Carol, when I looked at the NPD websites several years back, I found that my ex-wife had several of the traits but not enough to be full NPD. (My ex-father-in-law exhibits more of the traits.) One of the big ones was the objectification of people. My ex, plain and simple, uses people to her own ends and seldom reciprocates.
If you disengage, you're no longer part of his "narcissistic supply" and he will eventually seek it elsewhere.
My STBXW had every one(I just checked again)...every damn one. It was then a huge lightbulb went off in my head a long time ago. I can't fix this. I can't changed this. I either chose to live with it or I don't. I chose to let go.
Talk about a wake up call. It was NEVER about me....the bad OR the good.
I too, think there will be a day when you look around, as I have, and realize that your world is perfectly normal and predictable - something it was not for a long time before that. It's a good feeling to have.
Even if H is not NPD and just exhibits exaggerated traits, that alone is bad enough when combined with the addiction and infidelity...it is completely unacceptable behavior and he is not going to do anything to change. I cannot force H to seek help, I know that. I cannot fix him, I know that. The facts are the facts regardless of how or why they came about. He is endangering our lives and he doesnt care...he just doesnt care. He says he has nothing to lose so why does it hurt me so much? Because I have feelings and I have morals and I choose to do the right thing. And as much as it hurts me, the right thing to do is to walk away from him.
I have made a couple of steps in the right direction. The holidays have made things a little harder and much more complicated. They will be over soon though. I pray that I will have the strength and conviction to what I have to do. The next step is to contact a lawyer....the hardest step I think. It brings one a sense that this is real...this is really happening...it all seems so sureal right now. I feel so very sad right now, more for the children than for me. I cannot tell them anything until I ask H to leave. Their world will be shattered along with mine.
Sorry you are having such a hard time.I think your kids will do o.k. I'm not saying that they won't have a tough time but I do think they will make it thru this . I am 45 & my parents were divorced when I was in grade school. My mom was hooked on prescription drugs(started with a back problem) & my dad was awarded full custody. The court said my mom wasn't fit to be a mom. Anyway, I never saw my mom after that.When I was graduating from high school I managed to find her & called her to tell her that I was graduating. That was in 1978 & that was the last contact that I ever had with her.I think I turned out o.k. Carol. I worked from the age of 9, never drank or did drugs & am basically a good person.I am lucky that my dad was willing to raise me by himself. All that & running a mink ranch too. What I do remember about my mom was not good. I remember her passing out from too many drugs & me thinking she had died. I remember her passing out in the church bathroom once & me being totally embarassed. It would not have been a good life if my parents had stayed together.I'm not saying that my situation is anything like what you're dealing with. I guess I'm just trying to say that sometimes it's more harmful for the parents to stay together.I think my dad made the right choice.Just wanted to give you my perspective. Take care!
Carol...I am so sad for you as well. I don't want to belabor the NPD diagnosis, but I think that my former H has elements of that as well. I, like you, don't want anything bad to happen to him...I think that he is able to survive because he has found the OW who "fits" the illness. She is willing to do ANYTHING in order to stay in his good graces. I think she is a terribly dysfunctional person...who wouldn't be, to choose to be with someone who lied, cheated, colluded, says hateful things about his own children and HER children.....
The most shocking thing my former H asked me was, "did you love the children more than you love me?" WHAT??? I could never imagine putting those words together in a sentence like that, once more asking them to the mother of his children in that format. I think it was a real eye-opener for me. When your husband says that he has nothing to lose....why do you want to be there? I know you have answered your own question...you love him and care about him. He doesn't even care about himself and he has already told you that he has nothing to lose by leaving...wish him well. There is great advice information on line for individuals considering divorce. Before you contact an attorney and shell out the retainer...see if some of your questions can be answered by those of us who have been through it or by some good web sites. You are right, you need to get your finances in order so that you have some money to live on.....since most of your assets would be divided, you will get a share/portion of some of them. Do you have interest in the pizza business? Do you all own your own home? There is a way to "barter" assets too...he keeps the business and you get the house...if their value is similar. Do you work outside the home? If not, what are you qualified to do? Are you employable at this time? Could you get a job? I forget the ages of your children...there are so many jobs out there that you can get to work around your children's schedules.
I think you are right in that you need to treat him with "kid" gloves...he is so distraught and caught up in himself that anything he thinks you might be doing to "screw him out of something" might not be met with kindness. During our mediation (I am a divorce mediator and we did not use an attorney...I hired a local attorney AS A MEDIATOR) my husband "turned" on me and I was never so shocked. He accused me of doing things that he knew I would never dream of doing. My greatest asset was that I was able to support myself and my children. I was virtually unaffected by the divorce, financially speaking, as I simply don't spend any money and the children require very little. I don't have access to his income which is over $250K but I don't need it. I think he has suffered greater financial burden that I have because he pays me some money per month...but has to support the OW anad her two young children. At some point during the last 6 months, he said to me, "I have decided not to take on T (OW) and her children because they are costing me too much money." I thought to myself, wow, he certainly is committed to THAT relationship...NOT. Anyway, I don't know what they spend their money on but I think it is costing him a bundle...he is trying to save for retirement and she is trying to establish a lavish lifestyle on a health professional's salary...HEHEHEHEHE. I am thinking that this is going to come back and bite him in the a##...ah. Poor thing.
Anyway, check out the websites first....look at all of your assets...what things are worth...your liabilities...what you owe...car ownership. Try to get an estimate on the business and the house...that might be some bargaining power for you. You probably don't want interestin the pizza place anyway....your c hildren can still enjoy it with him. One thing that I put in my MDA (divorce papers) was that we both had to sign a prenumpital agreement if either of us decided to remarry. We own lots of property together and it is still in both of our names. I don't wnat the OW's children getting what my former H and I worked so hard to get...lake house, professional building, rental property, etc. Good luck. I bet you feel a bit more "empowered" by all of this....still sad that his stupid decisions forced you into making these decisions, but still a bit empowered.
Thank you everyone for your advice, kind words, and support. I really do appreciate it. Yes, I do feel a bit empowered, but I also feel much more needy at the same time. Not need in the sense I need my H, I mean support wise from friends, especially from those on this board. I feel like I am going in circles, like a rat trapped in a cage, plotting their escape...planning and waiting for the opportune time to run when the cage door is opened. Does this make any sense? I feel like a sponge, soaking up information, trying to get as much knowledge as I can to make the right decisions, to portect myself and the children. I am also extremely anxious. I feel like my heart is racing and I feel the stress in my neck...actually all over. I am so tense! So many thoughts swirling about...I cant even sleep.
I think my H knows that I am on the edge. How could he not sense it?!!! He has been particularly nice to me that last two days. Not really doing anything totally out of character, but he seems to be showing some concern for me, coming home a little earlier, calling me more, he even stopped by the house for aminute after he was done at the bank. But this is a pattern for him. When he senses I am about to run, he gives me crumbs...a little more attention or whatever. But as soon as he is secure that the threat is over he goes back to being indifferent and acting like he doesnt care. Trust me, I am not fooled by this behavior.
You know what scares me more than anything about the decision to leave is that I have heard this man say some vile and vendictive things when he is angry. Not that he has said them about me, but he has made comments about "things" he would like to do to others or see happen to others who he feels has done him wrong or has done some great injustice to the world or to someone he perceives as innocent.
Did anyone ever see that movie "War of the Roses", about a couple getting a divorce but they live in the same house, starring Michael Douglas? When we saw that at the movies with a group of friends (many, many years ago) my H actually stood up and started yelling things at the screen and applauding whenever the husband did something cruel to the wife. It was so embarrassing and humilating. Hey, I should have know even back then to run the other way! He always gets mad when he even hears that a wife got HALF in a divorce settlement, feeling that she did nothing to deserve half. And when his brother's wife cheated on him he was so furious, like how dare SHE cheat on HIS brother, but it was somehow OK for him to cheat on me? There are many other things I could use as examples but I think you get the picture. This is not going to be easy! He is not going to let me get away with (as he sees it)taking HIS house, and half of HIS money, and HIS children. How dare I!!!
Then I say...............take him for everything he has
Wow......talk about feeling like a piece of furniture. Carol if I were you I would start finding ways to put money aside somewhere right now and find a very good lawyer cause I suspect you will be in for the battle of your life.
But then, you have us and you are a strong strong woman!
Carol...sorry to find you so anxious. I guess my advice to you would be to start to collect asmuch of the financial information as you can. Do you two have stocks? Mutual Funds? Band CD's...etc. Anyway, get those statements together...now is a good time because all of the 1099 info should be coming to your home for income tax purposes. Any retirement? Again, you are ENTITLED to half of the marital property that you, as a couple, have accrued during your 20 year marriage. You get half of the value of the business..or he could swap out the house for the buisness. Or, he could buy you out. You own or are paying on yout home? whatever the equity, that is what you get half of. You might want to pay attention to what the homes in your neighborhod are selling for that are comparable in value to your own. That gives you a "ball park" estimate of its value. Also, if you work full time and have acquired any retirement, he is entitled to half of that and vice versa...you two might have a 401K or something....it is split down the middle. The child support and alimony (if there is any) will be calculated according to your st ate guidelines. I think that is the things that makes the payee most angry....having to pay the child support. It can really get bad, but it doesn't have to. There are many good web sites, as I have indicated before, that are out there for your information. If you need some information, let me know. I am a divorce mediator and know about most of the stuff involved in divorce/property settlements. good luck. Don't be afraid.....it can be done fairly. If he objects, the judge will make sure that is is done in the best interest of the children and you.
Thanks for the advice everyone. I am not even sure if we are going to get a divorce but I am definately going to aks for a seperation. I think you pretty much go through all the same stuff though. He cannot stay here if he is going to continue to use drugs. It's that simple! I cannot tolerate it any more. If he it esculates into a divorce then I am OK with that.
I had another talk with my in-laws tonight. They want to try to talk to him about his addiction and stopping. They say they are going to put their foot down. I told then I dont think it's going to do any good. They have been through this with their younger son and his addiction to heroin. I told them that they know my H has to want to stop, it has to be his choice. They said they know that, but feel they have some influence over him as his parents and he may be open to listening to them. Sure, he will "listen" to what they have to say the same way he "listened" to what I had to say. He just sat there, not saying a word. Did he stop? NO! What good did it do? NONE. I told them I cannot live like this anymore. The only thing I am afraid of is if they make things worse, like it may provoke him to get physical. He has never gotten physical with me, came close a few times, but that doesnt mean that he doesnt have it in him. I will check out the websites RW was talking about.
The difference between my brother-in-law and my H is that my BIL knew that what he was doing was wrong, and when his child was born he stopped! He stopped because he cared and loved his kid. My H sees nothing wrong with what he is doing and he says he does not have much feelings for me and the kids...so why should he stop? He has no incentive to want to stop.
Just one comment i want to make - don't proceed with this unless you ARE ready and prepared to accept that divorce may likely be the outcome. Don't assume that a seperation will fix things or suddenly make your husband wake up. You need to mentally prepare yourself for both realities although it is certainly okay to take one step at a time. I didn't do this and then found my world shattered when my ex didn't come running back. I thought for sure he would realize how much he loved and missed me and the life we had...........nope I was really wrong. Of course as soon as I kicked him out for further contact that suddenly became justification for his anger at me because I DARED to kick him from his home.......I think he forgot he did anything wrong haha.
Also, I am not sure I would want a third party such as your in-laws so heavily involved in trying to straighten him out until you are seperated.....of course that is my opinion only. It would seem to me like if he likes to pretend nothing is wrong he "may" view their interruption in his addictive life as your fault (cause you told them) and they will be forcing him to actually see the failure he has become (which with NPD can be tricky). Just like the affair, don't be surprised to get justifications and alot of anger.
You do what you need to do and I will support you 100% but I just wanted to point out some things maybe you haven't thought about. I wish you luck in whatever you decide.
Unfortunately I have considered all you've said already. Like I said, I want a seperation and if it leads to divorce I am OK with that. Right now, to me, my marriage is dead unless my H can stop using drugs. Then, and only then, do we stand any kind of a chance. I am realistic about that and feel I am correct in my thinking...it took me a long time to get here. And like I said in my other post, I do worry that his parents involvement may provoke him. He needs help, and maybe they can help him better than me, especially in a sense I figure he is going to need support and they can give him that as his parents when I cant. I also feel they have a right to know what is going on with their son and their grandchildren, not to mention that they are still part shareholders in the business. They are a big part of our lives. And I also saw his brother go through it, so I sorta know what to expect. I know, not the same when it is YOUR spouse, but I have had a glimpse and it is not pretty.
In all honesty, I do not expect him to come running after me once I ask him to leave. Quite the opposite, that is why this is such a hard step for me. If I thought it was a "cure-all" I would have done it a long time ago. I know he will have too much pride, especially as long as he continues the drugs. Now I see it as something I have to do for me and the kids for survival, not for the marriage. Does that make any sense? His drug addiction has been affecting the marriage for a long time and when the kids were younger it did not have as much of an impact on them as it does now...the older they have gotten the more the addiction has esculated too. So I do not see it getting any better, the marriage or the addiction. It is time to let him go and let him deal with his addictions and whatever else is going on inside of him. He is lost to me. He is lost to himself.
