Today I had an IC session. Just bouncing off some thoughts....

My C said something to me today that made me think, but then he always makes me think, lol.  That's why he gets the big bucks

I asked him if it would mean anything if H decided to go on the trip to Italy with us this summer?  He said "H isnt going to go".  I said he shows interest and seems to want to go.  He said "but he still wont go...he has to leave the pizzeria and he cant bring the pot with him on the plane, so why would he want to go?"  I said because he seems to care alot about his heritage.  He said "if he cared a lot about heritage then he would care a lot about you and the kids".   I guess he's got me there!  Then I said what about a bottom line, a deal breaker?  If H doesnt go I tell him it's over...we deserve at least 2 weeks out of the year to be with us, at minimum.  C said "you deserve much more and what you're asking for is not unreasonable but it is to him".  I said but if he doesnt go he is saying that me and the kids just dont matter.  C said "exactly! If that's your bottom line, then you need to tell him. He's told you his."

Got my new car today.  C asked me how that mad me feel.  I told him that I should be really happy, it's a gorgeous car and I like it a lot, but I am not happy.  He said is it in your name?  I said no.  HE said why not?  I said because everything is in H's name.  But if it's my car I dont see why it cant be in my name?  He said "did you ask H to put it in your name?"  I said no.  C said why not?  I said because it's just not worth the effort anymore.  Everytime I ask H to put something in my name or even "our" names he refuses.  I said I considered asking but felt defeated already.

C told me H is not going to change no matter how much I change or what I do.  Pretty much said there is no hope. We speak two different languages.  Mine is "BEING" as in being together and doing things together...being a family, being husband and wife.  My H is "HAVING" and in aquiring things, like cars, a house, a business, or whatever.  Having a wife and family but not being with them.  He made it sound like we were more like posessions than people.  And I think maybe that is how H sees me and the kids...look at my beautiful wife, my adorable kids, my expensive car, and my successful business.  But all of the things he keeps aquiring are not enough....he needs to aquire more things and more power.  To H "things" equal power.  H feels as longa s he give me "things" I should be happy without him "being" with me and the kids.  But I am not happy. 

C says "you are a great mom and a good wife and you have done nothing wrong. But you have not stood up for yourself.  As soon as H started to do things that you did not agree with you should have put your foot down.  If you look back and think about it you will know exactly when and what Im talking about".  He was right.  The first time I felt H was crossing the line was right after we got the pizzeria.  We used to be closed on Mondays but H said he wanted to open on Mondays because we are not making enough money, there were time we go without a paycheck.  I begged H not to open on Mondays, I told him I dont care about the money...you need time off and you need time to be with me and the kids.  H opened anyway and that was that.  I thought it was a scarafice to get the business off the ground.  I had no idea it would tunr out the way it has.  Second time was when we lost the baby and he wouldnt even take time off to take me to the hospital or to comfort me.  I was so hurt and had even thought of divorce right then and there.  My gut was telling me something but I thought it was my emotions from the loss of the baby.  That was 8 years ago!  I could have saved myself a lot of grief and pain had I listened to myself back then. " If you did say something to your H and told him how you feel but he did it anyway then he just doesnt respect you".  True...H doesnt respect me and he certainly doesnt take me seriously.

Carol~

 

hi carol,

your counsellor sounds pretty good and pretty straight forward, has he met you husband at all, he makes some pretty 'black and white' statements about him doesnt he.

i was interested in his comment about H not going to italy, i too would surprised if your H went, i imagine if he did it would be because he felt 'pressured' to do the right thing by his parents etc, arent they going too???

i am also stunned that you do not have any assets in your name. now i understand there are tax reasons for doing such things, eg your car but leased through the business (i dont know if that is what you are doing but i can understand it not being in your name for that reason).

however, other stuff, that is weird, what about the house???any other investment property you might have, even the business, although you might be better off not being linked to that if he goes broke one day haha.

but your lawyer needs to sort out your access to assets that is for sure.

re italy, would you wnt H to come now, giving the growing you are making, would it feel like he was with you, or just moving the problem and issue overseas. a holiday is to have fun, if it was me i think i might have more fun without him, sadly. who knows if he doesnt come it might be just a nice break for you and the wedge that helps you leave or not return.

take care girl
kath

Kath,

My C is doing an excellent job.  He makes black & white statements about H because he mainly deals with substance abuse and is a drug addictions counselor and knows how most people with addictions think. He has not met my H personally and can only go by what I tell him, just like all of you here on the board.  So he is helping me to really see how I view my H . My H is abusive but I couldnt admit that to myself...not until I dealt with my childhood issues of abuse...then I made the connection. Funny how that works!  But all of you saw how abusive my H was in my writing here on the board long before I recognized it myself.  Without the help of my C those blinders would still be on.

True, H may feel "pressured" to go to Italy, and yes his parents are going.  In fact, they are setting up the trip.  It will buy H a little more time with me if he does go only because we will actually have a chance to talk and be together without the pizzeria to distract him.  We will just have to see how that goes.  And if he doesnt go, then I will know he is just not interested in having a family in the very real sense....we are for appearances only and not for being with.  That is a sad fact to have to face! 

About the car...well, it is not a lease and has nothing to do with our business or our taxes.  NOTHING HAS MY NAME ON IT, NOTHING! You may draw your own conclusion..........................

Take care....Carol~

 

<<<<You may draw your own conclusion..........................>>>>

what about your very own and genuine conclusion???

And as you walk you make your path Kat

<<what about your very own and genuine conclusion???>>

First, it says to me that he is what most people call a power person...this is one way he gets his power and feels secure.  By having everything in his name he feels he has control and power over all of it, including me. 

Second, it means to me that he is selfish and in this relationship soley for himself.  That he does not take me into consideration one bit.  It means to me that he is not invested in the relationship...it is not a partnership.

Am I wrong?  If so please tell me...what am I missing here? I am really asking, not being sarcastic.  Sometimes I need someone to say litterally what they mean and what may be obvious to others but not to me. Yes, I am that unsure of myself...that unsure that my instincts, opinions, and thoughts are wrong.  I question myself most of the time. 

Take care...Carol~

 

>>He makes black & white statements about H because he mainly deals with substance abuse and is a drug addictions counselor and knows how most people with addictions think<<

I like your counselor, Carol. I've noticed that people (counselors, social workers, etc.) who have experience working with addicts often seem to be able to recognize bullshit when they see it. They're also more willing to say so than other kinds of counselors. I suspect that is because people who have been around addicts get lots of practice cutting through bullshit. Addicts ultimately leave you with few real choices - either you learn to cut through the nonsense or you participate in their fantasy world.

It will be interesting to see how your h deals with the Italian vacation. My guess is that your counselor is right - he will not go but that he will continue to find it very difficult to say so.

Thanks Quinn...I like him too...and you're right about him seeing through the bullsh_t  

Carol~

Howdy Carol,

I agree with everything Q posted. I too also like your C.

Just a thought here but have you considered what it might be like (if he does go) spending 2 weeks with someone in withdrawal? I doubt there would be much time for bonding as a family while this is happening. Could be part of the reason he doesn't want to go. No drugs. One thing about addications...they are devious and always plan ahead.

The addication will win everytime until he admits there's a problem and seeks help for it. If it were me, that would be my bottom line. Everything else revolves around that.

I read something interesting while checking out some sites for a different poster. Addications are labeled so because they have a negative impact on the addicts life. That's how an addict recognizes its a problem...a negative impact to THEM personally. After all the blame-shifting and excuses of course.

Everything seems to be status quo for your H...hence no problem.

The kids deserve more than a stoned parent and you deserve more than a stoned H. He's not going to see a problem until it effects HIM.

What are your thoughts?

Regards,

Tex

I also really like your counselor! So often we hear about the "fog" that the WS is in during an affair and how it makes them see the OW/OM in such a positive light. I thing we as BS are also in a "fog" during the affair. We tell ourselves that our H or W would never do such a thing, that we're silly for being suspicious. We tell ourselves that H or W will come to their senses, and see the good and positive things in the them that we fell in love with when sometimes those things just no longer exist. We allow ourselves to be fed a load of crap because it's not as painful as realizing that the person we committed our lives to has become a lying, immoral piece of crap and it scares us to death to think they may not be able to go back to being the person we married. That's why your counselor is so helpful - he can make the issue black and white and call things as he sees them because he's not in the same "fog". Sorry to be so negative, but after my own experiences in the past week all I see are the excuses I made for my H's behavior when there really is no excuse. It's not enough to just say you love someone and want to save your relationship. You have to really mean it and be willing to make your actions follow those words. For your sake, I hope your WS is willing to do that.

Tex said, "Just a thought here but have you considered what it might be like (if he does go) spending 2 weeks with someone in withdrawal?"

EXCELLENT point. I know that with the ex, we took a week vacation about 3 weeks before he left and it was MISERABLE towards the end. The last 2 days were absolutely un-freakin'-bearable. ExH was pissy with everyone and everything. He found fault with EVERYTHING and made it awful. He hadn't been high since the night before we left and was seriously fiending for weed by mid-week. There was also the issue of him being fiending for his latest "FRIEEEEND", but I've seen the pot- withdrawal and know it's a monster.



Monica

This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot

Can I play the 'what if' game for a second ?

My BIL smokes alot of pot on a daily basis.  Two years ago, the entire family went to Italy for a two week vacation.  I would assume that my BIL bought his pot while he was in Italy.  Although I was not on this trip to be sure...my best guess is that he found his pot somewhere because there is no way he didn't smoke pot for two weeks.

Carol said <<I said but if he doesnt go he is saying that me and the kids just dont matter.>>

What if your H goes to Italy, finds some pot while he's there...and spends the vacation stoned?  Your H would still be demonstrating to you that you and the kids don't matter.  What is your dealbreaker going to be then?

Kara

<<<I said but if he doesnt go he is saying that me and the kids just dont matter>>>

He tells you that everyday. You just need to hear it and then accept it then decide if you and the kids deserve being a last priority. That really IS the bottom line.

You will drive yourself crazy playing the "what if" game. Right now, this second...deal with what's happening in the now.

What if. What if he stops smoking. What if he doesn't. What if he goes on this trip. What if he doesn't. What if he has a good time. What if he doesn't. It'll go on and on and on.

What if you decide you and the kids don't want to play this game anymore? The children are players in this, they just don't know it.

What happened the next night y'all didn't have sex? Did he get want he wanted the next night? If he did then again...no problem to him. You were having a " moment" and he waited you out and won.

If you didn't...kudos to you for not enabling it. Stop waiting for him and worse yet his addication to decide how your life is going to go.

Go on the trip and have a good time. It's your life...live it.

Tex

Tex....I guess instead of playing 'what if'...it's just another thing for Carol to consider.  You pointed out that he might be a force to be reckoned with if he goes through withdrawal....and I'm pointing out that he may not go through withdrawal at all - he'll find a way to remain stoned.

Carol, I can understand how you might use this trip as some sort of dealbreaker for you...but there is so much nonsense that he could still pull even if he does go to Italy.  What kind of holiday is it for you and the kids if he is stoned the whole time....or if he's miserable because he can't get any pot?  The other thing is that if he is the 'golden child' in his family....and you don't treat him like a king while he's on vacation...his family is going to notice.  I'm not saying for a second that you should give a crap about that...but you might have a difficult time with it.  This will be even more frustrating for you if your H justs sits back and laps it up....his family thinks he's the hero and that there is something wrong with you for not treating him as such.

The only reason I'm focusing on this vacation is that you seem to have some hope hinging on it.  How do you think you will feel if he decides to go?  How do you think you will feel if he's stoned while he's there?  How do you think you will feel if he's miserable because he can't get stoned?  How is any of this going to make one shred of difference for the horrible way you've allowed yourself to be treated by him for the past 2 years?

Kara

Howdy Kara,

It was your post that made me think. What if. You were right. What if...what? That's a hard way to live...waiting for... something... so you can choose how your life will go.

You wrote an eye opening post...I just played the other side.

The bottom line is: does the addication rule everyone's life or not? It sucks everyone in...like a blackhole in space...if you let it.

Are you sucked in or not? Things will not change until you change them.

It doesn't matter if he goes or not.

Was that your point?

Tex

>>It means to me that he is not invested in the relationship ... it is not a partnership ... Am I wrong?  If so please tell me...what am I missing here? ... Sometimes I need someone to say litterally what they mean and what may be obvious to others but not to me. Yes, I am that unsure of myself ... that unsure that my instincts, opinions, and thoughts are wrong.  I question myself most of the time<<

I had the same experience - questioning myself most of the time. I never seemed to be able to figure out if I was seeing things accurately. I think there were several reasons for that. My (then) wife was probably the person who I would usually touch base with to check whether my radar was working. Unfortunately, she was AWOL.

Living with an addiction is hard on radar. It's not that the radar screen goes blank one day. Rather, objects sometimes show up on the radar screen that aren't really there. Large objects that are nearby sometimes don't show up at all. Partly, that was because my (then) wife had good reason for not wanting to see my radar working smoothly. More importantly, I did too.

I don't think you're wrong. As you may remember, my X was addicted to alcohol. She was committed to that partnership. Everything else was secondary although she couldn't say so. It was a secret, even to herself (except perhaps on rare occasions). She had invested enormous amounts of energy convincing herself (and anyone who would listen) that she was fine and that there was nothing wrong with her priorities. Anyone who questioned her priorities was wrong and probably crazy.

Yep Tex ...you got what I was saying.

So what difference does it make whether he goes or not?  It makes no difference.  He is an addict.  He is a workaholic.  He takes no responsibility for his crappy behaviour.  Going to Italy is not going to wake this man up...nor is it going to prove his committment to his family.

Carol, I caution you about making a decision on your future with your H based on a trip.  If you do, you are still making a decision based on your H's action/inaction.  Make a decision for yourself that does not rely on a response/action/something (?) from your H.  Make a choice for you.

Kara

Editted to add:  Why is this trip a dealbreaker?  Is it because it prolongs the inevitable (leaving your H)?  Is it because (if he doesn't go) you take this as a major slap in the face to you and the kids?  Carol - IMHO you have been slapped more times than I care to remember by this man.  Is this your attempt to control a situation that you haven't yet had any control over?  I would put my energy into something far more constructive if I were you.  Someone else told you that you have every right to get the hell out of this marriage...and I understand the need to give yourself time to gain some confidence in order to do this....but I can't understand why it seems to hinge on a trip.

>>> By having everything in his name he feels he has control and power over all of it, including me. <<<

I understand. In my marriage, most things were in both our names but a few years ago I my opened a checking account in my name. My husband was not happy about that. We’d always had a joint account but I decided to open my own and have my paycheck deposited into it. I told him I was going to use it to pay for groceries, any personal things I needed, and the monthly tuition bills for our son. I wasn’t stashing it away to use for myself. But it really drove a wedge between us and I talked to my counselor about it. He said “He has no control over it and that’s why it bothers him. You’re declaring your autonomy and he feels threatened.” Until then I hadn’t really realized that’s what I was doing. But the truth was that I felt like he didn’t value the financial contribution I was making because I made so much less than him. In a way, I was saying “See, this is what I’m worth.” I wanted him to acknowledge that my little paycheck mattered and that the work I did mattered. It probably won’t surprise you to know that a few months later, when he got a rather large settlement check for a car accident we were in, he opened an account in his name and deposited the money there. I walked away from the battle he wanted to draw me into. The power struggles never end but my willingness to engage in them did.

>>> he is not invested in the relationship...it is not a partnership.<<<

You’re right - it's not a partnership. He doesn’t need to be invested in the relationship because you’re doing all the relationship work. When you’ve got your blood, sweat and tears invested in something, you nurture it and you care for it. He’s nurturing something Carol, but it’s not you is it? What is it that's getting all his attention and energy? He doesn’t have to give anything to this relationship because it’s giving him everything he needs with the most minimal effort on his part.

>>>Am I wrong? <<<

NO!!!

>>> If so please tell me...what am I missing here? I am really asking, not being sarcastic. Sometimes I need someone to say litterally what they mean and what may be obvious to others but not to me. Yes, I am that unsure of myself...that unsure that my instincts, opinions, and thoughts are wrong. I question myself most of the time. <<<

Carol, I don’t think you’re unsure at all. I think you’re hoping you’re wrong; but you’re not. You’re not missing anything here except the confidence to trust yourself. What I see when I read your posts is a smart, insightful, caring person who wants to hold her family together but is questioning the price she has to pay to do that. That’s good. You can’t find the answers until you’ve asked the questions. None of us here have the right to tell you what your answers should be. Only you can decide what’s best for you. It sounds like you have a good counselor and I hope he helps you find the answers you’re looking for. We’ll help too, if we can.

DG

DG - I liked your last post. Several things jumped out at me including these:
 
>>What I see when I read your posts is a smart, insightful, caring person who wants to hold her family together but is questioning the price she has to pay to do that. That’s good.<<

>>The power struggles never end but my willingness to engage in them did<<

Folks, there usually isn't a "deal-breaker". A couple of years ago now, Quinn wrote an excellent post about coming to the point of leaving his marriage and his main point was that it was no one thing. Rather, it was the process of awakening himself and discovering his own truth (instead of the distorted picture his wife was giving him). And for Quinn, one day, it cost more to stay than to go.

Carol, it is for this very reason that I have consistently urged you NOT to focus on anything about your husband beyond what is happening right now. Not the car, not the trip.

Look at things the way they are right now, today, and start deciding if that is the way you want to live the rest of your life, and if that is how you want your children to grow up. To simplify matters considerably, accept that you have but two choices: stay with him exactly as he is today (and stop complaining), or throw him out. Your counselor has already validated your feelings and agrees with you about his behavior. So now it's all on you. You already know how hard it is on you to stay, EVERY DAY. If you throw him out, it will be very hard in a different way...for a while. But that does eventually end.

Good luck.

Chris.

Carol, when I read your posts I see so much of my life in what you write. I suppose I was "lucky" in that my H came right out and said "Take it or leave it" meaning he had no intention of behaving any differently. So far I have taken it, my own issues I suppose but I have managed to detach to the point he doesn't push my buttons much anymore. Of course the pitfall there is that I have developed indifference for most aspects of our relationship.

Like your H, my H has some very good qualities. My H can be very charming. As long as the discussion is about current events, or our jobs, or other people we can have quite entertaining conversations. But anything resembling intimacy is off limits. Any discussion of our relationship, or disagreements about money, or why he no longer will have sex with me, or anything like that just results in verbal abuse towards me or complete silence.

However I will relay this incident tonight to show that WS who don't work on getting it, don't ever get it. Our son has autism and as such communication and social relationships are huge issues. He has an excellent memory however. He was 7 at d-day and is now 14. Now that he has much more language and social insight he tries to process events that have happened in the past by talking about them.

My H took my D and him along on outings with the OW and her kids. For some reason tonight my son started asking about some of the places they went at dinner. My H's reaction is to tell him don't talk about it, forget about it, I don't want to talk about it. Same way he always talked to me. My H even got up and left the table. So I went to him and told him that I didn't think it was fair for him to leave it to me to discuss his OW with our son. And that since I wasn't on their outings I can't really help my son process what happened. And that it is a good thing for my son to try to process past events. So now he is all mad and not speaking to me.

To me it just shows that my H has never, in seven years, tried to come to terms with what happened and why. I'm not even triggered by the thought of them going places together, it is more that my H has had done no work to try to understand himself, and wants to control what everyone else thinks about too. And he continues to care more about his own comfort than our son's well-being.

Sorry to tangent like that. What I am trying to say is that Chris is right. This is the way it will be. Can you take it or will you leave it? You don't have to decide the rest of your life today but you also don't want to tolerate the intolerable forever.

One more thing. I have actually asked my H for a divorce. I have told him I don't love him any more, don't want to live with him and don't want to be married to him. He refuses to discuss it and has told me he will make it as difficult as he can for me. Next step is to find out my legal options but I am just not up for an ugly battle at this point and I can't put my kids through that. Just be careful, control freaks WILL NOT give up control easily.

Take care,

Love, --Rosie

Wow Carol

I also really like your C. I am so glad you found one that dealt with addictions. Mine had also dealt with them and she was incredible. What Q said was so true!

"So he is helping me to really see how I view my H . My H is abusive but I couldnt admit that to myself...not until I dealt with my childhood issues of abuse"

I never had childhood abuse but I still couldn't admit my ex was abusive either. I'm not sure he was all the time but there were many times I can think of now that would fall under an abuse label.

"But all of you saw how abusive my H was in my writing here on the board long before I recognized it myself."

Know what Carol? We saw it because many of us have "lived" it, sadly.

"Without the help of my C those blinders would still be on."

I understand that statement because the things my C said back then really got through to me too.

"if he does go only because we will actually have a chance to talk and be together without the pizzeria to distract him."

I'm going to be blunt here Carol because you've asked for it above. I honestly don't believe he will go either but who am I to guess that? Has he found someone to run shop while he's gone yet? Trained anyone? Do you think he'll close it for a week?

"NOTHING HAS MY NAME ON IT, NOTHING! You may draw your own conclusion.."

Is doesn't matter what does or does not have your name on it for divorce purposes in most states. If you've acquired the assets while you were married, most states will divide them equally unless there are other circumstances. If he has his name on these assets before the marriage and can prove that they were only his before you got married then those are the ones that can hurt you. It does sound like some control issues but I honestly don't think that will hurt you if you feel the need to end your marriage. The good thing is that while a court will divide your assets, his name is on them and he will be responsible for the payments for them until things are split. That is good because if he cares about his credit he will pay even if YOU are driving that new car. The other thing I think is good is that since your H seems to think his livelyhood is the pizzaria and pot, you may be able to work it for spousal support for you and child support for the children, let him keep the pizzaria, and you keep the house if there is any money in it. In other words, you can get support b/c then he'll still have a job and you can keep the house. I know I don't know the full details of your financial situation but if you have some equity that could be a great arguing point and a way to ensure you get spousal support as well.

There are so many options that if you feel the need to chat to someone about it, feel free to ask for my number. I went through a lot of laws on division of assets when I was going through our separation and there are lots of options where you think there aren't. I've thought of several other scenarios for you if you don't have equity in your home.

Charlie

There have been lots of excellent posts on this thread.

I think this one should get a "Thread of the Month" award

charlie

Rosie

I want to reply to things you've said about your son. See "Rosie" post.

Charlie

Wow!  I am overwhelmed by all of the responses. You have all given me a lot of support and much to think about.  Thank you.

<<Folks, there usually isn't a "deal-breaker". A couple of years ago now, Quinn wrote an excellent post about coming to the point of leaving his marriage and his main point was that it was no one thing. Rather, it was the process of awakening himself and discovering his own truth (instead of the distorted picture his wife was giving him). And for Quinn, one day, it cost more to stay than to go.>>

I have to agree with you Chris.  Through the process of IC I believe I have been awakened. I believe I am developing the ability to see the truth, not how I wished it was, but how things really are. 

However, for some people there are absolute "deal breakers".  These are usually people with more rigid boundaries, who give no second chances...once you cross the line the marriage is over, period, end of story. They know what they will tolerate and what they wont and they will not settle for anything less.  I know 100% for sure if I had been the one to stray I would be sitting on the side of the road. 

<<Look at things the way they are right now, today, and start deciding if that is the way you want to live the rest of your life, and if that is how you want your children to grow up.>>

I understand what you are saying here Chris.  It is really hard to give up on the hope that H will change some day.  But I cant base the rest of my life on a hope, on a dream that may never become a reality.  How true!  I think I am looking for more hope than there is if H went on the vacation.  I was hoping it would be a good sign if he did...that it would some how validate sticking around a little longer.  Can't keep having all those "what if" scenarios spinning around in my head, just adding confusion to an already painful decision that needs to be made.

 <<To simplify matters considerably, accept that you have but two choices: stay with him exactly as he is today (and stop complaining), or throw him out. >>

Me! Complain? Never!!! You must be talking about some one else   Kidding aside, for a long time both choices have seemed equaly bad to me..one just as miserable as the other, keeping me totally stuck in ambivalence.  But now that I am seeing things more clearly, my choices become more clear as well.  Kindof funny how that works too!

<<Your counselor has already validated your feelings and agrees with you about his behavior. So now it's all on you. You already know how hard it is on you to stay, EVERY DAY. If you throw him out, it will be very hard in a different way...for a while. But that does eventually end.>>

As many people have pointed out to me, I have every right to leave the marriage without feeling any guilt.  But why do I still feel guilty?  Why am I still afraid?  And why do I still have feelings for this man?  Everyone tells me that eventually I will feel better, not just about myself but about life.  That is one heck of a leap of faith! And I will admit I am scared to jump. I am trying to embrace that fear and get over it.  C is really helping me there...getting myself ready for whatever happens, and taking care of ME.  I have to say that feels good...to feel that I have some control over my life...over my future.

Take care...Carol~

 

That was my turning point Carol....realizing I had control again over my life and my destiny.

 <<Addications are labeled so because they have a negative impact on the addicts life. That's how an addict recognizes its a problem...a negative impact to THEM personally. After all the blame-shifting and excuses of course.

Everything seems to be status quo for your H...hence no problem.

The kids deserve more than a stoned parent and you deserve more than a stoned H. He's not going to see a problem until it effects HIM.

What are your thoughts?>>

Tex,

My thoughts? I tend to agree with you there.  H has suffered no consequences for his actions, and in fact, doesnt see any problem with anything he has done.  Yes, the addictions always win....sad but true.  Some one said it's also like that Dr Phil saying "you cant change what you dont acknowledge".  H acknowledges nothing, therefor nothing changes.

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<<One more thing. I have actually asked my H for a divorce. I have told him I don't love him any more, don't want to live with him and don't want to be married to him. He refuses to discuss it and has told me he will make it as difficult as he can for me. Next step is to find out my legal options but I am just not up for an ugly battle at this point and I can't put my kids through that. Just be careful, control freaks WILL NOT give up control easily.>>

Wow Rosie,

Thank you for all of your insight and for sharing your very powerful story with us, including your son.  You are such a special lady. My prayers are with you.

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<<Sorry to be so negative, but after my own experiences in the past week all I see are the excuses I made for my H's behavior when there really is no excuse. It's not enough to just say you love someone and want to save your relationship. You have to really mean it and be willing to make your actions follow those words. For your sake, I hope your WS is willing to do that. >>

Hey DB,

I have also made excuses for the inexcusable. I believe that you are right.  Actions speak louder than words.  I guess it's about time maybe I stop talking and just do what I feel I need to do...H isnt listening anway.  C said that H is in such denial that H would be shocked if I told him to leave.  Who knows...

I am sorry you are having such a hard time too  ((((hugs)))

Take Care.....Carol~

<<I've seen the pot- withdrawal and know it's a monster.>>

Thanks for the warning Monica.
___________________________________

<<Stop waiting for him and worse yet his addication to decide how your life is going to go.

Go on the trip and have a good time. It's your life...live it.>>

Tex (aka Dr. Phil)

Now that's a line...a good line...no, a very, very good line! 

_____________________________________

<<I don't think you're wrong. As you may remember, my X was addicted to alcohol. She was committed to that partnership. Everything else was secondary although she couldn't say so. It was a secret, even to herself (except perhaps on rare occasions). She had invested enormous amounts of energy convincing herself (and anyone who would listen) that she was fine and that there was nothing wrong with her priorities. Anyone who questioned her priorities was wrong and probably crazy.>>

This is so true!  They make you feel you are the crazy one. You are the one who needs to "lighten up". EXACTLY!

Thanks Quinn...........................Carol~

 

<<So what difference does it make whether he goes or not?  It makes no difference.  He is an addict.  He is a workaholic.  He takes no responsibility for his crappy behaviour.  Going to Italy is not going to wake this man up...nor is it going to prove his committment to his family.>>

Kara,

I guess I am actually hoping that if he goes that would prove that he can actually leave the pizzeria and it will still be standing when he gets back, that nothing BAD happened while he was gone, lol.  Also, I was hoping it would help him reconnect and bond with me and the kids and he would actually give a crap about us.  For me as a kid, that's what going on vacation meant to me.  Maybe it's the kid still in me that has some shred of hope left. Plus, I thought also he could see that he will survive LIFE without the pot.  C told me that H cannot have one without the other, the pot and the pizzeria and innertwined for him.  So my thought is to get him as far away from the pizzeria and the pot as I can and see what happens.  Maybe it is a bad idea but I have tried everything else, I figured one more shot couldnt hurt at this point. 

There's a book title for you "The Pot and the Pizzeria" or "The Pizzeria and the Pot", lol hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

<<Carol, I caution you about making a decision on your future with your H based on a trip.  If you do, you are still making a decision based on your H's action/inaction.  Make a decision for yourself that does not rely on a response/action/something (?) from your H.  Make a choice for you.>>

Awhhhhh!  There is the key!  This is where having my self confidence and trusting myself comes in. Did you read what Quinn wrote about living with an addiction? You question everything about yourself, you go by ques the addict gives, and the addict is telling you that you are the one with the problem, the one who is crazy...your self esteem, self worth, and self confidence gets erroded...making even small decisions for yourself becomes a major issue.  That's where IC comes in. He is really helping me to trust myself.  I am getting there.

HERE ARE SOME QUOTES FROM QUINN:

I had the same experience - questioning myself most of the time. I never seemed to be able to figure out if I was seeing things accurately. I think there were several reasons for that. My (then) wife was probably the person who I would usually touch base with to check whether my radar was working. Unfortunately, she was AWOL.

Living with an addiction is hard on radar. It's not that the radar screen goes blank one day. Rather, objects sometimes show up on the radar screen that aren't really there. Large objects that are nearby sometimes don't show up at all. Partly, that was because my (then) wife had good reason for not wanting to see my radar working smoothly. More importantly, I did too.

<<Why is this trip a dealbreaker?  Is it because it prolongs the inevitable (leaving your H)?  Is it because (if he doesn't go) you take this as a major slap in the face to you and the kids?  Carol - IMHO you have been slapped more times than I care to remember by this man.  Is this your attempt to control a situation that you haven't yet had any control over?  I would put my energy into something far more constructive if I were you.  Someone else told you that you have every right to get the hell out of this marriage...and I understand the need to give yourself time to gain some confidence in order to do this....but I can't understand why it seems to hinge on a trip.>>

Well, like I stated above, the trip was a lot about hope. But it was alot about reality and trying to set a deadline for myself. And even a little bit about the slap in the face as you say it....the last straw so to speak.  That if he chooses not to go it is that last push that sends you over the edge of no return.  Does that make any sense? Back to teh deadline...a long time ago I was told by many people to set a deadline in my head on how long I am willing to wait for H to "wake-up".  I chose the date of the trip.  When the date of the trip came I could either re-evaluate things and decide what to do, or stick to the plan and just leave.  If he goes, well, then maybe I should re-evaluate. If he doesnt go, there's nothing to re-evaluate...time to go!  But still, if I am not ready to go then I dont have to go. So it was just a date I was shooting for and using as a timetable and a ray of hope.  I hope that made some sense.

Take care...Carol~

EDITED TO ADD:

Something in my gut or my mind is telling me that this trip has some purpose or special meaning whether H goes or not...a signifigant life change is on the horizon...maybe full awakening. I dont know.  All I do know is that the trip has meaning.  Ever feel that way about something...and no matter what that feeling just kept gnawing away at you?  That's what I am feeling....right or wrong, the feeling is there.

<<You’re right - it's not a partnership. He doesn’t need to be invested in the relationship because you’re doing all the relationship work. When you’ve got your blood, sweat and tears invested in something, you nurture it and you care for it. He’s nurturing something Carol, but it’s not you is it? What is it that's getting all his attention and energy? He doesn’t have to give anything to this relationship because it’s giving him everything he needs with the most minimal effort on his part.>>

C has told me the same thing. That's why in H's eyes everything is OK.  C asked me "is your H even aware that there's a problem?" I said "yes, because I tell him there's a poblem" C says "but you husband in unable to see it, even though you tell him there's a problem, because he's not living it".  So true, so true, so true!

<< >>>Am I wrong? <<<

NO!!!>>

Thank you..it always feels good to have your feelings validated by someone else, especially someone has "been there"  


<<Carol, I don’t think you’re unsure at all. I think you’re hoping you’re wrong; but you’re not. You’re not missing anything here except the confidence to trust yourself. What I see when I read your posts is a smart, insightful, caring person who wants to hold her family together but is questioning the price she has to pay to do that. That’s good. You can’t find the answers until you’ve asked the questions.>>

WOW!  DG, very powerful for me...yes, I am questioning the price I am paying...I feel like I have prostituted myself out to my H....that I have given up so much of who I am to be with him  and why?  Because he is the man I chose to marry, the father of my children, and I thought the love of my life.  How did it all go so horribly wrong?  There are so many others to consider besides myself that most of this time I have not even considered myself in all of this until now, until I started seeing my new C.  That's when I became important in all this.  I have finally allowed myself to have meanining....and to say that I deserve better! I deserve to be happy.  I matter....

 <<It sounds like you have a good counselor and I hope he helps you find the answers you’re looking for. We’ll help too, if we can. >>

Thank you...all of you have helped more than I can say. And I really feel my C is doing a great job...the answers are getting clearer each and every day......

Take care.....Carol~

<<I also really like your C. I am so glad you found one that dealt with addictions. Mine had also dealt with them and she was incredible.>>

Thanks Charlie.  My new C has made all of the difference.  I think him being an addictions C has benefited me greatly.


<<"But all of you saw how abusive my H was in my writing here on the board long before I recognized it myself."

Know what Carol? We saw it because many of us have "lived" it, sadly.

"Without the help of my C those blinders would still be on."

I understand that statement because the things my C said back then really got through to me too.>>

Again Charlie, validation from those who have been there.  It is so important to me.  It builds my self confidence and I know I am not crazy, that I am right on the mark, that my instincts are good 


<<"if he does go only because we will actually have a chance to talk and be together without the pizzeria to distract him."

I'm going to be blunt here Carol because you've asked for it above. I honestly don't believe he will go either but who am I to guess that? Has he found someone to run shop while he's gone yet? Trained anyone? Do you think he'll close it for a week?>>

If we go it would be for two weeks!  How about that? LOL. There is no way H would give up any type of control and "let" some one else run things while he's gone.  There are only two options in his head, go and close, or dont go mand stay open.  Which will he choose? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.  Any one wish to place a bet?  The odds are he wont go, but he has been known to surprise people every now and then and actually live a little...so who knows?

<<There are so many options that if you feel the need to chat to someone about it, feel free to ask for my number. I went through a lot of laws on division of assets when I was going through our separation and there are lots of options where you think there aren't. I've thought of several other scenarios for you if you don't have equity in your home.>>

Thank you for the offer Charlie.  Our division of assets would be quite complicated.  I couldnt even begin to tell you, and have no idea where to begin!  And with H for sure, it is all about control.

Take Care..............Carol~ 

Carol

I think I understand where you are at this time - and I hope when the trip date comes around you'll be ready. Ready to face: spending times with his family in a foreign country for you, pretending to be happy if your H does not join the family or even if he does etc... etc...the children will be going that is not negotiable.... but what about you?

I do not want to sound negative... what are the 'chances' or odds that your H will be going with his family?? Are you waiting for the trip to look at your options? I know I am a "front loader" in other words I look at all the possible options at the start of a project and if option one is not working I know how to reach for option #2. My ducks are lined up knowning that I could change and interchange them if neeeded.

In other words... between now and the trip you may have to do a lot of homework such as being familiar with your state family laws, opening your own bank account, checking your credit rating and opening your own credit card ... Carol, start thinking "pratical", hope is wonderful "thing" but like 'luck' it is something which rarely lands on one's head by accident....listen and hear when opportunity knocks at your door and be ready for it. MHO

I am also concerned about what your children may be learning at this time and you may be the one called to stop those learned family behaviors.... would you like your son(s) as adults to treat the mother of their children the same way you are being treated now??? if it's good enough for you and your H now... why couldn't be enough for them when the time comes?? Do you have a daughter? what is she learning??

I have so many other areas I would like to approach with you but I choose not to.

And as you walk you make your path Kat

Carol, like Charlie, I want to stress that many of us have "been there". We've been flexible when maybe more rigidity would have been better. We offered second chances. We excused more than one inexcusable behavior. We took unbelieveable "stuff" without realizing its name(s): crazymaking and abuse. In many cases it took others on this board to help us see that very clearly. (Has anyone ever YELLED at you while you were calmly explaining something "WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY???" Crazymaking AND abuse in the same moment!)

Like Kat, I want to say "I see" a whole lot better now where you're coming from. I, too, had set a date certain. While my son was in 7th grade I made clear that the end of high school would mean the end of our marriage if things hadn't improved. One risk of doing that with a control freak is that he or she will take action before that...and make it a sneak attack. That's what happened to me.

Carol, there are people here who've been through all of the three or four outcomes that you might face: your H makes a sudden (or eventual) turnabout, your marriage drags on the way it is, or you divorce.

What I care most about is that YOU get the help YOU need for yourself and your kids. Your counselor sounds like a gem, and the experienced people here can certainly share the wisdom we've gained through both good and bad experiences.

Thank you Chris

Take care..............Carol~