It has been a while since I've posted and thought I would touch base. I would like to get your input from both sides of some challenging questions that people have been asking me. I am curious how you would respond to this with the what if scenario.....
What if you were in a situation in your marriage where your spouse became seriously ill or was in a serious accident and your spouse became a quadriplegic (paralyzed from neck down)and you've been taking care of your spouse over the long duration of your marriage. You are the caregiver for your spouse taking care of his every needs. During this duration, you have been longing for intimacy but your spouse cannot have sex with you the way you would like. How would you meet your own sexual need?
To keep an affair ever happening, but have an intimate relationship, would you ...
a) stay with your marriage and be a celibate?
b) find a way and mean to put your spouse in a nursing home and get a divorce so you can have an intimate relationship with another person?
c) other ways?
What would be those other ways to satify your own sexual needs as you take care of a disabled spouse??
I would be interested in how you would answer someone who would ask these kind of questions.
Hi Lee.... good to 'see' you, my friend..... looooong time...
and here you are with a doosy of a question!!! I am sure a lot of us have asked themselves this kind of question in view of Christopher Reeves' life and his spouse's death.
My thoughts would be - would, because I have not been put in this kind of situation - my thoughts would hinge on the level of communication the couple would have had and continues to have before and after the precipitant factor. Altho some strata do not consider sex as a normal function for me it is, as normal is food, water, sleep and relaxation.
So in order to answer your question....I cannot answer it the way it is worded ...
And #2 would be the most cruel of them all. Abandonning such a spouse whom one is supposed to love and cherish "just" to have sexual satisfaction is for me the epitomy of cruelty and selfihness. Entering the 'secret' realm of a couple sexuality is a tantalizing idea for researchers and John Q Public but not 2 couples are the same - on the surface they may be, but their own secret garden is well kept secret.
Interesting question. I don't know that any of us can give a definitive answer to this as we never truly know how we would react in some situations until it happens to us. After all, how many of us thought we would leave or throw out our spouse if they were ever to have an A? And yet here we are, trying to make a go of it.
That being said, I think I would chose option a. I can't imagine divorcing him in this situation. As Kat said, it seems particularly cruel, as does having an A, but also because I took a vow for better or worse. If I loved him, I would love him whether he became paralyzed, or blind, or had cancer, or whatever handicap or disease he may develop. He would still be the same person inside. As for having to be celebate, again, I feel you do what you have to do for the person you love. It may be easier for me to say that at 54 years old. I might feel a lot differently if I was 30. No matter what your age, though, true intimacy can be achieved without ever having to engage in sexual intercourse. If the person still has all their mental faculties there are any number of ways to be intimate with each other and for you to get some physical pleasure and release too.
It's funny, Lee, this very question was raised by my ex-wife as part of our discussion about the importance to me of having a satisfying sexual relationship with my wife.
The question was hypothetical, of course, but it was a little closer to home than your question.
My answer then was, "I made a promise". (However, there's a big difference between a "no choice" situation like disease or paralysis and one where one spouse simply isn't interested in doing anything about it.)
In the "no choice" situation the only viable option I see is self-pleasure. Deliberately ignoring a spouse's emotional needs by using sex as a weapon or lever...that leads to divorce.
Good question. In the 70s, my uncle was hit by a drunk driver and paralyzed from the waist down. He and his wife were in their early 40s - still very active and full of life. Over the years, my aunt was encouraged to find a physical relationship outside of her marriage. My uncle even encouraged it and asked his sisters to try and persuade her, to encourage her that it would be ok. As far as anyone knows, she never did and wouldn't even entertain the idea for the sake of discussion. She said she would never even think about it because this fell under the "for better or worse" part of her vows. On one occasion, she did say that his the REST of his body was "able" - so maybe they adapted, in other ways.
That said, I know that paraplegic and quadriplegic have vastly different limitations. WOW. Everything I write sounds trite and like I'm a sex fiend so I'll just say that... I'd like to think that it wouldn't be an issue and that I could take care of it myself, so to speak.
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
I guess I need to revisit the "What If" again. As I mentioned earlier in this post, my FWS had become an ill spouse. As a result, I visit another forum for support for the well spouses who are caregivers of their spouses. I get the needed support and information on this particular forum so I can provide better caregiving for my H...I just try to avoid the "Intimacy and Personal Issues" forum as it often deal with affairs. Well this time, I couldn't resist not visiting that particular forum as I was following one poster's story with great interest. To make a long story short, this poster actually did go outside of the marriage as her H, who suffered a massive brain stem stroke six years ago at the age of 46, has been hospitalized & remains in a nursing home ABI(acquired brain injured)SCI (spinal cord injury) quadriplegic. Well, her OM basically told her husband and his 76 years old mother about the affair. It was totally devastating for everyone involved. Here is this quadriplegic in a nursing home being told that his wife is having an affair in hopes the OM could force her to divorce her quadriplegic husband. The quad husband is cognitively all there and very aware that life sucked everything out from under him.
I am so devastated for this man that I don't even know. Do you feel it was wrong and cruel for this OM to tell this quad (for vindictive reasons since the W broke off the relationship to stay with her marriage)?
This is one of those unusual situations that raises many questions from the deep.
On the surface, it appears that the OM was being manipulative. It also appears that this woman is trying to do what's right by following two opposing paths simultaneously.
It's hard to imagine the difficulty for a cognitive paralyzed man to be able to accept his fate and also give his wife his blessings to stray or divorce.
Absolutely cruel but sometimes humans are. I guess I'm wondering why she broke off the relationship with OM. Was it because she saw something in him that she didn't like or did her guilt get the best of her?
I think it all turns on a definition of "alive". This is different from the Terry Schiavo case in that the man has cognitive awareness. In the Schiavo case I thought that the "cruelty" was perpetrated by the woman's parents after the husband let go. He became a nurse to care for her, and apparently satisfied himself that she was gone before starting his new relationship.
The case Leewerd brings to us seems different, and it seems to me that any cruelty was caused jointly by the W and the OM. She knew the H was "cognitively aware"--not gone--and presumably didn't have a heart-to-heart with him about what she wanted/needed. I make no judgement about whether it would have been right for her to talk to him about "other arrangements"...only that she didn't do so first.
Only the H and W know the state of their relationship and the promises they made to each other, and each one knows whether they can keep those promises.
The wife did end the relationship with OM about a year ago, when being with OM would make her miss H even more. She still loves her H deeply. Besides, OM started making demands of her to spend time with him instead of her visiting her H at the nursing home, or her taking care of her 3 children. Wife putting her H and her children and her job first didn't sit well with OM at all. OM had asked her to marry him. OM demanded that she would divorce H by a certain date and marry him.
She is very remorceful and she is very afraid that her H may be suicidal. She is concerned he would one day leave the nursing home in his motorized wheelchair and set himself onto the railroad tracks.
Basically, OM is very vindictive and has a stalking type personality when WS chose to stay in her marriage, chose not to divorce her disabled husband and chose to end all contact with OM. This OM got pictures and he sent an anonymous letter to the hospital. Actually this OM sounds like dangerous person who takes advantage of the vulnerables.
This message has been edited by Leewerd on Apr 14, 2007 12:42 PM
Wow , that story hits so close home for me. I had a brain stem stroke in '96- basilar artery tore, formed a clot and I was completely paralyzed, except my eyeballs. ( Lot's of people here know the story, sorry to repeat). I was flown to OHSU where the neurointerventionist put a line in my femoral artery and gave me urokinase to bust up the blood clot. Get this, I was first taken by ambulance to local hospital where my H was on duty. I was his patient. Well, here I am today, 99.99999% recovered. I am one of very few people who have had such a remarkable recovery. Most have died or are disabled.
Here is the kicker- this happened in Nov. '96, in April '97 is when my XH decided that he was too stressed out from his job in the ER, from raising four sons, from not knowing is I was going to be normal, ( I aint),
he needed to get away to a tropical beach and sit with a pina colada. FINE, I say, go have a good time.. I thought he was going alone. No, he decided to invite an old female dog from high school. And the rest is history.
Well, I have the last laugh... F 'em both!
I wish I was there I would go visit her H.
And that OM sounds like an evil, selfish bastard. How cruel to do that to someone struggling with life.
I know all too well how painful and lonely it is to live without intimacy or touch from your partner. It may make a difference when your partner is physically unable as opposed to unwilling, but I think a lot of the feelings are the same. While I am reluctant to condone infidelity, I can certainly understand how this situation would make someone vulnerable, not only for physical needs but for emotional ones. What I can't understand is why OPs think that they can get a WS to leave their marriage by telling the BS. As if the BS is holding the WS hostage and the truth will set them free. It's very sad.
Rosie
This message has been edited by Rosie_ on Apr 14, 2007 2:37 PM
OMG!! This truly does hit too close to home for you!!! You have made a rare and miraculous recovery from the brain-stemmed stroke. It sounds like you received a quick emergency response for treatment. How long did the recovery take? It is hard to believe that your ex-husband didn't have the strength to stay in the marriage to help you recover with your disability especially if he has the strength to work in the ER.
I read somewhere on another forum that the divorce rate among the well spouses/ill spouses is 80%. I thought that was extremely high. I am asking the members on the other forum where they get this statistics. When I find out where to get the data, I'll let you know the source. BTW, what is the divorce rate caused by affairs?
TLMM, I am so sorry that this story hits so close to home for you. You, not only had to work so hard to recover physically, but you also had to recover from the affair as well as go through the divorce. What a devastating blow and a triple whammy!!!
I walked out of the hospital after five days of being hooked up to an IV of coumadin, which I had to take for 6 mos.
I could walk, but my gait was funny, kinda like how a clown walks. I could read, but I couldn't understand complete sentences. My handwriting was funny looking. And even moderate stimuli was overwhelming.
I did go back to school and graduated four yrs. later.
The biggest change was my personality. If I started to laugh, ( and I would laugh at just about anything ) I couldn't stop- sometimes for several minutes- uncontrollabe. Many people thought I had "lost it".
Surviving near death, changes how one views life and humanity. The day I was released from the hospital my X took me to the nicest restaurant in town. I had to restrain myself from jumping up on the table and yelling, "You are all so lucky to be alive!" Some people said I looked "transformed". Well, I was.
There is a slide with pics of my brain on it. It has been used in lectures all over the country.
There is so much more to this story that is surreal, ie., I was in the hospital on my 43rd. birthday and the doc (Dr. Stanley Barnwell) who saved my life, and I, are the exact same age.
Life is magnificent, even the suffering.
Oh, and to answer how I would deal with a spouse that was unable to "perform" well, we could make love with our eyes and a vivid imagination.
This message has been edited by taigalucy on Apr 15, 2007 1:18 AM This message has been edited by taigalucy on Apr 15, 2007 1:00 AM
A near death experience is definitely a life altering experience and it surely does transform you like you never imagine. I often wonder if one gets a glimpse of oneself from a different perspective and then somehow something pulls you back into your own body, saying "No, it's not time to go yet."
Doesn't the age of 43 seem too young to have a stroke? Life experiences like this shows you never know when something will happen.
I commend you for the tremendous progress you've made and the obstacles you've overcome. I am in awe.
I have put some thought into this very question since being diagnosed with MS recently. In addition to that I also have Benign Positional Vertigo that keeps reappearing and leaves me sick to my stomach and constantly dizzy. I wonder what I could possibly bring to the table in a new relationship, and I think what would or could have happened should I still be married.
Funny, but I look back now and realize that my ex didn't have the guts to handle the medical truths I have learned lately and I likely would have been divorced anyway.
I think for me it all boils down to honesty. I would expect no matter how painful it would be to tell me, that the partner I am with tells me that he has tried to remain faithful and just can't do it and must seek outside relief. If it was a long term partner who I spent many years with healthy and either of us had recently gotten sick, then I would respect the "in sickness and in health" vows that were made or at least be honest with my partner or expect that same honesty back.
I can attest that a person can live without intimacy, sex or any sort of affection for a very long time, perhaps longer than most people ever imagine. One day turns into the next and you just do it - I rarely even think about it anymore.
It is a bit of a more touchy subject in a new relationship. I would never expect somebody to stay with me and care for me, without getting anything in return, although I would hope they had the strength and empathy to do just that. I think a relationship has to be 50/50 and although it can go back and forth it should equal out eventually. In a new relationship there is alot of pressure if one spouse cannot live up to their 50% ever.
It's more common that ya mght think. Mine was due to an artery tearing internally- hemorraghic stroke. IOW it didn't tear all the way through the arterial wall. If it had, I would have died within min.
Oh and just for fun, google Dr. Stanley Barnwell. A real sharp cookie he be.
NEW YORK, Oct. 21, 2003
(AP)
(CBS) A young woman is more likely to die of stroke than both breast cancer and AIDS combined, according to the November issue of Prevention magazine.
This message has been edited by taigalucy on Apr 15, 2007 2:45 AM
that she talked about how 80% of marriages in which one spouse is diagnosed with MS fail within a year or two of the diagnosis.
Some of these marriages could have been only a year or two old at the time of diagnosis...the 50% of all marriages that end up in divorce within a few years.
To my knowledge no counts have been done of the general spousal caregiver population, well spouses were always lumped in with the "family caregiver" category. The numbers have been done for seniors, however -- over 65, since in the public's mind they are the ones one would expect to be spousal caregivers. A recent survey done for Johnson & Johnson found that an estimated 120 million adults in America either provide care now, or have done so in the past. About 2/3 of Americans (140 million) expect to be caregivers in the future and of those, 11% (15.4 million) expect to be looking after a spouse.
Other statistics have been done on marriage breakups due to disability, counting the numbers of disabled individuals who live alone and who were (at least once) married. That statistic is somewhere around 40%, with another 40% never married, if memory serves, so that leaves 20% still married, all of them with spousal caregivers.
Lee
Edited to correct some typos
Edited to get rid of all of the underscores in my posting!!!!!!
This message has been edited by Leewerd on Apr 15, 2007 11:56 AM This message has been edited by Leewerd on Apr 15, 2007 11:47 AM
This is a really good thread. MM, I think I remember your mentioning your stroke in passing, but I had no idea ....
Many of us here have been betrayed when we were most vulnerable. It is simply cowardly and selfish.
I made a scrapbook photo album of my parents lives and marriage for their 50th wedding anniversary in 2000. In fact, I was thinking about it the other day. I want to show it to my children again and again when they grow up, so that they can see what love and vows really mean.
I did a google on Dr. Stanley Barnwell. It is quite impressive. Dr. Stanley Barnwell's medical expertises definitely saved your life. It's too bad there aren't a lot of doctors like Dr. Stanley Barnwell who can save more lives.
It is really something how we were growing up (even the young adult population how we feel we are invincible and we just take our health for granted.
Maybe, I am a hypochondria but when I experienced my first Dday, I thought I was really dying and I was dying too young. (I was still in my 30's). It's surprising how Dday affects you physically. I think I've been health conscious since my college days. I just wish my H was more health conscious and maybe I wouldn't be put into this caregiving role.
Lee, that is a really sad situation, what a creep of an OM.
MM, I never realized how bad your situation was back then. I remember you talking about it somewhat but didn't know you were paralyzed.
"Surviving near death, changes how one views life and humanity."
Yes, having almost died a few months ago myself, I certainly have changed my viewpoint on life a great deal. I remember talking to my mom while I was in ICU and telling her what to say to my kids should I not make it. I also remember worrying about my special needs son and what would happen to him. I remember thinking that my ex might likely put him in a home after he got to be a certain age and that hurt pretty badly. I had about 16 doctors or more following my case trying to guess why I got so bad and all were very interested in figuring it out.
I just went on a bike ride with one of my friends yesterday and she was telling me how one of the doctors in her office (she's a nurse) was talking about my case with several other docs in their office and after hearing my symptoms, she told them that they were talking about her friend. These doctors told her that she better go visit soon that day. They told me they only had two other cases "somewhat" like mine in the past two years and one who was "nearly" as bad as me died - of course they only told me that after I started recovering and they knew I'd make it - LOL. Pretty scary. I remember feeling like I was happy just to see the sky when I got outside. I'm very lucky that I don't have any long term affect, most do.
It's funny, I call friends and especially my family much more now realizing that I should keep in touch a lot more. So many of my friends, who live far away, now keep in touch with me so much better and I can't tell you how many times friends have written lately and told me they were lousy friends because they didn't call or write enough - I have to laugh about that because I guess I've been a lousy friend too.
Don't I stand a grand ole chance of living a happy normal married life"
Kid
Lets just ignore those damn statistics, huh?
I've heard that about 80% or more of military marriages die and also about 80 - 90% of marriages with a special needs child also fail. That gave my ex and I about a 160% chance of non-survival and I ain't buyin it dammit. I WILL have a nice normal marriage again someday!
I am bringing this back up to the top since I was reading about John Edwards admitting to having an affair. I often wonder if his motivation for having an affair is related to his wife, Elizabeth having breast cancer. Anyway, I am hoping that Elizabeth doesn't have a downturn even more so due to the publicity of John's affair. I know it is hard enough to stay healthy while one is recovery from the affair.
It makes me wonder what was going on in John's and Elizabeth's heads when they would be sitting together and the ads would come on portraying him as such a committed family man. The unspoken emotion in the air must have been stifling.
Every betrayed spouse's situation is different. However, when you are living in the public eye like that, you have to know that the possibility of your affair leaking out to the press is HUGE. Hello? You knew you weren't going to leave your wife. Did you really think somebody wasn't going to get to this information and use it? So now your wife and your kids are humiliated before literally the whole world. "how's that workin' out for ya?" as Doctor Phil would say.
Guess I just feel that when you have a family and you are in the public eye (especially with an eye to the presidency), you'd be better off taking care of business at home. We're all lonely. Caregiving and its losses really suck. But would we step outside our vows if there was ANY possibility that our kids would have to see our new significant other's picture next to ours in the newspaper, if they and our spouses had to know that we were on tv stammering about how the new SO made us feel? I always felt so sorry for Chelsea Clinton when all that stuff came out. Hilary was an adult, she made her choice to stay despite the serial adultery. Chelsea lost her innocent belief in her Daddy as she watched him fall off the pedestal every little girl wants her father to be on. Now John's children are suffering this way too. Was it really worth it?
