This is not easy for me to write and I have no idea exacly how to say this so I guess I just have to come right out and say it. My H is off his rocker! I mean it quite literally. His behavior is completely unacceptable and unforgiveable.
Yesterday on the way back from Christmas dinner H put all of our lives in danger! He was driving my car, and most of the time I drive. We were all in the car. me, H, and our 3 children. It was raining and there were not many cars on the road, thank God. A car pulls up to us at the light. I dont know if the person in the car somehow offended H or what, but that is no excuse for what happened next. As soon as the light changes my H puts the petal to the metal. I feel my heart go into my stomach and I look over at the speedometer and my H is doing somehwere between 70 and 80 and the light ahead is turning yellow and there is a car waiting for the green on the other side. I tell H to stop! He ignores me and continues through the RED light! Thank God the other car had not turned on the green light and must have saw us coming. I was never so scared in all my life and the kids were freaking out. I dont think they will ever get in the car agin with their father, nor will I let them. We all could have died and he didnt care! He didnt even say a word!!!! I have no idea why he was trying to out run the other car or what was going on. I try to calm the kids down. So to keep them calm I did not say anything to H. Then after that he starts riding another guys bumper. The guy turns onto the same road as we need to go down and then the guy steps on his breaks to get H off his bumper. H backs off for a second and then I see him downshift and I know what he is going to do...he was going to pass him illegally, he has done this with us in the car before (but he has never run a light like that). There was a car coming the other direction and I told H dont do it, just dont do it! He just looks at me like he wants to strangle me for stopping him. He drives normally the rest of the way home, but at that point we were only about 2 miles away. I was so upset that I can in the house and went upstairs to my room. I sat there and cried for about 15 minutes and tried to figure out what to do or say. I did not want to ruin Christmas for the kids so I decide to keep my mouth shut. The kids were still awake when we went to bed and this morning when H left for work. I have not had a chance to confront him and I will not confront him when the kids are around.
Then to top it off, H broke a boundary. When I came downstairs to see where H was after we got home I asked the kids where dad went. They said they didnt know. I looked around for him and I found him smoking pot on the front porch acting like nothing had just happened and acting like he was doing nothing wrong. Was that what that racing crap was all about...did he just risk our lives so he could get home sooner to smoke his pot, to break a boundary? Then later he goes inside falls asleep on the couch and then goes up to our room and smokes some more. He broke both of the rules, not in the house (or around the house) and not around the kids. I wanted to kick him out and say it was over right then and there.
I have decided that I need to talk to the counselor and his parents ASAP. I need to know what is the best way to approach this and want the counselors input first. I want to know if I should tell him to leave and then get the kids in for counseling or if they should go to counseling first so he can explain the sitution to them or if I should explain it to them. I am so mixed up right now and I need help! I know the right thing to do is to ask him to leave, but how or when? I am so afraid. I am afraid of many things...like can I do this, am I strong enough right now...how will the kids take it...will they be able to deal with this, and how will H react? Given his recent behavior I am afraid he will be really mean and angry and things might not end very well. If I stay now I am risking our childrens lives and my own. I cannot stay...I cannot stay...I cannot stay! Lord give me the strength to walk away from this man! This man is not my H...he is not the man I married. I cannot even think straight right now.
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 7, 2007 2:06 PM
Hi Carol! I'm so sorry to hear about your christmas. You must have been scared to death! I think that you're right, you do need to talk to the councilor. I'm sure you'll get some good ideas on how to handle things. I'm afraid I'm not any help! I just wanted to pop in & let you know how sorry I am. I think you're right though,you & H can't work things out at this point. At least not until he realizes that he has a big problem & needs help.Hopefully, someday he will realize that but it's not your job to sit around & wait for that day. Especially since it may never come. Take care Carol! We're here for you!!!
I read your post a few times trying to get a feeling of what your H might be thinking. All I could come up with is what difference does it make? He made a choice to put you and your kids in danger. Only you can decide if that's a dealbreaker or not.
It almost reads as if he's pushing you to make a choice...testing you so to speak especially with the pot smoking in the house. Its going to be his way or no way.
Take a deep breath and decide what you what to do now.
I think when/if the decision is made to tell the children it needs to come from you, not a C. They need to hear from you whatever happens its going to be alright. If you can't help them or if they are striking out in very destructive ways then take them to a C. You want things to appear as normal as possible for them. "Dad and I aren't getting along at the moment but we both love you very much."
You need to come right out and ask him if he wants this marriage or not and under what terms. Then decide whether you can live with it or not.
I have partially explained things to my oldest son who is 15. I told him that his father scared me yesterday and that his father's behavior was unacceptable, that is not the way adults should behave, that his father was worng to put our lives in danger yesterday. He said he understood. He hugged me and told me he loved me, and then I broke down and cried like a baby. Since when does the child have to comfort the parent? He shouldnt have to do that...it broke my heart.
For the (driving) record, Carol, my X did the exact same thing on several occasions. I eventually quit getting in his car.
I would say, "Stop and let us out" but he wouldn't. We were trapped inside his car inside his anger....and yes it can kill.
Substitute alcohol for pot in my case. Same deal. His OW is apparently a major pot head, according to the X. She also exhibits the tell-tail signs of a long-term substance abuser. He needed to find himself an enabler after I stopped doing it, and succeeded with that very well.
Both pot and alcohol are addictions when used daily year after year after year. The result seems to be an emotionally stunted adult, or a greying teenager. Sounds like you've got one.
What you just experienced is (more) abusive behavior. You've had to deal with adultery, addiction, and terrible boundaries.
You can not control him, but you can refuse to set foot in his car. You are free to establish your own boundaries and those for your children. The police can be involved in this too if necessary.
Also for the record, my former H did similar "road rage" things, too, on several occasions. Substitute pot for porn and workaholism....and whatever else he may have been into. Also a greying teenager, where everything is about "him."
Driving like a maniac with you in the car and scaring the hell out of you is a perfect way to exhibit his "control" you.
Tex says <<You need to come right out and ask him if he wants this marriage or not and under what terms.>> If I remember correctly, I think she's already done that. I think it's just time that she answer that question for herself. Carol, I think that, in a sense, he is holding you hostage to his terms. Scaring you and the children with his dangerous driving? Purposely reducing you tears on Christmas Day? Not acceptable, let alone the pot, et cetera. Maybe he's taking these extremes to force your hand -- to make you initiate a separation or divorce and look like the "bad guy" I think that was my former H's motive.
Carol, you've lived through this turmoil for quite a while. You are stronger than you think.
"You can not control him, but you can refuse to set foot in his car. You are free to establish your own boundaries and those for your children. The police can be involved in this too if necessary."
While Carol can refuse to set foot in his car, I'm willing to bet with an irrational person like her H on pot, her children may not have the ability to refuse him if he decides to take them somewhere. I am wondering if they will be in danger if he wants them to drive with him and they do refuse him? What happens then? Does he get pissed and take his addiction out on them? That is very scary Carol. I can't predict what will happen and maybe I'm wrong but I do know that addiction can take someone over and it will seem like the "twilight zone" sometimes.
Please get help Carol, you can't do anything to help him unless he wants it and he clearly does not. I think you said his parents are supportive of you, but beware that they likely also want their son to be with his family or they may think that you are good for him without thinking about the repercussions on the family.
Have you thought that since he is totally numbed by dope his recent behaviors may be due to an effort to FEEL?? Putting his life and his family's life on the edge may have given him the adrenaline rush he is so desperatly looking for??
I had tears streaming down my cheeks as I read your story. I am so, so sorry for what you are going through.
It's been about 30 years since I've played chess and didn't really play it much back then either so I don't remember a lot, however, this reminded me of it for some reason. Sounds like you are the pawn he keeps pushing around the board and he just put you in check. He seems to be forcing you to make the next move and make it checkmate.
As awful and scary as it must seem to let go, can you really keep going on like this? You said yourself he is not the man you married. It doesn't sound as if he is willing or able (because of the drugs maybe) to become that man again. It's a heartwrenching decision and I feel for you.
As for your son. You should feel so proud to have raised a son so caring and nurturing and loving. At 15 he understands what's going on and surely needed to comfort you as much as you needed the comforting. It's the one thing that he can do in this whole mess so please let him.
You're right about not being able to control this with the children. My son sometimes complains about his dad's driving. I tell him that if and when it happens, demand to be let out, call me, and we'll take it from there. So far he hasn't.
Also, our divorce decree states that no one caring for our son can be 'impaired' while doing so. No drinking. The X does it anyway but more discreetly than before. I could cause waves but the boy is seldom with him, maybe one or two nights a week at best. I figure at least alcohol is mentioned in the decree, that rule is written, and the X knows it.
If an incident happened and I were to call the X on it, you can bet the farm on the fact that he'd respond, "What? I did not do that" or "It wasn't THAT bad" or "Are you still trying to CONTROL me?".
The faster he could turn the issue of his angry reckless driving with our son in car on me would be the ultimate goal.
That's what dealing with an addict is about.
So, I continually try to educate my son on this without slamming his father. It's always tricky business.
I hope the OW is enjoying the occasional bouts of aggresive tailgaiting and 80-90 mile an hour shots down the freeway at night after a bottle of wine or two.
My sister's ex was an alcoholic as well. One time when her little girl was 2, he took her out on his sailboat drunk without a life jacket. Can't remember how she found out but when her daughter was 3, she told him that if he would sign full custody (no visitation) over to her that she would never make him pay child support. It worked, he hasn't seen her since and her new hubby who she married a year later adopted her daughter and is a great dad. I wouldn't suggest doing what she did if you need the money but she was lucky to get him out of her daughter's life for safety reasons. Her ex has been married 4 times since and she was his second marriage. Wonder why eh?
She never went after child support. Raised me alone and kept my alcoholic father away. She allowed him into our lives briefly after he went through intensive treatment, but when he relapsed it was off again.
I really never had a father and there is a feeling of loss about that, but at least I understand the advantage of it in my case.
I do see my H's behavior getting worse and worse. I went so far as to seek advice with an online psychologist, since I cannot get H to go see anyone. They did a basic peronsality evaluation based on what I said and made sure to let me know that it is not 100% accurate because he was not evaluated in person and the answers were mine as I see them, not his. So I took it for what it was worth. They suggested I get him in for a complete physical and mental evaluation with a qualified professional. I told him that he would not go. They also sent me all kinds of disclaimers of course, because they have to. The following is basically what they wrote (I edited it somewhat):
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Your husband has an A type personality and exhibits signs of a narsisstic personality disorder. He needs to be evaluated by a professional in order for an accuarte diagnosis to be made.
With this type of personality disorder the person is typically unable to feel empathy, they are emotionally unavailable, they are compulsive liars, they feel entitled to things, they treat people as objects and/or as a means to further themselves or as an extension of themselves. They present to others a grandious opinion of themselves, which is usually caused by self delusion in order to feel better about themsleves by bragging about their achivements, when what they truly feel deep down inside and are repressing is unworthiness, low self esteem, and almost always depression. They are envious of others and/or feel others are envious of them. They have a strong need to maintain a level of legitimacy in the real world by keeping a family, and by having a prestigious career, many are political, and are generally charismatic and appear confident and caring. But it is just a facade. They have a need to be in control of all things around them and related to them. In other words, the world revolves around them. They view themselves as better than others. Workaholism, sexual promiscuity, and a need for excitement (adrenaline rush) are typical characteristics of the disorder. The added substance abuse is mearly an attempt to feel or not feel emotions. They need some sort of high in order to feel good about themselves and numb their underlying pain. As the disorder progresses so does the depression and in turn so does the substance abuse and the need for a bigger and better high in order to feel anything at all. They are emotionally disconnected from those they love, and are practically incapable of truly feeling any emotions whatsoever. Thus, they feel they have nothing to lose by their behavior and lack of feelings. They are only in things (life, work, relationships, and so on) for what they can do for them, for the appearance of things and how it reflects on them, as long as the reflection is good and positive. They are self centered and egotistical. They will not admit to wrongdoing or to failure, and any illness is seen as being weak. They do not care who they hurt, including their families and children because they feel nothing or very little for them. Long term relationships are impossible for them to maintain. People with NPD are in a word unreachable.
There is no way to know how much of the symptons you described could be NPA or a direct result of the head trauma you described. It is also possible for it to be a combination of the two. In your husbands case a complete medical and mental evaluation is stronly advised.
There is help for the individual who seeks help whether it is mental illness due to the head trauma or mental illness due to NPA. Both present with similar symptons. A person with NPD is totally unaware of their condition and do not understand why they are this way, and are in complete denial about their addictions as being unhealthy. They see them as good, and they see them as a way of being in control of their lives, when in fact the are not. They are controlled by the disorder and by their addictions. If head trauma is diagnosed it can be treated effectively. NPD can be treated with drugs in most cases as well, at least to some degree. In most cases the disorder cannot be 100% controlled, meaning that even with the help of medical and mental health professionals and drugs the individual will still exhibit some symptons of the disorder, just not as severely. For the individual who does not eventually seek help in either case (head trauma or NPD) their lives will continue in this pattern and they may even develope more severe symptons, inlcuding more severe forms of mental, emotional, and possibly physical abuse of others, and may eventually even become a threat to themselves. Mental illness is not something that someone can just snap out of, they need professional help.
It is to the best interest of those who are involved with a person with NPD who does not seek help for their disorder to seek counseling in order to escape the relationship if they are unable to leave on their own. It is also adviseable for those who stay in the relationship during treatment and/or beyond to also seek counseling in order to deal with staying and maintaining the relationship if desired and with understanding of the disorder and illness (symptons, side effects of treatment, what to expect, what not to expect, on going evaluation of the individual, and so forth). This is a long and on-going process, possibly over the life time of the individual if necessary. It is emotionally and physically draining for all involved and and there are not gurantees the individual will get any better. And there is the possibility of relapse, as with many mental illnesses.
The information presented here is by no means an attempt to scare you or discourage you, and may not even apply to your husbands case. We are simply presenting the facts as typical to the mental illnesses of this nature as you described them to us, and its possibilities by giving you as much information as we can without an actual diagnosis, in order for you to make an informed decision to seek professional help. Again, we cannot stress stronly enough that the individual needs to go for a complete physical and mental evaluation so that an accurate diagnosis can be made and a plan for treatment is formed, and possibly implemented.
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This message has been edited by pizzalady on Dec 27, 2005 2:00 PM
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 27, 2005 11:24 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 27, 2005 2:34 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 27, 2005 2:25 PM
He has a drug problem. Right now everything else is mute until that is taken care of.
He took it to a new level the other night. You are in a difficult position...your marriage as is or the safety of your children. What do you do...protect your kids from their parent?
This is an honest question because I don't have kids. I hear parents say they stay for the kids. When do you chose to leave for them?
Edited: typos
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 27, 2005 3:19 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 27, 2005 3:15 PM
In my book, NPD people are the scariest people on the planet. Plus they can not be cured. That's the general rule. I wasn't married to a full-blown one but I've had some encounters with a small few during the course of my life. Each time was a royal nightmare that unfolded in an insidious manner.
You don't even know you're involved with one (being fed off of) until they've got your life turning upside down and inside out. I have often wished that NPD people had a red light bulb on their heads so you would have a chance to RUN! They are so unbelievably dangerous.
Part of letting go Carol is realizing that you can't do for others. He may have injured himself in the car accident or he may have NPD, but he also has a drug problem and refuses help. If he wants help then he needs to find it himself. Don't waste precious energy trying to find ways to fix him....accept that he is the way he is and isn't going to change anytime soon. Then make a decision about what you need to do for the safety and security of your children.
You have made such progress and I am very proud of you btw!! We all know how hard it is to let go......sometimes it just takes reading in print what you are thinking in your head and having somebody else tell you the same things you already intuitively know.
I agree...no matter what the diagnosis is, head trauma, NPD or whatever, he is addicted to drugs and has an addictive personality. Even if he is cured of his current addiction(s) chances are he will replace it with another. I was also told by the psychology site that there is no cure, only treatment for NPD. Illness cause by head trauma on the other hand can possibly be cured. They also said that given his state of mind and current behavior he is likely to have another affair because he is feeling so low and using more and more drugs to get high. He is in the later stages of addiction and cross addictions.
So lets say best case scenario is that it is an illness caused by head trauma, we still have the addictive personality which isnt going to change either. So I will always end up in the same place with him no matter how you look at it. And I know I cant fix him or make him get help. I know that I am powerless. It is so hard to accept that you cannot help some one you love.
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Tex,
I agree with you as well. When he put our kids in danger, I mean physical danger my mothering instincts went through the roof. I felt just like what you were saying...I was trying to stay for them, now it's time to think about leaving for them. It is not safe here. I know many will think I am overreacting, like my in-laws or other family members, but you guys know exactly what Im talking about. He is out of control.
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A couple of people have said that maybe my H is doing more than just pot. I have not seen him do any other drugs exceot when he was younger. I think he's tried almost everything at least once! Who knows, maybe he's having acid flashbacks, lol. It could be the combination of his personality and the long time drug dependancey, maybe he has lost a lot of brain cells from it, I dont know. But no matter what it is not healthy and it is not normal behavior.
Carol, my younger son was just 14 when my ex-wife and I separated two years ago. He is a normal, well-adjusted kid...even though it was very difficult for him to go through his mother's moving out and his own decision on choosing where to live.
He is loving and kind and thoughtful now, as he was before this.
My bet is your son understands at some level what is going on, and he may even know far more than you think he does even though you've tried to maintain appearances on the surface.
RW...that site was fascinating, thanks for the link. They described my H exactly! It's funny how the site stated that they refuse to take meds and seek help because it is a sign of weakness, my H has said the exact same things. My H was angry at himself after the accident because he got hurt...I have written about that, and there it was on the site, along with so many other behaviors I could give example after example. It even explains why he started using more and more pot after the accident, an attempt to feel better about himself because his illusion of himself was shattered when he got hurt in the accident. He was not invincible and the accident proved that. I have even said that before! Wow!!! Then my H not being reciprocating in our relationship, and how he never gives me credit for having anything to do with the success of the pizzeria, and how he is always boasting to customers how HE made the pizzeria a success, how he always needs attention from the customers and admiration....gosh I could go on and on, and on. It's his way or the highway, no compromising! Oh my gosh, it is all righ there in black and white...my whole relationship with my H and how it has progressed to this stage. It is astounding!
My sister-in-law exhibits many of the same traits they describe as well, and so does my father-in-law. It's pretty scary stuff. Now what? What do I do?
Why don't you begin with reading things on this subject. There is so much online now. There is a book called "Malignant Self Love" and some others specifically on NPD I have seen.
Maybe the next step could be individual therapy combining your increased awareness of NPD with a therapist who also knows a great deal about it.
Learn about the combo drug use and family connection you mentioned.
It's a start. You can not control what he does, but you need help for yourself and kids.
There are even articles written on how to take a NPD or Cluster B personality through the court system--if things ever went in that direction for you. That alone can be dicey but there are attorneys with experience who understand.
