So, something amazing happened this weekend that I want to share with you all. This is long, but please read it if you’re having troubles in your relationship and just don’t think you’re communicating anymore, or that one or both of you just don’t “get it”.
First, let me tell you if you don’t already know from my posts, I am ANYTHING but religious. I would call myself an atheist, but even that implies a belief that I cannot prove, so I don’t like that word or any other “label”. I consider myself to be a non-believer, but I have no problem with whatever anyone believes as long as it is for their own good and makes them stronger without hurting anyone else.
Because of this fact, when I first heard from Blazer Bob about this program called Retrouvaille and how it was put on by the Catholic Church, I didn’t pay it any mind. I just knew that wasn’t my cup of tea. But in the last week, when my wife had filed for Legal Separation and was going to force me to divide our assets, sell the house and move away from my children – and I was countering with a full dissolution of marriage with my lawyer – and knowing that this isn’t what I really wanted, I went on to the Retrouvaille website as a last desperation effort. I read the testimonials, which were impressive, but what got me were the articles from non-religious sources and references to the fact that the religion aspect has nothing to do with what it teaches, and that it has a 70-80% success rate. I figured it was a “what do I have to lose?” type of thing, and discovered that there was a program happening in my city that very next weekend. Unbelievably, a couple had dropped out and there was a space for us (don’t start with the “It was God’s Will” stuff…I don’t even believe in LUCK, OK?). The hard part was talking my wife into it, as she had checked out of the marriage and didn’t even want to look at me anymore, much less hear me utter two words to her. She agreed to go, if for no other reason than to hope it would help me communicate better to her through our divorce for the children’s sake. We even had a HUGE fight the morning we were to attend where she threatened not to go, but she finally relented.
I won’t go through the particulars of what went on, but suffice it to say that the results were nothing short of a miracle (attempted use of the word in the non-Biblical sort of way. OK, we get it…Bob is not a religious person). We went in on Friday night, both with our arms crossed and so angry at each other that we couldn’t see straight, and left Sunday night hand in hand, telling each other “I love you” and hopeful about rebuilding what we had lost. I cannot say enough good things about what this program did for us. It not only taught us a tool for communicating our feelings in a non-accusatory, non-threatening manner to each other (which we learned was the primary issue that causes resentment and leads to poor communication everywhere else), but the shared experiences and teachings from the couples who related their stories gave us the strength to realize that we truly did still love each other, and we were able to open our minds, get out of our egos, away from our pride and truly understand what each other have been going through. Half way through the program, my wife and I agreed that if we had known about this ten years ago, things would be so much different between us. We wish it were a mandatory program that couples would have to attend every ten years…it really is that powerful.
And – like I was saying – the religious aspect of it is really inconsequential. There is no preaching…no telling you how you should relate to any higher being. The couples relate their relationship to their beliefs here and there, and a Priest is part of the panel, but nothing is ever preached or pushed on you. The teachings are purely practical, not theological. And let me reassure you about one important thing. You never, ever have to relate your situation to anyone else if you don’t want to. You are taught in a group, but you work on the tools alone as a couple. Your issues stay your issues if you want to keep it that way. There are two “Open Session” times where anyone who wants can relate what they are experiencing or how the program is helping them, but it is strictly voluntary. The only thing the group heard from me was when I thanked the couples for having the guts and compassion to sit in front of us and tell us their stories that were so good for all of us to hear, because we could ALL relate to each one in one manner or another, and to thank them for giving us a renewed sense of hope for our relationship.
I think the folks running these programs are doing themselves a disservice by touting the religious aspect, but I understand why they are. It’s the Catholic Church, after all…and they believe strongly in their faith. And good for them. I just think that a LOT more couples would be more open to attending, and a lot more Individual & Marriage Counselors and Divorce Attorneys would be more willing to recommend it to their clients if they had a means to present it in a way that wouldn’t turn a large portion of the population away from it for the same reasons I wasn’t open to it in the first place. In fact, the more I thought about it, the angrier I became that between my wife and I we had three counselors and two attorneys who never even gave it a mention. My IC knew about it, but didn’t have a clue how effective it can be. I left him a couple brochures and told him he really should recommend it. But that’s the problem…counselors and attorneys aren’t in the business of helping you get better. That would put them out of work, and we can’t have that!!!
Seriously, if you are having any trouble in your marriage – and you probably wouldn’t be reading this if you didn’t – I highly recommend this program. There were couples in there from all walks of life, ethnicities, and ages. Some were already divorced, some separated for as long as 7 years, some in their twenties who knew they were getting off track, some with much worse situations than ours. One couple had been married 41 years. One couple admitted that they didn’t have any serious problems, but wanted to make sure they wouldn’t in the future (how smart is that?). All 25 couples walked out of the weekend with renewed hope. As far as I could tell, not one of them said they weren’t going to give their relationship another try.
My wife and I have already convinced at least three different couples we know into attending a future session. They are presented all over the country. Their website has program dates and locations (www.retrouvaille.org). Let me be clear, I am well aware – and the folks running the program made it very clear as well – that the problems that took so long to screw up a marriage can’t be fixed in one weekend…but the tools and understanding that this program provides you are such an incredibly positive basis to start working on it in a more constructive manner. There are six, four hour follow-up sessions every other Saturday, and you have to be committed to attending every last minute in order to acquire the full benefit, but that seems well worth it to me to rebuild – and make better - what I never wanted to lose in the first place…no matter HOW much pain it has cost to this point. I can now put that pain much farther in my rear view mirror and have learned what is truly important…and how to find it again. Slowly, but much more surely now.
Glad it helped you guys! How much did it cost? We are basically on our own because we can't afford counciling or anything. Besides,I don't have any idea what our problems were(are). He still says he was,and is, happy in the marriage. I was happy too.Go figure! I just have to wait around & hope he figures out what made him do it.Anyway, glad to hear that you found something that will work for you guys.
They don't turn anyone away who needs help and can't afford it. There is an anonymous, blank envelope donation at the end of the program. In our case, it cost $125 to sign up for the program so they will hold the rooms and pay for whatever it costs to rent the conference room in the hotel, then at the end, they told us that to cover our expenses for the weekend (they fed us very well, and the rooms were nice), and to cover the costs for the follow-up sessions, each couple's total cost was $600 (the area where we attended is a pricey area, so it may be less in places that aren't quite as expensive). That's where it stopped. No pressure whatsoever. They give you a blank envelope, send you back to your room to discuss it, and you put in whatever you think is right. You put the envelope on a stack and they don't look at them. If you choose to donate, you can ask for a receipt for tax writeoff, because it's a donation. We paid the full amount because it was SO worth it to us. I wish we could have given more. That's how valuable it was to us.
Thanks for the info Bob! Maybe I can talk to my H about it.My H isn't religious at all either but sounds like there's no pressure in that area.It's good to hear you be so upbeat!!!
Talked to H on the phone last nite(he's at the coast) & asked him if he would be willing to do this program. Told him to take time & think it over. I was expecting a "no" & he actually said he would do it. Boy, was I ever surprised!!! He's not the type to go to counciling or do any weekend programs like this. He asked if there was any in our area & I told him "yes". I had looked on their website after reading what Bob posted & found that the next one in Portland (2 hr. drive) is in June.Hey Bob, would your wife be interested in posting her thoughts on the program? I would like to hear what she thought of the program too.
I'll certainly ask her if she would like to comment. I know she feels the same as I do, and she has already called her friends and family to let them know how encouraged she is by it. It would be good for her to express it in her own words here if she is willing to do that. I'll ask her tonight.
Again - from my perspective - I was never the type to think counseling could help (and actually, MC hasn't come close to what this program has done), and I certainly would never have entertained the notion of attending a group session or "marriage boot camp"....just not my style, nor did I ever think (pre-affair) that our relationship needed this. I was even skeptical for the first few hours of this program, but we were at a point to where it was our last hope, so I committed to at least trying to get something out of it. I am a total convert now (obviously). Hopefully you know my line of thinking well enough from my posts over the last few months. I'm not easily swayed, consider myself to be a very logical thinker, and am no pushover. I don't consider myself a follower of things or ideas that look or sound good at the time...it has to be proven for me to consider it valuable...whatever it is. I wouldn't recommend this if I didn't truly believe in it. It's not from a starry-eyed, mystical perspective from which I recommend it. It's from being blown away at the simplicity and logic from which this program is based.
All I can say is, don't let it get bad enough to where you'll have to do this as a last hope. This program can work for any couple who is not communicating properly. That would be probably 95% of all couples in a long term relationship. Think about it...didn't you think you had a good marriage before this affair business? I sure did. Obviously, we were wrong. No matter which partner's issue that is/was, something was wrong, and this program can help right it again. Except of course for things like substance abuse/addiction or other such extraneous factors. That goes a little deeper into the individual's issues. This program is for couples who need to communicate and are willing to give it a shot.
Hi Bob! Thanks again for all the great info. I am going to have my H read your posts about this when he gets home on Sat. Like I said, he already said he is willing to go. That about made me fall over when he said that on the phone! If your wife is willing to post, it would be greatly appreciated but if she doesn't want to I would also understand.Is your wife religious? I am so happy that there is now hope in your life!! You deserve it!!!!
<<Except of course for things like substance abuse/addiction or other such extraneous factors. That goes a little deeper into the individual's issues. This program is for couples who need to communicate and are willing to give it a shot.>>
Wow Bob, I cant believe that any program could be that powerful. I am certainly glad that it helped you. I was thinking about trying to get him to go until I read this part of your post.
I have heard many good things about this program too.
Take care and I wish you and your wife the best...Carol~
I still wouldn't discount it, and that comment was mine - assuming that substance abuse would be an issue that needs to be dealt with on its own, and knowing that the program doesn't deal with that directly. It doesn't mean that the teachings would bounce off a person with such issues. Maybe Blazer Bob could help answer that better than me, as he has been active in that program for quite some time. I do know that one of the presenting couples in my weekend dealt with sexual addiction issues, and the program helped them rediscover each other, which in turn helped them to work through that addiction issue...but there was no mention of substance abuse. Their only prerequisite to attending was that if there was an affair as part of your issue, that the OP be out of the picture. Otherwise it won't work. You should still give it a try. I've read your other posts and it seems you're at a point where trying anything different could help, like we were. It sure helped us.
Barbara - No, my wife isn't religious either. She's not quite the extreme non-believer that I am...but I think she had similar reservations about the notion that this was a religious program, based on the website. That really isn't what it's about. It's just simply practical, brilliantly thought out, and intelligently presented.
(Edited for spelling errors)
This message has been edited by bobmorbitzer on Mar 2, 2006 8:27 PM
<<I do know that one of the presenting couples in my weekend dealt with sexual addiction issues, and the program helped them rediscover each other, which in turn helped them to work through that addiction issue...but there was no mention of substance abuse. Their only prerequisite to attending was that if there was an affair as part of your issue, that the OP be out of the picture. Otherwise it won't work. You should still give it a try. I've read your other posts and it seems you're at a point where trying anything different could help, like we were. It sure helped us.>>
Thanks Bob. I dont think he'd go. I cant even get him to take off a few hours from work let alone a few days.
What my C has said to me and I agree with him, that as long as my H is "involved" with his addictions he is still cheating on me. His involvement with drugs and workaholism takes away from the marriage just as the A did. It is the "fog" that is created and mantained by his continual involvement with the addictions just as a WS is still in a "fog" regarding the OP if they are still seeing them. That is the philosophy behind it anyway. The WS cant see past the fog of the A, just as my H cannot see past his pot fog.
Just wanted to say how encouraged I am reading your post. H and I are signed up for a weekend in April (did this before I read your post) b/c I have heard such great things about it. You are convincing me more.
The cost you quoted is very similar to the one we received, so I am sure they have standardized the pricing. However, should stress that if you can't afford it, they will not turn you away.
Over the years I had read a few testimonials like yours for Retrouvaille, and when my wife and I were still together there was a feature article on it in our local paper. I used the opportunity to ask her to go...she refused. That is the one serious "what if" I have left about our marriage...what if she'd said "yes".
Please keep us posted. People who come here love to read success stories, no matter how long and winding the road to recovery is.
"That is the one serious "what if" I have left about our marriage"
Chris
That leads me to wonder if you still have feelings for your ex even though she makes life difficult for you? I wish you the day that the only thing you'll think of is "thank god I'm out" and not "what if."
Charlie, I am glad I'm out and really don't have loving feelings toward my ex-wife; on the contrary. I cannot see any circumstances under which I'd ever get re-involved with her. Her lack of willingness to do things like Retrovaille are all the proof I need that she isn't a person I want to be with.
But that doesn't mean I don't have some regrets about the end of our marriage, but regrets about missed chances doesn't mean I still care for her.
Divorce and considerable economic setback is something I would never wish on anyone including myself. I often express some jealousy on these forums when two people get it back together (especially when a WS "gets it" and gets busy fixing herself and her marriage). Those successful healed marriages preserve families and economic circumstances for their children.
What I regret in this case is that she chose to pass up an opportunity, especially one so promising as Retrovaille, when I was willing and able to do my part.
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond to my issues and that of others. Some of the things you said to me really spoke to my situation and outlook.
You are an incredibly strong person, and have had a breakthrough in your marital crisis. I am grateful to you for sharing your experiences. It is courageous and selfless of you.
I wish you best of luck in your life. Your sharing has given me hope and optimism.
Thank you Jay, that is very kind of you to say....and you're welcome. I don't post as often as I'd like to, but I'm glad I was able to give you a little bit of help/advice/comfort. Everyone here has been so supportive of me during my crisis. I don't know if I'd survived without this forum....I had nobody to talk to. This truly is a safe haven for which I will be eternally grateful.
As far as our breakthrough, we've been having pleasant and very open conversations about everything lately. Last night, we worked together until very late on a new business proposal that she's trying to get started. We've been enjoying our children more (and they've become so much happier, of course), we watch television together (Sopranos is about the only thing we'll sit down for anymore), and genuinely enjoy being around each other again. All because we learned to communicate properly. Yes, the pain is still there, and we both have bad days, but the difference now is that we help each other through them, instead of thinking to ourselves that the other person deserves that pain for what they did (and maybe even trying to enhance it just a little more). It's really a miraculous turnaround...like the light is shining through the window again after six months of darkness.
No matter what anyone may think is the "right" way to recover from this trauma, there isn't one...and recovery aint gonna happen if both people don't feel safe enough to communicate with each other properly. That's what we both lost sight of. We were in a self-perpetuating tailspin.
I will ask my wife again if she would like to post/comment about her experience and feelings about this program (and how she feels we're getting along) like Barbara had asked earlier on. I know it would help to hear about it from her. She's been so busy with her new business, kid's sports activities and work that she hasn't had much time to do anything else lately.
Hang in there. Believe it or not - and I didn't EVER believe it when people said this to me - it does get better with time (and it's painfully clear that everyone's timeline is different). It at least gets easier to cope, and the more positive things you can accept into your daily routine, the less obsessing you do on all of the negative issues. Tex's "Obsession" post in the Discovery Forum yesterday is incredibly insightful.
Charlie perhaps when you get involved very quickly after a marital breakup you don't have as much time to ponder in your brain and ask yourself whatif's. You have a new love to focus on and you don't find yourself alone on a Saturday night after not having sex for many years, not getting any affection, etc. You are probably so focuses on your new love that you find it easier to forget about the past. Partly because that new excitement is there and partly because other areas of your life are fulfilled.
I personally (and maybe Chris) have alot of time on my hands to reflect. It isn't that we want to be with our ex's, but rather we don't have something fresh and new to redirect our thoughts to. It is like really liking the car you have and then getting into an accident. If you don't replace it you still think about it and what if you hadn't gotten in the accident. If you buy a new one then you are happy as pie and you more easily forget about the old one. Fresh memories replace the old and the older ones fade.
Does that make us stuck in the past. I don't think so. I think it allows me time to really know what is in my heart and my head and discover who I really am and what makes me happy with nobody else in my life. Also, the longer time goes on the more specific I become about the person I would actually allow in my life, the questions I would ask and the things I would want to know.
How are ya watermelon woman? Oh it is getting to be that time of year again.......watermelons are starting to look a bit better and I can't wait to sink my teeth into the first watermelon of the year Somehow, now, watermelons always remind me of you!
Somehow, now, watermelons always remind me of you!