Hi GT...

After your response to me on another thread, telling me that our situations were similar, I wanted to learn more about your story. I just read your "Getting There (Very Long Version)" story in the Members forum, and it is so clear and eloquently stated. If only everyone's WS could read that, they might truly understand what is so wrong about an affair, the reasons for it, and the denial and "fog" that encompasses a WS in the process.

That said, I learned in your story about how long it took for you to understand what you had done, and take responsibility for your actions...that even though you broke it off, you went back and sustained it against your better judgement...and it took a long time before you could be perfectly honest with your husband...as well as yourself.

I know you've been reading my posts, and you're aware that my W has had an "epiphany"...a moment of clarity where she sincerely seemed to "get it", and appears to be trying her hardest to regain my trust, love and respect through her words...and her actions. And I know that each individual is different, and each A story - no matter how similar - has its own particular details...but I guess what I'm asking is, knowing what you know and feeling what you felt, do you think it's possible that someone can come to that moment of clarity so soon after Discovery (6 weeks today that I discovered it on a chat window she accidentally left open)? I mean, she sounds sincere...her words are exactly what you described...the flood gates opening, telling me (what she says is) everything, and the appearance of her truly wanting to make things better. I even test her once in a while with questions, and she appears truly revulsed by the thought of the OM and her attraction for him.

But then I think to myself how flawlessly she could deceive me in the first place...the perfect liar in a hopelessly selfish hard shell, and I wonder if there's something there...even the smallest litte twinge that would allow her to contact him again, even when she knows it's wrong...because she knew it was wrong in the first place and that didn't stop her. Like a junkie who is and always will be an addict, regardless of recovery...what harm can one little hit do?!? I see that with a friend who recently had an affair as well...that inability to truly break it off. My wife has been advising her that she must, which also gives me confidence that she's sincere...but she's so completely broken my trust and respect for her that the doubt is still there regardless.

I wonder to myself if I'm being naive, moving only across town instead of across the planet. Thinking about her in our new house, away from the watchful eye of his wife...in a place where the neighbors don't know the OM, so they can be much more discreet than they were before. He's a cop...I guarantee he'll know her new address before she memorizes it (I knew the history of every neighbor within three blocks of us because of his access to anyone's file. Scary thought, isn't it?).

I guess I'm just looking for your thoughts (and anyone else's who wants to chime in, please do) on rebuilding trust....how your husband coped with this stage...and if this "too good to be true" epiphany is just that, because after reading through these threads, it doesn't seem like anybody's WS "gets it" that quickly.

Anyway...those are the first in maybe a long line of questions for you if that's OK. Your perspective and insight are extremely helpful, I know that. I've just had to gather the strength to want to hear the answers.

Hi Bob,

Hope you don't mind my two cents on some of your questions that you posted. I had several conversations with one of my wifes best friends, following the A and I was surprised by the consistency of what her friend and I where being told by my wife. So, I do believe that people understand the consiquences of their actions and the negative impact it has on loved ones. I also noticed a cerain amount of frustration in my wife, she would become impatient with my inability to let the past go (in the early stages).I know that my wife missed the OM in the beginning weeks, only because I was informed by a third party that she was trying to make phone contact with him. She said that there was some unfinished business that she wanted answers too, I told her I didn't want to hear more lies and excuses! This part of the A can be very difficult to handle from a spouses angle, you have gone through so much, it's difficult to maintain a sense of control.

As you may recall, I've stated that it has been over three years since my D-day, I believe in my heart that my wife still has some feelings for the OM. They seem to hang onto this feeling that the OTHER PERSON would be a better partner, even though there is no real outside pressures that influence people within the A. It's total fantasy!

I will tell you that if we did not have children, I would not have remained in the marriage. I care about my wife but there is so much unhappiness at times that I wonder if it will ever go away. We have a comon bond, our children, home and years together. Beyond all that, we really don't interact.

With all that being said, I feel that if I would divorce my wife that she would probably fall apart. I don't mean to say that she couldn't find some one else to share her life. Not many people are willing to stay in a marriage such as ours, it has takens it's toll on both of us. There are still events that trigger my memory, I had this happen to me this past weekend. Unfortunately, my kids would be the ones to suffer. This is why I will not walk away!

My goal in life is to try to helps others to avoid making the same mistakes as my wife and to support those who are dealing with the aftermath.

Gary

That's what I fear Gary...the thought of living in a prison, because I know me...I know my thought process...it's telling me I can never forgive her for what she threw away, & that I'll never be able to trust or truly respect her again. That's obvious (at least right now) from my post above, in that I still doubt her word, even when she seems so sincere. I just need to know if I'm being naive...if the thought process of a WS ever really changes once they've become attached to someone else. How would I ever know that she's truly sincere, when she can lie to me about something so important for over a year...without remorse or regrets?

At the very least, it will never, ever be the same between us, which - in my mind - was magical. I was so proud of her as a mother, as a truly trusted best friend, and I told everyone within earshot that she was the greatest wife in the world...yes, even her...often. I think about not having that true love and respect for her anymore...ever, which I certainly don't now...and I wonder if I'm better off not wasting time for both of us and just get out.

But I have the same issue with the kids. In fact, on a different thread, I may ask how many WS's came from a family that was affected by infidelity (whether divorced, or reconciled...my W's parents being in the latter...and there's no way that didn't affect her in some manner, even if she found out MUCH later in life). I'll bet the results would be very interesting, and staggering. It would kill me to do that to my perfect children.

Bob...I am NOT a WS so the information I have to share may not be worth reading. My initial reaction to your post is that you will probably NEVER trust her to the same extent you did previously. The ONLY information you have to go on is what she tells you. At this point in your life, I think that you probably doubt some things that she says, or even wonder if she is telling the whole truth. How can you ever know FOR SURE....you can't, unless you shackle yourself to her and follow here everywhere she goes. I think for you, it is about "letting go" of you suspicions and simply telling yourself that there is NOTHING you can do about whether or not she is truthful. I do think that some people can make the strides she has made in this amount of time. You don't know what has been going through her head and for how long. This has been a process for her as well and she may have been focusing on it and trying to make sense of it long before you found out. So, ultimately, she could be further along than you think she should be. I think the decision to move across town is going to provide you with more insight and an sense of calm. You indicated that your family found a home that you each love. Buy the home...move....if things don't work out for you, you won't be any worse off than you are now. Perhaps a few steps back, but no drastic changes that can't be dealt with in the future. I hope you can find a sense of resolve....she is really going to have to do some hard work to convince you about what you need to know. BUT, there has to come a point for you when having the question you ask answered, is all that you need. I don't know how long that will be for you. Her behavior and reactions will certainly help. You don't want to become a vouyeur(I don't recall how to spell) you are then giving your life over to her. I wish you luck in your efforts at resolution.

""""I just need to know if I'm being naive...if the thought process of a WS ever really changes once they've become attached to someone else.""""

Oh yeah, it can or I wouldn't be with my wife if it hadn't. It took me a long time to trust even a little bit though. That is normal. When a WS truly "gets it" and they are completely out of the fog (which BTW, it's early yet, Bob), it will hit them like a ton of bricks. You will see an un-nerving in your wife that is almost equal to the devastation that you felt when you found out. When you see this happen, Bob, you will have to prop her up and be there for her. I know this doesn't sound fair after what she and your friend did. But it is part of the process, weird as it sounds.

Bob, keep reminding yourself that you are new at this. Trust is a hard thing to get back and it takes a considerable track record. She must get it back by her actions matching her words. 6 weeks worth of actions is just a beginning, a drop in the bucket.


Edited to add:

Does she answer your questions satisfactorally? If you think that she is answering completely even though the answers are hard for you to hear, that is a good action that will help you trust her again. If you are getting political answers that are intended to spare your feelings or her feelings then that is a bad action.

Hang in there.

Yes, I do feel like she's telling me the truth, and answering my questions honestly without pulling any punches. You're right, that does hurt, but I make sure to thank her for being honest after she tells me. I still have that little voice telling me she's not divulging everything though. When I bring this up to her, she swears up and down that this isn't true, and she appears as if she's trying to review her memory banks for something she may have inadvertantly left out...but she has always been a master of ommission when she's trying to weasle her way out of something or get her way, even before this affair business. She's never outright lied to my face before this (well, Bob the naive SAP says she didn't anyway), so now that I know it's soooooo easy for her to do, the "sins of ommission" seem to be jumping up in my face to get out like a dog that's been trapped inside his house all day drinking water.

So, yes...in effect, I feel like she's trying to be straightforward for the most part. But like I said before, she has so completely shattered my trust and respect for her that I can't be convinced.

DUH!, huh?

""""I feel like she's trying to be straightforward for the most part.""""

Then you are off to a good start.

Edited to add:

Bob, you gotta remember, your wife is trying to remember over a year's worth of incidents laced with emotions. Add to that, that she and OM were bull shitting each other. You know, making themselves look better to each other and rewritting their own marital histories to justify the affair to themselves. The real truth can't help but be blurry. Think about how hard it would be for you to remember everything in perfect sequence for one of your 4 or 5 month work projects a year after you did the project.

P.S. Does bull shitting have one t or two ts?

Bull Shitting has 2 t's....a short vowel warrants a double consonant (how do you spell consonant?)

LMAO. Thanks for the laugh, you two.

Sage, you fit in SO well. I am glad you're here.

Chris.

>>>P.S. Does bull shitting have one t or two ts?<<<

It's definately two t's but technically I believe it's one word. Bull shitting refers to a function performed by a bull. Bullshitting can be performed by any old animal.

Bob>>do you think it's possible that someone can come to that moment of clarity so soon after Discovery>>

I think it's possible that someone could have a moment of clarity that soon after Dday, but I think it takes a long time to fully get what you've done. I had several moments of clarity right after our Dday. I realized that my husband and I had lost something we'd never get back, but didn't know how painful it would be for both of us that we'd lost it. I knew I wanted to rebuild our marriage, but didn't know how hard that was going to be. I saw those things to some degree right away but it wasn't until years later that I fully realized (as much as a WS ever realizes) how devastating my affair was to our marriage. I believe it's possible that your wife could get it to some degree at this point, but still have a long way to go before it truly hits her.

<<I wonder if there's something there...even the smallest litte twinge that would allow her to contact him again, even when she knows it's wrong...because she knew it was wrong in the first place and that didn't stop her. Like a junkie who is and always will be an addict, regardless of recovery...what harm can one little hit do>>>

I'd say it depends on how strong your wife's emotional attachment to the OM was as to whether or not she will try to contact him again. I broke the no contact rule once and went to see the OM. But something in me snapped that day and I knew the addiction was over. I have to be honest and say that for several months after that I still felt the urge to call him, but I never did. So I don't think it's true that once you're an addict you'll always be one.  

You asked how my husband got through the trust stage. I withheld details of my affair for several years after Dday so that slowed down the trust process for us. Once I opened up my husband felt safer with me and the trust issues fell into place after that.  

Bob, what is your wife doing now on a daily basis? Do her words match her actions? Is she willing to do the things you ask her to do? To me that's the true test of whether a WS is starting to get it and whether or not they want to continue to get it. 

GT
 

 

H2C >>You know, making themselves look better to each other and rewritting their own marital histories>>

Bullshitting has 2 t's but "rewriting" only has one.   

GT  (the resident smart ass)

 

Thanks so much, GT...

Yes, it does appear - for the most part - that her actions are matching her words. Once our MC told her that if she makes a promise to me, she damn well better keep it, she understood that part of it...at least until she decided on her own to interpret exactly what that means, and fulfill the promises HER way, which is essentially the root of the problem. It was only shortly after those "interpretations of promises" (sounds like a bad poetry book) that she had her "Epiphany" and started to turn things around....only about 10 days ago.

She now keeps her promises (for the most part...the flowers were pretty dead, and she "didn't have time" to replace them...which is BS, because the Ralph's Supermarket stays open until at least 11:00, always has roses, and is less than a 1 minute drive from our house. The selfishness is still there no matter how much she appears to be trying to kill it), and has stopped trying to interpret them.

Other areas she's working on...she tells me that she loves me, and never hesitates to tell me how sorry she was for getting lost, and is always willing to answer any question I may have (whether it is an honest answer or not...well, read above for that. It appears to be honest..but...). Although, it was interesting today...she called me from her work, and always ends the call with "I love you"...but I could hear her workmates in the area today, and noticed she DIDN'T say "I love you" to me this time. I thought that was rather curious..as if she was ashamed to say it to her own husband. Nice!

She's also told me that she's seriously considering quitting that job that she loves so much in order to "be there for me and her kids" more readily, and keep this big beautiful new house she's getting as "punishment" for her affair with the next door neighbor (hell, screw a couple more neighbors & we'll eventually be living in Beverly Hills!). I digress, I apologize...although I would like to point out that she's losing precious little, except maybe a lover in this deal. She gets a new house, gets to keep her husband and the "package" that goes along with him (for now), such as security, financial stability, etc., and her children are none the wiser nor affected by her indiscretions. OK, I digress further...

She's also taking off her nails, which on the surface sounds like no big deal, but for the last two years - since she's started-in on her quest for ultimate selfishness & started to villify me without ever telling me why - it was always one of those little irritants that I know she did to me, whether subconsciously or on purpose...always making a nail appointment in the middle of a Sunday when we could either be enjoying each others' company or going out and doing something as a family. She was even pitiful enough on one of my trips home this year from Hong Kong to make a pedicure appointment for me at the same time as hers, so I wouldn't bitch about her going. I was stupid enough, pussy enough, whatever, to go along with it, once and only once. Funny thing though, she didn't offer that up as why she's removing the nails...just that they cost $50/month to maintain, and she's seen how big the mortgage is on the new house & she knows things will be tight, especially if she quits her job. My guess is she doesn't even realize that this was another in a long line of activities that contributed to her "quest for ultimate selfishness".

I told her the other day that I'm no longer expecting her to figure out what I would project on her as to how to show me true remorse and win back my trust, nor will I dictate to her how to act. I tell her straight out what I'm thinking now, and she processes that information and we discuss it. The latest of which was, that if she truly truly loves me and is really trying to show me, then she should be showing me more signs of outward affection, especially in public...that she should be positive and loving when she talks about me to other people...my "Champion", reversed, if you will...that I believe that she carries the burden to think creatively as to how to attempt to win back (and maintain) my affections. This all stemmed from the Revenge Affair thread and thought process I'm in the middle of right now. I'm perfectly honest with her....she's damaged everything I held true about our marriage, and I look at women and opportunities in a completely different light now. Not by choice, but by her betrayal. She acknowledged and told me that she understood that thought process, and that she knows what it is she has to do now. I'm not sure I've seen what that is, but I have at least seen a more sincere closeness (sincerity or desperation? Dunno!) than I've seen in a couple years. Maybe that is it.

So, to answer your questions GT, I see the change, and I still see the selfishness. The former is outweighing the latter a little bit I think, and perhaps only 10 days after the "Epiphany", I shouldn't be expecting too much more than that. But like H2C tells me, I'm new to this as well, so I don't know what I should be expecting.

It is tough to trust their motives at this stage. Keep talking to us. Keep watching her actions. Keep listening to your gut. Keep the kids safe. Stop questioning the fairness of this, it never will be fair. Acceptance of what has happened is probably the hardest part. It took me a long time too.

Bob, I can't believe how much you sound like me. You can split hairs as good as I can.

Wish you well, H2C

Bob

You wrote>>but I could hear her workmates in the area today, and noticed she DIDN'T say "I love you" to me this time. I thought that was rather curious..as if she was ashamed to say it to her own husband<<

Did you ask her why she didn't say I love you? Not making excuses for her, but it sounds like you're doing a little mind reading here. Maybe there was another reason she didn't say it at that particular time?

<<The selfishness is still there no matter how much she appears to be trying to kill it), and has stopped trying to interpret them>>

If your wife is anything like I was it took a long time to become a selfish person and it's going to take a long time to change that behavior. I assure you it's not going to happen over night.

As unfair as it seems, please try to keep in mind that your wife has her own healing going on. She's trying to figure out which end is up just as much as you are. I know it seems that she should be willing to do anything and everything at this point to prove herself to you, but she's only human. It can be overwhelming at times as the WS to know what your spouse needs from you. It's good that you are telling her exactly what you need. Keep that type of communication going.

<<I would like to point out that she's losing precious little, except maybe a lover in this deal>>

I don't know your wife so obviously I can't speak for her. She could very well be thinking the things you've stated. I certainly know from where you sit that it seems all she lost was a lover and she gets to keep her husband, family, and her house. Those thoughts entered my mind at first too. But over time I came to see that I'd lost far more than the excitement of the affair was ever worth.

I'd like to go back to something I mentioned above and your wife contacting the OM. Has your wife been to any type of counseling? Does she know why she turned to someone else? The obvious answer is always selfishness, but I think it goes deeper than that. And I'm a firm believer in counseling for the WS.

Sounds like she is trying to change her behavior. And is matching her words with actions.

GT

 

Yes, I told her right away (something I'm making sure to do, not assume she knows what I'm thinking, but to communicate it immediately to her) on our next call that I was disturbed by that. We discussed it later that night. Her first reaction was, "Well, there were four or five people sitting around..." I told her that this is a perfect example of her actions speaking louder than her words, and that it's clear to me that she doesn't get it yet. She changed her story, blaming herself for being upset with me about a previous argument/incident in which she didn't communicate her feelings to me (the thing that got us into this mess in the first place). Her reason was sound, and she stated that she used the "four or five people" excuse as a panic reason...that she didn't really mean it, but please, there had to have been some of that in her thought process. Otherwise, she wouldn't have even thought it to say it.

You are exactly right, it DID take a long while for her to create her hard shell of selfishness. I've been watching it develop for over two years, maybe more, and I know it all stemmed from her not being able to communicate properly with me, so there are two habits that took a long time to develop, and now she has to break. It's just so frustrating...I know I'm asking a lot very soon. I also know that if her "epiphany" was for real, it came very soon and I'm fortunate that it came quickly. I can tell you that if it hadn't, I probably wouldn't still be around...I was inches away before it happened.

As far as her not losing anything...she tells me that she knows she's lost a lot more. Her dignity for one...her self respect...my respect for her...her friends and family's respect (they are non-judgemental and still love her of course, but she did disappoint a lot of people, because this horrible thing she's done is SO incredibly uncharacteristic of her...people still judge, disappointment runs deep, and she knows she will always bear that). She understands that she has risked it all with her decision, and every day there's a chance that she could lose it all, which I can tell scares her.

All that said, and as much as she obviously understands (at least, what she's TELLING me she understands), it's very clear to me that she still doesn't grasp the whole impact of what she's done, and what it means. Her actions show me that she doesn't get it yet...but like you say, she's going through her own healing and maybe she doesn't know how to get it yet. I know her though, and I've always had an issue with her in how I thought she could be very cold when it came to remorse, or understanding the impact of her actions. She has always claimed that it's because she internalizes these feeling...that they're no less real. I don't know if that's true or not...I question whether she has the capacity to fully understand. I guess time will tell...but that's why I'd like her to correspond with you. Maybe that's just my wishful thinking and I shouldn't force that wish on her. I dunno.

Yes, she is seeing an IC. That was something I requested of her, and she wanted to do that for herself anyway. That's at least a good sign. She hasn't addressed what made her stray yet...with either her IC or our MC. Don't know if it's becaus she's still establishing the basics, or if she's just trying to avoid it because it will be too difficult to face. Either way is understandable, I guess.

Bob wrote<< I know her though, and I've always had an issue with her in how I thought she could be very cold when it came to remorse, or understanding the impact of her actions>>

I was that way as well at one point, so I can relate to what you say about your wife. I had walls built around me and I'd learned to shut the feelings down. It made me come across as cold. But the thing with me was, I may have come across that way on the outside, but I was dying on the inside. So it's possible your wife is internalizing her feelings like she said and hiding the pain. My feelings of pain were very real but I never let anyone see them. I didn't even want my husband to see me cry.

As for understanding the impact of her actions or having the capacity to fully understand them, I can say that I didn't for a very long time after Dday. I still don't think I can ever fully comprehend what my husband went through.

>>I guess time will tell...but that's why I'd like her to correspond with you. Maybe that's just my wishful thinking and I shouldn't force that wish on her. I dunno>>

I'd be glad to correspond with your wife if/when she's open to that. Just let me know. If she's not comfortable on the boards I'd be willing to correpsond through emails.

GT