I love you" verbally. I'm more of a "showing love" type of guy. However, my W thought that because I never SAID it, then I must not love her. She missed all the other ways I was non-verbally expressing my love to her. OM, on the other hand, constantly complimented her, told her about the feelings he had for her, etc. Those "feelings" ended up being an excuse to get in her pants. She knows that... now. But that's a different subject.

This is why you'll hear this phrase many times from betraying spouses: "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you."

Replace "in love" with "passion", and you'll see what I mean...

Cory

"Opponents cannot exhaust you." - The Art Of War

Cory,I couldnt have put it any better myself!! I will show her your reply too.I think she She knows it but I need to keep reminding her of how naive she has been and of how she needs to keep me on top of it all too.She had a bad day yesterday,a bit distant and cold.Because of this I lost it a bit last night and tried to put it into words.I told her that its like learning to walk again,without her help Ill fall flat on my face.I told her its up to her,that it will take a superhuman effort for us to get through this,if she cant be bothered then she has to tell me so,shes a bit apologetic this morning but we shall see.....I guess as Im not shouting/swearing/breaking things I just need to keep it fresh in her mind.D-Day + 1 month today.Still soldiering on,thanks.

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Jon wrote:

<< she wouldnt have suffered from depression and opened up a void and of course I should have pushed for help for her,but she insisted she was fine.>>

Depression is a hard thing to deal with...First of all, we do not know how depressed they are if they do not communicate it to us...My H put up a good front...I knew he hated his job, but he hid a lot of his hopelessness for the future of his career...Also even if they get help, sometimes it does not work immediately...My H had gotten help a year before the A, but he did not like the meds and went off them...also he did not do counseling...just psychiatrist and meds....but thought he was getting all the help he needed...After the A he sought counseling as well as psychiatry and that helped a lot more...

All that to say, do not blame yourself for not pushing your spouse to get help...Hindsight is 20/20 right?

As H and I started recovering from the A, I learned for the first time of the strong link between depression and affairs...I had no idea about this though now it makes perfect sense, since the depressed person can use the high of the A to self-medicate...

Thanks Marie,Dont worry she hasnt got a 'get out of jail free' card because of depression,we talked and talked about her giving up work and me taking a better job,and she was totally for it.She definitely doesnt communicate with me and never really has,preferring to bottle things up.
She has had relationship problems all her life,prior to me and is a bit shallow I suppose,she was at a vulnerable stage when this OM started to show his hand and well....Cory pretty much has it down to a T from then on in.Im willing to try to get through this but sometimes I just think she isnt,maybe that is just my own insecurities,we shall see...

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Jon, trust two things only right now.

Trust your "gut feelings", and trust what she DOES (not what she says).

If you have the feeling that "she doesn't want to", then watch what she does very closely.

One of the things that helped me understand myself was learning my "personality type" (according the the Meyers-Briggs scheme). There are many free type-tests available online.

I am a very intense and relatively introverted "thinking" person.

I learned (probably too late to do my marriage any good) that there are some things one cannot think his way through. I literally had to learn to "feel" my way through the demise of my relationship. I did not always trust my feelings, thinking them "irrational". I did not always want to just feel my feelings, either. Some of them were painful.

I finally discovered this: my feelings were right, and my thinking was screwed up. I learned to honor my hurt and anger, and to try and figure out what those feelings were telling me. It's a hard transformation to explain.

If you are a "Star Trek" fan, look at the (I think) third movie with the original cast, "In Search of Spock". A scene takes place on Vulcan with the re-juvenated Spock as the central character, and that scene foreshadows changes in his character through the rest of the series of movies. It's similar to what I am trying to explain.

Chris.

Chris, sorry I didnt realise Ive replied to both your posts on the 'what lyrics' thread,told you Im having a bad day!

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Jon wrote>>>Am I making sense,I dont know?>>

Yes, you are making sense. Many of the things you are saying my husband said as well. Although we had some problems in our marriage he never dreamed I'd have an affair. He blamed himself for a very long time and I let him. If I could only share one thing with the new BS who show up here it would be this.....it was not anything you did or did not do.

If your wife is like I was after Dday, then my guess is she's going through her own private hell right now. It might not look like it on the outside, but I'll bet it does on the inside.

I'm sorry you had to find this site Jon. But I'm glad to see you getting support.

GT

Thanks GT, I simply cant blame myself because I cant find anything really cataclysmic to focus on? And where Im concerned Im fully aware and totally honest about my own faults. There was at no time any real bad blood between us? It was (I dont mean 'was' as in 'it isnt a marriage anymore' just that it is obviously different now) just a normal marriage? Thats what Im having real trouble understanding right now?? Its probably why Im feeling so low.I know she has her issues and is basically a shallow person but can she start to look deeper at things? I dont know.
When I went out to parties etc.with workmates,sometimes it was due to making the effort to stay in touch with old friends,It would sometimes turn into an all-nighter and people would say 'come and stay at mine tonight',I would seriously be thinking about trying my hardest to get home,sometimes spending a lot of money to make sure I did it,simply because I missed my family and wanted to wake up with them. I always felt that these gestures were not really appreciated by my wife,and Im talking pre-A too.
She is in her own private hell,I can tell....but what I cant tell is what feelings it consists of? Is it a hell of 'im so sorry I did this' or a hell of 'I dont know if I love this man?'I told her Im not prepared to stay with someone who isnt going to love me in return, and she still said she wanted to try but its so early...I wish I had a crystal ball!!!


'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

HI Jon,
I just read your last post and you mentioned going out and partying till the wee hours and connecting with friends...Jon if my H did that on an ongoing basis( once a month would be too much) I would be angry and wonder what was going on. If you were meeting friends why wasn't wife included?
Jon I'm not questioning what you did but trying to show you that your wife gave up job to stay home and was left alone because H was out having a beer with friends...

My H (FWS) for all his bad traits when he was in town (not traveling for business) was home with the family and spending time with the children...if he had a business dinner he would be home by 9:30 pm and many times I was included.

My H traveled alot and that is when he was having his ONS's, I will also say the my H is a work-a-colic and there were many nights that he was at his office working, after hours because he could get things done, He would be home with us for dinner and play time then head to office, or work at home...I resented the hours he spent at working, but understood his passion for his job...it was all he talked about, thought about...his job was his drug...addiction...his focus...the family was first but the job was first consideration...

I guess what I am trying to say is understand how your wife was feeling...I can relate to feeling lonely and not having anyone to talk to at night, after having spent the day with young children...then having someone who flatters me makes me feel good....temptation at its best, so give her time to heal and understand what happened.

Jon healing hurts like hell but either way staying in marriage or leaving means having to heal and that takes time...a year or more just until you feel like a whole person again.

pat

I can relate to your wife not appreciating your actions. I didn't fully appreciate a lot of the things my husband did, or the man he was.

I'm glad you don't blame yourself for your wife's affair. And also that you are aware of your faults. I  am always impressed with people who are that way. It took me a long time to admit my faults and not be defensive about every little thing my husband brought up.

I know it's not this way with every story on these boards because some BS who are here never realized their spouse was unhappy. And even if they did they never would have thought them capable of an affair. I also know that some WS re-write marital history to justify their affairs. So what I'm saying here applies to my situation and not necessarily anyone else's. But at some point in our recovery we both had to "own" the things we had done to create an unhealthy marriage. I don't mean that anything my husband did or didn't do justified my affair. But he certainly had contributed to the state of our marriage at the time. And at some point in order to move forward we had to work on those things so our marriage did not go back to the way it was pre-affair. Going through the process of owning  our faults was a huge thing for us to muddle through, and it took years. (I hope I said that right and that no one interpreted it as me saying my husband was to blame for my affair)

It will most likely take a long while to determine what your wife's private hell stems from. My guess is that at this point she doesn't even know herself. A month out from Dday I had no clue where I was half the time. And I mean that literally. It took all I had in me to just to get through a day.

We've said on these forums before that after an affair there are two healings going on. At least there should be. And ideally the WS should be doing whatever they can to help the BS along. But I know that seldom happens right after Dday. It might be a long time before your wife starts to see the damage her affair has caused. For the first several months I was wallering in self pity. I know it must have looked like I was sorry for what I had done, when in fact I was just feeling sorry for myself. And my actions reflected that despite what was coming out of my mouth.

Jon, I believe that over time you will be able to tell by your wife's actions whether or not she is serious about rebuilding your marriage. But it's a slow slow process. 

GT  

 

Somehow when you say it, it sounds pretty good.

Seriously, I think that point of each person taking ownership (and neither one taking nor assigning blame) can ONLY come about when the betrayed partner KNOWS that his/her spouse is sincere in her/his attempts to repair things.

When the assigning of "problems in the marriage" comes before the betrayed partner feels reassured, it is just passing blame to the "victim". But when it comes after, when both parties are able to reaffirm their loving feelings, it's SAFE to take some responsibility for the bad we each brought to the marriage. That's where my marriage failed, IMO. We never got to the point of taking responsibility for the bad we each brought...I simply got blamed for all of it.

That's my take on it anyway.

Chris.

Chris - you said it so well!

That is exactly how I've handled my 'healing' so far. I needed to see, hear and feel his remorse. In the meantime, I needed to understand and accept that this was my reality - my H cheated on me. I was NOT interested in MC because (until recently), there was NO WAY I could start assigning or accepting blame in my marriage.

Now that we are starting to reconcile (and we are both in a healthier frame of mind)...I am open to accepting blame (as well as assigning it - without alot of mud slinging).

Kara

Sorry,Ive been working and have only just got time....
GT I take your point about the time she spent alone,but she really,truly did want to give up work,she hated it. We went through it time and time again and luckily I got my promotion and more money and she was happy with the situation. I know that changed because she wanted to find another part-time job within months.And I helped like mad,I wrote the CVs,and the applications (for all sorts of jobs she fancied,not just those relating to her line of work...), I said I would stop working overtime so she could work on my days off.It would have been silly for me to say 'ok,you work Ill stay home' because Ive been in my job for almost fifteen years and I get paid very well,she couldnt even hope to cover our mortgage with any jobs she was interested in not for years anyway,im not being rude,its just economical sense.
She had interviews,she was offered jobs,she couldnt do the hours because of my twelve hour shifts,so we kept trying and never stopped.She had the temerity to accuse me a few months ago of 'having her where I want her', ie not working,at home,the nerve of it!!! after all I had done and whilst THIS was going on!!
I very rarely go out,but she goes out with her friends probably on a par with me for at least eighteen months now,she even went out two weeks after D-Day,I wasnt stopping her! I went out for the first time last Thursday and came home (it takes one and a half hours to get home!) at 1130pm.
I kept my friends close and dont go out half as much as other friends (also married/co habiting etc.),but now I know why I kept them close,they have been a huge help.
My kids are all polite,well-adjusted,happy,fun-loving,intelligent(just had all their reports),nutters! ie. normal kids,so I know Im doing something right in this day and age,maybe I was working a bit hard - it was six twelve hour days with two off - I could have slowed that but she agreed she wanted the money too!! it was all for us,the house,our family!
No Im not to blame,Ive never done anything to deserve this sort of betrayal and it has affected every aspect of my life,I cant even go to work to get away from it,because its all there as well!!
She has her problems emotionally and always has,she thinks/thought (??) she can do what she wants behind my back and says she found it easy to lie 'because I didnt think as much of you as you did of me',well that makes sense, you see what Im dealing with!!
This is not a rant, honest, I need all the point of views I can get and its helping.I know I need to take a bit of the blame but this isnt how a normal well-adjusted woman should act when she feels a bit fed up!
Anyway we are off to the states tomorrow (Encinitas, CA in case anyone knows it...),doctor says I need it,boss says I need it,friends say I need it so Im doing it....and she is coming too!We shall see how it pans out, thanks for listening,Jon
ps I will try to get on line there....
My story is 'Here goes...' on the discovery forum for anyone that wants to know and aint read it yet xx

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

>>>I need to take a bit of the blame but this isnt how a normal well-adjusted woman should act when she feels a bit fed up!>>>

You hit it on the head with that one comment. If your wife is like I was, she is not a "normal well adjusted woman."  I didn't know what normal and well adjusted looked like, and never had. But I was good at making people think I did. I played the part for many years as someone who had my head screwed on straight. And in some areas I did. But in the relationship with my husband I chose to be selfish and clueless most of the time. 

Unfortunately my husband thought he HAD married someone who was as well adjusted at he was. It was only after my affair that he started to see that he'd married someone with some pretty big issues that had been covered up for a number of years.

The BIG question now is whether or not your wife is capable (and willing) to step up to the plate and work on her issues. Even if there were no past issues (from childhood) then there is still the issue of WHY she had an affair. And it will have to be addressed IMO before either of you can move on with the marriage.

>>this is not a rant>>

Even if it is a rant Jon, that's okay. That's what this board is here for. I used to come post and rant to get things out so I could filter it through everyone here. That put me in a better state of mind to approach my husband with it. These boards have done more for my marriage than any book I've ever read.

Good luck on your trip.

GT

 

>>I know I need to take a bit of the blame<<

I have to be very careful about that sort of thing. It can get out of hand. Figuring out who's responsible for what is a tricky business. I'm sure I don't always take full responsiblity for the things that I am (in fact) responsible for. I'm more sure that, for a long time, I took waaay too much responsibility for my ex's affair and the "problems in our marriage" that "caused" her affair. It helped me to hang on to some of the plain, simple facts. It is a fact that it is almost impossible to force someone into having an affair. They always have other options. Some options are drastic (like divorce). Others are more moderate (like counseling). Our influence over others is limited. Ultimately, each of us makes our own choices (and we define ourselves by them).

Both my ex-wife and I struggled with the question of who was responsible for her affair. I knew that it would be almost impossible to work through the conflicts if I insisted that I played no part in them. It was an short step from there into accepting that I did in fact play a role in her affair. I was also partly responsible for the fact that she continued for years to lie about it - if I had been better, more patient, more forgiving etc. she wouldn't have had the need to lie. The list of things that I was partly or wholly responsible for grew quickly (I don't remember my ex-wife ever objecting).

The problem was that as I took responsibility for things that (in reality) I couldn't control, it made it more difficult to take responsibility for things that I could.

Hope you are having a wonderful trip.

Chris wrote>>>Seriously, I think that point of each person taking ownership (and neither one taking nor assigning blame) can ONLY come about when the betrayed partner KNOWS that his/her spouse is sincere in her/his attempts to repair things>>

I totally agree with your take on this. I acted as most WS do right after Dday. I blamed my affair on what my husband had or had not done in our marriage. And although there were some problems, none justified me turning to someone else. I made myself the victim instead of him, and allowed him to set about trying to determine how to "fix" us while I licked MY wounds and ignored his.

That action on my part right after Dday (one of many) bit me in the butt years later when I finally did want to step up to the plate and take responsibility. I'd let my husband lie on the floor bleeding inside for years and suddenly I was ready to say....I've now decided that it was MY fault that I had an affair. You can imagine his reaction and how "safe" he felt with me at that point.

Owning who did what was a necessary step for us in order to move on. But it took years for us to get there, and for my husband to feel safe going there with me.

My comments to Jon on this came more out of admiration for him being able to own any faults he has because I've never been able to do that. Any time my faults were pointed out to me I threw them back at my husband and said....oh yeah...well if you didn't do this, I wouldn't have this fault. At some point I actually believed that to be the warped truth. That my faults were the result of what someone else was or wasn't doing, not mine to own. 

Just to be clear, I was not suggesting that Jon needed to step up and go through the process of owning his faults in the marriage at this point. The affair IMO needs to be addressed before the relationship issues. And the WS needs to step up and recognize who the real victim is here. 

But as you stated Chris, sometimes the relationship never makes it to the point of owning who did what relationship wise.

GT

 

Since Jon's on vacation, I can hijack his thread.

GT wrote >>Any time my faults were pointed out to me I threw them back at my husband and said....oh yeah...well if you didn't do this, I wouldn't have this fault. At some point I actually believed that to be the warped truth. That my faults were the result of what someone else was or wasn't doing, not mine to own.<<

Boy does this sound familiar.

I owe GT a great deal in my own recovery. As much as anyone, GT has helped me (with posts like this over the years) to see where things went wrong in my house and the parts I owned...as well as the parts I didn't own.

Chris.

Hijack away! GT has summed it up and Im not taking any offence ;-)This was NOT my fault and Im not taking the blame,I can own up to my faults but as she now says they were hardly instrumental to her actions,she just used them to justify what she did because she was being simple-minded.My wife is starting to see she was very stupid and there was no real justification for what she did,and she did initially,like GT says,blame ME for what SHE had done,this has now stopped because I wouldnt let it be!
We have had a great week far away from life and she says she feels like she did when we first met.No,Im not just accepting that as gospel, as I reminded her,real life is waiting for us back on the other side of the Atlantic and she needs to be able to cope with that. We purposefully went to a quiet area so that we could sit down and talk and to my surprise she did, and a lot came out,Im glad I decided to ask her now and didnt go alone.Because of what Ive found out and insisted upon in the last two months Im worried about what Moe is saying though,he seems to be so hurt he is leaving himself wide open for a replay! thanks all,Jon

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Glad you're having a good time and got some talk time in too. It sounds to me like your wife is where I'd like my H to be, but he isn't and don't think he ever will be.
Anyway, how much longer have you got on that side of the pond?
I think most of us here are worried about Mac/Moe. Not talking about you behind your back, Mac (hey! that rhymes) but I feel like you're all to happy to take blame and do all the hard work, and it feels like little is coming from her corner. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it feels. I really don't want you ending up like me, so, please, take the advice from all your 'friends' here.
Jon, stay away as long as you can!! All we've got here is 'Royal' weddings and elections, certainly better to be away right now!!!
xxxx

Alas Sandy,I am back, bit jetlagged since Friday hence the delay,back at work tomorrow ;-( We are going on our real holiday (kids,in laws and all) next month,this was booked last year and I was worried that it couldnt work,at least this week has shown that it can.
Im still not sure that my wife is being totally honest,with me or herself? She could be telling the whole truth and my current state (quite rightly a self-preservation system) is preventing me from just accepting it,it may just be that simple,but she knows that we are hanging by a thread right now and despite the fact its getting a bit thicker any more weight on it and it will just snap!
Im enjoying getting up to speed though,thanks all for remembering me,was unable to get online there as it was just a very simple,comfortable seaside motel,thanks Jon

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Well, all I can say is that it all sounds pretty good. I mean, have you got stuff going on in your head like I do where things don't add up, inconsistencies, and contradictions?
For example, I will ask my H why he said that sex with her was the best he'd ever had, and sometimes he'll say 'at the time I thought it was' and another day he'll completely deny ever having said it at all.
So, I'd say, if you haven't got these little 'buts' going round in your head, you're doing ok.
Glad you're back - unfortunate for you!! Where's the big holiday? We're going to the Algarve in June...
xxx

Big holiday being the word! We are off to Singapore and Bali on May 25th,I still cant believe she let me book it in September knowing what she was doing at the time?? How effing reckless was that? Oh I have the 'buts' but I really dont care at the moment,I feel Im coming around a bit and feeling stronger.I can think straight again,but just now,looking through my photos for the photo thread I just looked at the ones from last years holiday (when it had all just started) and I get a bit angry,then I looked at the ones since,family dos,foreign trips and just family in general and I feel like shouting at her (10ft away) 'when I think about it you dont look f*****g unhappy you know on any of these' but I have to put those feelings away.
I think I will want to know things - and she will have to answer questions - in the future, but those are for another day when/if things are on an even plane,in a galaxy far far away! See I even find a glimmer of a sense of humour every now and then!
She is trying and Ill give her that,I just dont want to give her too much because sometimes I think she just forgets what she has done!! making sense?? Jon

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Yes, I think you make perfect sense. My H is all too fond of saying 'can't you just MOVE ON and forget it' He's been saying that since day one. It drives me nuts. I want to scream at the top of my voice 'of course I can't bloody well forget it and MOVE ON, you moron - look what you did to me'. But all that has no effect on him. I hope your odd reminder has an effect.
xxx

Oh she knows better than to say that to me Sandy,Ive always been the strong one in this relationship and I never always wanted to be.There were times when I wanted the back seat,for her to organise something, a holiday,a get together anything....She knows she is quite weak and a bit shallow,she knows now she either grows up and owns up or gets out! You should adopt the same policy,its a huge world out there and I know Im not over the hill.
Flipside though,if I do leave her she will crumble and therefore my kids will suffer greatly and I cant let that happen,bugger my pride,they matter to me more than anything.

'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'

Isn't it weird? I've always been the one that does everything, like organising holidays, doing ALL the DIY around the house (not very well, but better than he could do) and he was the one that was saying (at the time of the affair that I wasn't strong enough). Today, I've had the drill out to put up a new curtain rail, I've put the rubbish out, mowed the lawn (again) and dug garden ready for planting. Oh and installed a new BBQ - which he wouldn't have even known how to get the box open for!! I check the oil, water and tyres on both cars - cos I get fed up of him asking which is the oil thing.... BUT, I have to admit, he's very good at playing golf and watching TV!!! In fairness, he was at work today, but he would only have done the rubbish and the mowing, he wouldn't touch the drill or the BBQ (by the way, I also built the BBQ, as in, laid the bricks, mixed the mortar etc, but my Dad was a bricklayer, so I've watched a lot of bricklaying in my time. We moved into this house in 1997 and I've done all the decorating, except he did paint one ceiling for me because I was knackered. He is trying a bit harder now, and has had a go at painting the outside of the house, but I got so fed up with seeing a half painted wall, after about 6 weeks, I finished it off. So, why did I want him? Because I was in love and thought I could handle all that stuff AS LONG AS HE STAYED FAITHFUL. Well, you know the rest....