Carol, what happened from the time of the concert and following with the hot tub, and etc, to today?
<<I dont want to be angry anymore, and I dont want to hurt anymore, but more than anything else, I DONT WANT TO BE LONELY ANYMORE!>> Carol, it's been my experience that being lonely in a relationship is much worse than being alone. Being alone is fine -- being actively denied or ignored is painful.... I remember those awful feelings. Feelings isn't even a strong enough word -- it's an awful, hellish experience.
What I did for quite a while (in the marriage and during the separation) was "work on myself" -- and yet.....my unconfessed (and mostly unrealized) mode was "look, I lost 20 pounds....now will you love me?" "I made your favorite meal....now will you talk to me?" "I cleaned the house and I have tried especially hard to answer you kindly and I got my hair done and shaved my legs and bought hip jeans and.... and.....now.... am I worthy of your attention?"
I had to come to the place where I had to realize that my H (at the time) may never change no matter WHAT I do. What I realized was that for years I was desparately trying to put deposits in my H's "love bank" but I didn't see the big hole in his soul that only God can fill. I thought my love could fix it but it couldn't. I nearly died trying to "make it all better" in my marriage. That was my fault -- my weakness -- wanting to "make it all better" -- to fix what I hadn't broken because rejection and failure were too too painful for me to deal with for a lonnnnnng time. But without my husband taking an active role with God (or his higher power, etc.) to deal with his own issues -- privately and away from me -- our marriage was not going to be fixed.
I know you're trying like hell and I know how painful it can be. I wish I could tell you that your H will wake up and be the husband that he should. But either way, whether your married or single, "in love" or not, you are a worthy, important person with particular talents and purpose. You are worthy just as you are -- you needn't prove that to anyone.
Jean
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Nov 23, 2005 11:04 AM This message has been edited by Jean150 on Nov 23, 2005 11:01 AM
Carol...I feel like you are talking to me. I have the exact same feelings that you have. I am divorced and STILL hanging on to the former spouse. I am living in a shoe and I know it. Our youngest son is home from college (we live in TN and he attends college in Providence RI....pretty good distance). My FS was so excited about him coming home...he arranged to take 6 days off from work. I wasn't sure how he would attempt to see our son....he (FS) lives about 1 hour away in a cabin that we built for family fun..ha ha. Anyway, he took yesterday off (our son was to arrive home about 7pm). He phoned me and was drunk as a skunk at 11:00am. He said he was so sad...of course when I ask why, he changes the subject. Anyway, he was supposed to plan the Thanksgiving celebration with the boys (we have two sone...one who just cam home from college 18...and another son 25 who attends medical school in our town). Sooo...then FS says that he doesn't really know what he is going to do for Thanksgiving, as he promised a former employee who had a stroke and lives in a nursing home...that he would pick her up and celebrate Thanksgiving with her too. Long story short....now I am responsible for the entire Thanksgiving dinner....the FS stayed drunk all day yesterday....phoned me a couple of time and let me know that he was still alive and that he wanted me to phone him when our son got home. Can you imagine? A 57 year old HEALTH PROFESSIONAL (allegedly educated...yada..yada...) being drunk knowing that his youngest son who is coming home for the first time since he went away for college...and not wanting to be near to greet him? See Carol.....I am as pathetic as you are (not really pathetic...but not living in the real world or divorce/recovery..whatever). Wow. It is almost cleansing to know that there is someone else out there as "stuck" as I am. I hope this was not offensive to you. I am an educated, emotionally "healthy" female...unfortunately there are NO men out there who would die to be with me...I am a bit older...all of the pool of eligible males are with the 35 year old office workers...anyway, I hope you find the peace and balance you are seeking....I am plodding along day by day...actually second by second. I hope for you what I hope so much for myself....to get beyond this pain and frustration to a better place where I can need only ME and appreciate who I am and what I can to for myself and others. Hava a happy holiday...is that possible?
Why define your reality and future, Sage and Carol, as "with someone"?
Loneliness isn't from the lack of a relationship. It's from a lack of feeling comfortable in your own skin or in your own life.
In other words, you can be alone and not be lonely.
Carol, especially: I realized many of my feelings of anger were related to an emptiness I felt. I "should" have been happier in a relationship because someone was "there". Only that someone was "there" physically BUT NOT EMOTIONALLY. Sound familiar? It took separation and divorce for me to fully realize that much of my emotional pain was from my own expectation of what "SHOULD" be happening in my marriage.
I no longer feel that pain acutely. No one is bound to a promise to "be there for me" so I don't expect it any more. And so I don't feel lonely.
<<Carol, what happened from the time of the concert and following with the hot tub, and etc, to today? >>
Jean,
Thank you for your kind words and sympathetic response to my post. I dont know what happened. There are a couple of things that have been on my mind and I just realized so many things at once...like a flood! It was just overwhelmingly painful.
<< Carol, it's been my experience that being lonely in a relationship is much worse than being alone. Being alone is fine -- being actively denied or ignored is painful.... I remember those awful feelings. Feelings isn't even a strong enough word -- it's an awful, hellish experience.>>
That is part of it for sure Jean. If I were alone that would be one thing but I have a husband and I shouldnt feel this way. But he is hardly ever here, and even when he is here physically he is not here emotionally...and he ignores me and wont talk to me about anything...I ask questions and he does not respond. I know he hears me. It is cruel to not answer people when they talk to you...it is emotional abuse! It is also emotional abuse to withold affection, which he does. I am tired of being abused and manipulated. I realize that I let him do this to me. I was angry at him and angry at myself. I am the only one who can stop him but here I sit, doing nothing about it. What's wrong with me?
<< But without my husband taking an active role with God (or his higher power, etc.) to deal with his own issues -- privately and away from me -- our marriage was not going to be fixed. >>
Yep, I figured that one out awhile ago...I thought he may come around one day...but it isnt going to happen and I guess I just realized that.
I agree wholeheartedly with Chris. You can be lonely in or out of a marriage. Just because you are alone, doesn't mean you are lonely. Sure it is difficult at first, but it gets easier and you can see improvement each day.
Carol and Sage
Both of you are similar in that you have enabled your husbands so that there actions are acceptable. Carol you are making progress lately...keep up the good work and keep focusing on you!!! YOU are worth much more Carol and yes maybe in the future you could have the loving relationship you deserve from somebody but not until you find out what makes you happy and learn to draw boundaries at unacceptable behaviours. People will treat you how you allow them to treat you.
Sage..........if your husband wants to see his children tell him to sober up, grow up and make his own damn dinner for them to enjoy on Thanksgiving!! Then take yourself and kids out for a nice fancy dinner where somebody else is cooking the turkey and mashing your potatoes.
Sage a question - does the son that is in med school see that his father has a problem with alcohol? If so could he sit and have a talk with dad about the drinking and maybe get him some help.
I am in a spunky mood today and I am tired of you both being used and abused by these (so called) men!!!!!
<< See Carol.....I am as pathetic as you are (not really pathetic...but not living in the real world or divorce/recovery..whatever). Wow. It is almost cleansing to know that there is someone else out there as "stuck" as I am. I hope this was not offensive to you. >>
No Sage, you did not offend me. And I also dont think we're pathetic, lol. I am just one of those people that have a really hard time giving up. I try to look at something from every angle possible and attack it from all sides. And this one has me "stuck" as you say. It is nice to know we are are not alone ;O)
Just got done reading your latest posts. Wish I could say something to make you feel better.I know what you mean about not having the strenght to be alone. I was that way with my first H & he was a horrible person. Finally one day he went "fishing" with my car & all my money. I was 8 months pregnant & scared to death. Plus I also had an 18 month old. I finally got a job & even went to college for awhile. Got almost all A's ! My point is that we can do much more than what we think we can. I am lucky with my current H. He is trying hard BUT I'm not sure if it's enough to make me want to stay. I can't picture my marriage being a s good as it was. Everything seems ruined so I often think "why bother". Plus I can't believe that he did that to me. He doesn't deserve to be with me & the kids.So, at this point I haven't decided what to do. One minute I want to stay & the next minute I want to go.I keep thinking that there must be some guy out there who would never do this to me.I thought my H was that guy but I sure found out I was wrong.Anyway, I hope your Thanksgiving turns out to be nice. I have to get back to getting things ready. Just finished steam cleaning the carpet. Now I have to clean house & make a cheesecake(that's what my 16 yr. old wants). Ugh, it's 6:28 & I haven't even made tonite's dinner yet! I will check in tomorrow in case you need to talk. Hey carol, I would like to have your address if you feel comfortable with that. I'd like to send you a card now & then . My e-mail address is: Barbarapatten@yahoo.com ; if you decide to give me your address. If you don't want to I will certainly understand. Take care!!!
Well, Carol, I just see so much of my story in what you're going thru. And this is not to say that you'll end up being divorced like I am. Just that pursuing/avoidance stuff going on, the workaholism, the "silent treatment" stuff, etc., etc., it's all familiar to me. And these things were in place before we got married. Ugh. His infidelity was just a sympton of deeper issues that he refused to address.
<<...and he ignores me and wont talk to me about anything...I ask questions and he does not respond. I know he hears me.>. yep.
<<It is also emotional abuse to withold affection, which he does.>> yep.
<<But he is hardly ever here, and even when he is here physically he is not here emotionally>> yep. I certainly can relate. Here's one of several experiences -- When my midwife told me to go to the emergency room at 10 p.m. one night with my baby, I walked thru my H's line of vision several times as I packed a bag for me and my infant daughter, and as I told him that I was going to the ER per the midwife's instructions. He had heard me on the phone with the midwife, and then he heard me on the phone with my brother, whom I had called for support. He was only about 6 feet away in the same room with me. Well, without looking at me, he said "okay" and continued watching TV. I drove myself and our daughter to the ER. Did he know which ER? No. The next afternoon, my birthday, I had to call him to come pick me up, as we had been transferred by ambulance to another hospital. Did he remember my birthday? No. No card, no gift, no flowers, of course no kiss. He was irritated that he had to come pick me up. He didn't seem to care why I came home with a little cake [that the wonderful nurses in the hospital gave me after seeing it was my b'day from my charts], but he did ask me to serve him a piece of it.)
<<I am the only one who can stop him but here I sit, doing nothing about it. >> Huh? Carol, you can't stop him from doing and feeling what he wants to. You cannot make your husband do anything. You cannot stop him from doing anything, either, particularly passive things -- like being apathetic, ignoring you, withholding affection, being emotionally absent from the marriage.
You cannot change anyone but yourself. You can only choose your actions and your responses to others' actions. You cannot choose your husband's response, no matter how good ... or bad ... you've been. Influence, perhaps, but I don't think one should have to work so hard on influencing, because life is too short for that kind of struggle.....
Letting go is a process -- a learning process for sure. It takes time.
Hey Kid...the medical school son does not "talk" to his father about such things. Those are conversations that are "off limits" according to father. The son certainly realizes the problem, but has not really seen his dad in that mode....father doesn't see the children much at all...remember, he is raising HER two children and doesn't seem to have enough time for both families. Anyway, he doesn't want the help. We all "tiptoe" around the subject, but he is never drunk IN FRONT of the children...only one time in front of the youngest. Anyway, it is a moot point, he doesn't want the help. I honestly think that he couldn't bear to visit what he has done and how hurtful it has been to all of us. You are right, I should ask him not to come...I can't even remember where he was last year...not at our home, probably at the OW's home....the OW's father is YOUNGER than my FS...ahahahahhahahahahahahah. This is going to be a very upsetting day for me tomorrow but I will remain balanced because of the children and how meaningful the Thanksgiving meal is to the two of them.....I feel sorry for them that I was such a bad choice of a father....but then, he was not like that ehen.....how sad for them. If they want a decent relationship with him they are going to have to initiate it and nurture it....he is NOT capable of doing that....it is obvious. I don't get it.....I don't understand how any parent could treat their own children as he does....it is incomprehensible to me....have a GREAT holiday with your family (that's a joke). I invited you to Tennessee but you didn't reapons.....iit's not too late, we will eat about 5:30. Come on down.
I know I cant change him. I am not trying to. When I said that I am the only one who can stop him, I meant by standing up for myself and not letting him walk all over me. He is a stubborn Italian man and there is no changing anything about him!
I cant believe your H was that cruel, not to take you to the hospital or remember your birthday. OUCH! I am so sorry.
I agree with Chris too. It is harder to be with someone who is not there EMOTIONALLY than it is to be by yourself. It's really draining and it hurts a lot. Yep, I am still taking care of myself and still moving forward...I am on a healing path and I will get there one day, with or without my H.
I want you to print that out and keep it someplace special to look at when you are feeling frustrated, unhappy, angry, pissed off, hurt.........etc YOU sound so strong in that message Carol AND if I haven't said it lately, I am extremely proud of you! I know how hard this is when you are one of those people that like to analyze things to death like me
Would it be too much to suggest you cut it out and post it on the fridge at home ?
<<I am on a healing path and I will get there one day, with or without my H.>> Good for you.
I hated to see that you were so down so soon after the night of the concert. But this is the place to come when you're down!
<<When I said that I am the only one who can stop him, I meant by standing up for myself and not letting him walk all over me.>> Okay. Sometimes I read quickly and yet too literally -- and I guess I may miss some of your meaning.
Are you still going to Italy and Switzerland? I've been there too, but it's been a long time. Geneva was very beautiful, and very ritzy! And of course Italy was wonderful..... But I can't see myself taking any more trips like that until my kids are older and I've been making consistent $$ for quite a while.
Now, Carol, if by chance your H doesn't go -- are you going to go anyway? Please tell me that you will.
Kid beat me to it. Keep that last post of yours in front of you for a long time. It doesn't matter where you go as a person as long as it's to a place of your own choosing; literally or figuratively "waiting around" for an emotionally-absent spouse is the epitome of "stuck".
I guarantee you will find happiness "there", whether it's a physical, metaphysical, or emotional "place" that you go. It may be in your marriage, or it may not...only you can know what's best for you and what real choices you have.
That sounds so selfish. But after learning the hard way that no one can love you if you don't love and take care of yourself first...it's reality.
Thank you all for your support. It means a lot to me.
Thanksgiving was not bad. H seemed to be in a good mood and take the day in stride. Normally he seems anxious instead of trying to relax. We went to his aunts house for dinner and then to another aunts house for a birthday party & dessert. He even brought a book along to read. But when I asked him why he never read the book that I gave him...he clammed up, wouldnt even look at me. He just acted like I didnt say anything and went on with the day. Then we went home and watched a movie with the kids and went to bed.
Unfortunately just before we were about to go to bed his brother called. He decided to seperate from his wife who had been having an affair. I had posted about him and his wife once before. He says she was cheating again and refuses to stop so he left. He said last time she cheated he wanted a divorce but she said she wanted to work it out. They have been going to counseling but she has been lying the whole time. He says this time he doesnt think they will get back together because he doesnt feel she is going to change. But I know he loves her and if she asked he'd be back in a heart-beat.
Anyway, I had a couple of triggers but nothing so bad that I lost it. I am getting better at that too
Ya know...it gets to the point when the questions stop being about why a WS isn't doing this or that...and becomes why we put up with something less than what we know we deserve or expect.
Only we can answer that. Just as we want a WS to look inside, as BS we have to do that too. In some kind of morbid way a WS can become a safety net and we feel safe being the "victim". It feels safe because its consistant.
We can blame a WS for putting us there but we have to blame ourselves for staying there(over an long extended period of time). You sound to me you are starting to realize that. . Your H(from your posts) seems to me he just is who he is, its up to you to decide whether that is good enough or not.
Regards,
Tex
P.S. If you are footing the bill we will all gladly go to Switzerland and Itaty with you.
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Nov 25, 2005 6:01 PM
And YES, I am going to Switzerland and Italy with or without him, lol. My H has been to Amsterdam and well, it is not something I like to talk about...that is where he had his uhm, bachelor party.
Tex, I have been looking inside of myself and saying "why am I letting him treat me this way, stand up for yourself". And that is what I am doing. Tonight he walked me to the car and he got in to say goodbye because it was so cold. So I asked him again why he didnt read the book and I make him answer (part of sticking up for myself)...he finally says "because I didnt want to". So I said why didnt you want to...because it was too painful? And he said yes. Well, at least he finally answered. I told him it was painful for me to read it. And then we had a long talk...or should I say I talked he listened. I finally ask him how he feels about us, where we are now in our relationship and he says OK. I pour my heart out and I get "ok" that's it! Then I tell him he needs to figure out why he did what he did, he needs to look inside of himself and figure it out. And then I ask him if he is commited to this realtionship and he says yes. I tell him I need him to prove it. He just nods his head. I ask do you love me and he says yes, I love you. Then lets figure this out and get on with our life. We need to communicate more...I dont know how you feel unless you tell me. I said are you even sorry for what you did, and he says "yes, but I cant take it back, and Im sorry I hurt you". WHAT A SHOCK! That is the most I have been able to get out of him in the past 12 months!!!
How's it going? Sounds like you're doing better. I made it thru Thanksgiving. Actually I was mad about the A but I made it thru dinner being nice. Then I was feeling grumpy & moody so I just went to bed at 7 pm. I left the kids & H downstairs watching a movie. When H came to bed about 10pm, I told him that I didn't know if I wanted to stay together anymore. I woke up this am in the same mood. We took the kids bowling but I just watched.Then before they were done, I walked over to H & informed him that I was walking to the grocery store to buy myself some flowers & he could pick me up there when they were done bowling. So, I walked the 10 minutes to the grocery store & bought myself a $3.49 bunch of flowers!! Then I went next door to Baskin Robbins & bought myself an ice cream cone.As I told H before I left the bowling alley,"your excuse for not buying me flowers(being broke) doesn't fly because you had money to stop at starbucks & buy a coffee(empty cup in truck) & you always have money for chew". Pissed me off & I bought my own damn flowers(again). He left for his job at the coast this evening & before he left I told him I didn't know if I wanted to stay with him or not. I told him that there are guys out there that don't believe in cheating & maybe one of them would treat me right.I know he's trying but no matter how hard he tries it won't make up for the fact that he had the A & lied to me alot. Sometimes I think it would be better just to tell him to get out.I don't think I'm a nice enough person to get over the A.There's no damn excuse for having an A.
I, like everyone else who's responded to your message, have been betrayed and I feel like I am just letting him do it. We have only been married for 3 months, but have been together 4 years. We have a daughter together and I am 4 months pregnant. I found out about his "affair" 6 weeks before our wedding and it happened during our 2-week "split" last August.
Even when I found out he didn't show remorse. We have tried counseling and he still has yet to do anything. I think to myself, "Why do you let him do this?" and I feel like I am letting him get away with making me feel this way. But, it's not like I am letting him do this to me and get away with it, I guess to a point, but he is choosing to do this to me. He is choosing to still lie to me and make broken promises to me.
He says that I make him miserable therefore, he doesn't even have any energy to try to fix things.
I tell him that the only reason he is miserable is because he has done nothing to help anyone but himself and that I am miserable and can not be happy with him without some help from him.
Yet I get nothing. And we're having a child together. How do I find enough strength to leave this selfish SOB and never look back. I'm afraid to be a single mother of two and I'm kind-of afraid of being happy I guess. I have been so unhappy with him that I don't know any other way of living.
I have tried EVERYTHING and I feel he has tried nothing to salvage what he broke. How am I suppossed to know when enough is enough?
Carol, after I read your post it reminded me that one of the hardest things for me to learn to do with my ex-wife was to ask a question and WAIT for an answer without supplying one.
Offering an answer she could agree or disagree with didn't require her to get there herself...it allowed her to rely on me to do all the emotional work for her, which allowed her to put off looking inside for her own answers.
It's still hard for me not to fill silence, but I'm learning.
In my job I have to do alot of interviewing of people to gather details...........which later may be used against them haha!
Anyway, I learned to ask questions and then wait for responses. I noticed that if you helped them that you somtimes got completely different stories than if you asked and waited.
It is hard to do with your spouse, I remember always trying to fill in the blanks with answers because he didn't have the ability to tell me what he was feeling or wanting to say. I guess that is something I need to work on.
It is impossible to do with my spouse because he WONT answer no matter how long I wait. He even did it to the counselor when we were going to MC. But I definately understand what you're saying.
My ex used to sit in marriage counselling with that glazed look as well. Like he wasn't impressed to be there. It was the deer in the headlight look. Very uncomfortable, arms crossed daring the counsellor to ask him anything. Then he would just sit silent.
After several sessions of this the counsellor finally asked to see me alone for a few minutes and basically told me I was wasting my time and money and that he was willing to continue if I wanted, but that he didn't see any use.
My former H was a "good boy" in counseling. While he didn't offer any information willingly (that's an understatement), he used all the right "buzz words" and was charming with our counselor (a man). This was at least our fourth MC for the marriage. All of them arranged by who? Me. The counselor just told me that the H was "emotionally constricted," and that I needed to "give him more time." More time, after 2 years of separation and more philandering, he still needed more time? uh uh. Boy, it took me a long time to wake up, but this counselor didn't help.
Influence, perhaps, but I don't think one should have to work so hard on influencing, because life is too short for that kind of struggle..... 
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