<<I asked him if it would mean anything if H decided to go on the trip to Italy with us this summer? He said "H isnt going to go". I said he shows interest and seems to want to go. He said "but he still wont go...he has to leave the pizzeria and he cant bring the pot with him on the plane, so why would he want to go?" >>
Today during Sunday dinner at the in-laws, H's mom asked my H if he is going to Italy. She said we need to get the tickets soon and she needs to know. He said "yeah, right, Im going" very sarcasticly to her. I said "you are going" and he didnt say anything else. His mom said to him "it's only for two weeks, and your sister and her family want to go to", then she continued to outline where we were going and how long we would stay at each place. His brother said he cant go because he will be in school (he recently went back to college). So it's not like his brother will watch the pizzeria if he has to go to school and H doesnt want to close. So H would have to close if he chooses to go....something he has only done once in the 14 years since we have had the pizzeria.
My question is, do I bring out the big guns and issue an ultimatum? Do I tell him exactly what him going and not going means to me? He knows it means a lot to the kids and his parents. H will be turning 40 in a few months and his mom wanted to do this trip in his honor and for him as a birthday present. Also, our oldest is turning 16 in 2 months and this is their last chance to connect. So it's not just a slap in the face to me and the kids if he doesnt go, it's also a slap in the face to his parents, and even his sister. Honestly, I dont know how someone can not want to go, especially when it means so much to everyone he claims to love. Originally I said I would not pressure H to go, that I would just ask him to go and he could make up his own mind. But C said that I should tell H exactly what the trip means to me (and everyone elses) because if it's important for me for H to go then H should be willing to go. But C knows H has those nagging addictions and no matter how much H wants to go, he just wont be able to do it.
I think it was Tex who said the addictions will always win. I think you're right Tex.....even if it means losing his family....and I dont mean just me and the kids, I mean ALL of them <sigh> Just trying to get some thoughts about this because I am not sure what I should do.
Take care...Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 6, 2007 2:11 PM
If you can express it strictly in terms of how much it means to you personally, then I'd give it one more shot. I would leave everyone else out of your explanation, especially his extended family, and focus on what you and your children want: you want him to go, to spend time with the family away from the pizzeria, to enjoy the rich heritage of his family's roots. I would not try to engage him in any other way...no leading questions, no back and forth, no dire predictions of total disconnection from his family. Just BOOM, tell him how important it is to you and the kids, and then stop.
He still has the right and the responsibility to make up his own mind.
You have the right and responsibility to watch what he does and to make your own decisions. You do not have the right to engage in emotional blackmail, pleading, cajoling, or threatening negative consequences if he makes a choice you don't like. You were on the right track: let him make up his own mind, and everyone live with the consequences of that choice.
<<<My question is, do I bring out the big guns and issue an ultimatum?>>>
What exactly IS the ultimatum and will you follow through with it?
Obviously we can't tell you what to do, only what we think we would or did do.
If it were me I'd just be blunt. "We're going to Italy. It would mean alot to me for such and such reasons. I think/feel this is our last chance to reconnect or however you want to say it. Do you want to spend time with me and the kids on vacation or not?" I really would just turn it into a yes or no answer. "Are you going or not?" He's been given plenty of time to make arrangements so do the reasons why really matter? If he says no I'd book the tickets and drop it. Have a great time and when you get back decide what you want to do from there.
Carol are you scared to go without him because he cheated the last time you left on vacation? Is it triggering you? I'm a stubborn asshole so that would just make me more determined to go. I considered it "breaking free."
Much Regards,
Tex
Edited: typos
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Mar 26, 2006 9:39 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Mar 26, 2006 9:34 PM
Thank you Chris and Tex for the advice. You pretty much said what I was thinking. Just tell him how much it means to me and the kids and let him make up his own mind.
<<Carol are you scared to go without him because he cheated the last time you left on vacation? Is it triggering you? >>
Yes, I am afraid he will cheat if I go without him, just like last time and yes it is triggering me. Any excuse or opportunity to cheat and I am handing it to him on a silver platter. And I dont know why the hell I am crying as I write this
Hi Carol. I've been following your story a little bit. Your relationship with your H reminds me so much of mine with my former H.
Consider this: he goes to Italy "under duress." He goes because of threats or "nagging" or trying to stave off an ultimatum that he's not ready for (anyone deep in their addiction is never "ready" for an ultimatum, IMO). If this is the case, do you think that he'd be pleasant company? Toward the end of my, uh, "marriage" (term used loosely), I tried desparately to reconnect with H. Once he left me at a resort hotel just a few hours after we arrived-- not just any hotel, but the one that we had stayed in on our honeymoon 6 years prior-- no reason given, he just left me stranded there with no car. Didn't come back either. I had to find my own way home the next morning. Another time I wanted him to "reconnect" with his family and go to our local amusement park. That was horrible too -- he didn't talk to me and consistently walked 6-8 feet in front of me -- he even made the kids sad. (I found out later he was having some sort of issue with one of his friennnnnnnds.)
If I were in your place, I wouldn't say another word about it to him. Is his mother the one buying the airline tickets? Great. She can deal with his little games. You can make plans to enjoy the trip with your children either way...... Wish I could go with you. Last time I was there was 1986...eons ago. As Tex says, just "get your California butt on that plane!" Don't worry about your husband's butt.
Jean
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 26, 2006 11:53 PM This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 26, 2006 11:49 PM
"My question is, do I bring out the big guns and issue an ultimatum? Do I tell him exactly what him going and not going means to me?"
I honestly don't know what that will accomplish. Say he goes, do you still want to live like you are now when you get back? Is the ultimatum going to do any good? It seems you have reason to believe that it won't accomplish anything at this point.
"He knows it means a lot to the kids and his parents"
Your right, he does know it. I'm willing to bet he also knows it is important to you. Haven't you said anything already about wanting him to go?
I agree with everyone else. Just tell him it is important to you again and let it at that. At least this way you can have a good time on vacation instead of thinking about what you will do when you get back. I know that would ruin the vacation for me if I had to think about sorting out a D when I got back.
Charlie pretty much covered what I was thinking as I read your post. Even if he goes what does that really prove? If he goes because he feels badgered into it by you, then he's going to be the same husband he was before the trip once you've returned home. You're not really in a different place at that point other than you've gone to Italy together.
If he genuinely wanted to go in order to please you and prove to you that he's willing to work on this marriage then that would be a different thing. But I think he's already telling you loud and clear that he's not willing to work on the marriage, or to please you. I believe that deep down your husband knows what he should be doing, but he's choosing not to do it. I can't pretend to know what his reasons are, only he knows that. It's up to you to decide what YOU want to do with that information.
IMO there never seems to be any consequences for your husband's behavior towards you (or anyone else for that matter) so he feels no need to change. You set limits and he doesn't seem to adhere to them. That says to me that he thinks he can pretty much do what he wants and get away with it. Carol, I've been there done that. For many years I was left unchecked by my husband. And I was a very selfish person. I just continued to take advantage of him until he finally stood up and said.......you aren't going to treat me that way anymore. That got my attention. I had the choice to either change my behavior in order to keep him, or risk losing him. Only your husband knows which road he'd pick in that scenario. But with nothing changing from you, then it's my guess nothing will ever change with your husband.
I hope you can go on your trip and enjoy it. My guess is that even if he goes he'll find a way to ruin it for you. With that in mind it might be best to just leave him alone and go without him.
<<But with nothing changing from you, then it's my guess nothing will ever change with your husband. >>
This part is not true GT. I have changed a lot. I stand up for myself more than I ever have and I react to situations with him a lot more differently than I did before. I am truly trying. I know I still have more work to do. However it is true that HE may not change no matter how I change. But I will tell you, the last time we went into the hot tub, he didnt light up. So maybe he did get the message when I walked out (instead of flipping out) of the hot tub the last time. I never reacted that way before. What's the worse thing that can happen? He leaves me. I have lost a lot of that fear
I have planned on going with or without H to Italy from day one. So me and the children will be going no matter what happens. Like Tex said, this is a big trigger for me. The last time I went on a vacation without him (me, the kids, my sister & her kids) he cheated on me. I really feel he started cheating to get back at me, but it took on a life of it's own. H will act like it's just fine that I went without him but inside he will resent me, just like the last time.
Whenever I stick up for myself he is like "I'll show her" and then he does something to hurt me, so I would back down. He has this nasty little passive-agressive attitude. He will tell me "go ahead without me dear, and have a good time" but what he's really feeling inside is "that ungrateful b_tch, going on vacation and spending all of MY money while I slave in this hell hole all summer. How dare she. F_ck her!". I know, I shouldn't write stuff like that...I have no idea what he's really thinking. It's not that I am a mind reader, but this is the attitude he gives me. He will throw little fits and expect me try to make it up to him....in other word he will expect me to kiss his a$$ when I get back. But it isnt going to happen this time. And if he cheats then he knows it's over.
I understand what you're saying. Thank you for the advice ladies
As I was writing this something silly just popped into my head. My H bought this pin that says "thank you for not being perky" and I told him that I feel that is such a slap in the face to me because I am always perky. Just ask the customers, they always tell me Im perky and happy. Even if H went and was miserable, it would be hard for him to bring me down. Us perky people can pretty much have a good time no matter what! And that's what I plan on doing...having a good time with or without him
Hi Carol. How about if I turn your last statement around.... How about: "And if he cheats then I knows it's over."
I know that it's hard to keep the focus on yourself when he is causing you so much pain, but try not to attempt to figure out what he will know ("he'll know it's over") and when or if he'll know it.
<<Whenever I stick up for myself he is like "I'll show her" and then he does something to hurt me, so I would back down.>> That right there, if done on a consistent basis, is breaking the marriage vows, IMO. Regular, Judeo-Christian marriage vows state that he is to LOVE and to CHERISH you. Are you loved and cherished? Do you feel wanted? Or do you feel tolerated? (I ask because most of my marriage I felt tolerated, and that was on a good day.)
Say he doesn't go on vacation, and yet you find no concrete evidence of another infidelity. But still he behaves the same unloving way toward you. What then?
<<How about: "And if he cheats then I knows it's over." >>
You are right Jean, I will know it's over!
<<Are you loved and cherished? Do you feel wanted? Or do you feel tolerated? (I ask because most of my marriage I felt tolerated, and that was on a good day.)>>
Most of the time I feel tolerated, sad but true. As long as I'm a "good girl" he will put up with me and buy me things. Even if he does love me he just wouldnt allow himself to show it. Just like he wants to go on vacation but just cant leave his precious pizzeria. He cannot be preceived as having any type of weakness.
<<Say he doesn't go on vacation, and yet you find no concrete evidence of another infidelity. But still he behaves the same unloving way toward you. What then? >>
I keep going to therapy until I am strong enough on my own that it wont matter one way or the other. I am pretty close to that already. If he doesnt go that's just one more mark against him...one more promise that he just couldnt keep....one step closer to the door. I guess I need a ton of bricks to fall on my head!!!
Jean said<<<Hi Carol. How about if I turn your last statement around.... How about: "And if he cheats then I knows it's over." >>>
I absolutely agree.
<<<Today during Sunday dinner at the in-laws, H's mom asked my H if he is going to Italy. She said we need to get the tickets soon and she needs to know.>>>
If his mother is coordinating the trip then let him explain it to her if he decides not to go. I'd wash my hands of it and I wouldn't play "go-between" either.
"I'm not going."
"Tell your mother."
You get the drift.
<<<Just like he wants to go on vacation but just cant leave his precious pizzeria. >>>
Carol has he actually said this or are you attempting to read his mind again? Besides its not that he can or can not, its that he will or will not.
We could play "What if's and "maybe's and "could be's" till the cows come home.
Could be he's afraid to see the pizzeria got along just fine without him. Maybe he just doesn't want to go to Italy. You'll drive yourself insane guessing. Does it matter at this point? The bottom line is he knows its important to you and still refuses to go(if indeed he doesn't go). That's the jist of it.
Regards,
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Mar 27, 2006 12:12 PM
Naw, I think you've already been hit with the bricks -- it's just that the healing and building of your self-esteem after its been ripped to shreds takes time and work. But you're doing it!
Carol wrote>>This part is not true GT. I have changed a lot. I stand up for myself more than I ever have and I react to situations with him a lot more differently than I did before. I am truly trying. I know I still have more work to do>>
I know you are trying Carol. I didn't mean to imply in any way that you aren't and haven't in the past. I can see growth on your part in every post you write. So please forgive me if my words came across that way.
I guess what I was trying to say is your husband doesn't seem to believe that his lifestyle is threatened by any of the actions you have taken when dealing with him. My guess is he won't change anything but will push you to make the final move as to whether or not the two of you stay together.
I am having way too much anxiety over this. Everyone says what's the big deal if he goes or not? NO ONE GETS IT! It's just all of the broken promises, and vacations was one of those promises he just couldnt keep. And then there's the fact he spends no time with us, we need to spend time together but I just cant get through to this man. And on top of that there's the triggers....H cheated on me the last time I went on vacation without him. This is driving me crazy! There's just way too much for me to deal with. I cant take it anymore. I just want this man, for once, to keep his word, and to not disappoint his children and me! But he just doesnt care. He hurts so many people, but yet everyone thinks he's this good guy and that I shoudl be grateful for what I have. Being grateful got me cheated on...being loving and understanding got me cheated on...waiting up every friggin night for this man got me cheated on...making dinner at midnight got me cheated on...wearing sexy lingerie got me cheated on...loving this man with all my heart got me cheated on. I just cant win!!!!
I feel like I am beating my head against the wall and making no headway! Then I get in this freakin self pity mood! I hate that. Why me.....why cant my marriage work? What have I done so horrible in my life that I deserve this crap? Why doesnt my H love me? I must be some sort of piece of work if H prefers the pizzeria over my company, that he would rather get high than to be with me, and he would rather f_ck some low life piece of trash than respect our marriage vows. I do not figure into his life anywhere? What the hell is it going to take for me to get the f-ing message? I have a marriage in name only! Sure H still wants sex and he buys me things, sounds more like Im the mistress than the the wife....only there is nothing romantic about it, I am just a KEPT woman. I am here to raise his kids, clean his house, and serve him...that's all I am to him! Why? What the hell is wrong with me...why do I want to be with some one who obviously doesnt want to be with me? He tolerates me as long as I dont make waves. What kind of life is that? I am really begining to hate him and I cant get over the A. He's not doing anything to help me get over it...he just doesnt care that I am in such pain.
He's never going to get it and I know it but I cant face what that means, what that says about me....and the fact that it is all up to me. Why does it all lay on my shoulders when he is the one who cheated? I dont want to make the choice.....but yet a path has been chosen for me. Again, not what I want. I want my family to stay together but I will not be subjected to his abuse and lack of being able to show his love (if there is any). I cant go back to things being that way now that the blinders are off...I cant act like I dont know the truth any longer................that's what this is all about..............seeing the truth....facing the truth.............now, how do I live with the truth? Anyone?
Carol, his actions say something about HIM, nothing about you.
However, I have been on an anti-mindreading crusade ever since my ex-wife started saying about me some of the very things you say about your husband. She just KNEW what my motives were, and how I thought of her. Never mind that she was totally wrong. But there's the crazymaking part of it: I had to argue with her impressions of me, when only one of us knew the absolute truth (ME). That's NUTS!
Again, stick with what you see, and how you feel. Trying to glean his motives and his thoughts and his emotions is NOT good for you, for him, or for your marriage.
Now then...to turn this all around.
Doesn't your husband deserve someone who loves and adores and accepts him for who he is (just as you do)? You don't love and adore him and accept him for who he is any longer. You want him different, and he won't change for you, and that is the root of what's going on right now.
Isn't it time to set him free so he can find someone who will be the spouse he wants? It doesn't really matter if his wishes, wants, or desires are childish, immature, sinister, mean, nasty, or anything else. Why bang your head against that wall, indeed.
Accept reality, let go of your need to make him the person you want him to be. You can't do it. The only person you can make over is...you.
<<seeing the truth....facing the truth.............now, how do I live with the truth?>> One day at a time.... One foot in front of the other.... Sometimes I still have to get in that mode, not because of the broken marriage anymore but because of issues related to being a single mother with fibromyalgia. These are big truths that you are facing, and facing them takes a whole lot of courage. So hooray for you for having that courage and for making changes for how you want to live your life.
<<Why does it all lay on my shoulders when he is the one who cheated? I dont want to make the choice.....but yet a path has been chosen for me.>> Well, consider this.... you don't HAVE to make "the choice." You can continue as you are -- but realize that inaction or refusing to choose is also a choice. So I guess there really is no getting around the choosing. Fact is, both you and your husband have been making choices all along.
<<<Everyone says what's the big deal if he goes or not? NO ONE GETS IT! >>>
Trust me we all get it. No-one is saying it's not a big deal. Of course it is. We know it hurts. What we ARE saying is to live your life and stop waiting for him to change.
<<< He tolerates me as long as I dont make waves. What kind of life is that? >>>
You tell us. What kind of life is it?
<<< I dont want to make the choice.....but yet a path has been chosen for me>>>
Life is all about choices... you know this. Maybe not the ones we want too make. You ARE making a choice by not making one. Carol, this isn't so much about your marriage. Its about you choosing the direction your life will go. You should want control of that.
<<<that's what this is all about..............seeing the truth....facing the truth.............now, how do I live with the truth? Anyone?>>>
Perhaps by accepting the truth for starters. Have you really accepted it yet?
Carol -- I trust you will make the right choices for you when you are ready to make them, and I think that it's okay to vent all you want while you're getting ready to make them....and after you make them. I sense a lot of fear, pain and anger in your last post and I remember being there, so I just wanted to give you a hug again. (((Carol)))
Jean
P.S. I also think that all the other posts on this thread are really good! A lot of good questions for you to think about.
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 27, 2006 11:41 PM
I am just being really hard on myself right now. I need to stop that.
I tried to talk to H last night. I asked H "You didnt answer your mom yesterday. You are going to Italy, right?" He didnt answer. I then said "It would mean a lot to me and the kids if you went. The kids have been looking forward to this since last summer and they are expecting you to go, and so am I." He said "I dont want to go with my sister and her kids. After working for two years, I dont call that a vacation." I said "Well, yesterday was the first that I heard she wanted to go. Your mom has not bought the tickets yet and you can tell her how you feel. Maybe they can go another time since they just went a couple of years ago, or maybe they can meet us in Naples during the second week instead of starting out with us in Switzerland. But whether your sister goes or not should not influence your decision. The fact is you need to spend time with me and the kids. Dont you want to spend time with me and the kids?" No answer.
Basically he is using his sister going as just another excuse. Prior to this he had no excuses for not going except that he didnt want to close the pizzeria and lose money. That is a lame excuse because the trip is planned for our slowest part of the year...there are all kinds of festivals going on around us at that time that there are days where it is just a waste to even bother opening because we are so slow. He is just looking for reasons not to go. Maybe I will suggest in addition to meeting his sister in Naples after the first week, like Kath said, maybe he can just go on home after that and skip the second week. But I still think he will find fault with even that. But he hasn't said no yet....there may still be a ray of hope, but I am not counting on it. He knows how important this trip is to me and to the kids. It's hard for me to believe that he would still be that selfish and not even think twice about disappointing me and the kids, especially all he has put is through over the last several years. It hurts that we mean so little.
Thank you everyone for being there for me......Carol~
""""He knows how important this trip is to me and to the kids. It's hard for me to believe that he would still be that selfish and not even think twice about disappointing me and the kids, especially all he has put is through over the last several years. It hurts that we mean so little.""""
Exactly where do you see a ray of hope, that he doesn't have the courage to say no to you?
Carol- I've been on two trips to Europe in the last two years, and went alone. I knew my H wouldn't go with me because he didn't want to.
No matter how much you may WANT him to go, if he doesn't want to, there is nothing you can do to change his mind.
That's what I've learned about human behavior over the years, if someone truly wants to do something, they will DO it. No amount of persuasion, cajoling, or bribery will make them change their mind.
I wouldn't mention the trip to your H again. Forget about him going.
If you get s surprise then, great.
Wishing you all the best with your children on the trip. I love to travel alone or with my sons.
I burst into tears reading your post about how awful this all is, that nobody "gets it", wondering what all this says about you, and how it sucks to have to make this choice. You put into words all the things I've been feeling lately but couldn't quite get out. As for the post after that to the effect that you don't love and accept your H for who is anymore, but rather that you want him to change into being someone you love and respect, I think you would have the same response I do - that I want my H to be someone deserving of respect, that I want my H to go back to who he used to be when I did love and accept him for who he was.
disbelieving, unfortunately what you or what Carol wants isn't in the picture, and that's the gist of my post above.
You can't change your husbands.
You can't make 'em want to change.
You can't force, bribe, cajole, penalize, nag, or even encourage them to change if they don't want to.
For all intents and purposes, the spouse who used to be there is gone. The spouse you're dealing with is the one who's there today.
This part is often hard for anyone to hear or to imagine, but our spouses (or ex-spouses) DO have the same right as us to be accepted by someone for who they are, whether or not they "work on themselves" or prove anything to us. Imagine how unpleasant life would be for you if your spouse were demanding that YOU change into something you didn't want to be.
If we can't accept them, our only reasonable choice is to LET GO. Everything else leads to a horrible and tension-filled existence for both spouses. It took me nearly five years to learn that the hard way.
Letting go might mean a separation or a divorce, or it might mean sleeping in separate rooms and each conducting your own lives as roommates. The essence of it is disconnecting emotionally and not expecting anything in return.
Chris - you are of course correct that we cannot make anyone change. I guess what my hope has always been, and my purpose for working on my M, has been that H would decide he wanted to change - that he would decide he had taken the wrong road and want to come back to me and our life together. Yes, that is unrealistic, but it's always been the hope and that dream is very hard to give up on.
The thing here for me is, I accepted this man for 20 years just the way he was...made no demands on him to change until after the A. So I no longer accept him "as is"...he is damaged goods now. Who accepts a liar and a cheater and welcomes them with open arms into their life? We all deserve better than that. But if the cheater could stop cheating and lying and recommit to the relationship things could be fixed eventually. But I was tricked yet again...I believed the promises of a liar. Why? Because I was hoping he'd change and stop being a liar and cheat. If nothing changes, nothing changes. But I have changed. If I can change he can too. But he sees nothing wrong with who he has become. Lying, drugs, unprotected sex with OW, are part of who he is now. Apparently he likes it that way...and I dont. But why lie and say you'll change? Why give us false hope like that? It is a bit cruel if you ask me. So then we are the ones who have to makes the choice when we see that we have been lied to and decieved yet again, and for what purpose? Why didnt they just leave us? Obvioulsy they dont accept us for who we are, nor do they respect us (or themselves) with their continued lies. So why is it up to us to accept them or not...why did they offer to change and then not do it? If they are so unhappy with the marriage why even pretend to want to work things out...what does that accomplish? When I said my wedding vows I meant them...when I said on d-day that I wanted to work things out I meant it. I deserve the same courtesy and respect from him....Carol~
Allow me to put my 'professional' hat on for a second or two...
Is there someone in the family or a trusted friend who could TALK with him re. his possible Traumatic Brain Injury/Bruising? From the outside, his heratic behaviors/thinking/self-medicating may have their root in this incident/accident.
Carol, I said all that stuff you wrote above to my older and wiser brother-in-law when things were not good between my wife and me, before her affair.
He told me again and again that NO ONE has to do anything you want them to do, and you ALWAYS have the choice to live with what they choose (or to not live with it). You can't force someone else to change to suit you.
It doesn't matter what you think you deserve. It doesn't matter what you think he should do. It doesn't matter what you want from him. It doesn't matter what you think his motives are.
All that matters is that he is who he is and he does what he does and you can't force him to change if he doesn't want to. Your entire choice is to accept him as he is...or not.
I didn't listen to my brother-in-law then. I should have. It took more than five long and painful years to figure out that he was 100% right.
<<Carol- You most certainly deserve courtesy and respect from your H.>>
Thank you
<<I think what most of us are trying to say is you can demand it, but that doesn't mean you'll get it. >>
I have not demanded respect or much of anything up until now. I am now demanding respect because I respect myself a lot more. True, it doesnt mean that I'll get it. But if I dont stick up for myself and try who will? And even if I dont get it, at least I will still respect myself for trying and not just sitting around feeling sorry for myself. I am taking action and more control over my life and that feels good
<<It really is almost impossible to make someone do something they don't want to do, unless you hold a gun to their head. >>
It's funny though how I do a lot of things I really dont want to do, but I do alot of things because I respect others and their feelings and their needs. Most of the time I put others before myself. I am learning to take care of me, and then give to others. Something new for me. And when you're in a partnership such as marriage, what your spouse wants and needs should be important to you and you should be willing to compromise. The problem in my relationship is that it is more of a dictatorship...his way or the highway, no compromise. I am not willing to accept that any longer. What I am asking for is not unreasonable...two weeks in Italy, after 14 years with only 2 vacations and NO days off except major holidays. Hmmmmmmmmm...seems like a small price to pay to make your family happy. But it's all about him...he doesnt care if he disappoints me and the kids...but he should care, that's the point. We should be important to him. My C agrees. Still I cant make him go and I know that, but I can try to make him understand my point of view and how I feel, instead of just putting my tail between my legs and whimpering away. I am trying to fight for this relationship, this marriage, and to make it a partnership....I matter and I am letting him know that now.
<<<But it's all about him...he doesnt care if he disappoints me and the kids...but he should care, that's the point. We should be important to him.>>>
I think the point some of the posters are trying to make is yep you should be, but his actions in your eyes says that you are not important. Coming to acceptance that he doesn't care in the way you need/want him too. That's the point.
The title of this thread says it all. Italy or Bust. All or nothing? If you are having doubts about making a decision whether he goes or not...that's ok Carol. Its not written in stone. Like Chris I too moved my bottom line until I was standing at the edge of a cliff. In the end it was either jump or stand my ground. I chose to stand my ground while she wanted me to jump. You might not be at the edge of the cliff yet. That's all. And its ok.
You sound like you are growing stronger in who you are and want to be.
It seems like one of thsoe times that when we respect ourselves, we get the ultimate payoff.
I really hope your H recognizes and validates you. I would think that somewhere deep inside he will, but that maybe his pride or drug induced fog won't allow him to express it.
I considered it "breaking free." 
