Teresa, I moved this post so that more will see it and may be able to relate and respond to you. The member's forum is set up differently for the member's history and when a person responds to a history in that forum the post does not go to the top of the list like in the other forums. In other words your response will probably be over looked in the member's forum and you presented some good questions below. I will give my answers later.

H2C

Re: Hurt2Core November 18 2005, 3:51 AM

I would like to figure out how to cut and paste dialogue so I do not have to do so much typing. But anyway, you said "If you can imagine needing sex in a hurt marriage to reconnect..."
Yes I can relate. I need that. It was part of the once happy part of our marriage, even though it is now tainted (at least in my mind). We have not had sex in over a year. It is more than just physical to me. It is connected to being wanted and desired. A display of passion on my H's part I think would be extremely healing for me. Even if it is painful emotionally. The last few times we had sex I remembered thinking about him and her doing it. But I think after time those thoughts of them would be replaced by new and fulfilling ones between us. The last time I initiated sex with my H, he was responsive, however he lost his erection before we got very far and so...
I am not sure why that happnened. I told him it was ok that we would just try again some time. But he has not tried again and neither have I. He never had those problems before. I can only guess why it may have happened. He did not talk about it after that. Anyway, the very sacred part of our marriage that was violated to me needs to be reinstated and healed. But that is such a delicate facet of our being. I suffer with fear of rejection a lot. The lack of feeling desired sexually only makes this worse for me. Yeah, I'm a mess. But at least I have insight. Sometimes.

>>I would like to figure out how to cut and paste dialogue<<

Step 1 = copy text
-highlight the text using the mouse; type Ctrl+C;

Step 2 = open the "Message Text" window
-using the mouse, click on "Respond to this message" at the bottom of the post (and login if necessary)

Step 3 = past text
-using the mouse, place the cursor over the "Message Text" box and left-click the mouse once; type Ctrl+V

“”””It is more than just physical to me. It is connected to being wanted and desired.””””

Yeah, it is that way for me too. We are one of the older couples on the boards and since my wife’s affair happened after my wife was full blown menopausal well lets just say things have been more complicated in trying to get reconnected sexually. In fact I’ve sort of given up on that and I’m trying a different strategy.

“”””The last few times we had sex I remembered thinking about him and her doing it.””””

This is a real problem for me too. For me, I have a problem separating whether it is the hindering thoughts of them together or if it is a normal biological age thing of my own. Although driven, I don’t have the drive that I did at age 40.

“”””The last time I initiated sex with my H, he was responsive, however he lost his erection before we got very far and so...””””

I can just imagine how tough it would be for a remorseful man trying to regain the sexual connection. If you are fairly certain that you are seeing other signs of remorse from your H, I would say that statement above reflects just how much he feels bad for what he did. My wife, in her own ways went through the same thing. Look up the word vaginismis on a medical forum. It is a psychological condition that is most common in rape victims. That lasted about a year for her. Guilt darn sure interferes with the sex drive.

“”””But he has not tried again and neither have I.””””

I suspect that he is afraid of failure as a biological man. This is how it affected me too even though I was the faithful spouse. For years I felt inferior to OM or maybe any man since my wife had to go outside the marriage. Although for me it is not loss of erection, it’s like I can’t reach the finish line before I collapse from exhaustion and I’m in pretty good shape for my age. This was and still is probably the biggest hurtle for me to get over.

On a lighter note, I would have given anything if I could have lasted this long when I was 25 years old. LOL

“”””He never had those problems before.””””

Neither did I and I’m pretty sure there would be no problem for me at all if I had a different partner where there was a normal mental health state between us, a clean slate sorta speak. This doesn’t mean that I’m leaving my marriage. I vowed for better or for worse and I’m very hopeful that our connection will be retrieved with or without sex.

“”””Anyway, the very sacred part of our marriage that was violated to me needs to be reinstated and healed. But that is such a delicate facet of our being. I suffer with fear of rejection a lot. The lack of feeling desired sexually only makes this worse for me.””””

Yep, for us too. I think the lack of feeling desired sexually is a big one for me too. I wish that we were younger so that normal actions or better yet “uncontrollable reactions” were clearer. I think it would especially help me if I could see that in my wife however it’s tough on her as well. Her body responds much like your husbands from his guilt. What a mess this is.

“”””I suffer with fear of rejection a lot.””””

I understand this but in a reverse roll I guess. I feel that I’m not good enough, not man enough.

But I don’t think it is him rejecting you. I figure it is his own guilt that creates a fear of failure in him. Fear of failure will make you fail when otherwise you may not.

"I am not sure why that happnened. I told him it was ok that we would just try again some time. But he has not tried again and neither have I. He never had those problems before. I can only guess why it may have happened. He did not talk about it after that. Anyway, the very sacred part of our marriage that was violated to me needs to be reinstated and healed. But that is such a delicate facet of our being. I suffer with fear of rejection a lot. The lack of feeling desired sexually only makes this worse for me."

Teresa, nothing will change (it hasn't in a year, right?) if you don't at least attempt to make it happen. I suffered with fear of rejection too, even before the A. My subtle attempts for lovemaking were sometimes turned down and I just quietly licked my wounds without finding out why. I was always embarrassed to talk about sex with my husband. I couldn't bring myself to say what I wanted or needed, consequently, I often felt unfulfilled and he felt that he didn't know how to please me and got tired of trying. If nothing else, the A affair made me think about me, my wants, my needs, and I spoke up about them. I became very open about sex with my H. Yes, there have been times in the beginning where I thought about them during sex but not so much now. I give my H credit for making it about me. He focuses on pleasing me and because of my opening up he is more able to do that. The upside of this for him and for us is that as my pleasure builds, so does his. Please try to talk about it with your H. The payoff will be worth it if it helps you connect again. What do you have to lose?

H2C--you know I am also one of the older members on this board and like your wife, post-menopausal. Have you tried K-Y? Our bodies don't react like they did when we were younger no matter how turned on we are. It's a biological thing. If you've tried it, great. If not, get thee to a drug store fast. I can't believe what a difference it makes and don't know why I didn't try it sooner, like before the A. It's such a simple solution to a big problem. It's great to find a solution to something in this whole mess!

Yes, we’ve used KY and about 4 other brands. I prefer the warming kind but it costs a little more. I don’t know how it works but it actually feels just a bit warmer than body temperature when applying. It doesn’t give you that little cold jolt when applied like the regular kinds do.

“”””Our bodies don't react like they did when we were younger no matter how turned on we are.””””

Exactly, my wife’s body doesn’t react the same as when she was younger and then throw in a good dose of WS guilt. The lack of her reaction hinders my reaction. It is difficult for me to separate the age thing vs. whether or not I’M DESIRED any more. So if an older man like me needs to reconnect emotionally through sex with his older wife whose body doesn’t react the same any more, how does that happen? This has affected me psychologically by making me feel inadequate as a lover. Understand?

H2C

Who said, “The definition of a crazy man is someone who does something the same way over and over again yet expects a different outcome.” This is not meant to be insulting, please don’t take it that way. I hope the suggestions I make do not offend you, I really want to help. That being said, maybe it’s time to shake things up a little in the bedroom. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Do a little thinking, researching, etc. Is there something new you can introduce into your lovemaking that might be fun, exciting, and of course agreeable to both of you? Something new might get the reaction your looking for. After thirty-some years of marriage injecting a little spice into it can’t hurt. I’ve learned too that we don’t always have to make love. Sex just for the fun of it can be, well, fun!

I do understand about feeling inadequate. (I imagine it is much worse for a man.) My husband’s body doesn’t respond like it did before either. Besides age, there is the fact that he is on anti-depressants. (Thank goodness he is now at half the dosage he was at during the A.) Viagra helps some but it does not work miracles. My H tells me though that he gets more turned on by me than he ever did by the OW. I just have to believe that he is being truthful. I want to believe it. Has your wife ever said anything about that? He also tries very hard to satisfy me and to show me that I am desirable. (He still has a way to go on this outside of the bedroom.) I realize how personal this is and you certainly do not have to answer this to me, but does your W try to take care of your needs or is the responsibility all on your shoulders? Does she do or say things to show you that you are desirable? Does she know how much you need that? A lot is said about how women expect men to just know what they’re thinking or feeling or what they need. It is a two way street. Women need to be told what a man feels and wants and needs too. Don’t expect her to know if you don’t tell her.

If you have tried these things and talked about all of this, well, then I got no’thin. Don’t give up though, it’s too important. Good luck.

Angela

Angela, thank you so much for even talking about this with me. Many here have offered suggestions but they are all young whipper snappers and can’t quite relate. And bless them for trying and that they still have their pre menopausal sex drives.

“”””I realize how personal this is and you certainly do not have to answer this to me, but does your W try to take care of your needs or is the responsibility all on your shoulders? Does she do or say things to show you that you are desirable?””””

Yes, she is aware and she has gone above and beyond trying to show me that I’m desirable verbally. It is just tough for me to believe her because of the affair. And since her body won’t react like it used to, well how do I know for sure? She said some things in the first couple of weeks comparing me to OM that has left a gaping wound to me as a man. I know this was all said when we were both at emotional peaks while fighting. I know that she regrets it very much now. Back then she was still in the fog and OM was “all that and a bag of chips”. Now she can’t believe that he would stoop to cheating on his wife----go figure.

And yes, she really tries to take care of my needs. She is willing to do anything and we have tried a lot of things. We were very good at meeting each other's needs throughout our marriage until the affair. It’s me though. I go for over an hour in the most physical part of love making and collapse from exhaustion and can not reach that moment of uncontrollable release and neither does she. I think if she could, I would.

“”””Does she know how much you need that?””””

Yes, very much.

“”””Women need to be told what a man feels and wants and needs too. Don’t expect her to know if you don’t tell her.””””

That has never been a problem. I’m in the “minority” of men that can quickly get in touch with his feelings, identify them and then express them.

“”””Besides age, there is the fact that he is on anti-depressants.””””

My wife is on anti-depressants as well and lots of other meds that hinder sex drive. There is no hope that these meds will ever be reduced.

H2C
>Does she do or say things to show you that you are desirable?””””

>>Yes, she is aware and she has gone above and beyond trying to show me that I’m desirable verbally. It is just tough for me to believe her because of the affair. And since her body won’t react like it used to, well how do I know for sure?<<

Because she’s still there. Because she is still telling you. Because she is still trying. The affair was then, this is now. I realize I’m not one to give advice being only 5 months out, but I think there comes a point that for our own peace of mind we have to take some leaps of faith and believe. Yes, the trust we once had was destroyed. We believed them back then and they betrayed us. This is a new day though. A new beginning. If they are truly remorseful and if their actions show this, we owe it to ourselves to try to believe them. We’re hurting ourselves more if we don’t try. After all, the fact that we are still here shows that we want to believe them, right?

>>And yes, she really tries to take care of my needs. She is willing to do anything…>>

Sounds like she is doing everything she can THAT IS WITHIN HER CONTROL to do.

>>My wife is on anti-depressants as well and lots of other meds that hinder sex drive. There is no hope that these meds will ever be reduced.<<

You are looking for those involuntary responses from her that you used to get. The meds interrupt that autonomical nervous system response. In your head I know you know that. Your heart is still looking for it though as confirmation of your desirability. If nothing can be done about the meds, then all you can do is go by what she says and does. You’re pinning your hopes on something that can’t happen because of drugs. It is not her fault. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. You are not an inadequate lover because you cannot neutralize the effect of drugs. When you believe that you may be able to get the mental and physical release you are looking for.

""""You are not an inadequate lover because you cannot neutralize the effect of drugs. When you believe that you may be able to get the mental and physical release you are looking for.""""

I know that you are right about this. But when you have so many failed attempts you become very gun shy at "working" at it. It has actually become work and you were right a couple of posts above when you said that sex is supposed to be fun.

You had also mentioned viagra helping your H a little. I'm absolutely certain that I don't need viagra. I can take care of myself like a teenaged boy in relatively the same amonut of time. This problem exists strictly between me and my wife. And through talking this out with you I have discoverd that this problem is purely psychological for me.

For now it seems best to just be friends and maybe later when my mind and heart are more even in recovery......

Thanks, H2C

Dear H2C:

I’m lifting the Cone of Silence for a bit here. Shortly before, during and after his A, my H had erectile dysfunction (ED). It grew steadily worse after d-day to the point that I was seriously concerned about his mental and physical well-being. He entirely lost the ability to become aroused (not just with me, but even spontaneously throughout the day) and although the situation you describe is somewhat different, I think there may be some similarities.

One of the things that actually helped us get over some of the pain just after d-day was tackling this problem as a couple. I read everything I could find on ED, andropause, possible underlying medical conditions and talked to members of various support groups. It was very enlightening
and encouraging to hear from men, women and couples who were struggling with sexual dysfunction in their relationships and the ways they were dealing with it.

Something that helped tremendously was to rule out possible underlying physical and hormonal issues as a causative factor. H had a full physical with his GP and as we were lucky enough to live within driving distance of one of the top andro-endrocrinologists in the country, he managed to get an appointment. After a battery of hormone tests the specialist’s conclusion was that H’s ED was psychological. It was as we both suspected, but just knowing there was not an underlying physical problem was incredibly reassuring to H and I think it allowed him to fully address the mental aspect without wondering if there was something else wrong.

We experimented with a number of methods and techniques – the most successful being to refrain from intromission. Everything else was allowed, encouraged and welcomed! Twice if we felt like it! I think that gave us time to re-bond sexually and emotionally, to relax and play and to
gain a sense of comfort with each other during very uncomfortable times. Most importantly, it took the performance pressure away from H. Very gradually, over some months, H’s ability to have and maintain an erection slowly improved but it was a three-steps-forward-two-steps-back situation for a long while. We did our best to make no big deal out of it and celebrated the great times.
Strangely enough, I think we bonded more over this issue than any other crisis in our marriage.

At about the three years past d-day mark, incidents of ED were few and far between. Today, at 5 years post d-day (and at 55 years old)he has 100% recovered from his ED to his relief and joy (and mine too!).

H2C, you and your W are obviously in such distress over this – my heart goes out to you both. May I ask if you and your wife have done some research together into the problem you describe (ejaculatory incompetence -- a term I find as offensive as “impotence”) as well as NM's difficulties? Would sex therapy with a clinical psychologist be an option for you?

With best wishes, M.T.

Thanks MT.

“”””H2C, you and your W are obviously in such distress over this – my heart goes out to you both.””””

Not really in distress. I’ve changed my strategy in dealing with this. We actually seem to be happier without the pressure of having sex and “getting it right”.

“”””ejaculatory incompetence””””

Yeah, I’m not wild about that description either. I still have all the symptoms of a male with a normal testosterone level. The only time that there is a problem like this is between my wife and I during sex. Otherwise all my body functions as normal which indicates that this is strictly a psychological thing with me having sex with my wife. Not that I intend to do this but if I were free to have another partner where I didn’t have a mental block with that woman, I’m positive that I would not have a problem even if that partner was post menopausal like my wife. I would not expect that new partner to have a spontaneous reaction of a 40 year old woman. I know that doesn’t sound fair to my wife. This is why I describe this situation as a sexual reconnection/life timing issue. The affair happened at a really bad time (not that there is a good time for an affair) in our lives.

“”””Would sex therapy with a clinical psychologist be an option for you?””””

I don’t know. It seems that I just need to let my heart catch up with my mind no matter how long that takes. I think that I have put too much enfaces on the sexual reconnection and have put too much pressure on both of us.

Also I’m trying to look at it from my wife’s point of view as a woman although she has not complained (probably because she doesn’t feel she has a right to complain since she feels responsible). How ridiculous is it for me to expect my wife to have a spontaneous reaction when there is sooooo much pressure to have a spontaneous reaction? That’s crazy. I wouldn’t expect that of a new partner at the same biological age. In fact, I’d bet most women would not be able to have a "spontaneous reaction" with this amount of pressure no matter what age. A forced spontaneous reaction sounds like a contradiction.

MT, thanks again for your understanding.

H2C

H2C

"In fact, I’d bet most women would not be able to have a "spontaneous reaction" with this amount of pressure no matter what age. A forced spontaneous reaction sounds like a contradiction."

I think your absolutely right about that. I've noticed a few times myself and there haven't ever been any real issues or problems in my sex life that when your partner is trying "too" hard to give you pleasure that sometimes "that alone" will keep you from having that release. I think sometimes if you agree ahead of time that an "O" isn't the goal and that simply enjoying yourselves is, that sometimes it just comes much more naturally.

Charlie