IfICould said
(I will tell you this; my wife�s infidelity occurred while we had been dating for 3 years. We started when we were 14. Yes, we were committed. She revealed part of it to me in our first year of marriage. Little was ever spoken of it. She just couldn�t cope so it was swept away � at least for her. The rest came out 8 months ago (28 years later) and we are finally addressing it and we are healing in a way neither of us thought possible. She has read all of these posts and if a thread is started, she�ll be there participating with me.)

So this happened when you were about 17?

This festered and ate at the both of you for 28 years till one of you snapped.

I am sorry but I find this all hard to understand.

How can this still be this big an issue for the two of you after all you have been through in your lifetime? IE (kids, job, life in general)

If your wife was having such a terrible time coping with this there is no possible way the two of you could go 28 years and not think about it almost daily which in turn would have destroyed the marraige long ago.

you also say that (It�s absolutely scary how many people, male and female, engage in affairs during their engagement. During their engagement! I mean really, what is the point of commitment.)

This tells me that you are not over this you have not delt with it on your own you are still upset that she cheated on you

This statement tells me that you are still resentful of what your wife did loooooooooooong ago and you have not let go of that fact that she did what she did when she was a CHILD of 17.

I will say this yes adultery hurts yes it does leave scars however from what I have read in your posts neither of you have ever been with anyone else (dating wise) and maybe she was having second thoughts of being with the first man she dated for the rest of her life.

I for one would like to hear her side of this








Tony

Tony, you're obviously a man. I would also suspect slightly on the youthful side as well?

Unfortunately, your viewpoint is only about the "act" itself. One thing I've learned throughout all of my reading is that men are almost always consumed by the physical fallout of betrayal regardless of which side of the issue they are a victim of.

In fact, I'm often surprised by how single minded the vast majority of men are on the issue of infidelity. I call them �dogs� because if it moves they�ll be interested. I say �them� because I am proud not to be a �dog� and never (even at age 15) have been. (I'm not intimating you are one or the other, it is only an observation)

Although that part was hurtful it was not the issue for me at all. There are many very real issues abrogated by the timing in our lives and veiled revelation that represented, what I thought was, the character of the woman I loved.

It really boils down to several perceptions.

A: At what age do we become morally sentient beings?
B: At what age in our lives shall we be judged, by self and others, for our ability or inability to put in practice behaviors representative of our character?
C: How honorable a person do you choose to be and how does that choice influence your ability to be judged as a �deceiver�? as a man, or woman, of principle?
D: What does the act of sexual intercourse mean to you? Is it merely the act of two animals or is it a spiritual union to be revered for what it is; a gift to the one you love?

This could go on and on but, from an intellectual aspect, you are so far off the mark it�s almost not worth trying to address. As long as everyone is so focused on the deeds of their mate (ie: what was done, what was said, when, where and how) you can never get to the other side. I don�t mean survival, I mean far beyond. What you�re doing here is focusing on the deeds and we�ll not go there any longer. In other words those issues are not even a remote part of our process.

She�ll see this (when she gets up this morning) and she�ll decide if she wants to respond.

The point is, this issue (infidelity) might have been the catalyst to the discussion, but it was NOT the discussion. It was about how our lack of closure has inhibited our ability to be truly intimate and loving partners and how the fallout has subtly had a major impact on our lives together. Our relationship was �separate� not tightly intertwined as I felt I needed (and subsequently what she needed as much as I). Her guilt, and resulting shame, kept her from engaging completely. It�s almost as if she truly didn�t believe she was worthy and deserving. All of that has changed and the ideal relationship, as I perceived, has now opened up and is enthusiastically pursued by both of us.

Lastly, Tony, in �Preator vs Prey�, you thought I said we slept in different parts of our home. I didn�t say that! I said we went to bed at different times. Quite different! Please carefully read and don�t throw out inaccurate statements. If you want me, or my wife, to respond please stay on the mark!

Thanks for your interest though.

"This could go on and on but, from an intellectual aspect, you are so far off the mark it�s almost not worth trying to address. As long as everyone is so focused on the deeds of their mate (ie: what was done, what was said, when, where and how) you can never get to the other side. I don�t mean survival, I mean far beyond. What you�re doing here is focusing on the deeds and we�ll not go there any longer. In other words those issues are not even a remote part of our process."

I find it interesting that you look down on some of the men of these boards because they have not reached the otherside, when from reading your posts you are far from reaching the otherside yourself. You haven't been here long enough to know how the men of these boards think, or the woman for that matter.

First you have to deal with the what was done, what was said, when, where, why and how - regardless of your sex. When you have had a chance to process all that (and that takes years) only then can you begin to look to the far beyond. It is a process and everybody goes about it a different way but in my years on these boards I have found that generally everybody goes through the same grieving, hurting process. The various stages of grief if you will.

You say you aren't there any longer - hmmmm I have to wonder them why you are preaching your method and whether you are hoping to convince us, or yourself.

Kid

A: Did I say �this� board? There are many others not part of network 54. Besides, this is an issue of �if the shoe fits� isn�t it? I surely wouldn�t find it offensive or directed at me because, I�m not!

B: �You are far from reaching the other side�; Hmmm! I�m certain you must know.

C: �or the women for that matter�; Where did that come from?

D: �I have found that generally everybody goes through the same grieving, hurting process�;

Yes Kid, you are right, but, you can chose to stay right there or you can allow yourself to move beyond ( that is once you�re through the process). You did say �in my years on these boards�, right?

E: �You say you aren't there any longer - hmmmm I have to wonder them why you are preaching your method and whether you are hoping to convince us, or yourself.�

I don�t feel the need to convince you of anything. I am merely responding to Tony. In fact if you want your own hell you can have it. I�m just saying I�m/we�re not interested in joining you.

Preaching? Hmmm, are you sure I�m the one preaching or am I the one on the defensive? 1st I defend us to Tony, now I�m defending myself from you; preaching? You�re just wrong.





By the way, why does everybody pick on the irrelevant stuff? Why don't you focus on the meat, the important stuff? GT, Chris, MM where are you? If you have an issue with what I've said give me something of substance to consider.

how these arguments are conducive to healing, support, and encouragement.  That's what these boards are about. 

IIC, do you need healing, support and/or encouragment?

Jean

Thanks Jean, you�re right. Actually, I�m not quite sure what I�m looking for. Frankly I received lots of great information (last night) from Chris, GT, MM and from Laurie's recommendation on the 2 audio pieces.

But, I�m the one having to respond and be on the defensive in this thread so I�m not quite sure why you�re directing this to me? Are you? Are you suggesting I ignore the questioning and just be the favorite person to direct one's misguided frustrations at for the day?

I'm getting very close to the point this may well make the most sense.

Good day!

Yes If I said in my years on these boards - almost 4 to be precise. I am now divorced and have moved past the affair to focus on personal growth of myself. I still find myself here because I have become friends with those that I spent the early part of my grieving process sharing tears with. We bonded together and helped each other, offered support. That isn't something to take lightly and I will always be grateful which is why I believe in paying it forward, and why I am here now.

I am not clear on what your purpose is here since you clearly stated that you aren't looking to join our group and you find our methods of healing unacceptable. I also am not clear on whether you are not yet over the infidelity of your wife many years ago prior to marriage or this is a new infidelity that you are having difficulty dealing with.

K

�I am not clear on what your purpose is here since you clearly stated that you aren't looking to join our group and you find our methods of healing unacceptable. I also am not clear on whether you are not yet over the infidelity of your wife many years ago prior to marriage or this is a new infidelity that you are having difficulty dealing with.�

Wow, K, do you just make this stuff up as you go? There is not a lick of this statement with even the slightest bit of validity.

Mrs. IIC; �I am frustrated by some of the ways people are communicating on this site. IIC was are not out to belittle how or what others are going through and neither am I. We are only are telling our story in the hopes to help others. Why do people so often miss the actual point of the message and go on to pick on the non-important issues at hand?

I'll provide you some background on our specific situation since it really is like no others that we've come across on any forum so that, in and of itself, has made this more unique and difficult � We have found no one that has been in our shoes. Maybe now you will understand who we are and where we have come from. It is our hope that you can learn from our mistakes and achieve what we are on the road to achieving because no one deserves to have 25+ years of the living hell of infidelity that IIC did.

I say IIC because in my mind it was an error in judgment that I had, vowed I�d never do again and moved on. But he was unable to move on. He couldn�t because we didn�t deal with it properly. We have only learned in the last 8 months what we needed to do in order to heal completely. It is still a process for us. There are still down days for both of us but they are fewer and farther in between.

It is true that my one single infidelity took place at the very young age of 17 (three years after we started dating) but just because we were so young shouldn�t have diminished IIC�s feelings and my obligation to address the problem. I truly thought it was my problem, my cross to bear. Back then I was never going to tell him. I swore to go to my grave with my terrible secret and learn from it instead. I thought I was doing a noble thing by not telling him. What did I know � I was 17. I thought "why should he have to hurt so much at the expense of my mistake?" I learned a valuable lesson early in life and I moved on. I never felt, and still don�t, that I should be grouped with other adults that have made the same misguided decisions. Still, the damage was very real and required that I address it. Regardless, infidelity is still infidelity. I�m proud of the fact that I was able to learn what was truly important at such an early age and have never once, since then, wavered.

This has been an unspoken problem over the course of our 35 years together. Trust was destroyed yet never resolved. When it came out in our first year of marriage I was afraid. IIC had grown up in a truly rare family of support, love, esteem building and conviction. His convictions were exceedingly strong even as a 14 year old. This made it even more difficult for both of us; for him to understand and for me to acknowledge and justify. So, I gave him no more than I thought he needed. I was not completely honest. So, it was swept away and I thought things were ok. It was gone, so I thought. Life would go on and we still would have many happy times. Careers, houses, children, hockey, softball, baseball, vacations and, yes, still much love. We had many, many happy times.

As years went by I would get little glimpses that the pain I levied at him was not really gone. He would get unexpectedly angry and we would be estranged for a day or two. I too would be angry, but still, I/we didn�t address it. After many years of angry episodes I became more detached, less caring. I thought �why can�t he get over this? I thought he was in need of counseling. We followed the classic pattern of marriages and we started to withdraw emotionally from each other. We started going to bed at different times. I was a night owl, he was a morning person. This estranged us further. This all changed one late night in early January of this year.

It was then he came down from bed, unable to sleep, wanting me, wanting just to spend some time together. I knew things were not right but I couldn�t put a finger on it or maybe I was just unwilling to address it. Well, he did. I knew something was terribly wrong (no, neither of us �snapped�) so I went snooping and I found an article called �Through the tear stained eyes of the betrayed� in his breifcase. Until I read that article I just had no understanding of how he had felt throughout the years. It was then I began to see the damage. I never understood that his biggest unresolved issue was with my willingness to lie and be deceitful all these years - frankly I didn't understand the damage it had done to me either. It made me incapable of having or feeling that I deserved a truly loving and intimate relationship. I've learned since that this is not true.

This time, armed with new information, I was resolved to make things right. It was very early in the morning on January 4th that I started, we started, to reclaim who we really were. No doubt we were still in love but we both had many years of resentment and unresolved issues to atone for. Again I was afraid.

As things unfolded this time, and as I began to approach things with total honesty, HE began to heal. Never in a million years would I have thought that would happen. Only then did the awful pain he had for so many years begin to dissipate. He still pressed me for more. He wanted to know the why�s of what I did, how I felt about me � what it had done to me as a person, to my character, to my self esteem? Still I thought how is this going to help him heal but I did it anyway. So we started to work on my feelings � something I had never even thought of. I was raised in a home where communication was virtually non-existant, very little discipline and we certainly didn�t show or tell each other how we felt about each other or life. This was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. But the closeness that it brought to our relationship was astonishing. For the first time in our relationship, we actually were deeply intimate. What a waste of many years that we missed out on that could have been so much better. It is this revelation that we found to truly set us free. I�m not done searching for answers to find out how I could have done what I did � I think it's a combination of things � immaturity, self esteem, selfishness and I hope to continue this journey to make both of us completely whole. And that is why we search here and other forums � to try to understand and continue to move ahead in the most positive way that we can learn.

So, with regards to our story, please, can we deal with the �substantial� issues of emotional damage that infidelity causes and not necessarily the act itself � we are beyond that. It is how you reconcile that is of utmost importance. This time we have done what was necessary in order to make things right � for both of us. We hope our story can be an inspiration to others and if it helps you, great.� Mrs. IIC.


Mr. IIC here.

I want to conclude this with a couple of points; First, saying to us things like �being a part of our group� and �our methods of healing� does indeed denote the mutual admiration society that I said in another post. Communicate the same way, heal the same way, hurt the same way we do or you just don�t fit here.

That really is fine with us. I think we get it. Mrs. IIC says this is almost a gift and proves, once again, just how special our relationship really is. At the same time I think there are others that could possibly learn from our mistakes and if our commentary motivates even one WS to do it right and then pursue the goal of a perfect love, maybe then, some of this might have been worthwhile.

Lastly, I want to thank, in particular, Laurie; that audio piece you referred me to really did help me very much. Thank you! I also want to thank GT for being so patient, clear and insightful in your responses. I very much appreciate it, very much!

Our best wishes to all of you!

Mr. and Mrs. IIC,

Sorry if you have concluded you don't fit here, or that those who choose to participate exhibit "groupthink". Only you know the answer to the former, and I must energetically disagree with the latter.

Perhaps it would help you to know that several of us have met other participants (in person) at various times, and so are probably a little more friendly and deferential than we would be to strangers. Those meetings (from what I know of them) have been in genuine friendship and have grown out of the support we have lent to one another in resolving various life questions.

To assert that most people here are "stuck" in some phase of "affair recovery" is simply hogwash. If you read back far enough in the archives, most longtime participants have come to the conclusion (as GT has expressed) that it ain't about an affair. From my knowledge (what folks have shared), the affairs discussed here have served to expose the very things you have detailed: a lifetime of emptiness or brokenness on the part of the WS, and the ensuing chaos in the life of the BS.

Most posts and questions deal with resolving or dealing with the WS's brokenness, or with the chaos introduced into the lives of the BS's. For example, go back 6 months or so and read Carol's posts about the state of her marriage prior to her family's trip to Italy. Read about her resolve to end the state of affairs. Read about how she threw her husband out, and learned that his affair had continued or resumed right up to the day she threw him out. And read about his remorse. And IIC, that story isn't over yet. There will be joy and sorrow in Carol's life, good and bad days. And we will be here when she feels the need to discuss those things.

It's too bad you didn't find this site or one of its predecessors while you were struggling. Someone might have told you to confront your wife many years sooner than you did, and you wouldn't have wasted an entire adult lifetime in anger and emptiness.

In any case, best wishes for your continued recovery and happiness.

Chris.

ps. Threadjacking is a long and accepted tradition here. If you feel the need to restart the discussion on its own thread, nothing's stopping you from framing the questions you would like to address or telling your own story in your own words.

Chris,

�Sorry if you have concluded you don't fit here, or that those who choose to participate exhibit "groupthink". Only you know the answer to the former, and I must energetically disagree with the latter. �

I did not say we didn�t fit here. It was a response to the statements kid said i.e.: �I am not clear on what your purpose is here since you clearly stated that you aren't looking to join our group and you find our methods of healing unacceptable.�

I don�t know where this came from (because I made no such statement) but it surely does lead one to believe there is, in fact, a �groupthink� (your word). If this isn�t representative of the members then maybe you need to consider rectifying it when one speaks for the many.

�To assert that most people here are "stuck" in some phase of "affair recovery" is simply hogwash.�

Where did this come from? Is this what you have interpreted from one of my responses? If, so I (we) in no way feel this to be the case. Again, our responses have been relative to our situation and our life. Remember, this thread started with Tony asking us questions and then more from others. We have merely responded the best we feel we can. At the same time, some of the line of questioning, in my opinion, has been inappropriate and intentionally inflammatory.

�If you read back far enough in the archives, most longtime participants have come to the conclusion (as GT has expressed) that it ain't about an affair.�

I understand this completely and have accepted that from other responses (GT, you, MM). That is not what Tony started in this thread nor was it Kid�s line of questioning either.

�From my knowledge (what folks have shared), the affairs discussed here have served to expose the very things you have detailed: a lifetime of emptiness or brokenness on the part of the WS, and the ensuing chaos in the life of the BS.�

Surely, we can agree on this.

�Most posts and questions deal with resolving or dealing with the WS's brokenness, or with the chaos introduced into the lives of the BS's. For example, go back 6 months or so and read Carol's posts about the state of her marriage prior to her family's trip to Italy. Read about her resolve to end the state of affairs. Read about how she threw her husband out, and learned that his affair had continued or resumed right up to the day she threw him out. And read about his remorse. And IIC, that story isn't over yet. There will be joy and sorrow in Carol's life, good and bad days. And we will be here when she feels the need to discuss those things.�

I have been watching this situation as well. It�s not just on this board. At the same time what does this have to do with my wife and I having to defend ourselves from irrelevant questions?

�It's too bad you didn't find this site or one of its predecessors while you were struggling. Someone might have told you to confront your wife many years sooner than you did, and you wouldn't have wasted an entire adult lifetime in anger and emptiness.�

You couldn�t be more right but, to our knowledge, not too many support forums were around in 1978. Also, we�ve not had a lifetime of anger and emptiness. We�ve had a lifetime of missed potential! There is a very big difference. Had either of us felt as you describe, angry and empty, we would not be together today. It�s been far more subtle than your impression. It really was a background influence that kept us from achieving a marital relationship we were capable of having. My wife just summarized 30 years in, what, 4 paragraphs? Hardly a thorough representation of our lives together. We were still happy in many other ways. This one issue just wasn�t resolved and it needed resolution because its impact was becoming more pervasive. Of course we had no idea the lack of resolution was the cause of our increasing differences (or withdrawal). That is, until January 4th.

There were also many other unusual life challenges that we had to over come and grapple with together. In many ways these challenges channeled us to each other. It was only then we were prepared for new discoveries in our relationship. Neither of us were ever alone, but in retrospect, both of us were lonely.

In my 1st response to Tony I said the following;

It really boils down to several perceptions.

A: At what age do we become morally sentient beings?
B: At what age in our lives shall we be judged, by self and others, for our ability or inability to put in practice behaviors representative of our character?
C: How honorable a person do you choose to be and how does that choice influence your ability to be judged as a �deceiver�? as a man, or woman, of principle?
D: What does the act of sexual intercourse mean to you? Is it merely the act of two animals or is it a spiritual union to be revered for what it is; a gift to the one you love?

I still would like some response on the questions I asked above which no one has yet to endeavor an attempt. My lord, this is the substance of which I speak!

At this point I feel that I�ve been accused of looking down on other men because they have not reached the other side � I never said this. (It is publicly acknowledged that many are overtly, and some of those many, are proudly promiscuous � hence the �dogs� comment made as a generalization only. It was not directed at anyone in particular and the men that are here likely do not fit the �dog� stigma). I have been accused of preaching while doing nothing but defending. I�ve been accused of not accepting YOUR healing methods.

I never said any of these things � people made interpretations of their own and then came back at me with what they �thought� I meant. Jean was right, I�m surely feeling no such fuzzies as �encouragement�. I think she was actually directing this as a criticism toward me!

So, I guess I�m confused. What do you want from us? You want the story but you don�t really care to hear it? Am I reading these reactions accurately?

ICC

Go back and look at your 4 questions. You will realize that all of them will be interpreted by everyone differently and I'm fairly confident none of them can be answered, only guessed upon. Each person has a very different genetic make up and I'd doubt any person would be the same nor are their life circumstances.

Quite frankly, I don't understand why you are here either. I mean if you want support (and we're always ready to give that), why do you ask questions that no one could possibly answer? It is to rile feathers?

Charlie

That's ok Charlie, I'm interested in opinions, really!

You may well be right but for all those varied opinions I'd love to hear how people support them.

The answers could kind of be a "pulse" to draw some prospective from. I'd just like to know what people think and why. I'm not trying to rile anyone.

"I don�t feel the need to convince you of anything. I am merely responding to Tony. In fact if you want your own hell you can have it. I�m just saying I�m/we�re not interested in joining you."

I took this to mean exactly what you wrote. You were not interested in joining us. What I have since figured out is that you must be referring to hell since you seem baffled at the conclusion I drew from it. I apologize if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth.

K

K, you are absolutely right and thank you I appreciate your sentiment!

IIc-
Im going to try and answer some of your questons, once again from my perpective.

1/�@Its possible that humans become morally senitient at different rates and times. For some it is an evolving process that is developed due to lifes circumstances. we dont all wake up at the age of seven and think " well I know exctly the right thing to do in every circumstance. If you read C.S.�@Lewiss Mere Christianity, he says that we have an inherent sense of right and wrong. It is someithing integral to our psyche.

But like I wrote in an earlier post, lifes tragic experiences have a way of destroying the beauty of our spirits/souls. The world is filled with people whose psyche/spirit/soul that has been damaged to the point where the ability to make a healthy conscious choice is a non-existent.

I can tell you that my experience with affairs, I became a bitter, hate filled, vicious woman. I wasnt thay way prior. And thankfully I am no longer filled with those negative feelings.

By the grace of God/ spirit/ love, people can awaken and grow into new beings. We can evolve from negative thinking and behaving to positve thinking and behaving.


Healing from any traumatic experience is evolutionary spaghetti. You dont know where one noodle begins, or where one ends.


I appreciate your deep philosophical questions. I think I understand what you are trying to discover. Humans are so multi-faceted , but at the base of all humans is the desire to know that we are loved and respected. And when we intrinsically feel that somehow we arent loved, even if it is a momentary feeling/perception, we can become afraid and confused. And BAM we can screw up.

Anyway, I hope some of this makes sense.


Ill try and answer another question later. Sorry for the poor grammar, but I still cant find the apostrophe.

TLMM

All of these questions are impossible to answer as each of us are unique individuals. The given age for your first three questions will vary with individuals as none of us are going to be faced with the same issues at the same age in life. The answers to those questions will be related to how we were raised, and the lessons we were taught in our upbringing.

A child raised by morally corrupt parents could recognize the bad behavior at an early age and pledge to themselves not to turn out like their parents. Or that same child could model themselves after the behavior they are daily exposed to.

This child could take a dime or quarter off the desk at a friends house, being caught in the act, the issue could be handled many different ways. If the child was told, �If your going to be a thief, don�t mess around with nickels and dimes� rob Fort Knox.�

Those words could either shame a child and teach a valuable lesson, or they could encourage the child to be a better thief and not get caught next time.

What does sexual intercourse mean? Well if you are asking a single sailor that is overseas and has six months of paychecks to spend you will get a different answer than if you ask a couple that has been trying to have a child for several years and are deeply in love.

What is the purpose of asking these questions? What answers are you seeking? I suspect that any answer you get will only be argued into oblivion if it doesn�t meet your standards. And your standards are exactly that, they are yours.

I guess what I am saying is why don�t you pick an age, and then anyone that doesn�t meet your criteria is a failure. Your questions are subjective, much as the answers from any individual here would be.

A long time ago on another forum, Chris and I agreed to disagree on most issues, since then I believe we have both learned from each other and about each other. I believe we both eventually came to the conclusion that we are more alike than we realized. I think we also both concluded that agreeing to disagree on some issues is completely ok.

I sense in your posts a need to be �right� in any discussion or argument with respect to these boards. I get this impression as you feel the need to defend what you wrote to the death. I think the longer you read here and the more involved you become, the more you understand that it�s not about being right, it�s about doing right.

Now, this is strictly my opinion, take it or leave it for what it is worth, I do not intend to have a battle of wits or to inflame your sensibilities. I am, like you, simply expressing an opinion. This expressed opinion comes from the general �tone� of your posts and your replies, it comes from what my life experiences make me feel when reading what you wrote.

Please do not consider this a personal attack, it isn't. You can take ten different people here and have them read the same words, my guess is you will get ten different impressions and understandings of the same words.

This is one of the pitfalls of written communication, not being able to read body language or hear the tone in the spoken voice.

From a peaceful place�.

Dave

WHEW!!! Okay, after an hour of playing catch up...

IIC, just like the world, first impressions on these boards are very important. From reading your initial posts, I can see why people reacted the way they did. It wasn't WHAT you said, it was HOW you presented it. I can easily see why members here perceived your words as coming from someone who had the mindset of, "I know the path, here it is, do it". Now, if that's wrong, and from what you recently said, it is, then it's a wrong perception. However, that initial perception remained and was applied to your later posts. Right or wrong is up to the reader, but the reality is, it just IS.

There is NO one path to healing. We're all here because of affairs, and that is the ONLY commonality among all of us. You yourself said that you and your W's situation is unique. You know something? ALL of the situations are.

I agree with the others that your questions are very wide open. A question is, how does a question like putting a timeline on morality help in healing?

In a strange way, considering you're 8 months into this healing process, you're still a "newbie" in many ways. Interesting, isn't it? You see, it DID take you a long time to get to the point where you confronted. Then and only then did you start taking those positive steps in the healing process. In many cases, this confrontation comes almost immediately after D-Day and is pursued through to it's end. In other words, even though your W had the affair 35 years ago, you're still fairly new to the actual healing process. My D-Day was almost 8 years ago. Chris' was about 6 years ago. You seemed to be questioning at one point the methods we use on the boards and the way we do things here as it applies to healing. Not to pat all the mods, admins and members here on the back (okay, maybe just a little ), but I think our "healing success rate" is pretty damn good. If you want to compare figures, let me know... None of us here are professionals. However, some of us have traveled that path that you're now on, others are in the same place, and still others are just starting to take those steps. We ALL learn from each other. As I said before, it's the WAY you say things here that can be very important. (That's why we have posting guidelines, which I'm almost sure no one reads. If they read them, my opinion is that there wouldn't be as many of these conflicts of miscommunication)

And in that healing process, any and ALL questions, including the actual act, when it happened, where, etc., are relevant. You stated that you didn't want to walk through that fire again. I understand the answer, but many people (I was one of them) feel they MUST get all that information. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a different way of processing. As I explained to my W, when I look at a painting, I first get real close and examine every minute detail. I then step back and look at the whole picture. For me, knowing all those details first gave me a better perspective on the entire picture.

Being a 30 year martial artist, words like honor, integrity, morality, discipline and honesty aren't just words. They're a way of life. In that respect, I thing I know very well where you're coming from. However, one BIG lesson I learned in affair recovery is that it is quite naive to expect that same level of standards from anyone, and it's quite unfair to try and force them on anyone as well. And no, that's not an accusation, I'm just sharing a lesson I learned. As you said, that's all you're doing.

Cory

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

Nice post.

Jean

P.S. (and you too, Cory.  I could write more but I don't wanna argue anymore....) 

""""Also, we�ve not had a lifetime of anger and emptiness. We�ve had a lifetime of missed potential! There is a very big difference. Had either of us felt as you describe, angry and empty, we would not be together today.""""

And herein lies the differences from what most people who arrive here are dealing with. This is indeed what makes your situation special for the two of you but it doesn't represent how and when most people find us. Most people find us when they are in the impact stages of discovery. Most often they want to know if what they are experiencing is normal because it is so traumatic and devastating. To insist to these folks to not focus on the act but rather focus on the healing aspects is absurd. Many, especially new arrivals, are not ready to hear that yet, and far from it. For you to waltz in here unannounced and reluctant to give us your story and background and your insistence that you have discovered the answers to recovery based on your special story, well let�s just say at only 8 months of healing you may indeed need our combined hundreds of years of healing experiences further down the line.

I will not waste my time trying to answer your questions because all you want to do is debate. There is more important work to be done around here than debating the answers to your questions. If you were asking questions trying to understand something, your feelings in a given situation, emotions you are experiencing etc then I�d be glad to give you an opinion based on my experiences and what I�ve seen here on the boards. But since you more than not seem to have all the answers, you can answer your own questions. It seems that your answers will be the only answers that mean anything to you any way.

First off, I want to thank you guys for your responses. I�ll try to address a few things. My wife tells me that I respond to things in far too abrupt a manner. I always thought it was direct and to the point. That�s partly why she wanted to write her own section to my posts. It wouldn�t be the first time I was wrong today.

I just want to address one assumption and perception is that I am somehow projecting that I �have the answers�. Not only do I believe I do not, I wouldn�t be visiting if I felt I did. Also, since many have commented of the varied stages of recovery that the members are at, it seems to make sense to me there must be as many varied levels of discussions, would this also be correct? So, I would also guess that the discussions would normally be relevant to the stage your subject is currently at, might this be a correct assumption as well? If so then why would it surprise anyone, knowing even a modicum amount of our history, that I/we might bristle at the suggestion �are you sure your wife hasn�t had another affair?� and the like?

In fact, Tony, in opening this thread, made roughly 6 statements and rendered an opinion on all based upon his own assumptions. Tony obviously knew enough to create this thread from our discussions in �Predator vs Prey. I�m sorry, but I took offense to that as well as some of the following questions along the same vein. How well would any of you taken those kinds of statements? Hell, they weren�t even open ended questions; they answered them all for themselves. Hardly conducive to anything but defending ones self, don�t you think?

Also, in general, can someone explain your methods of healing? I thought this was a discussion forum, I didn�t know there was an actual process that this forum had for dealing with and healing from Infidelity.

OK, to your commentary:

�MM - 1/�@Its possible that humans become morally senitient at different rates and times. For some it is an evolving process that is developed due to lifes circumstances. we dont all wake up at the age of seven and think " well I know exctly the right thing to do in every circumstance. If you read C.S.�@Lewiss Mere Christianity, he says that we have an inherent sense of right and wrong. It is someithing integral to our psyche.

But like I wrote in an earlier post, lifes tragic experiences have a way of destroying the beauty of our spirits/souls. The world is filled with people whose psyche/spirit/soul that has been damaged to the point where the ability to make a healthy conscious choice is a non-existent.�

This is an excellent perspective MM. Then, if they are �damaged�, how are people �repaired�? Do people just go their entire life damaged goods? What helps them? If they don�t get help do they just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over? I�m sorry to be so na�ve but, though I struggle sometimes with my own self confidence, I never forget or lose who I am. It�s hard for me to understand.



�Dave - All of these questions are impossible to answer as each of us are unique individuals. The given age for your first three questions will vary with individuals as none of us are going to be faced with the same issues at the same age in life. The answers to those questions will be related to how we were raised, and the lessons we were taught in our upbringing.

A child raised by morally corrupt parents could recognize the bad behavior at an early age and pledge to themselves not to turn out like their parents. Or that same child could model themselves after the behavior they are daily exposed to.�

Actually Dave I think you did provide an answer � a great answer. And, it is an answer I can get my arms around � Upbringing. This really echoes the audio pieces that Laurie referred me to. I think I�m beginning to understand that there are maybe a majority of people who, as they mature, are very confused and have a very difficult time putting the pieces together to make up who they are and who they really want to be.



�Cory - IIC, just like the world, first impressions on these boards are very important. From reading your initial posts, I can see why people reacted the way they did. It wasn't WHAT you said, it was HOW you presented it. I can easily see why members here perceived your words as coming from someone who had the mindset of, "I know the path, here it is, do it". Now, if that's wrong, and from what you recently said, it is, then it's a wrong perception. However, that initial perception remained and was applied to your later posts. Right or wrong is up to the reader, but the reality is, it just IS.

There is NO one path to healing. We're all here because of affairs, and that is the ONLY commonality among all of us. You yourself said that you and your W's situation is unique. You know something? ALL of the situations are.

I agree with the others that your questions are very wide open. A question is, how does a question like putting a timeline on morality help in healing?

In a strange way, considering you're 8 months into this healing process, you're still a "newbie" in many ways. Interesting, isn't it? You see, it DID take you a long time to get to the point where you confronted. Then and only then did you start taking those positive steps in the healing process. In many cases, this confrontation comes almost immediately after D-Day and is pursued through to it's end. In other words, even though your W had the affair 35 years ago, you're still fairly new to the actual healing process. My D-Day was almost 8 years ago. Chris' was about 6 years ago. You seemed to be questioning at one point the methods we use on the boards and the way we do things here as it applies to healing. Not to pat all the mods, admins and members here on the back (okay, maybe just a little ), but I think our "healing success rate" is pretty damn good. If you want to compare figures, let me know... None of us here are professionals. However, some of us have traveled that path that you're now on, others are in the same place, and still others are just starting to take those steps. We ALL learn from each other. As I said before, it's the WAY you say things here that can be very important. (That's why we have posting guidelines, which I'm almost sure no one reads. If they read them, my opinion is that there wouldn't be as many of these conflicts of miscommunication)�

I�m sorry for the way I said things. I�m not sure how I could have said things differently though, I was immediately put on the defensive. With regard to your questioning the timeline; I see this actually as 2 issues. One is an outcome of parenting and establishing, within your children, the proper boundaries and the roots of their life�s principles. The second are the application of those principles as an adult.

In other words, what if you didn�t get those teachings from your parents? How much of a role in infidelity does this play? Actually, I�m beginning to feel I can really understand this. Parents (especially fathers) really create an environment to build self-esteem or to make sure it�s never in place.

Why do I look for something like this? Because in it�s absence it is difficult for someone like me not to see WS�s as just simply bad people. I know that is wrong, and I surely don�t want to view my wife that way, so I am seeking understanding. I still think there is more to the story and I believe �my answers� will come from talking to people like you.



�H2C - And herein lies the differences from what most people who arrive here are dealing with. This is indeed what makes your situation special for the two of you but it doesn't represent how and when most people find us. Most people find us when they are in the impact stages of discovery. Most often they want to know if what they are experiencing is normal because it is so traumatic and devastating. To insist to these folks to not focus on the act but rather focus on the healing aspects is absurd. Many, especially new arrivals, are not ready to hear that yet, and far from it. For you to waltz in here unannounced and reluctant to give us your story and background and your insistence that you have discovered the answers to recovery based on your special story, well let�s just say at only 8 months of healing you may indeed need our combined hundreds of years of healing experiences further down the line.

I will not waste my time trying to answer your questions because all you want to do is debate. There is more important work to be done around here than debating the answers to your questions. If you were asking questions trying to understand something, your feelings in a given situation, emotions you are experiencing etc then I�d be glad to give you an opinion based on my experiences and what I�ve seen here on the boards. But since you more than not seem to have all the answers, you can answer your own questions. It seems that your answers will be the only answers that mean anything to you any way.�

Actually H2C, I don�t want a debate, I want your down to the bone opinion! I was reluctant because I knew it would turn out exactly as Tony posted it, questions, accusations and assumptions. I didn�t want that. I simply wanted your opinions! And, yes, if I find them without forethought, without basis, excuse making or the like I will not hesitate to point that out. I want to learn, for real! I�m not interested in justifications or reasoning. I believe there is more and it is difficult to dig deep and try to sort that out. I still believe that, with the help from people like you, I really can come to some peaceful conclusions about this subject. Otherwise it�s never anything more than chaos and completely incoherent behaviors. It�s hardly easy to have faith in anybody under these conditions, certainly not for me.

To all:

I don�t mean to be difficult but I really do want to venture far beyond the metaphysical and I�d like to enlist your help to do so. Having a good solid basis for how we answer these kinds of questions can help us bring more order, acceptance and peace to our lives (at least for me). I also believe it will make me a better parent as well.

So please, press on!

Dave wrote

>>A long time ago on another forum, Chris and I agreed to disagree on most issues, since then I believe we have both learned from each other and about each other. I believe we both eventually came to the conclusion that we are more alike than we realized. I think we also both concluded that agreeing to disagree on some issues is completely ok.

I sense in your posts a need to be �right� in any discussion or argument with respect to these boards. I get this impression as you feel the need to defend what you wrote to the death. I think the longer you read here and the more involved you become, the more you understand that it�s not about being right, it�s about doing right.<<

I believe, in a nutshell, that summarizes "our method of healing":

We learn from each other by sharing our stories.

We are more alike than we imagine.

We sometimes agree to disagree.

Ultimately, it's about "doing right", and each person's view of HOW to do that is necessarily different.

Furthermore, we try to model the sort of non-combative discussion that is necessary to healing. If the reader (or listener) is so riled up by style and format of communication, then the message is lost. I think that's what Cory was trying to say to you. As one whose style is "direct" and sometimes "forceful" I must suggest to you that yours is beyond that, well into "combative", wherein you take offense and return it. I was once that stiff and brittle, and as Dave pointed out, engendered some strong negative feelings in others. Such is not often the attitude or approach of one honestly seeking help or guidance. It is the approach of someone with something to justify. And when I think back, I was trying to justify my "righteous anger" far beyond its useful life.

From my perspective, I must say I think your focus on your own parenting is misguided if you think that will heal your relationship with your wife. Insofar as it will provide good direction to your children, you are correct, except that your own children are grown and your influence is severely limited. From what little you've shared of your own story, your youngest child is, or is about to be, out of your home. That leaves you and your wife more or less alone to face your own issues. Focusing on grown children is, in my view, a means of avoidance.

Finally, I'll offer this. Without meaning to, we emulate some religions in approach to people who want or need guidance. ("Sharing our stories".) I am most familiar with the Christian tradition, and at its root are the words of Jesus as expressed in the Sermon on the Mount and the parables. Jesus told stories to teach. He seldom said "do this, don't do that", and many of his stories are ambiguous and multilayered enough to admit of various interpretations. As I understand certain aspects of Jewish tradition, such storytelling is also the main means of teaching (and perhaps the foundation of Jesus' approach). I cannot write knowledgably of other religious traditions. I am in no way suggesting that anyone here is a Messiah or prophet, only that we follow in those great storytelling traditions.

Chris.

Chris,

I'm not focusing on my parenting. I'm focusing on my wife's. Her world as a child was remiss of love, affection and the teachings that establish good roots. She is a very good woman and very devoted to me, our children and our lives together. Still, I often wonder had she not have been left to her own devices as a teenager, had some restrictions and some solid principle's built into her to guide her life, maybe she would not had to learn many things in such painful ways.

I grew up a staunch Catholic (problem #1) so, as you know there is little room for deviation from the Catholic church's teachings. Often it is said, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. I'm presuming (not sure) this is the "halo" after effect. From the day we were married I no longer was involved with the Catholic religion opting to accept my wife's faith (Christian) but still those staunch teachings stay with me. Many, not very flexible and, being a very literal person, I took them to my soul as life's guidance. The Ten Commandments still weigh heavily in my life.

I understand and agree that Jesus' teachings were often open ended questions left for the interpretation of his followers but I also believe they were based upon the principles of the ten commandments. It was much easier for close followers to understand the impact and differences between right and wrong. That is; relative to today's citizens of society.

Last night we talked about much of this thread but also the 2 audio pieces Laurie recommended. My wife grew up without family communication and so it is difficult for her to open up. But, last night (and much more over the last 8 months) she really opened up to what she felt from her relationship with her father and mother. It really was quite emotional for her. So, I may be wrong, but I'm beginning to see a totally different world for many that have grown up in the "typical" household where Mom does the parenting and Dad brings home the "Bacon". Father's in the 60's and 70's were often quite detached. It's impact? I don't know, but, I do know this, there was a very big impact for my wife. GT aluded to this in her post and just how devastating these "closed" relationships are.

So, I don't agree that focusing on our parenting is misguided, I believe our upbringing does indeed have a major impact on the issue of infidelity. To what extent I do not know. That's why I am asking these questions. I am interested in how people weigh in on the issue. Is it a valid perception? I do agree that focusing on mine (my parents) is indeed misguided. I was more than fortunate.

I guess we'll see how others process this information and write their opinions. Thanks for your response Chris!

"I'm not focusing on my parenting. I'm focusing on my wife's. Her world as a child was remiss of love, affection and the teachings that establish good roots. She is a very good woman and very devoted to me, our children and our lives together. Still, I often wonder had she not have been left to her own devices as a teenager, had some restrictions and some solid principle's built into her to guide her life, maybe she would not had to learn many things in such painful ways."

I had a horrible childhood which was completed devoid of any sort of love, affection or positive teachings. I was constantly criticized and frequently told I was not as good as my older sister (who was perfect of course). I was abused and had absolutely no self esteem. At the age of 12 I was touched sexually by a neighbour and when I told my mom was told to quit being such a liar and was beaten for even mentioning it.

I left at the ripe age of 17, moved in with a boyfriend whom I thought would be my cure-all only to have him rountinely throw me through closet doors because I dusted wrong, or looked at him the wrong way. Yet another boost to my self esteem.

Then I met my H. He would never physically harm me and seemed to defend me and keep me safe......ah the answer to one's prayers. Finally I was happy and started to develop some self esteem. Then he had an affair and all hell broke loose.

That being said, I didn't have an affair. In fact, I never have and I never will!! Sure childhood issues contribute in some way to why people may chose to have affairs, but it isn't the reason they have them. For a WS to say they had an affair because of childhood issues and stop digging at that point, I believe (in my mind anyway) is hogwash.

IIC...I've been reading this thread with much interest.  I have often wondered how and why people evolve the way that they do...and I do agree that going back into one's childhood provides a window to their 'soul'.

I'll give you some of my background.  I am the oldest of 5...born into a strict Catholic family, where both parents were teachers in the Catholic education system.  My parents had (and still have) a very fractured marriage...completely void of 'proper' communication.  Divorce is out of the question (1) because they are Catholic and (2) because they are both so stubborn that neither one will admit to being totally defeated in the marriage.  It's a joke...really.

My parents were total control freaks with us (their kids).  The expectations were high (as was the perception they gave of our family to the outside world)....and the amount of affection, love and unconditional support was low.  For the record, I am the BS in my marriage.

Despite this upbringing....there was some 'good' in it.  Early on, my parents raised us (when dealing with 'moral' issues) using 'thought', 'fear' and 'consequences'.  It was instilled in us that we had to think through our reaction/behaviour, otherwise we might react/behave in such a way that we would regret our actions....and possibly have to face the consequences of those actions.  We were not taught to fear taking chances....we were taught to think things through first so that we didn't end up having to dig ourselves out of a bigger mess.  Having said that...you probably won't find any of my siblings to be the type of people who would....ohhh - say...attempt skydiving (for example) .  We're not big risk takers.  But (other than not being very spontaneous) I have no problem living my life this way.

Ultimately, I can say with 100% certainty is that I would never have strayed from my marriage.  Anything that involves fear, risk and consequences, does not seem remotely worth it to me.

My H came from a loving background (and he is a very gentle man).  However, he was not really 'taught' about upholding one's morals.  No fear...and no real consequences.  In many ways (with my background being what it was) I fit the 'stereotype' (if there is one) for a WS more than my H does.  Yet here we are.

Despite all of the fall out from d-day...it was (in part) the values instilled in me by my parents that caused me to stay with my H when he said that he would do whatever it took to rebuild this marriage with me.  Despite my self-righteous attitude toward my H....I didn't want to regret making a permanent decision to end my marriage without at least trying to rebuild it.  I was as righteous as they come...and I have not made things easy for him!  But he has stayed and weathered the storm with me.

As a side note....the righteousness that I experienced with my H was somewhat troubling to me after a while.  On one hand, I felt morally superior to my H.  On the other hand, I believed that I was a better judge of character...and could not believe that I married someone who was so shallow that they would consider infidelity as an 'option' in life.  It wasn't until I dug a bit deeper about 'life' in general that I realized that many people are 'fractured'.  Many don't even realize how fractured they are until something catastrophic happens to them and forces them to either step up and 'fix' themselves or it fractures them further...to the extent that they will never lead fulfilling lives.

It is sad that we live in a society that doesn't focus enough on those who have really overcome some form of adversity to make better lives for themselves.  Instead, we are inundated with how hedonistic our society has become....how instant gratification is practically at everyone's fingertips.

I wish you well...

Kara

Kid, 1st both my wife and I are astounded by what you've had to endure. We're sincerely sorry you had to grow up this way and that you're relationships have been nothing more than a continuation of such abuse. Nobody deserves that.

I do want to point out that I am in total agreement with you regarding a WS that chooses to hide under such auspices. But, that is not what happened for us. My wife has taken complete responsibility for her actions, not only in our youth but for not being honest with me, over this one issue, throughout all the years.

It was Laurie�s recommendation to Focus on the Family (the two audio pieces) that had me considering and analyzing this issue. I would strongly encourage you to go and listen to it. It is actually not about infidelity at all, it is about what kind of impact, and the fallout associated, of non participating fathers.

I knew my my FIL very well (since I was 13 years old). In fact, I spent more time with him than did any of his 3 children. He is indeed a very closed person. I am totally aware of the life of emotional austerity my wife was brought up in and yet I never considered it may have been a detrimental factor in many areas of her life. For me life is a black and white world, it�s either right or wrong so how hard can it all be? Well, I�m learning that for many, if not most, life is a myriad of shades of Gray!

It is I (BS) who poses the question, not my wife.

Mrs. IIC here: I have been trying to tell him for years that the world and people are not necessarily black and white, that there are shades of gray so I cannot believe he just admitted that there actually may be some validity to the gray out there and we "gray people" can be right sometimes too!

God, she always manages to get the last word!

Hmmmm and that isn't even my full life story sadly. There is much more, but I am trying very hard now to focus on the positives in my life and not dwell in all that has been done to me or that I have had to face. I realized a long time ago that life is unfair. Does it still make me mad that some people seem to be able to sail through life as happy as can be without ever feeling the depths of pain and despair I have - yes it does - in fact sometimes it makes me furious.

But we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness. If I don't set out to make myself happy, nobody else will do that for me.

It does definitely make me leary of getting into another relationship. There is a guy that I like alot, and I know he likes me (no man talks for 6 hours on the phone to a woman he doesn't like lol) but I also know that I push him away sometimes as a way to protect myself from hurting again.

Life is too complex and I find it easier to hide underneath a rock and protect myself. I think all us BS's do that to some extent. Some are hiding from their spouses (if still together) and others are hiding from emotions we don't want to feel again in case they bite us in the ass.

Anyway I digress so back to my parents. I have a great relationship with my dad but he travelled alot for work when I was younger and has no idea what transpired when he wasn't home. I didn't talk to my mom for 2 years because I couldn't stand to look at her, now I just see her as a very unhappy and mean person. I decided that I have to accept she is my mother regardless of whether I like her or not and if something were to happen I wouldn't want to have not had a relationship with her. So I bit the bullet and reconnected the relationship with her. She thinks she was a wonderful parent btw and when I got my accounting designation she was right there clapping for herself at my grad when we gave all our parents our thanks for their support. She loves to brag about what I have become........like she had some hand in it.....not!!!

So my relationship with my mom is strained at best and will always be that way unless she decides she needs counselling and takes responsibility for her actions.

Hey ICC,

I'm catching up and well... she was a kid? Kid's do stupid things. But how do you ask an adult to get into the head of a teenager? Ask her. As a 17 yr old what were you thinking? Teenagers screw up. They always have and they always will.

My first question(s) to Mrs ICC would be "Why didn't you tell me then?" "And why are you telling me now?" Is this a religious thing? Is it because y'all wanted to be or thought you'd be the "only one and its not special anymore?"

She had sex with someone else as a teenager before you were married or (I think) was engaged?

If she pretended like you were the first and one and only I can see why you of upset and ticked off. Is this an issue of adultery or lying about not being a virgin?

Would you have not married her ICC if you knew back then? Is this about her...or you? I'm lost.

People hide things they are ashamed off... especially as kids. Who wants what they did as a dumb kid haunting them throughout life?

Maybe Mrs ICC should post on her own thread without worrying about hurting or being judged by you?

Tex

�As a side note....the righteousness that I experienced with my H was somewhat troubling to me after a while. On one hand, I felt morally superior to my H. On the other hand, I believed that I was a better judge of character...and could not believe that I married someone who was so shallow that they would consider infidelity as an 'option' in life. It wasn't until I dug a bit deeper about 'life' in general that I realized that many people are 'fractured'. Many don't even realize how fractured they are until something catastrophic happens to them and forces them to either step up and 'fix' themselves or it fractures them further...to the extent that they will never lead fulfilling lives.

It is sad that we live in a society that doesn't focus enough on those who have really overcome some form of adversity to make better lives for themselves. Instead, we are inundated with how hedonistic our society has become....how instant gratification is practically at everyone's fingertips.�

Wow Kara! What a great piece! Maybe the point of �instant gratification� should be made a much larger point in this discussion?

BTW, I felt that same way for many, many years. I know I was wrong because my wife is a very, very good, kind and considerate person. It made it very difficult for me to reconcile. Guilt is the word that comes to mind for me (kind of one of those Catholic things, maybe?) . In fact, in many ways, that's why I look to places like this.

IIC, you said, "Actually, I�m beginning to feel I can really understand this. Parents (especially fathers) really create an environment to build self-esteem or to make sure it�s never in place."

I'd have to kind of take issue with this statement. You see, I grew up in a single parent home, in low income housing, on welfare. I had my first fight at 4 and witnessed my first stabbing at 6. According to some people, I and my siblings should all either be dead or in prison.

The people here that know me, know that self esteem is something I DON'T lack! I'm also not lacking too much in the confidence department either.... LOL

The reason? It's NOT the number of parents, it's NOT which parent it is. It comes down to the QUALITY of the parenting, and in my opinion, that only works until the kid is about 12 (when they discover a social life). At that point, kids start making their OWN decisions, based on what has been taught before and what they are experiencing in the present.

Parenting is only ONE component of what makes you, you. Environment, teachers, friends, church (if you go), extended family, etc., all come together in an immense mosaic that becomes you.

That being said, the choice to have an affair is exactly that: A choice. If you're looking for what the roots are in your W's life that may have contributed to that choice, in an effort to ensure the wrong choice isn't made again, that's great. But I would have to ask this question: Why is it YOU doing the searching? When the light bulb finally went on in my W's head, it was she that started that search.

Don't remember the exact words, but you commented on not wanting to "hate" (dislike?) WS's. As I stated in my previous post, my ethical and moral standards are VERY high, and it came as quite a shock to me that my W didn't share those same standards. It was my mother who brought me back to reality. I was in the middle of a, "I can't believe she did this, I could NEVER do such a thing!" rant, and my mother said, "You know, there was only one perfect person in the history of the world, and HE died on a cross for the rest of us".

The lesson? We're all human, and being human, by definition we're imperfect. We all make horrible mistakes at times, some of which can hurt those we love the most.

Funny how this thread is turning, no?
Cory

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

Glad to see you and Mrs ICC stuck around.

Tex, we had been dating for 3 years and yes, without question I would not have married her had I known. I think for most that are committed and dating this is plain and simply a deal breaker. Does it really matter how old you are? Would you tolerate this behavior in your courtship?

Infidelity is a huge issue for me, still is. She told me 4 years later, in our 1st year of marriage, which is almost a marital death sentence in the 1st place. Even then she continued to lie to me and was so ashamed we didn't deal with it. It was just too difficult for her. I was left to deal with it on my own. I went 3 years without sleep and many, many years without trust. Let�s just say for a trusting well adjusted person 21 years of age this is a cataclysmic event that, to this day, I don�t know how I survived.

Then, I was faced with a choice of divorce or sticking it out. I was terribly dismayed she could have the gall to make life long decisions on my behalf. You see, for me, it wasn�t what she did (really I find it �fairly� irrelevant) it was what she subsequently did that has affected me the most and it continued for 28 more years until I couldn�t live with the relationship, as it was, any longer.

For me the moral part of it was not the betrayal itself, though it hurt and was indeed a moral concern, it was that she felt the absolute right to my life and that she felt �authorized� to take me. To this day I believe she had no such right whatsoever � zero.

As much as I love her, as much as I am committed to her, as much as I work to be our best, I will never accept this one issue. People, young or old, have the right to make their own choices. You want to have an affair, rob a bank, kill your neighbor I can do nothing about it, but, NOBODY has a right to TAKE anybody, nobody!!!

<Mrs. IIC here: I have been trying to tell him for years that the world and people are not necessarily black and white...>

That has been my thinking the past few weeks. WISE, wise words. Mrs. IIC, I admit, when I first came to the boards back in 2002 (I'm an old timer!), I was supremely self-righteous. My ex's A was something that I could always cling to: I was in the same marriage he was (not terrible, but we were living on different schedules) but I never cheated. I even thought of a revenge A, but dismissed it because then I wouldn't have anything to feel superior to him about. I wanted to always be "one up" on him. I kept score.

Just last week, my BF and I had a very heated discussion about things not being clearly-cut black OR white. He's very analytical, loves to debate a point to the death, and believes that things are either right OR wrong. The funny thing is, we were arguing about infidelity and everything he said had at least once come from my mouth, years ago.

Four years later - and more hours on this site than I can count - I can say that my thinking has changed: most things in life are shades of gray. The true acceptance of that opens us up to an entirely new world of possibilities. I have learned so much about what brings people to sites like ours. Plus, not everyone in the world thinks exactly as I do. We each have our own agendas, perspectives, and life experiences.

Just one question for you, IIC: have you FORGIVEN your wife? I know you're wrapping your head around the 'whys' of it all right now, but have you forgiven her? Here again, I got very caught up in WHAT my ex had done and didn't take into account a lot of the things that I had done to contribute to the way he felt. NOT justifying his A - not at all - but I can see how he might have felt. Fueled by the discussion about WS's lately, it was just earlier this week that I finally decided that I had to forgive him.

Edited - typos and missing words!

Monica

My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.

IIC...At what point were you faced with the choice of divorce?  Was it in the first few years after you were married...or was it more recent?  My other question is, what was it that jolted your wife into 'fixing' herself and dealing with all of those unresolved issues from her youth?

Kara

Editted to add:  I apologize if you have already explained this in an earlier post.

Cory,

I don't think there is one thing you wrote that I disagree with. I do think there are those that overcome and there are those that don't. I, like you, have difficulty with the words: I can't! (I think I can see that in you). Those words! they are the handicap of the human species.

At the same time there are those without the gene pool (personality type, disposition, motivation, etc.) to propel them to their potential. You are a fortunate man! I feel I am too, but, today we both are writing on a site where we're the BS in one of the most hideous acts a significant other can perpetrate upon another. I guess that may diminish, slightly, the notion of "fortunate", doesn't it?

Also, I really enjoy watching these threads take different and revealing turns. I for one feel I learn a lot about others, which in turn, means I learn a lot about me.

I guess we'll watch to see where it all leads then, eh?

<<<Tex, we had been dating for 3 years and yes, without question I would not have married her had I known. I think for most that are committed and dating this is plain and simply a deal breaker. Does it really matter how old you are? Would you tolerate this behavior in your courtship?>>>

Buddy...then the issue is with YOU. Right now. Not then. NOW. I know you are wondering and questioning everything. What has her actions shown since y'alls marriage?

Would you trade one second with her? She married YOU. She loves you.

People screw up...that's why we are people and not God.

She did a stupid thing as a kid and I bet whether you know it or not she's been trying to make it up since then. She's already ashamed. Don't beat her down so much to where you are superior that she can't come back.

She loves you. You love her.

What do you need from her? I bet she needs some forgiveness and whether she knows it or not...she needs to forgive herself about now. Doesn't mean you can't or don't talk about it.

Like I stated above..not all decisions are black and white and not all decisions are selfish. Not telling sometimes is based on a fear that alot of folks aren't ready to deal with. "here I am...raw and naked and I'm afraid you will judge me. go ahead..confirm my deepest fears". And ya know what ICC...judging is hard not to do. We do it everyday.

I know you are hurting. She loves you. Build from that.

Tex

Funny enough...I responded last week to a post from a remorseful WS that I (honestly) would rather not have known about my H's affair IF he was capable of working on his issues and becoming a more loving, committed partner.

On the other hand IIC, I see what you are saying.  You have only had a fraction of your wife for all of these years.  For whatever reason, she was not willing/not capable of resolving her issues and giving all of herself to you.  Now you feel a bit ripped off.  You now realize how much more fulfilling, intimate and loving your marriage could have been for all of these years.  In many ways, your wife held the cards in the marriage....except you didn't realize it until she 'woke up' and fully immersed herself in the marriage.

I have to say...even though I would have preferred not to know (if my H would have really concentrated on working on his issues)....honestly - he wouldn't have done that work, had I not held the front door open and said, "You either work on yourself and this marriage...or get the hell out."

Yeah - I think if at some point down the road he became a 'whole' person in our marriage (and I saw what I had been missing in him all of these years)...I would have felt disappointed that he couldn't have done all of this much sooner.

Kara

So, IIC, it comes down to this, if I understand what you wrote:

You feel cheated today, because your wife lied to you about infidelity years ago in order to keep your relationship. You believe she was absolutely wrong to lie to you in order to keep your relationship.

You felt separate from your wife for years because of what she did tell you about her infidelity. It weighed on you heavily, so heavily that you ultimately had to demand more information. So out of a 35-year marriage, you've had only 8 months of what you consider "true intimacy".

If all that's the case, it's hard for me to square the idea that your wife (or, to return to where you came on the scene, Laurie) should reveal anything about infidelity if s/he's willing to take full responsibility, change her/himself, and never repeat the behavior. Just look at the toll it took on your life to know anything of it.

Wouldn't it have been better for you to live your life in blissful ignorance of your wife's youthful indiscretion? She would have had to live with it, but you wouldn't.

Chris.

Ok, can we slow down a little? I can�t answer them all at once

�Monica - Just one question for you, IIC: have you FORGIVEN your wife? I know you're wrapping your head around the 'whys' of it all right now, but have you forgiven her?�

I never did forgive my wife until she decided to be forgiven. For many, many years I felt she just left me in Hell because she was too selfish to deal with it. When it all came up in January she finally had the tools to learn with me (ie sites like this). She read �betrayal through the tear stained eyes of the betrayed�. She says, until then she didn�t understand what she had done. From then on she did everything possible to provide us closure. Did I forgive her? I don�t �feel� like it was a cognizant effort on my part. She did it, it was her power. Boy, it was powerful indeed! Did I verbalize it to her? I sure did! Many times I have. I know she�s needed that.

�Kara - IIC...At what point were you faced with the choice of divorce? Was it in the first few years after you were married...or was it more recent? My other question is, what was it that jolted your wife into 'fixing' herself and dealing with all of those unresolved issues from her youth?�

I was faced with Divorce roughly 6-9 months into our marriage. I don�t track dates like many. I have no idea when D-day was. I think I answered the 2nd part above, didn�t I?

Still there was much more. As we started to heal we became closer than ever so we pursued all of our �faults�, mine and hers. The door to communication had finally been blown open and she is, for the 1st time in her life, feeling it all and dealing with it all. Actually, it�s really fun. Gosh, making love is like nothing we�ve ever had before!

Tex � You had all good questions but I�m thinking I answered them all, didn�t I?

One last thing though; I have NEVER wanted anyone but her! I�ve never even had an interest in another woman. I believe God put me here to love her.

Thanks everyone, good stuff!!!

Ah, my answer. She didn't really deal with it, and the pattern of selfishness continued through her life...which is what really affected your life so negatively.

Now, I understand. Though my wife's affair happened well into a long marriage, it was merely a symptom of that same kind of selfishness. Although she didn't have another sexual affair after the one I discovered, she remained separate from me and it was impossible to have a real relationship with her.

Chris.

�Chris - So, IIC, it comes down to this, if I understand what you wrote:

You feel cheated today, because your wife lied to you about infidelity years ago in order to keep your relationship. You believe she was absolutely wrong to lie to you in order to keep your relationship.�

Umm, I don�t know. I think I just felt it was unresolved. I hate stuff like that. I grew up taking things head on so when I tried to, back then, she would just crumble into tears. To keep our relationship? I still feel it was not her decision to make. It was mine.

�You felt separate from your wife for years because of what she did tell you about her infidelity. It weighed on you heavily, so heavily that you ultimately had to demand more information. So out of a 35-year marriage, you've had only 8 months of what you consider "true intimacy".

I don�t know, maybe. I know, not a good answer but when you�re with one person your entire life what do you have to compare to? We thought it was good but now, in retrospect, it�s not even close! So, with hindsight, I guess I�d say yes you�re right.

�If all that's the case, it's hard for me to square the idea that your wife (or, to return to where you came on the scene, Laurie) should reveal anything about infidelity if s/he's willing to take full responsibility, change her/himself, and never repeat the behavior. Just look at the toll it took on your life to know anything of it.�

This one is easy (for me at least). The truth, regardless of the pain, is still better than living a lie. For me it�s one of the Ten Commandments. I don�t believe it�s a matter of choice.

�Wouldn't it have been better for you to live your life in blissful ignorance of your wife's youthful indiscretion? She would have had to live with it, but you wouldn't.�

That she should be alone? That I should be in a protective bubble? We owe each other far more than that. Besides how can you truly be intimate when there are secrets?

No, to get to where we are today, I�ll take it all! The good, the bad and the ugly. Every last little bit of it. When I said "I do" I meant it and I meant it to the very last fiber of my being. I love her with all that I am! Not til death do we part, but rather, until the end of time.

IIC

You can ask anyone here I am not attacking you or your wife with my questions?
you would know for a fact if I were to go on the attack.
enough said about that now back to the points at hand.

You made these comments(1) (For two years we didn�t even go to bed together) and (2) For the 500th night I was in bed alone and I finally couldn�t take it anymore. I went down stairs and begged her to please spend some time with me.

No where do you state weather she was in another bedroom or in the living room watching the tube.

you responded with (Lastly, Tony, in �Preator vs Prey�, you thought I said we slept in different parts of our home. I didn�t say that! I said we went to bed at different times. Quite different! Please carefully read and don�t throw out inaccurate statements. If you want me, or my wife, to respond please stay on the mark!)

It is hard to be on the MARK! when the target is soooooooooooo vague in nature.

Please try to be more to the point with what you are posting. and maybe I won't take your statements wrong.









Tony

Does anyone else have the feeling we are dealing with only one person here acting as two???

This just doesn't read like a different person writing this.

[
Mrs. IIC; �I am frustrated by some of the ways people are communicating on this site. IIC was are not out to belittle how or what others are going through and neither am I. We are only are telling our story in the hopes to help others. Why do people so often miss the actual point of the message and go on to pick on the non-important issues at hand?

I'll provide you some background on our specific situation since it really is like no others that we've come across on any forum so that, in and of itself, has made this more unique and difficult � We have found no one that has been in our shoes. Maybe now you will understand who we are and where we have come from. It is our hope that you can learn from our mistakes and achieve what we are on the road to achieving because no one deserves to have 25+ years of the living hell of infidelity that IIC did.

I say IIC because in my mind it was an error in judgment that I had, vowed I�d never do again and moved on. But he was unable to move on. He couldn�t because we didn�t deal with it properly. We have only learned in the last 8 months what we needed to do in order to heal completely. It is still a process for us. There are still down days for both of us but they are fewer and farther in between.

It is true that my one single infidelity took place at the very young age of 17 (three years after we started dating) but just because we were so young shouldn�t have diminished IIC�s feelings and my obligation to address the problem. I truly thought it was my problem, my cross to bear. Back then I was never going to tell him. I swore to go to my grave with my terrible secret and learn from it instead. I thought I was doing a noble thing by not telling him. What did I know � I was 17. I thought "why should he have to hurt so much at the expense of my mistake?" I learned a valuable lesson early in life and I moved on. I never felt, and still don�t, that I should be grouped with other adults that have made the same misguided decisions. Still, the damage was very real and required that I address it. Regardless, infidelity is still infidelity. I�m proud of the fact that I was able to learn what was truly important at such an early age and have never once, since then, wavered.

This has been an unspoken problem over the course of our 35 years together. Trust was destroyed yet never resolved. When it came out in our first year of marriage I was afraid. IIC had grown up in a truly rare family of support, love, esteem building and conviction. His convictions were exceedingly strong even as a 14 year old. This made it even more difficult for both of us; for him to understand and for me to acknowledge and justify. So, I gave him no more than I thought he needed. I was not completely honest. So, it was swept away and I thought things were ok. It was gone, so I thought. Life would go on and we still would have many happy times. Careers, houses, children, hockey, softball, baseball, vacations and, yes, still much love. We had many, many happy times.

As years went by I would get little glimpses that the pain I levied at him was not really gone. He would get unexpectedly angry and we would be estranged for a day or two. I too would be angry, but still, I/we didn�t address it. After many years of angry episodes I became more detached, less caring. I thought �why can�t he get over this? I thought he was in need of counseling. We followed the classic pattern of marriages and we started to withdraw emotionally from each other. We started going to bed at different times. I was a night owl, he was a morning person. This estranged us further. This all changed one late night in early January of this year.

It was then he came down from bed, unable to sleep, wanting me, wanting just to spend some time together. I knew things were not right but I couldn�t put a finger on it or maybe I was just unwilling to address it. Well, he did. I knew something was terribly wrong (no, neither of us �snapped�) so I went snooping and I found an article called �Through the tear stained eyes of the betrayed� in his breifcase. Until I read that article I just had no understanding of how he had felt throughout the years. It was then I began to see the damage. I never understood that his biggest unresolved issue was with my willingness to lie and be deceitful all these years - frankly I didn't understand the damage it had done to me either. It made me incapable of having or feeling that I deserved a truly loving and intimate relationship. I've learned since that this is not true.]

if there really are two of you then login under two different logins not just one



Tony

Hi Tony, I guess I can see how you would misconstrue that statement regarding our bedtime hours. Maybe rather than assuming, I'd be delighted if you'd ask for clarification. I say it that way because I don't know when I'm not being clear to you. I only know that I am clear for me. Does that make sense?

We just got home from a holiday dinner with family. My wife is likely reading this up stairs. So, honey did you see this? Why don't you register and make a response?

I guess we'll see what she decides to do. Hmm, I wonder what she'll use for a log in name?

Come on Doll go ahead and make a post of your own.

Wow,

I tried to read this whole thread put it was just way way too long for me.

I would like to say a few things, I will keep it short - I promise.

First off, I have heard a lot of people here talking about morals, I was beat up pretty good on another thread by expressing what I felt were morals.  I was told that not everyone here shares the same morals or religious beliefs, so I shouldnt go there.  Maybe I'm miss-quoting the followup to my post but my point is, we are all different and we are all very limited as to what the "other couples" situation truly is and we are all trying togive advice, compassion, etc.  As long as we all know that we are all limited in our knowledge, simply because we are only able to use words, we are all strangers (for the most part), and, frankly, things can change from day to day in these situations, maybe we chould all try to take what others say just a little bit more on the lighter side.

I can very easily see where IIC is coming from, I feel he has a bit of my personality type.  I am very black and white, here's whats wrong, here's how you fix it, there, its that simple.  I tend to come accross harsh at times, just as IIC does.  Please try to overlook some of that.

I am not defending IIC, I am not defending myself, I am simply saying that with all our limited knowledge of one another we may all want to take things a little lighter.

Here's an odd analogy - I am the youngest of five siblings.  I have always prided myself on my approach to growing up.  Each of my siblings have good qualities, and obviously each has bad, I made a conscious effort a long time ago to try to always emulate their good qualities and just let go of their bad qualities, I felt that would make me a better person all the way around.  I did me no good to waste my energy trying to correct their bad qualities, I was busy enough with my own. 

I feel this forum could work in that same way.

 

Any thoughts?  Am I all wrong?

 

I want to thank all of you old timers and newbies, each has their own perspective - so please, everyone, respect that.  I am newbie and I would like to think old timers are just as green as me at this - since we are all limited in our knowledge of each.

Brian

Tony, ok, I'm hoping she's going to do this but I don't know if she will. I think she may feel a bit of discomfort with the whole thing. She seems ok when she wants to get involved on my posts but I just don't know. (By the way she was the one doing the typing, not me)

I think some of it is the idea of being a "WS". She doesn't feel she properly fits into this definition. Actually, I completely agree with her. A teenage transgression is surely nothing compared to a year long affair conducted by someone married for 20 years, is it? So why should she have to where the WS hat? It brings her additional shame and pain and I know she is uncomfortable with that.

Tony, I also want to make a mild protest about the "one person posting as two" statement. What could I possibly have to gain from that? I don't have to be here, I do so of my own free will. I also have nothing to lose either, do I? So, I don't know why someone might be motivated to do what you're suggesting. Furthermore, I don't know why someone would be suspicious of something like that because one might think "what would he/they have to gain?", yes, no?.

Oh well, I'm hoping she'll do so.

Tony

"Does anyone else have the feeling we are dealing with only one person here acting as two???"

For any of us to admit we might think that would be purely speculation, wouldn't it? I'm not sure what difference it would make either way

Let's not go there. It would only invite argument.

Charlie

IIC

We often use the term FWS for "former wandering spouse" but I'm not sure that would apply to your W as well. FWG (former wandering girlfriend)? or FWF (former wandering fiance)? I think your situation is unusual so pick what you want

Charlie

Oh, gosh Charlie you had me laughing!

Tony and anyone else who may have been wondering: Just to let you and any others know, there really is a Mrs. IIC and that IIC was not writing for me. I have followed many discussions on infidelity on this and other sites but have never actually posted, most likely because I was more comfortable from a distance and dealing with all of this has been very difficult for me. It has been very hard for me to open up to IIC because of what I did so many years ago, let alone talk about it with others. Neither he nor I had ever talked about it with anyone prior to January when he found sites like this. We were of the mind that we deal with our problems by ourselves. It never even dawned on me to seek out help like this and I don�t think it dawned on IIC either until he got to a point where he couldn�t take the aloneness he had been living anymore.

There had been many other things that were happening in IIC�s life that were not related to just this situation that caused him to become more and more depressed over the last 4-5 years (career and family health related stuff which we don�t need to go into here) and things just came to a head. I know our issue was the main one but there were other contributing factors in his unhappiness. The adage �Bad things happen to good people� most definitely fit him. He is one of the most honest, loyal and true people I know and he doesn�t deserve the s*** that has happened to him.

Enter January 2006 which really became D-day #2 (same infidelity - final truths). I thank God he was able to come to me that night in January because I also knew the last year or two we had been growing increasingly distant but I didn�t do anything about it because I had become angry and less caring due to how he had treated me sporadically over the years � His anger towards me started with what I had done to him when we were 17 � but it continued and festered within him not only because I didn't address it properly but more so because he felt I just hung him out to dry all alone and that I didn't care to help him through it and that I lied about it all these years by not coming totally clean. When I initially told him (1 year after we were married), I only told him then because that's when he started questioning me about my behavior 4 years earlier during the time that the indiscretion occurred. Remember, I was not going to tell him at all and now what was I going to do. We were already married.....

For me, I had realized immediately after the indiscretion, the gravity of my horrible error in judgment and the damage this would do to our relationship so I vowed then to change my behavior, put a stop to his advances and never stray again, which I did - all at 17. Not that it makes any difference, because in the end I was the one that made the choice to do what I did - I could have and should have said no, so I'm not making excuses even though some will say I am including IIC (predator vs. prey)(I just want to put the facts out here) but the guy was 5-8(?) years older than me, one of my bosses and was married (he/it disgusts me now)-What was I thinking? I wasn't! I let flattery get the better of me and cloud my judgment - I knew better than this but I became infatuated anyway. He was an adult and an authority figure to me and had no business coming on to me in the first place. I didn't go after him (yes I flirted with him like so many teenage girls do) so if he would have acted like a boss/adult should have, I don�t believe it ever would have happened. I'm sure I wasn't the only teenage girl that he charmed - I felt used yet I knew I was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong so now I just felt stupid. Why couldn't I have just stood up for myself and said NO? Why did I think so little of myself to allow this to happen?

.....So this incident, in my mind, was already way over and done with 4 years prior so I tried making excuses and I failed miserably. I panicked and wrote him a letter and waited for him to come home. I was petrified of his reaction and didn�t know what I was going to do or say. I truly did not think I deceived him into marrying me - (it didn't even dawn on me then that I was making a decision for him - I felt since it was over and done for me, why would I hurt him with this (wrong, I know and this has been his biggest obstacle in coming to terms with staying with me because of the way he feels about my taking that right to make his own decision away from him - it is a very real dichotomy for him, which I understand now, that I did make that decision for him, but at the time I didn't even think like that - I just loved him and wanted to be with him. Talk about two completely different ways in which people think.

We did talk about it some back then, he asked questions, I answered them (not completely honestly) and eventually we went on with life. I thought we were pretty much done with it - I didn't know until tonight that he didn't sleep for three years and I didn't know he really thought about leaving me back then - we had so much going on (gutting/rebuilding a house, work injury/loss of job for him as well as him starting a new career, and this situation to deal with all within 3 years of being married. Looking back, I don't know how we made it through everything - I think that we were just meant to be together. It began to come out in very subtle ways over time � we just never really addressed it. He would become verbally abusive/angry out of the blue for something unrelated and in turn I would become emotionally withdrawn/abusive towards him. Neither of which is defendable but I did understand where it was coming from and knew every time it happened it was because of my infidelity. What I didn't know until recently was that it was happening because of my lack of addressing it and not making him feel whole again. He flat out thought I didn't care and that wasn't the case at all - I felt so ashamed that I could barely function when it came up that I would just retreat, which made matters worse. I felt he was justified when he got angry because I had done this to him, but yet it made me angry so I punished him for it by withdrawing even more. The more he got angry, the more I felt that he was just trying to punish me and I felt that he was going to make me pay forever for a youthful mistake. It became a lose/lose situation. We didn't even understand each other and we couldn't talk about it when it did come up because we were both hurting so bad over it. We became resentful of each other and we each thought the other was being insensitive to our own needs. I didn't even realize until recently how much what I had done had hurt me as well. Now that we are where we are at, we both are continuing to heal each other.

So, I am relatively new to this kind of openness so please bear with me if I struggle somewhat. Since this thread keeps going and there seems to be so many questions, and I was asked to log on separately from IIC, that is what I am doing. I am still, after all these years, trying to find the answers myself and am not done with that journey. It is not easy trying to go back as an almost 50 year old to get in the head of my 17 year old self. How does one do that after growing, maturing, living, parenting, loving, etc.? God � I�m not that same person � I don�t even know her and I especially don�t like her.

If you have more questions, I�ll try to answer them. I do want to add that our life has not been one of years of misery and no happiness � we have had many happy years and have a great family life � this one thing has just always been on the back burner just waiting to boil over � now we are cleaning the stove!


To IIC - I know I have told you privately, many, many times how sorry I am but I want to tell you again, I am sorry from the bottom of my heart and I love you more than you will ever know! May you one day soon be whole again - and may we be better than we were before - I will always be there to help you. Love, your soulmate4Life.

IIC, you said, " I, like you, have difficulty with the words: I can't! (I think I can see that in you).

GOT ME!! LOL I HATE that word, "can't". Matter of fact, when I was teaching Tae Kwon Do classes and someone used that word, they would have to apologize to the class for swearing and do ten pushups on their knuckles. As I would tell them, "If an old, fat, blind guy like me can do it, you have no excuse!"

You also said, "You are a fortunate man! I feel I am too, but, today we both are writing on a site where we're the BS in one of the most hideous acts a significant other can perpetrate upon another. I guess that may diminish, slightly, the notion of "fortunate", doesn't it?"

This is where we differ in opinion, but I'd rather start a new thread with my thoughts....

Cory

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

An excellent post, and its all summed up with "we have had many happy years and have a great family life � this one thing has just always been on the back burner just waiting to boil over � now we are cleaning the stove!"

Those words and the situation I can relate to, it was three months after catching my wife in an affair with my (ex) best friend in July of 2002 that I discovered another affair that took place in 1997 during and over our 2nd anniversary.

Cleaning the stove is a tough job, with all the crap that has been repeatedly baked on over the years.

I believe you will find over time that you have support, help, and understanding on these boards. None of us can walk in your shoes, but we have certianly walked on the same portions of the path you now find yourself on.

Additionally for both of you and everyone here, as difficult and as blunt as some of the points in this thread became, look at what we have all learned about each other.

All of us have learned how other members word posts and replies, all of us have learned more about each other. Understanding is the key to offering support and sharing ideas and information. All of us in one way or another, and some of us more strongly than others have discovered that we read words, or doubt into situations...i.e. that one person posting for both of you. I have my own feelings on that and didn't doubt there were two of you and will leave it at that.

I guess all I can offer is due to the baked on layers of stuff on and in the stove, roll up your sleeves, put on some gloves, grab the oven cleaner and SOS pads and take turns cleaning the stove. That way neither of you gets tired or frutstrated by the process.

Good luck, and for a first post here SM4Life...it was a real winner!!

Dave

Well, I guess you have it all now. Still, I'm sure I could have posted this as my non-existent mate, eh? Now you can see why I've said "we're past all the deeds", because we are.

Cory, I will address your new thread yet today. We�re going to Colorado for a �by ourselves vacation� that includes attending a wedding on Saturday so we�ll be �off the air� from tomorrow morning through Sunday. Do you know, since having children, we�ve not had one vacation just the two of us. My Lord, that's 23 years, at least! Man, I think I�m seeing we�ve been really lousy at propagating �us� without �them�.

Dave thanks for your kind words to my wife. She really does need encouragement to continue to open up and talk about herself. This again, I believe, is one of those upbringing side affects. I�ve been with her since we were 14 and she still finds deep conversation with me difficult let alone with a bunch of strangers.

I also accept much blame in our inability to properly communicate. I should push harder for her to �reveal� herself, but, how hard do you push someone when they don�t like it? It remains a conundrum for me. I want so much more of her than she willingly gives. I do feel gratified when I push her hard enough and I know she �feels� better when I do but it also represents a tremendous trauma for her. That�s not easy to do to someone when you know just how hard it is for them.

To: Soulmates4Life (cool name she chose, don�t you think? I like it anyway cuz that�s me she�s talking about!)

Lastly, my love, you�re wrong! I do feel whole. For me, this trauma is over. You have worked so hard to take it away. Some of my problem is that it�s been there for so long that old scars don�t quite heal like new wounds. I am also interested in learning more about what you can�t answer deep within you. Again, it�s not what you did (please quit that), it�s how you chose to handle it from then until January 4th.

I don�t feel the need to dwell but I do feel the need to discover. These fine people here may well be able to shed light on those issues for us.

As I�ve said; until the end of time, my love, until the end of time!


For all;

I want to raise one more point, �Connection�. In fact I�m not sure it�s even the right word. Let me explain; I believe there are a myriad of relationship types. Few of us even recognize what our relationships are capable of. I know we�re still in discovery. So, how do we achieve a togetherness we�re capable of if there really is no �model� for what we could expect or work toward? How far can we go with this?

At this point the �connection�, for lack of a better word, is represented as a spiritual bond beyond the physical. I�m hoping to enlist some opinion, you too Doll! For example; I know now that when we make love I literally can feel her emotions reach for me and pull me into a place where we join, not physically, but spiritually. I feel like our minds intertwine and literally lock together as we physically express what the spirit is doing. A oneness as never before. It�s not an �exciting� place but a totally �peaceful� and surreal place. I know I'm not representing this well but I know it�s there, it does exist!

So, with those ideas in mind, how far can we, you, go in the process? It�s beyond being naked, beyond bearing your soul, beyond two souls uniting as one. How do we foster and propagate such an ideal?

I have never been able to get/have enough of her. I�m not talking about the �number of times� per week or the usual babble. I want to reach inside and have the ecstasy of feeling what she feels and her to feel every last bit of me. I think maybe we�re, after all these years, very close but how close? I don�t know.

I know this is hard for many of you in failed marriages. For that I am sincerely distressed, but, for those of you successful at reconciliation, where are you in your journey? Have you been able to go far beyond?

Please share with us your experience, how you got there, what does it feel like and do you even know that you�re there?

Some of us who left failed marriages have moved on to new relationships.

I think I understand exactly what you were trying to express about finding oneness in a relationship. (It IS much better than arguing about having sex three, or two, or no times a week.)

IIC wrote >>I also accept much blame in our inability to properly communicate. I should push harder for her to �reveal� herself, but, how hard do you push someone when they don�t like it? It remains a conundrum for me. I want so much more of her than she willingly gives. I do feel gratified when I push her hard enough and I know she �feels� better when I do but it also represents a tremendous trauma for her. That�s not easy to do to someone when you know just how hard it is for them.<<

Instead of pushing, try pulling. Pushing never worked for me, except to precipitate separation and divorce.

Chris.

I totally agree with Chris. The harder you push the more you show your own personal self esteem issues and the more you lose respect, in her eyes and likely in your own. You cannot control another person whether you want to or not. If they chose to communicate, or chose to clam up is their own personal choice. All you can do is create a safe environment where they feel loved and secure. As much as sometimes we want to, we cannot change another nor can we make them face things they aren't willing to face.

Kid

Chris and Kid, how do you pull? With questions?

IIC,

Very gently.

That's an acquired skill for those of us whose main method of communication is "direct".

Chris.

<<If they chose to communicate, or chose to clam up is their own personal choice. All you can do is create a safe environment where they feel loved and secure. As much as sometimes we want to, we cannot change another nor can we make them face things they aren't willing to face.>>

Boy you said it Kim!

People mostly clam up out of fear...fear to be themsleves, fear to say what is really on their minds, fear of what others will think of them, fear of being vulnerable, fear of rejection and pain, fear of intimacy, and so forth.  Many of our fears are unfounded and based on misconceptions that we have not only of our true selves but of our partners as well. Isnt it better to face these fears and allow ourselves to be known? The only way to truly know someone else is to let yourself be known instead of hiding from them. I admire anyone who has the courage to face their fears and let themsleves be known to another...as it is not without risk to oneself to be so vulnerable. Without vulerability true intimacy cannot exist.  To know another and to be known by another is truly one of the greatest gifts life has to offer us while we are here on this Earth.

Take Care...Carol~

Carol, that was one of my frustrations with my W early on. She would NEVER disagree with me. I could always tell when she disagreed, because she'd clam up. I'm one that likes a good debate. However, because of what she went through with her first H, she was "trained" to not argue. If she did, she would get whacked.

It took her until about two years after D-Day for her to finally realize that I'm NOT her first H, that it's okay for her to disagree with me, and to voice those disagreements without fear of repercussions.

Sometimes, I wonder if that was a good thing...

Cory

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

Exactly Cory...she was trained to fear...and she had the misconception that you would also hurt her physically because her first H did.  But it is a good thing she has learned to open up to you, even if she is a little too open from time to time, lol

Take Care...Carol~