This is open, so is it ok to talk about sex, or in my case, lack of it?
I was reading what Chris said about the need for sex from a man's point of view, and it got me thinking.
I have point blank stopped having sex with my husband. We've been 'back together' 3 years, after his year of rubbish. As some of you will know, for the last part of that year, I went to Australia to make a new life for myself, then he asked me to come home to 'try again'. I lost lots of weight, bought sexy underwear, and tried really hard to be passionate and sexy etc. and it just didn't do a thing for him. In fact one time he told me to stop pestering him for sex. Now, my theory on this is that he was still in love with HER back then, though he denies this, but anyway, I kept trying, but in the following 2 years, he just showed no real interest. Then my mind started its little tricks, and with his refusal to answer my questions, lying to counsellor, lying to me (which I only found out a lot later) I started thinking that when he was having sex with me, he was closing his eyes and trying to pretend he was with her. Once or twice he did things that he had NEVER done with me - like, he put me into this really strange and uncomfortable position (and afterwards said that she liked it so he thought I might) and also once he shouted out 'f***' when he had his orgasm. He never ever did that before, our lovemaking always used to be, well, loving, not, well, I can't explain it, but him shouting that out made me feel dirty. Then there was the time I've mentioned about recently where he told me that the sex we'd just had wasn't even worthy of being called a f***, ie. it was so bad. So I have kind of retreated into a little shell now, and its nearly a year since we've had sex. I've told him why, said its because nearly every time we did, he made me feel degraded. Even when the sex wasn't so bad, next day he'd say I didn't 'do much' like I didn't touch him enough. Add this to the fact that he's told me (proudly) about how she used to touch him all the time and paid him compliments and all that, I don't think its surprising that I've withdrawn. Now, he doesn't even realise its been a year (on 21st April it'll have been a year, us women remember these things!!) which gets my little brain going again. He must be having such good sessions of masturbating and thinking of her, he doesn't miss it with me. He said the other day 'we haven't had sex for a few weeks' and when I said it's been nearly a year, he looked shocked. We're never gonna make it are we? I mean, he's told her that sex with her was the best he's ever had and then told me that what he meant by that was that she was good 'technically' (perhaps she had a night job?? are you allowed to say prostitute?) Anyway, I'm rambling, but if anyone wants to advise, please feel free. Main question is, sex makes me feel degraded, I think he's thinking of her, he doesn't seem bothered either way whether we do it or not, so I think he's happier doing it for himself with his own private thoughts and memories. So what hope is there?
This message has been edited by sandy6957 on Mar 30, 2005 8:23 AM
The OW or OM stepped into the mix out of the shadows with no built-up resentments, anger, frustrations, etc and launched into all that good stuff --attention, touching, 'love', and great sex.
Then generally after resentfully getting busted, the spouse comes back into the marriage, maybe all full of him/herself (inspite of some degree of remorse) and there you are mortified.
Your spouse might be pining for the OP. You might be thinking of 'them' together, and there the two of you are trying to make a connection.
bleeeech.
Here's a toast to all those who manage to overcome.
Very clever with the toast. If you can get a picture of toast on here and I've only just mastered , then you must be real clever!!!
You got my feelings into words pretty much exactly right, in fact, not even pretty much, just totally spot on.
Now all I need is some even cleverer (I know, there's no such word, but I like making em up) to give me the answers!!!
Help yourselves, folks - you have oodles of space so get going....
Do I assume,then, that you think my H was wrong for saying that? The bit about 'she liked it so thought you might'? Cos this is the crux of the problem - or one of them. Because he only said that after I asked him about it. It had been troubling me for a few days, and then I had to ask 'why did you get me into that strange position'? Only then did he answer my question, which is why I'm so troubled about what he really thinks and feels and why he really is back here with me.
D'you know what, I love these boards, because I thought it was me, that I was 'silly' for being troubled by that, or feeling degraded, and Quinn's two words have made me feel better about myself : 'small wonder' - those words mean so much to me.
Thank you Quinn xxxxx
Nearly forgot
This message has been edited by sandy6957 on Mar 30, 2005 12:11 PM
Sandy, sorry that you are going through this. I've read some of your other posts and it seems like your are in a really bad situation. I wish you the best of luck. I wish I had some advice to give you but am trying to figure out similar things in my relationship with my wife.
It's to the point with us that we are intimate 2 or 3 times a month and that's about it. When we are I'm so concerned about making it as pleasurable for her as possible that I end up not really enjoying it. I just my thinking is that if I can make her happy enough this won't happen again. I know that's stupid but it's hard to not feel like that.
I heard something that really seemed to apply to our marriage and thought I'd share it:
Scientists have recently found a food that drastically diminishes a woman's sex drive.....wedding cake.
Thanks, and sorry you're going through similar stuff. I hate wedding cake!!! That toast up there looks far more appetising.
If you're at least having sex 2 or 3 times a month, you're doing better than me. But I so sympathise with the thoughts you're having. That's really why I just stopped doing it, I thought I'd rather have none that have it with all the crappy thoughts that come with it, so to speak.
Now, don't take my advice, cos it's probably rubbish, seeing as I can't even sort my own mess out, but, what about you just getting selfish? Do it - enjoy it (for your own ends) - and forget it? I dunno, is it different for men? Could a man feel degraded? I'm thinking of the physical act, where, in reality, its the man who enters the woman (hope I don't get moderated here), so the woman is 'taking it' rather than giving it. Does this make any sense? I can understand the feelings part, that you're so worried about making her enjoy it, but I'm wondering if you could switch that bit off and get selfish, would it still feel bad?
I think I'm probably not making any sense here, so I'll, once again, shut up!!
xxxxx
oh yeah, and
Sandy, I think that's what I'm going to start doing. Heck the way I see it, if we're only gonna have sex a few times a month, I better at least enjoy them.
I really need to start thinking about my own happiness in more areas than just the bedroom.
Well, good luck with it!! Me? I've started Spanish lessons!! Not much of a replacement but it begins with S and it makes me feel a bit better about myself!!
And another piece of advice from someone who knows nothing... don't ask her if she enjoyed it when you've done! I think that WOULD be degrading. But don't listen to me, see what the others think!!
Be true to yourself - and sod everyone else
I'm not sure you'll want my take on your husband's actions since I am the former betrayer. And I recognize that some BS (and rightly so) want nothing to do with a WS on forums like this. If that's the case then just ignore my post. As Cory mentioned on another thread, it takes a lot to offend me.
What I see in your husband's actions and words is much the same thought process I had during my affair and after Dday. For me it all boiled down to control. In my mind I had it, and I had to keep it. If I let myself look into what my husband was going through then I also had to face the fact that I had caused it. The hurt he was experiencing was all over his face and in his words. But as long as I could throw what he was doing back at him then I didn't have to take responsibility for it.
Your husband saying those things to you (IMO) somehow makes him feel that he is one up on you. And in his mind he has to stay one up on you to make himself feel better. What I found was that deep down it didn't really make me feel better when I did and said things that were hurtful. In fact it made me feel worse and hate myself more. But I wasn't going to admit that to him or to myself. I got into a vicious cycle of taking MY misery out on him. Somehow I was going to make someone pay, and I was so self absorbed that it wasn't going to be me. So I lashed out at him in ways that I thought would make me feel better about myself.
I'm not sure if this makes sense to someone who is not this way. But it's much like the bully at school. I was miserable because I truly hated the person I was, but I couldn't see that I was to blame for it.
Your husband saying those things to you about the OW is just downright mean and cruel. It's no wonder you have trouble moving on Sandy. He's making you second guess yourself all over the place. I've been there, done that. I kept my husband stuck with his healing in our relationship because I wouldn't/couldn't move on myself.
Ya know the tragic thing is, I now see that I didn't want my husband to move on after Dday. In fact I got really pissed at him the first time he did reach out to someone for help. I was scared that if he truly healed he would see that he didn't need or want me anymore. I was also scared of what they would tell him. I knew I was in the wrong and that his feelings were valid, but as long as I could keep him blinded I had control of where things were going. I wanted him to follow my plan of healing. Even though I didn't offer him any of the tools HE needed.
For me it was always about the control. I didn't tell the truth after Dday because I felt I didn't have to. He couldn't make me. And I took advantage of his good nature (on purpose) to crap all over him. There was a certain amount of not wanting to hurt him any further with the details. And a certain amount of shame for what I'd done. But mainly I wanted to keep things under my control because that's where I felt safest. Venturing into helping him heal scared the hell out of me. I kept all of the details of my affair bottled up becaue I felt that's where I controlled the situation.
I kept him in limbo for years. And the damage I did to our marriage because of that is something we were almost not able to turn around. Giving up the control (for me) was the scariest thing I've ever done. It's only been in the past 2 years that I've been able to admit any of that to myself.
I don't know if this helps Sandy. But I read your posts and can relate to some of what your husband is doing and saying. He sounds like a tortured man, just as I was. And it sounds like he's trying to make you think it's you, when it really isn't.
I'm glad you found the forum. And I'm glad the other BS have helped you. Being on an affair forum is something no one ever imagined would happen to them. Even me. But I'm glad there is help out there.
I have walked in your shoes and boy, do they pinch. For a year of supposed reconciliation, the OW was figuratively in bed with us. And ex was jerking off (wanking in your vernacular) in bathroom. He often turned me toward the wall so he was "doing it" to my back I believe for the same reasons that you do - he wanted to pretend he was with someone, ANYONE, besides me. I was often physically ill after sex. My skin crawled and I HAD to shower. We never go far enough in counseling to address this, so it is still baggage I carry.
You have never mentioned counseling in any of your posts - could you and WS try to work some of this stuff out with a counselor? Just based on the differences in perception about sexual frequency, I'd guess that communication between you is non-existent. Sex is sometimes a form of communication - a communication of deep, caring feelings. Maybe if you worked on the communication verbally, the communication in other, more intimate ways, would revive as well. Just my 2 pence.
THANK YOU I did not stop reading, I am so glad that you are here. Your words are helpful. I am grateful to you. Now the questions!!
How did you turn it around? Is there anything I can do to help make my husband think like you do? What prompted the change? You said it was scary, but how did you do it?
I went to chat, but obviously you were busy typing away that long reply, just to try and help me.
I really do thank you so much for that.
xxxxx
You get two cos I'm so grateful xx
Yes, we did the counselling thing, about 6 times during the first year we got back together. But he was still lying then, so it was pointless. The poor counsellor has had her own stuff to deal with and has now retired (her husband had a heart attack while they were on holiday, poor folks) so, we have not been back, one, because its so expensive and two, because, like GT was saying, I don't think he's at the stage to come up with the full story so we'd be wasting our money.
It's kinda nice (in a desperately sad way) to know that someone knows how it feels to be in my shoes, so I've decided I aint gonna wear shoes anymore. That'll save money too, my own skin is cheaper than leather, or even plastic. I'm a bare foot person now.
xxxx
Can I change him, or will his change only come through his own work, feelings, thoughts?
I can't stay here right now because, as some of you know, he doesn't know I visit 'the nutters page' and he's on his way home!!!!!
But please, GT and everyone, type away, because I need this from whichever 'side of the fence' it comes from.
Love you all, gotta go (I AM being controlled, aren't I?)
First off, communication. You're pissed, and rightly so, for the affair and it's aftermath. A big part of it is the lying and deception.
IF you are going to learn to communicate with each other, the first thing you BOTH must do is embrace openness and honesty. Hiding the fact that you even come here is NOT open or honest.
I'd tell him that you're hanging out with us nutters because, unlike him, we're actually trying to HELP you.
Controlling: I learned a long time ago that you cannot control ANYTHING that happens around you. The only thing you DO have control over is how you react to the different things that happen.
So ask yourself this question: You KNOW you're reacting in ways that are detrimental to your healing, so WHY do you continue to do it?
One of my daughters once said when she was 15 that she was going to find a guy to take care of her forever. Like you, she didn't like to make decisions. Me being the tactful parent that I am, I told her she was a fool.
Lastly, sex. Like I've told the Kid many times, if worse comes to worse, there's always BOB.
>>Do I assume,then, that you think my H was wrong for saying that?<<
Yes. I'm guessing that GT is right. None of us can't be positive, of course, but those are the kinds of things that I would say to a woman if I wanted to hurt her. I wouldn't like it if my wife said to me "I thought you would like that because that's the way I used to do it with the OM and he liked it that way". In fact, she did say things like that. At the time, I was so bumfuzzled that I couldn't bring myself to believe that she could be so deliberately cruel. It wasn't until years later that I was apalled by the way that I had allowed myself to be treated.
Some psychologists consider describing details of sexual encounters with the other person when you have been unfaithful as an indicator of emotionally abusive relationship.
"I would never deliberately hurt you ... Oh look! How'd that spear get into your head?" when it happens once can be a mistake. But if you say "hey don't do that, it hurts" and more spears continue to show up in your head and each time the perpetrator claims he can't see any spears? Whatch out.
>>I thought it was me, that I was 'silly' for being troubled by that, or feeling degraded<<
Trust yourself (easier said than done). I still do something similar (although I'm working at it) - when I get upset. Instead of wondering what might be with the situation, I wonder if there is something wrong with me.
How did I turn it around? I wish I could say there was a magical day of awakening where I finally "got it." I guess technically there was a day where I started waking up, but I didn't know it at the time or really what caused it to be that day.
What prompted me seeking help was being sick of living the way I was living. I could no longer look at myself in the mirror. I had more days where I just wanted to lay down and die than where I wanted to live. A lot of it was my children. I saw that I was messing up a lot of lives along with my own. I was not functioning very good as a mother or a wife at the time. And deep down I knew my children and my husband deserved better.
It scared me to think about the changes I would have to go through so I ignored what was happening to me emotionally for a very long time. But at some point it scared me more to stay where I was than it did to try and change. I'd never been that emotionally low in my life. I'd always been able to bury it and keep going. But it reached a point that I could no longer bury it and function through a whole day without hiding somewhere to fall apart.
I don't know what got me off the bathroom floor that particular day to call the counselor. I believe I wanted someone to give me hope. For some reason on that day it was like I was finally able to look outside myself and see for the first time what I had become, and what I saw really frightened me. Fortunately the counselor did say a few things that day that gave me hope. So I kept going back.
>>>Is there anything I can do to help make my husband think like you do?>>
Sadly, I don't think there is anything my husband could have done to make me want to get help. There were some things he said, one of which was he didn't see us making it til death do us part, but when it came down to it, I had to make the decision to call the counselor and get help.
>>>Can I change him, or will his change only come through his own work, feelings, thoughts>>
I can only tell you (again) that in our situation, nothing my husband was doing at the time made me want to change. I knew he loved me, and that I loved him. And he really went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to hanging in there with me. But I had to want to change myself for it to happen. At first I didn't "want" it so much as I was just reaching out in desperation to get myself up off that floor. As time went on and I continued to see my counselor I started wanting to change my behavior. But it took me years to get to that point.
I never compared my husband to the OM sexually. The OM was horrible in bed, he truly was. (And I know that opens up questions as to why I had sex with him, but that's a whole nother thread) So to compare my husband to him in that way would have meant I had to make up "good things to say about the OM" just to zing my husband worse than I already had. Not that I deserve any points for not having done that, but I never did.
I did compare him in other ways though. And I have to tell you that each time I did, it was always used as a means to shut my husband up. When I wanted to stop the conversation I knew exactly where to hit. When I wanted to stop the talk about the affair I brought up something that I knew would make him mad or upset him.
Cory wrote that communication is important. I agree with that, but both people have to want it for it to happen. I shut down the communication because it was my way of controlling what went on.
My husband would tell you that he allowed me to control things way too much. He feared that I would leave him if he made me mad. By the time I finally got around to getting help he was having days where he wished I'd just get mad and leave, especially since it seemed that I wasn't going to change.
I still have to fight the urge to control our relationship and control him. I most likely always will battle with that. Most of our arguements these days are over me doing that very thing.The difference now though is that my husband recognizes when I'm doing it and says....that doesn't work in this house anymore.
Quinn>>>None of us can't be positive, of course>>>
Sandy, none of us knows what's going on in someone else's home. All we can do is share our stories and hope that someone can take something from it that will help. I don't know that your husband is like me. But I do recognize some of his behavior patterns as being like mine.
If the OW/OM is still in the betrayers head, bed, or life in any way, it is almost impossible to heal.
After D-day my H was my dream husband. He did everything right EXCEPT he and the OW kept in occasional contact via e-mail. There was NEVER anything romantic or loving that went on before, during or after the affair, but ANY communication drove me over the edge. I was filled with such hatred for "her" that it consumed my every waking thought. I woke up every morning for several months and the first word out of my mouth BEFORE I got out of bed were, "f'n w--re." The A already cause enough heart damage, but rage can compound it. No one is worth losing your mind,or health over.
I don't know if the OW in your case is out of your H's mind. Until you know that for sure, it will be tough to get her out of your mind and share openly, honestly and lovingly with your H.
The whole thing can be maddening. Now where's my mad-hatter hat.
Like Cory said, we do have control over how we react, and that control can be influenced by our thoughts. I try not to give what little functioning brain space I have to "her". Lucky for her.
>>I dunno, is it different for men? Could a man feel degraded?<<
Yes. Absolutely. For example, if a man is told "no" so often that he just stops trying (to avoid constant rejection)...but once in a while he is "ordered" to perform when SHE feels like it, it is VERY degrading.
A man in that situation feels desperate longing, yet no real respect, love, or deep connection...and so he gets around to feeling self-loathing at being used. Yep, that's degrading, among other things.
Chris.
edited to add:
And yet, it feels too close to the "all men want one thing" generalization to get divorced over a bad sex life. I mean, how does one explain that? "I'm getting divorced because my wife won't have sex with me as often as I think we should". Sounds so shallow even though it really is very deep. So men like me hang in there when we probably shouldn't. And Sandy, I can tell you the exact date I last got ordered to perform...and I refused because I was pissed off at her and didn't feel like it. Some men remember such things, too.
This message has been edited by chris924 on Mar 30, 2005 9:05 PM
I don't know what to think now! Chris - I don't say 'no' EVER - he never asks!! He doesn't even try and make a move, probably because he knows I'll say no, but he doesn't anyway, and that makes me feel like he's not interested. It really is a cycle. Misha - yep, communication is non existent alright. We went to see Riverdance the other night, which I've seen before and I just love. He'd never seen it. Well, it didn't do anything for him, and I felt so depressed!! I told him that I'd hoped that he'd feel the same 'elation' (for want of a better word) that I did after seeing it, and that we'd be all close and chatty and friendly, so that when we got into bed that night, we'd feel SO close, so in tune, so that we liked each other, that it might have ended up in us, maybe, having sex. He says 'What, because of watching Riverdance - how would that make us close?' It's like we're on a different wave length here. And I feel so bitter still. I mean, he says he had the one night stand after they'd had an enjoyable night together, drinking, playing pool. Isn't that what I meant, only even closer? But he just doesn't get it. I tell you, I'm so glad, that my emotion after seeing Riverdance didn't make me do anything so studid as approach him for sex!! And that has happened loads of times over the last year-cum-April-21st. I've maybe arranged a 'nice' weekend together away somewhere and thought to myself 'maybe, just maybe, I'll make a move' and then I haven't for one reason or another and then the next day, something has happened and I've thought 'thank God I didn't'.
As for BOB - don't need no BOB, I can cope perfectly well on my own! And, just about sex in general, its messy. When you get down to the brass tacks, it is though, isn't it? Stop reading now if you're not into down to earth talk. But my point is, well, afterwards (if my memory serves me correctly) I have to go and clean up - that's me being polite. I can't just lie there for the rest of the night in his arms, I have to get up and clear it all out. Which reminds me of another of his charming comments, once, back in history. 'You just can't wait to get it out of you, can you'? I asked what did SHE do - he (naturally) couldn't remember, but he was certain she didn't have to get out of bed to clean up........
Love to all, from, heading for divorce Sandy xxxx
Well, OW may have been somewhere that she didn't have to change the sheets either! Just because a woman wants to go to the bathroom for whatever reason after sex does NOT mean she didn't want to be with her partner or didn't love her partner.
I've got a collection of iron skillets (I'm from the south) if you want to borrow one . . .
Don't get it. Probably cos I'm a pom. Whats an iron skillet? Is it one of those things you cook pancakes on and if so, how do they help 'catch the cacky stuff'. I know that was crude, sorry, but can't explain it any other way
xxxx
An iron skillet is an iron frying pan used to cook eggs, pancakes and the like. We southern women, at least this one, know iron skillets are also appropriate to use to whoop errant husbands upside the head one if they need us to get their attention! So if you need to borrow one to whoop your H upside the head to get his attention, you just let me know, OK? LOL
Oh I get it now! It's ok, I have a sledge hammer and an electric drill. And a car. One of those should get through his thick skull.......
This was a joke, don't panic anti violence people.
I only do violence on myself, and I'm crap at that too.
xxxxxx
We (many of us here) have had the "I hate it when my spouse jumps out of bed like it's on fire after sex" discussion before.
My first significant other and I would curl up in each others' arms and drift off to sleep, spooning, with full-body contact. I never felt so loved, or in love, as then in the afterglow.
My exwife almost always jumped up out of bed and headed for the bathroom IMMEDIATELY. By the time she came back, I'd be asleep. It felt to me as if sex with me was something "dirty", and so she had to go clean up afterward. When she came back she'd never want to touch.
Now I need to go get my own iron skillet (though I usually prefer a 2x4 because it's easier to one-hand). Ain't just husbands who don't get it, and ain't just wives who cook with iron skillets.
Chris
"My first significant other and I would curl up in each others' arms and drift off to sleep, spooning, with full-body contact. I never felt so loved, or in love, as then in the afterglow."
I agree there is nothing better than that, but there are times when you are in more of a hurry and a woman can't just throw her clothes on like a man can :>) Ya know?
Chris, you are absolutely right! I wasn't trying to be sexist (even if I did succeed!), but it sounds like Sandy's H could use a skillet or two upside the head!
I admit I often jump up after H and I have finished, but only because we spend soooooooo much time doing it, that I really, REALLY need to use the bathroom afterwards. I hurry, so I can get back to cuddling and snuggling with him and then fall asleep. I just don't think I can win against a full bladder!
I'm on the defensive now, I know. But, lets face reality, by morning, it stinks! It does! And every time you roll over (if you haven't cleaned up) a bit dribbles out. I know this is a disgusting conversation, but, well, is it just me, then?
"I admit I often jump up after H and I have finished, but only because we spend soooooooo much time doing it..."
Sure. Rub it in...
My buddy and his wife have a cute way of negotiating. When he wants her to do something, she'll respond with a number, say for example, "20". He'll respond, "10", then they go back and forth to settle on a number. And the reverse is true as well.
The number itself denotes how many minutes of foreplay he must give her, or she him...
Hmmm. My H and I don't spend any time talking about how many minutes to spend in foreplay. We just start the good stuff--touching, kissing, hugging, etc., etc. Purrr!
Sandy wrote>>>I know this is a disgusting conversation, but, well, is it just me, then?>>
I don't think this is a disgusting conversation. Although I have to admit, it's always been difficult for me to share our sexual habits on this forum. For me the jumping up to clean up afterwards seems to have something to do with age. When we were first married I don't think I even thought about such things. Young and with a "not caring" attitude I would sometimes just lie there and bask in the afterglow and fall asleep cuddling, without getting up at all. Of course that was also back in the days where we didn't have to worry about kiddos knocking on the door or crawling into bed with us.
Now I think that not getting up to "clean up" would bug me. Not because I think it's dirty and I want to get away from my husband. But because I give it much more thought than I used to. My husband has expressed the same thing your husband and Chris mentioned. That he felt I couldn't wait to get out of the bed. So, our solution has been to clean up together. That way no one feels the other person is trying to get away from them. If time allows, a nice warm bath afterwards is nice. And then back to bed to cuddle and sleep. Of course by this time I'm always wide awake and ready to talk and husband is ready to sleep. LOL
To answer your question Sandy, I don't think it's just you. If you want to get up and clean up then I think you shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. I'd say that most women are that way. But I do think this is one of those areas where communication (from both parties) is important. I never knew my husband viewed it that way until he told me one night. Once I knew it though, then it was up to me to adjust my actions.
Fairy wrote>>I admit I often jump up after H and I have finished, but only because we spend soooooooo much time doing it<<
Yeah Cory, she's just gone to bragging now.
GT
edited because I used too many words in one sentence. And edited the second time because I spelled a word wrong in my first edit. Is anyone else besides me nosey enough to wonder why folks edit their posts? LOL
This message has been edited by gettingthere on Apr 1, 2005 9:30 AM This message has been edited by gettingthere on Apr 1, 2005 9:28 AM
First, yeah I'm nosey about why people edit, so I've started saying what I edited, which is usually a spelling mistake, or something I forgot I wanted to say.
Secondly, I wonder if (getting back to the nitty gritty) its because since I had my baby, I'm kind of bigger, you know, not so tight, so it leaks out?
Sorry again for the disgustingness xxxx
You do realise what you just said, don't you? We're talking about cleaning up the mess (please dont moderate this!!! - spunk) and you say you're husband looks like the cat that got the cream?
Geez, and I thought I went to close to the mark....
, then you must be real clever!!!
