For some reason, this thought crossed my mind the other morning.
How would you describe the differences and similarities between and among
-hope for better (life, relationship, etc.),
-denial of reality
-outright stupidity.
I'm not sure what the question is but here are my thoughts on that interplay.
I can look back on hope, denial of reality, and stupidity and see how they all interplayed through the process of recovery.
When my husband had an affair, our marriage died. It was a sicker marriage than I thought, medicated with alcohol.
I hoped to save the marriage, family, finances, and destroy his affair. There were doomed aspects to this that took time to see. Death generally causes grief after denial and shock.
The grief was long and hard, but laced with denial. I was desperate to salvage the situation, and many actions were driven by fear.
Stupidity? Oh yes. I went beyond denial into the land of Virtual Stupidity. Understanding some of the things I did doesn't really help.
I eventually had all that denial shoved up my nose. I live with my own stupidity. He's with his pot head affair partner. I'm finished with both of them, at least as much as possible due our son.
Now I hope for a better relationship--future. I do not feel anywhere near as vulnerable to denial and stupidity as I did, but we'll see.
This message has been edited by Red--Wolf on May 9, 2005 6:23 AM
I'm going to approach this from the blindie angle...
Years ago, I was trying to deny the fact that my sight wasn't what it should be while remaining hopeful that some miracle would take place that would restore my sight.
Then reality hit, HARD. I was declared legally blind. I lost my self esteem, my career and I thought at the time, my life.
Now, I no longer deny what is going on with my (lack of) sight. I STILL remain hopeful, but that hope is tempered with the reality of my situation.
How did this change occur? For one, I gained as much knowledge of my situation and how this disorder is affecting me as I could. I reached out to others in my situation who helped me to understand what was going on, and who have inspired me with the way they live their lives while incorporating their blindness into it.
Was I stupid in my old thinking? I don't think so. Instead, I tend to think of it as a deep rooted fear, brought on by a combination of lack of knowledge and a childish mindset of wanting someone to make it better.
I STILL have that fear, but again, it's tempered by knowledge of the reality of the situation. What this allows me to do is to take positive steps in dealing with it.
Cory's response made alot of sense to me. Stupidity is hope for the future that isn't tempered by reality. RW said something similar.
To me, love is the problem. Love makes me very stupid. I don't see things clearly and I don't think clearly. I hope when I shouldn't. I overlook mountains of evidence that trust is stupid. Some people say that it's stupid to let love make you stupid. I tend to agree, sometimes. Some days, my stupidity embarasses me. Other days, it doesn't seem so bad.
>>Stupidity is hope for the future that isn't tempered by reality....To me, love is the problem. Love makes me very stupid.<<
So it's not just me, then. Good. The three ARE connected, or they were.
I was having one of those "zoom out" moments the other day, looking down on my life as if I were a giant with a microscope (if that makes sense). Those three things seemed to make a "negative cycle" in my life that has repeated a time or two.
You know, I was thinking about something this morning, that's kind of along the lines of this thread.
As you know, I've been on boards like these for quite a few years now. I think the only person that posts here that's been around longer is Kat, and only by a few months.
During this time, I've literally "met" hundreds of people in affair recovery. Maybe it's me, but I can't think of a single BS who I would consider "dumb", judging by what they write and their style of writing. Matter of fact, if you judge it be the careers that these people have, a vast majority are people HAVE to be smart to be doing what they're doing.
Most of us, even before the affairs, seem to be the type of person that does a lot of introspection. On the flip side, it seems like most WS's DON'T do this. To me, that's one the things that comes as a big shock when the affair is discovered: That our partners do not necessarily "think" like we do. And to me, the WS's who do eventually "get it" (like our beloved GT and my W), are those that learn that type of introspection, to take those necessary steps of self-examination to discover what happened, why it happened, and making positive moves forward to ensure it doesn't happen again. So it's not a matter of them being "dumb" either. Rather, it's something that they needed to learn, and I commend those WS's who have done this. Some people naturally have that "gift" of introspection and self awareness. Others learn it. My W was in the latter category.
Bottom line: I'm thinking that none of us are/were stupid. Naive, maybe. And being in love maybe blinded us to the reality that was right in front of us. And considering that love was something we never thought to analyze until AFTER our D-Days, we're left with the shock factor.
Maybe, just maybe, we were a little TOO smart for our own good? And because we WERE "fooled", part of what we are dealing with/dealt with is a blow to our own "intelligence ego"?
I do think I've felt naive a bit but never dumb. I think he (ex) was the dumb one for thinking he could continue to lie and cheat and I would still be with him putting up with it. He was the dumb one for losing his family over alcohol, TV/computer, porn, and affairs. He didn't realize what he did have. He even lost his children for the most part. I somehow think he is getting it now though because he is very humble and nice when he talks to me, which is unusual. Kind of strange that it took all that loss and perhaps he's realizing it now. Who knows?
Maybe there was some denial of reality for me though because it took getting out of that relationship to realize how bad it was???
Charlie
This message has been edited by charlie288 on May 10, 2005 9:15 AM
Cory, all I can do is stand and applaud. I totally agree with your last thread. I now see my H doing a lot of self examination, but only when I encourage it. Sometimes it's very difficult for him, but he's trying and that's a big step. He always says that I've always been the one who has been in-touch with myself and he can never understand how I can do this even with my busy schedule, but now we are learning together and that's the most important thing on this path that we have chosen to take. We hit that "fork in the road" and we are only barely past it, but we have chosen to continue on the path of togetherness and do whatever it takes to stay there.
Haven't been in for a while, dropped in and this post intrigued me.
How I characterize the differences? Let me attempt:
- hope for better:
"I know he fooled around but we can work together and I'm sure if we both try really hard we can get through this..."
- denial of reality:
"I know he fooled around but I know it won't happen again...it was a one-time thing. He says he's sorry and I believe him."
- sheer stupidity:
"I know he fooled around but she lured him into it. She's a homewrecker who set her eyes on my man and he couldn't help him self. Poor dear..."
Personally I don't think I ever went through the sheer stupidity phase but for sure I was in denial for a while and hopeful for a long time afterwards.
-hope for better (life, relationship, etc.),
-denial of reality
-outright stupidity.
I feel that these things are all interlaced. In my situation I really had serious denial - to the point that I was having anxiety attacks, losing my hair, losing 25 lbs, not sleeping and I kept wondering why. Everything was right there and I knew it was going on but I could not face it. Once I opened my eyes a little bit I was filled with major stupidity (trying to fix something that I couldn't), hope for the better and still some denial.
Mentally I couldn't handle it anymore and reality hit me very hard. I had no choice but to get out of my married life to save myself. Once I was physically out of the house I could see things clearer and now have a tad bit of hope for a new life and better things for me.
Is it just me, or are there major similarities among all the responses here?
Amy, I particularly identify with your response. First there's the churning unease. We see, but we don't want to believe. Hope reinforces denial. Or is it hope?
I now understand that what once looked to me like "giving up hope" is really "letting go". I absolutely cannot change or force change in someone else's behavior unless I sign his or her paycheck (my employees) or keep a roof over his head and food in his belly (my son). Even those "power over" situations are limited: employees who tire of my rules can quit, and my son can simply ignore me or play me off his mother (if he figures out that he can, as his older brother did).
Once I let go and looked at things realistically, I understood that there was probably no hope for a decent relationship with my exwife...but there is plenty of hope for a decent LIFE. Q posted the lyrics from the Stevie Nicks/Fleetwood Mac song "Landslide" this week...
"Well I've been afraid of changin'
'cause I built my life around you..."
And right there it is. It wasn't hope, it was FEAR keeping me in denial and anger. As I have let go of fear, I have found hope again.
And that gets us back to a contention I made a few years ago... The everything we do, the choices we make, etc., at their most basic, are based on fear.
Why do I work so hard running the Foundation? Yes, I'm passionate, yes, I care about my fellow blindies, especially the younger ones that have just been diagnosed. You can attributes such as dedication and others like it as well to this.
The REAL reason? When I'm brave enough to admit it, like now, I'm scared sh*tless of going blind. Simple as that.
>>It wasn't hope, it was FEAR keeping me in denial and anger<<
Aren't you being a little hard on yourself, Chris?
"When a man loves a woman Deep down in his soul She can bring him such misery If she is playing him for a fool He's the last one to know Loving eyes can never see"
{WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN - Percy Sledge}
>>Once I let go and looked at things realistically, I understood that there was probably no hope for a decent relationship with my exwife<<
If you weren't the last one to know - now THAT would be cause for concern. Ain't nothing "wrong" with trying to hold on to a woman (or to sight) after the sell-by date.
>>>>>Ain't nothing "wrong" with trying to hold on to a woman (or to sight) after the sell-by date.<<<<
Yes, to me there is something wrong in trying to hold on an individual. There is an underlined power play, a control issue especially if the sell-by date has expired...
I think I understand where you are going with what you wrote. I think some of us try to hold on to is the "marriage" and we transfer that to our spouse.
I guess what I am trying to say, is that the concept of marriage encompasses holding on to you, while you hold on to me, while we BOTH try to hold on to the marriage,
Affairs are so destructive, we grasp at what we 'know' for a long time. And in truth, that is OK. We let go when we feel strong enough.
>>>>I guess what I am trying to say, is that the concept of marriage encompasses holding on to you, while you hold on to me, while we BOTH try to hold on to the marriage,<<<<
My turn to understand where you are going with what you wrote... but, (lol) personally I do not like the "holding on"...it is far too dependent upon who is leading... lol
but I do understand what you are saying...methink I am showing my far too independent streak this morning
Kats-showing my far too independent streak this morning > Too funny!
I was out hiking the dogs and thought " that Kats sure is independent!"
After an A, I think many of us grasp at an ideal that is an illusion. We so WANT to believe that the love our partners shared with us was exclusive. And then we find out that it wasn't. But what exactly did they share with the OP? Was it love, or was it just an illusion too?
"Mutually supportive." That sounds like a good marriage mantra to me.
Q, I think I can admit to myself that I stopped loving my wife long before I decided to let go. In other words, I wasn't hanging on to love. As MM wrote, I think I was hanging on to my MARRIAGE...partly out of fear of losing my kids, my house and my life; partly out of fear of growing old alone; partly out of fear that I am "damaged goods"; and partly out of my quaint notion that I was in a "mutually supportive partnership".
Now that I have stopped believing that being married is one of the essentials of my life, I think I am less apt to be afraid of losing my kids (or possessions); less concerned about growing older; pretty sure I'm not "damaged goods"; and that I sure as hell was never in a "mutually supportive partnership".
I will never forget something RW wrote two sets of boards ago about "stripping away the veils" that cloud our vision.
Rewriting marital history, or simply seeing the truth clearly and without romance blurring my vision? I dunno. I don't think I was the last to know, just the last to admit it.
"""""After an A, I think many of us grasp at an ideal that is an illusion. We so WANT to believe that the love our partners shared with us was exclusive. And then we find out that it wasn't. But what exactly did they share with the OP? Was it love, or was it just an illusion too?"""""
I would appreciate the answers in plain ol' English, please.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. These answers could probably be added or maybe found in Q's "Quick guide to affair recovery".
So I'm in the shower this morning, and this whole thread started running through my brain...
To me, I think some of it comes down to pre and post affair mindsets on marriage.
One of the things I had to get beyond was the pre-afair thinking that marriage denotes some kind of ownership over the other. Ownership denotes control. Obviously, we all learned that we DON'T own nor control our spouses.
Post affair, that mindset changes radically, and it is NOT an easy thing to accept. For me, I think my mindset shifted a bit easier, as I'd already dealt with something bad in my life that I had no control over. But for some others, it seems to be an area that they can't seem to get past.
Why? That's for better minds than mine to figure out..
Coming from an Italian family steeped in 'old thinking' - pater familias - a very autocratic and paternalistic way of thinking as a female child I was under the control of my father until I came legally of age - at 21 (now it is 18). I spent my youth in a love/hate relationship with this man and rebelled at every opportunities, valid or not. Even today when I
hear 'control', I associate the word with 'rebellion' lol.
Thru trial and error I have come to the conclusion - right or wrong - that control without either explanation or education is a form of abuse. As far as 'ownership' I claim ownership to my behaviors most of the time (lol) - and my 'stuff'.... lol. I even don't consider owning my pets... I see myself as their care taker, and in turn they have taught me so much.
Although sometimes I feel stupid about not realizing what was going on, when I really think about it, I don't believe we were stupid...A LOT of effort went into fooling us...Our spouses whom we thought we knew (after all, many of us were with them for years or decades before they cheated) were lying to us...How were we to know that our spouse that was honest for 15 years (in my case) would suddenly start lying? They were purposely deceiving us...in many cases, getting together during work hours or at other times when we would have no way of knowing....In my H's case, at the beginning of the A, he was only seeing her once every month or two...How would I have figured that out?
One thing I have learned is that we really only know what people tell us...It is creepy for me to think about the times I thought my H was at work but he had really called in sick to spend a day with her...In my reality he was at work...but no, that was not true...In these days of cell phones, people can be anywhere and saying they are somewhere else...
Maybe I was a bit naive in thinking that As only happen when people are drinking. In my work experience there were two groups of people...the family people who went home after work...and the partiers who went out to bars after work, had affairs, etc...I had only witnessed As starting with people who were drinking heavily...Since H and I don't drink and do the bar scene, it never occured to me that he could cheat...I thought those things only happened when people were drinking heavily....But, no, my H managed to start an A stone cold sober....
I am responsible for keeping myself faithful. My spouse is not responsible for keeping me faithful. I expect my spouse to keep herself faithful. Whether I succeed or fail is up to me, not her. I expect my wife either to remain faithful or to tell me she wants a divorce. If she chooses to define that expectation as "controlling" then I don't need her. I do need to know that is the way she looks at fidelity, however and I need to know before we get married, not after her affair.
Based on what I know, after an affair has been discovered, unfaithful spouses often attempt to pathologize their betrayed partners. Betrayed partners are often accused of being "too controlling", for example. My X said to me on more than one occasion "you don't own me" when I was questioning her about her affair. That is more than a cute trick. It is an effective strategy for keeping betrayed spouses off balance. It is effective because betrayed spouses tend toward extravagant self-doubt anyway. Feeding that self-doubt can keep a betrayed spouse on the hook for years.
Expecting your spouse to remain faithful isn't "controlling". Expecting your spouse to remain faithful doesn't indicate that you believe that you "own" your spouse. There is nothing weird or mistaken or pathological about expecting your spouse to remain faithful.
Also, beware of people who accuse you of being "controlling". Most control freaks will accuse others of being "controlling", especially when they run into some resistance. Accusing someone of being controlling an effective method of maintaining control.
This message has been edited by Quen10 on May 15, 2005 6:21 PM
Q, I think I agree with you more than I disagree, but maybe I wasn't clear. I especially agree with that last part: she who cried "controlling" was actually the one in the controlling business. You're right, expecting honesty and openness and accountability are not "control" mechanisms. They're part of marriage.
That was the point of view I was taking in what I wrote...she had the ILLUSION of control, more than actual control. The "off-balance" stuff (and the "down-the-rabbithole-through the looking-glass" and the old switcheroo): all about control.
Well I'm getting a reply on here somewhat late but WTH.
"The REAL reason? When I'm brave enough to admit it, like now, I'm scared sh*tless of going blind. Simple as that."
I was also fearful of losing my marriage and not my H who I had seen as having problems for years. I had seen him pushing away from my family and even his own for many years and just never knew how to identify that as being "wrong" because he was the only man I was ever married to. I didn't realize the huge impact his mom had on him because of her severe control issues. Now I find it hard to believe that I couldn't see how these things contributed to our relationship for so many years.
I didn't want out also out of fear, plain and simple, yet was in denial or maybe even was just too naive for years thinking it was LOVE. Fear of raising two kids (one w/a disability) by myself, fearful that I wouldn't meet anyone else because I had a child with a disability (I just didn't know how people would take that although I am fully accepting of my son and he's a great kid), fear of not having the financial backing my H provided and the lifestyle we had, fear of being a "divorcee" and feeling like a black sheep in my family, fear that my kids would not take divorce well and on and on. I am over all that fear now though and I feel far better now than I did when I was married to him. I think once the lifting of all that fear was over with I was able to accept ex as a flawed individual, someone who would never change and a man I really didn't want to be with and probably hadn't for years. I realized that I didn't "love" or "need" him. I also realized that I could remain friendly with him because it was he who would lead a sad life and I could be happy.
Chris, excellent comment about hope and fear. I think fear grips you to the core during this process and it can easily be confused with hope. Charlie's reply sums up many of the issues I also went through - most of them rooted in fear.
So, I keep thinking...is it fear that motivates you to stand up for yourself in the end? Maybe the very things we are scared of are also the backbone of who we are??? I was so afraid to leave, but everyday I took another step towards doing that very thing. Perhaps you get so scared for yourself that you jolt yourself into another reality check and something in your mind says "you are terrified but you must do this".
The control issue is something that I will think about for the rest of the day today. I have some very harsh realities to face on that topic.....
Amy, you asked, "So, I keep thinking...is it fear that motivates you to stand up for yourself in the end?"
I believe so. The end result of fear is ALWAYS action, or inaction, which is a kind of action when you think about it... The way the action manifests itself will depend on the individual, the situation and circumstances of the moment. And as that moment changes, your actions may change with it. Many times, you don't know HOW it's going to work itself out until it's happened.
Look at it from a fighting standpoint. Many people hear the phrase, "fight or flight" when talking about this, but that phrase overlooks another important type of action: Freezing in place. When dealing with affair recovery, you encounter all 3 of them many times throughout the healing process.
I couldn't thank you enough for your last post. I have been living so terrified of my situation that I never thought of fear as you described it. What you wrote is completely true for me.
Thanks for taking that one step further - it helped me to realize this from a larger perspective.
Amy, the REAL big step is learning to take the fear that you have and turn into a POSITIVE action for you.
I think you're getting the first part, that fear IS a natural feeling that we all feel every day to some extent. The next part is tougher: What are you going to DO with that fear? Are you going to let it overcome you, freezing you in place? Are you going to turn it into the energy you need to fight? Or are you going to take that energy and use it to escape what you are afraid of?
I would LOVE to give you the answer, but that's something only you can do. For me, I made the decision to fight. My fight continued until I got to the point where I realized that my fight was unwinnable unless my W wanted to JOIN me in the fight. At that point, I tossed it to her. I'm happy to say that she decided to join me in the fight.
Whatever decision you DO make, try to make it for the right reasons, reasons that are not based on fear.
<What are you going to DO with that fear? Are you going to let it overcome you, freezing you in place?>
I certainly did that freeze in place deal for several months scrambling around trying to "fix" this mess on my own and getting no where. I lived through that part already. Now, I would like to see myself in the future as someone that learned some very big lessons at a great cost and use that to be better on my own. I have a lot to learn about being happy with myself and letting go of the many games that I functioned under for years. I need to find myself again.
<Are you going to turn it into the energy you need to fight?>
There is no fight left in me for saving my marriage. Truth be told, I believe that my H had this A to ensure I would leave the marriage. The "exit affair" is what I think they call it. He went to counseling one time & never went back (I think because he felt like he was being told there were bigger issues in his past that were part of the reason for the affair).
He did not want to end the A, he lied about it actually being an A many times so it could continue, he then said that "he didn't know what he wanted" - another justification to continue the A and then I had to throw in the towel or lose my mind. I could not take it any more. The skill and aptitude he has for lying are amazing and it was killing me to look at him being such a deceiver.
So, after many months of hell, I have relocated and I have to move forward. When I told him I could not stay he came back at me with "I didn't love you enough before the A". Well, the truth hurts and that was probably the only truthful thing he said to me during this saga. Never once did he ask me to stay or anything like that....he simply is in love with the OP. He is in the process of pursuing the OP, who is also filing for divorce. All in all, I do believe they will end up together and that is what their intentions were all along. I had to face that and just accept it. I do not want to dwell on their future together or think of either of them at all. I simply would like to get on with my life, come to terms with all of this and be my own person again - and be HAPPY.
<Or are you going to take that energy and use it to escape what you are afraid of?>
Now, here's a question that I think I will write down and remember! I hope not! Everyday I wake up and think of the things I am afraid of. I hope to be able to overcome these things and not be an escapee. I have to make a conscious effort to focus on this one every single day.
I know every situation like this has it's own circumstances and I really did wish and hope mine had worked out differently. I had so hoped that my H could have had the strength and desire to have overcome this but it did not play out thay way. Regardless of what would have happened in the end, it would have been nice to have seen a desire to save our marriage, some real attempt on his part. But, that just doesn't happen all the time. At least your W wanted to try is what I am saying. I am very glad for you and others that can get through this and survive - because it is the biggest obstacle I can imagine overcoming.
I am relating to so much of what you all have written here...I'm uncertain where to start...
My ex definitely had a pay off to having an angry wife...helped him justify his emotional detachment from me so he could get involved w/other women. One of the things I'm realizing is that he gave me "clues" when he was ready to end each EA. This way I could "react" (get angry) about his emotional detachment from me; my reaction gave him a reason to break off each A at that point. Guess they got too emotionally involved for his comfort...or whatever. Anyway...then he would "refocus" on us/our marriage...and the dance would start all over again.
Bottom line is that my anger fed the come here...go away dance we did for so many years.
Fear!? UGH!! Kept me with this man for many years...more than I like to think about at times. When I finally decided that I couldn't live w/the pain, fear, etc...any longer, I was able to walk through it, and leave. The fear of being alone (I carried that one for a long time) isn't paralyzing anymore. I've decided (I get weird when I come "home")...that I may just be like my Gran's...both lived their lives alone from about my age on. Might just be OK...I'll be the eccentric Auntie/Granna/Mom...dog person...cats make me sneeze. Anyway...one Granny was very happy w/her life alone; I can be too.
Cory, what you describe as flight/fight/freezing is a response to trauma of any kind. Funny, I remember telling my counselor (just recently) that I never freeze...I run...or I fight like hell. You know what? I freeze, too. I stayed in a marriage for years beyond what was good for me...and I allowed the fear I felt to "freeze" me. Need to think about this some more.
Thanks everyone for a terrific thread...lots to think about here.
<<<Are you going to turn it into the energy you need to fight?>
There is no fight left in me for saving my marriage. Truth be told, I believe that my H had this A to ensure I would leave the marriage.>>
Sorry Amy, I should have clarified. What I meant by that question is using your energy to fight for YOUR future, whether that is with or without your spouse. Either way, fighting for YOUR future is the question...
It has been some time since this topic was posted (perhaps I am not following some protocal here in regards to bringing up past threads). I have been reading through so many other posts and many books to ponder some of the subjects/emotions that have been brought up here.
I wanted to reply to your comment about fear and MY future....I had to spend numerous days thinking about that one. As it turns out I realize now that I spent many years of my marriage caring for H - I was never important nor was the marriage itself. I was the doormat that was always going to be there to support him no matter what the circumstances.
Coming to terms with that reality and this concept about fear creating a fight/flight situation, I am working to understand that I can only do for myself and will need to overcome some fears in the process to ensure my own happiness and success in life. I couldn't thank you enough for putting that one out there. I don't think I can really put into words how that statement has affected me and how much I appreciate those questions. Everyday is an education in mysef now and trying to face some challenges I would normally be afraid of. Many thanks to you.
