>>I'm going to go back out on my limb and dangle like a pinata for the 2x4's here...
DISCLAIMER: I'm not making excuses for any WS's or man's behavior, I'm just throwing it out there from a "guy's" perspective...from MY perspective. If you think I'm projecting my own issues onto the majority of my gender, tell me so. I can take it.
About that "showing remorse" thing. This goes back to what I was trying to explain to Barbara about the Mars/Venus thing in dealing with fear in my post to her...
Some (probably most) men aren't good at showing remorse in the same way women are, or perhaps how you might want them to. We aren't programmed to break down, even when we see the pain in your eyes from the hurt we have caused. We tend to internalize it...that pit in the stomach feeling like we've just been kicked in the gut (or lower). We beat ourselves up without showing the world that we know we F'd up, and those of us who are particularly stubborn won't want to admit it openly. It sometimes tends to manifest itself in other ways...usually with the opposite affect that you might be hoping for, such as yelling at the kids, at you, at our coworkers, or worse. Some of us (not all of us) take out our own frustrations on the innocent...redirect the feelings into something else and onto someone else, because we are not taught that it's OK to express our feelings and still be a man. We unconsciously think that somebody has to pay, but it damned well won't be us. It's not an intentional thought process, it's merely a screwed up flaw in the way we operate. Showing remorse means you're showing vulnerability. Some (I daresay most) men are programmed from the start - and enabled by societal norms - to never show that depth of vulnerability, even when it's needed the most. It's frightening to us....the other feeling we aren't taught to deal with properly.
Again, THAT'S NO EXCUSE FOR THAT BEHAVIOR. Please don't think I'm condoning it. It's simply a reality for many men that is NOT RIGHT, and it actually results in being less of a man. It was for me. I had to learn that it wasn't right. It took a lot of pain and digging deep to open my eyes to it. This could be what your husband is going through right now.<<
I could not agree more strongly, Bob. This is a "guy" thing, not a WS thing.
From experience, I'll say it's very difficult for a betrayed man to get this...after all, our righteous wrath is completely justified! Some men learn this sooner, some later, some (apparently) never.
I didn't learn it in time, and my anger killed whatever respect, admiration, and love my wife might have had for me. It doesn't matter that it was "justified" because I was hurt and ignored and rejected, or because the only generally acceptable emotion for men to show in society is "anger", or because I was afraid of being vulnerable again and kept people away with anger. The person who came to these boards in 2001 was an angry, mean, bitter man.
I can safely say I am a different man today, and I am relieved that I don't have to live with those self-imposed constraints any longer. I have found some happiness, peace, and tolerance within myself and choose to nurture it. It will make my next intimate relationship much better. It is already making my friendships stronger.
Some of us can and do choose to change, ladies. There is hope!
hi chris, it is nice to see a man who sees and understands the things they do cause they are men
but hey there is another side, us girls do stuff that is just girls stuff that i know confuses the heck out of men and at times makes some us women realise, "god no wonder blokes dont understand us"
the classic female thing is " we dont do anything together", then the male offers a full list of activities to do together and the female says "i dont want to do those things" so the bloke is forever confused haha
i think both genders need to take responsibility for recognising things we girls and boys do, they are real, not good or bad, just different and at times, destructive.
the only way i personally deal with my girly stuff is to think, would i treat my friends this way, when i am giving hubby 'girly grief'. but then the second level of girly thinking kicks in which says " my girfriends would understand so it is ok" hahahhahha. but that when one needs to stop and cross the thin line to explain our stuff to a man, without betraying the sisterhood hahaha
hope all this makes sense. probably not, girls stuff doesnt make sense in the same way blokes stuff doesnt haha, but it can be fun finding out. if it takes too much energy to sort it out, just leave it haha.
hugs and congrats on your enlightenment
cheers
kath
Kath, you hit on some good things here. Sometimes it can be fun finding out if certain areas of conflict between men and women are just generic male/female differences, or if it's a personality trait. But then again it can be maddening if your female brain is thinking one thing and wondering why the heck your significant other can't see it the way you do.
I find the whole subject about how men define their "manhood" an interesting topic. For instance, I wasn't aware until I started posted on these boards that a man's career/job is such a huge thing for him when it comes to feeling like a man. But after reading what the various men have written I see that it's a much bigger deal that a man feel he's able to provide for his family, than I ever thought it was. And how a man views his successes and failures based on that.
The key difference in our house (and I suspect many out there) is that I react emotionally and expect my husband to do the same, where as he reacts to situations in a "thinking" manner. That used to leave us both frustrated because I didn't understand why he seemed to be without emotion and he didn't understand why I couldn't just think before reacting emotionally. I believed that was a gender thing, but I see more and more that's a personality type thing.
Chris
I've watched you struggle over the years with the whole bitterness/anger issues. But I've also seen a man who was willing to listen to what people had to say and put some serious thought into changes that needed to be made in his life. And you've made those changes. We seem to all get there in our own time and our own way. But as Dramagirl stated, I never had any doubt you'd get it all figured out. And I'm very proud of you for not only getting to this point, but for sticking around to share with the rest of us.
What confuses the heck out of me is that if the idea of providing for and protecting their family is so important to a man, why do some of them screw that up by having an A? Isn't that putting your family in danger instead of protecting them?
In my particular situation, my job earns more than my H's. I've always tried to be considerate of the idea that this may hurt his ego and not make a big deal out of it, do the whole "its all our money anyway" thing. So if it's such a big deal to H to feel that he isn't able to provide for me financially, why not get a different job or in his case get a part time job since his regular job is so flexible? No, instead he chose to use all his free time to spend with OW. Then to top it off, he doesn't use common sense to protect himself and she ends up pregnant. Now he contributes even less to "us" financially because so much goes for child support. That was a real genius move on his part.
Sorry to be so negative today, I guess I'm in the mood to vent and call things as I see them instead of trying to analyze what is making him do such stupid stuff.
It has taken me awhile to really believe all the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" things that I've read... But, when I was going through this last round with my ex, I was venting to one of my best guy friends. He finally emailed me one day and said, "I just don't know how you fix this. I want to tell you to do x, y, and z - but I think you already know that. I think you're just venting to me, not really asking me to solve it." He was right, I think lots of us (women) just want to be HEARD and are not necessarily asking for a cut-and-dry solution. I really do believe that both genders process things in a totally different way.
I never understood the whole "Man = Breadwinner" thing... I almost always made more $$ than my ex did. The money went into the household, not my own pocket. He really did seem to encourage and support that. Of course later, it became, "You never really needed me anyway." The interesting thing is that his new (OH MY GOSH, I guess they're married now!) wife doesn't care if he works or not, supports him, buys him extravagant gifts, and just generally takes care of everything. That will come back to haunt her later, but that's a whole 'nother discussion...
Monica
This is your life. Are you who you want to be? ~ Switchfoot
I appreciate your post. Looking back what do you think made you realize this. Does each man really have to realize it in his own time? Is there anything, you think the bs could do to help her h realize this?
What made me realize it? More than one person told me I was angry.
What helped the most was (1) being told by people around here that anger is a secondary emotion...it arises in response to hurt, anxiety, deprivation, or something else negative, and (2) reading Harriet Lerner's book "The Dance of Anger".
Chris, you must have moved way past that anger thing long before I showed up. You, like Cory and H2C, were all like Kwai Chang Kane when I showed up. You know all "Look not for your soul in others because there it will not be" kinda stuff. Or "Wax on. Wax off" which actually was a little Okinawan that owned a soda shop in Milwaukee.
1. I get by with a little help from my friends. (A lot, actually.)
2. The best name on these boards is already taken. We're ALL "gettingthere", but we never get there all the way.
3. I've mostly knocked down the negative emotions to hurt and fear. Those are bad enough without covering them with anger and resentment.
As much as I would like to play the wise man on top of the mountain, I really am just another traveler on the path...further than some, behind some others.
You tell me I have a way with words....however....these are some great words full of truth to share with us.
As much as I would like to play the wise man on top of the mountain, I really am just another traveler on the path...further than some, behind some others.
Thank you Dave. It's all about paying it forward. Some wise people led me to where I am now in my life, which is a very good place...and I'm hoping for much better soon.
