thanks again Tex Hurtsdeep for the advice and words of encouragement. You know i look forward now to come on here and read all the great advice and insight everyone gives,picking up any little thing that will help the healing proces and making this marriage survive is worth every minute i am on here.I know i need to feel her pain because if she didn't feel that way i would not still be here.I am working on controlling my negativebehavior and bringing those damn walls down.Ithink those walls are of shame and guilt and how i could stoop so low to the person that i have come to realize loved me more than i ever realized, and now I have to return thatlove to her.Looking forward to hearing from everyonesoon,thanks guys.
hi steve, not sure if we have met, no offence to you, i am old and just dont remember stuff much these days hahaha
i have a couple of comments
firstly, well done for being here, i know that at times it can be tough
also, while i understand your comment about being able "to feel her pain", in reality you cant, because you are not her BUT it is important to acknowledge her pain, and not run away from it, let it be hers, let her deal with it as she needs to. However, it is also important to feel your pain, you do have it, when you feel yours, you can work on that, just like she has to work on hers.
regarding being here, it is so cool to see you feel that you are looking forward to popping in etc, i am an alcholic and we have a saying in AA "it works if you work it". i think that applies here too.
so keeping visiting, keep posting, keep learning and keep loving
No problem , Steve, glad i could help.
There seems to be alot of nice people on here willing to help. Just listen to them and try to take their advice to heart.
As far as your W's pain goes , you will never be able to feel how she does, you can only imagine. But your imagination can not even come close to HER pain! You have scarred her for life. So now all you can do is try to heal some of the scars.Be gentle, be loving , be compassionate,be all the things you know she wants you to be.Win her love back if that is what you want and it sounds like you do. Then do it!! No matter what it takes!! You did destroy it now you will have to start all over again to rebuild it and her.Real love is a precious thing , don't lose it because of your pride or your selfishness. Remember complete honesty at all times , no matter what the cost!!Your wife can only begin to heal if she feels she knows everything.Stand up and be accountable. Give her the respect she deserves.
I think you want your marriage, then make it happen.
I did get my H to read some of the posts on here when he was at the house yesterday. Not sure if it will help , but we will see. But as i stated before , i have filed for D because he doesn't do the things i need him to do for me to heal.If he loved me he would.I keep praying that something will change him.So don't let it go to far Steve or she will get tired of waiting.
This message has been edited by hurtsdeep2 on Jun 16, 2006 10:25 AM
This is for you as a F(former)WS to read if you haven't yet. You need to download it. I think it costs 5 or 10 bucks. From the feedback I've read it can be very helpful.
Steve, short note. I'm in the same boat as you, as your first note in this forum I could have written almost the exact same words. It sounds like you might be making progress. Nothing I do in my situation helps, as my wife does not believe that anything can help, and therefore will not even try. She doesn't believe in counseling. She has also rejected Retrouvaille. In her words nothing can help. She doesn't believe that anyone has traveled down our road before, and so what has happened cannot be recovered from. Overwhelmingly I have read great things about Retrouvaille, and it continues to amaze me that she won't even attempt. She has been "attempting" to get a legal separation for over a year and a half, and yet the papers aren't signed. Believe me when I say that this situation is a 24/7 thing for me. I have not slept well for more than a year and a half. I now have high blood pressure. The only thing that I am consumed with is how to save our marriage. I love my wife dearly, but she continues unconvinced. If I loved her I could I have done what I did? I have repeatedly said I would do anything.
I wish my H seemed to be as worried about fixing things as you two seem to be. My H hasn't done a whole lot, at least that's how I feel, to make me feel special or to show me that he's trying to figure out WHY he did it. I called him yesterday & told him that I don't feel that I should have to wait until he has the time to spoil me. I told him that I deserve it now. Steve, I also had him read what I posted to you in hopes that it might sink in.It's just hard for me to figure out why, in alot of cases, the WS doesn't bend over backwards to show the BS how special they are & how sorry the WS is for what they did. If I were the WS I would be practically on my knees begging for forgiveness & I would be doing small things everyday to show the love that I have for that person. Yet, Kathy & I see our spouses outward appearances & it just seems like everyday life to them.That hurts ALOT! We want love notes, cards, letters, etc. The amount of money you spend on something doesn't mean anything, it's the time & thought that counts & it needs to be an everyday thing.You WS have no idea how much that would help us to survive & give us hope. I don't think my H will ever understand this concept.
Your posts both touched me greatly. You see, I was one of those with a spouse who wouldn't accept responsibility and always found a way to make it my fault. He was drowning in his guilt, but wouldn't do anything about it. He was in pain, but wouldn't share it and couldn't watch my pain. He lashed out over and over again. Now I understand it wasn't that he hated me, but that he hated himself. We aren't together anymore and I am now happy with my own single life some 4 or 5 years later. It was a really long road, but I am that much better for it and I learned alot about me and about others. However, something will haunt me for life, that is just the nature of the affair beast.
The fact that you both have taken responsibility and will do anything to save your marriage, well it was something I personally prayed would happen for a long time. It is the first step to beginning a healing journey with your spouse. Backing up your words with actions, being honest in everything you do from now on and meaning everything you say will be important from now on. You both seem like you have it in you!
You have a long road ahead and you may be discouraged during parts of it, we all have been, so keep forging ahead through the good and bad and the ups and downs. Grieve for what you must grieve for, but always try to share your thoughts and feelings with your spouse. It may hurt at first, but will help you both to develop better communication.
I am glad you found this site. It has been a great source of comfort for me and I hope you find it so as well.
Hi Steve,
Good for you being here! It took me a long time to be able to read some of the psot here. i am not sure why I couldn't or wouldn't but I didn't for a long time.
I must say that Retrouvaille really helped ME! Being a Ws it is difficult to live with yourself at times especially after the fog lifts and the realization of what you have done is very appearant. I am not only talking about the pain that you have caused with you spouse but with friends (I have lost a few because of what I did),family and with yourself! The pain with in yourself is huge and so sometimes it comes out in anger because you realize what has been done and it is frustrating because you want it to just go away!
Well it won't ever go away. So, now you must deal not only with your hurt spouse but your hurt self as well. Retrouvaille helped me to realize that I am human and it is ok to feel the pain and now it is ok to deal with it too. That is the thing is you have to deal with this mess..don't try and blame it away, sweep it away or ignore it away...IT WILL NEVER GO AWAY IF YOU DO THAT!!!!! Even if there is a divorce the same mistakes will happen over again just with someone else. So, why not deal with it now!
During Retrouvaille, Bob and I learned so much about ourselves (it was amazing) and each other! I learned about his fears and pain and he learned about mine and all of this baggage that we have carried around for the last 23 years of being together... stuff we never knew about each other!!! Afterwards, it is like a HUGE weight has been lifted and now everything is out there and now you can begin to work on yourself and the marriage with new communication skills.
The "WHY" question could very well be revealed during this process because it is a self examnination during Retrouvaille.
Another thing, Retrouvaille does takes some of the shame away for you and your spouse. Because there are so many other people hurting at that weekend in a similiar situation that it makes it easier to deal with.
Part of my problem I was having is the shame I felt. I was angry with myself for allowing myself to stoop so low. I never dreamed in a million years that I would have an affair. I am just not that type of person. I was always extremely shy and never dated much. I had one serious boyfriend before Bob. I am always trying to please people not hurt them so why would I do the ultimate hurt? I had an affair with our neighbor and I was friends with his wife and our children played together. Our kids basically grew up with each other. We were very close.
So, I really created a mess. We moved away and our kids are no longer friends. I have hurt so many people. It just kills me inside to think of what I have done. So, it is hard dealing with all of the pain I have caused. I will have to deal with that for the rest of my life.
So, why did I do it?
I have a pretty good idea now as to why it happened. Would I ever do it again? Hell no!!!!
I know now that I am the only one that can make me happy!
By reading all of the post from your wife and others I realize the damage I have done to the OM's wife, my now ex friend, I know I can never feel Bob's and her pain, but I have a really good idea of what they go through everyday. She not only has trust issues with her husband, but now she has trust issues with other female friends! All because of me. I wrote her a letter of appology. i wanted her to know that I realize what I have done to her and her family. I am not sure it will help, but if it elliviates any of her pain then that is my goal. In my circumstance, it was the right thing to do.
Hang in there Steve! Keep reading the post on the Discovery forum because it is great insight as to what Kathy is feeling and how it affects peoples lives. It has helped me.
Mrs. Bob, great post. I am so very glad that you got out of the fog and are posting, reaching out to these guys. I'm sure you are aware that Bob and I used to email alot back in the beginning. You've come along way in the few months I've known you and Bob on the boards. These guys would do well to listen to your words. Well done.
Thanks for your kind words. It has been a long hard, emotional road, but it was one I had to take! It is not over by far, but at least it is not as bumpy!!!! I couldn't have done it without Bob's support and love.
My response is directed mostly at Mrs. Bob, but also to some of the others. As the person who screwed up, I'm glad that those of you who were the betrayed spouse give me encouragement. It's very hard, though, as my wife is not receptive at all. She continues to state that she can never trust me again, the hurt is too deep, there is nothing that will help. And while the pain that she is experiencing is awful, and I know I can't experience, I can never feel what she is feeling, I also experience pain that is almost unbearable also as I see everything that we have being destroyed. And I'm not referring to money or anything else that is tangible. I've stated repeatedly that anything we have monetarily or possession wise means anything to me--it's all about our life together, and finishing it together. I would give it all away and work until I die in order to have our life together, and our family. The emotional loss that is suffered by EVERYONE in this process and a life after divorce, in my mind, is staggering.
I've corresponded with Bob a number of times and probably will again tonight or soon. I've read over and over again how you both keep emphasizing how much Retrouvaille helped your situation and helped others. I continue to be dumdfounded that my wife will not even try. She told the local coordinator that she didn't feel she could be 100% committed to it, and her pain is so deep that noe one could possibly have experienced what she's experienced, and come back from it. Yet, she has told me this is not where she wants to be. The question in my head constantly is, "When is enough, enough?" She hears how I feel in terms of me telling her that I love her, but she doesn't believe it--that I only want to be with her because of "it's convenient. You don't want to be alone. And so that we're better off financially". My life is a nightmare, 24/7. I often feel that she wants me to do something stupid, to give up, so that she is justified in continuing with the path she is on.
There's clearly no one happy in this situation, and in my case the best that I can say is that I exist from day to day.
I just wanted to encourage you to share a little more of your story with us if/when you feel comfortable doing so. That way we can maybe offer some experiences of our own that helped....or didn't help.
Sounds like your wife is confused as to what she really wants at this point. But as Tex said, she's still having contact with you so that means something.
Welcome to the site. Sorry you had to find us but glad you're willing to reach out for help.
>>The question in my head constantly is, "When is enough, enough?" She hears how I feel in terms of me telling her that I love her, but she doesn't believe it--that I only want to be with her because of "it's convenient. You don't want to be alone. And so that we're better off financially". My life is a nightmare, 24/7. I often feel that she wants me to do something stupid, to give up, so that she is justified in continuing with the path she is on.
There's clearly no one happy in this situation, and in my case the best that I can say is that I exist from day to day.<<
For heaven's sake, NEVER ask her "when is enough, enough?".
The answer, by the way, is when she says so.
She is in the process of re-evaluating your whole married life. When trust is destroyed by an affair, it isn't uncommon for the betrayed spouse to look at "old questions" in light of the new truth. It's very common for a betrayed spouse to wonder how many more affairs there were that s/he doesn't know about.
You don't want to hear this, but TIME is the only thing that makes enough, enough. Some books say two years. (At two years, I was back in detective mode and found some non-affair secrets that were nonetheless a further betrayal.) You don't have to be perfect...none of us is. You do have to be open about your mistakes, though, as a "price" for what you've done.
And for heaven's sake, don't ever say "I'm still here, aren't I?", either, in response to any question or statement about staying together.
You may have to keep saying (and doing) things to prove that you want to stay together. You shouldn't stop until she says "enough, already". It might go a long way simply to ask how she's feeling about you (and apply some "mental duct tape" to your mouth when you're tempted to defend yourself) and then thank her for telling you.
She continues to state that she can never trust me again, the hurt is too deep, there is nothing that will help.
Lets break this apart. continues to state that she can never trust me again,
Thats very true as she will never fully trust you again. She can however get to a point where she is comfortable as long as you are open with everything that you do. Hide the smallest thing in the first 2 years that she finds out about and you will send her back to square one, you too.
the hurt is too deep,
Thats very true. The hurt of a BS is incredible with no way to actually explain in words just how deep the pain is. Words just fall short of this whole experience for a BS.
, there is nothing that will help.
Not so true. There are lots of things that you can do. First and foremost you have to establish an honest track record and that takes time. You must be totally open with every aspect of your life from here on out. She will need to verify over and over again much of what you say in regard to what you do, where youve been, who with, for how long. You must make yourself available to her at all times especially in the first few months. This will ease up as time goes by. If you get angry for her insecurities and emotions about checking up on you then you are just making her more suspicious or worse ------at some point when enough lies are discovered or are continued, she will stop caring enough to check up on you. Always remember who did the lying, the cheating, the deceiving and who broke the trust that you had. Know that you have to earn the trust back. Offer to talk about the affair. Offer to disclose any information about it. If you think of something that you have not come clean with, no matter how trivial it may seem to you, tell her. A reasonable person will see that you are trying, making every effort.
She told the local coordinator that she didn't feel she could be 100% committed to it, and her pain is so deep that noe one could possibly have experienced what she's experienced, and come back from it.
I think most BS spouses feel this way at some point. If she is still there with you then she is hanging around for SOME reason.
"When is enough, enough?"
You better get this thought out of your head and quick. If it happens you will know but you damn sure dont want to focus on it for a future thought. You dont call the shots here since you didnt include her in the decision process to have an affair. Im not trying to beat you up on this. Change your focus on this to figure that it will be for the rest of your life and anything less will be gravy.
She hears how I feel in terms of me telling her that I love her, but she doesn't believe it
Look at it from her perspective. Which time are you lying about? When you deceived her with all the affair business or now when you say that you love her? Trust has been broken. You must earn it back like I explained above. As you establish an honest track record she will ease up on you. Its human nature. She does not want to live like this either, in this uncertain turmoil. She wants a solution too. She wants answers and resolve.
that I only want to be with her because of "it's convenient.
You cant understand how she feels? Again this is the trust issue.
My life is a nightmare, 24/7.
Yep, and hers too. Believe me, she wants peace of mind in the worst way and for her there is no end in sight just yet. But it does get better for both of you with time and consistent good behavior on your part.
I often feel that she wants me to do something stupid, to give up, so that she is justified in continuing with the path she is on.
Again not beating you up here but youve already done something stupid. But from here on out no matter what the outcome of your marriage, you owe it to YOURSELF and any partner that you end up with to be honest, control your actions, and live in a dignified manner, a manner in which you can feel proud of. Mistakes can be overcome if the root causing behavior is changed.
I exist from day to day.
Accept the fact that it is gonna be like that for a while no matter what the outcome of your marriage will be. There is no quick fix to this. There is no easy out, not for you, not for her. Its a long process with or without each other.
Focus on your behavior. Control your actions/reactions. Become the person that you really want to be. She will notice because that person is who she wanted you to be in the first place.
<<< I continue to be dumdfounded that my wife will not even try. >>>
Why are you dumbfounded buddy? I know this is gonna be hard to hear but she doesn't owe you an attempt at reconcilliation. Let's face it, some folks can't get over it. They just can't.
All I can suggest if this is her frame of mind at the moment then don't guilt her, or manipulate her into it being her responsilbility for holding the family together. All that will do is confuse her, anger her and hurt her even worse.
Is there anything else you can do to lighten her burden? Anything at all? Maybe she just needs some "me" time. She needs to see its about her needs...not your wants.
What does she like to do? Hell book her a weekend retreat at her favorite activity away from you, the kids...everything. How about even more help around the house and with the children?
If I was in your shoes...as scared as I might be...I would let her know I respect her and her wishes and I will be there until she decides what she wants to do.
This is Barbara here. I know that none of you can take back what you did but you can sure control what you do now & in the future.I just caught my H in a lie. This is after spending the last 10 months telling me that he loved me & our children & wanted to make our marriage work. This is after he said he knew he f**ked up & was sorry.So, he has broken my heart yet again. It is my fault for letting him but at the same time, no one has the right to keep hurting someone. So, WS if you arn't 100% sure that you have what it takes to be honest & faithful from now on, then do your spouse a huge favor, be honest & just move on. Don't stay for appearances & don't stay if you don't truly love that persson.
Sometimes love isn't enough. You can still love somebody and hurt them. You can still love somebody and have an affair. I don't think WS's set out to deliberately hurt others, I think they just segregate the affair and their family in different compartments and figure nobody will ever know.
The problem is what is inside the WS. If they don't work on their issues they will continue with past behaviour - lies, deceit, etc. Once a person starts lying it becomes easier and easier to lie and more difficult to tell the truth all the time, especially when they know the truth will get them in shit! It is important to create an environment that encourages them to tell the truth.
That being said, my exH's final nail in the coffin was the last lie he told. I realized I could not live like that. There was no suspicions and no doubts in my mind since I knew the truth, and he continued to lie about it even after he knew that I knew.
Kid
Edited to add: opps sorry - Threadjack lol
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Jun 19, 2006 10:49 AM
.I just read your W's post. She seems to still be hurting alot.You still need to remember that it is going to take alot of giving and taking from you. As a BS i know the pain and how deep it is. It is there with you everyday , every minute,every breath you take.
You and only you can help her. As someone said in a previous post , you have to live in a dignified manner. You have to prove to your W that you are a man she can be proud of again!!Find the root of your behavior and tell her. Bring those walls down. Have you ever told her how you feel about yourself? You said you feel shame and guilt that you stooped so low. Have your expressed that shame and guilt to her?Have you told her what your feelings for the OW were then and what they are now??
You said you didn't realize how much your W loved you. Why didn't you realize that? You have the answers , if you really want your marriage then do something, you have that power!! You could be like T.O., his wife doesn't want to try.At least yours is giving you a chance, but what are you doing with that chance? Your W may get like me and get tired of giving and giving and nothing really happens.It does get old after awhile.Consider yourself lucky or you might lose that chance.
This message has been edited by hurtsdeep2 on Jun 19, 2006 6:37 PM
Haven't seen you on here for awhile. How are things going? Have you give up?It takes alot of work on your part all the time ,i hope you still remember that.
My on marriage is probably not going to make it and i think that is why i check on yours now and when. Your W reminds me so much of myself that i feel if i can help save another marriage that maybe mine still has hope. I feel your W's pain , i know the hurt you have caused her, everyday dwelling on what you did, i did that too. It is a awful way to live.It hurts so bad at all times.You have to be the one to help her if you want your marriage to work and if you want your wife back.Wouldn't
it be great to have your W love you again ,like before.
Steve, is it what you really want?? Then make it happen!!
Show her your emotions, set down with her and tell her how guilty and ashamed you are. But show the emotions along with it.I know if i would have seen any real emotions from my H i would have been more willing to try.She needs to SEE that you are truly sorry not just hear the words.
