This is from IIC in another thread: "You are a fortunate man! I feel I am too, but, today we both are writing on a site where we're the BS in one of the most hideous acts a significant other can perpetrate upon another. I guess that may diminish, slightly, the notion of "fortunate", doesn't it?"
A couple of thoughts here. One, when you use the word, "fortunate", to me it's how you look at things. You see, after my W's affair, we held hands and walked through the fire together. We came out the other side, and we are now happier, smarter, and more in love than we ever were. Am I happy the affair itself happened? HELL no! But in dealing with the fallout created by the affair, it brought our relationship to a level that neither one of us ever thought could happen. In THAT way, we ARE fortunate. In a VERY strange and warped way, if the affair didn't happen, we wouldn't have been forced to take those long hard looks at ourselves and our marriage.
Let me re-quote part of the above again: "today we both are writing on a site where we're the BS in one of the most hideous acts a significant other can perpetrate upon another."
This is a subject that comes up now and then, and it's ALWAYS good for a discussion. Was the affair a personal attack against you?
In my opinion, the answer is no. Why? I'll give you a few things to think about, knowing ahead of time there are people who will heartily disagree with me...
1. We talk many times here about a WS's affair as being one of the most, if not THE most, selfish thing a person can do. By definition, when you're being selfish, you're thinking only of self. You're not considering anything beyond that selfish act. They may come up with rationalizations, but the bottom line is, they're trying to meet unmet needs. The needs themselves may be real or perceived, but either way, it's not you involved in the decision to have the affair.
2. When our spouses/significant others were having the affair, we were not in the equation. It's a blow to our ego, but we must come to terms with the fact that, during the affair (and during the decision to have one), we were not considered. If we had been, our partners would have asked our opinion or brought up the subject. "Honey, I'm thinking of having an affair. Is that okay with you?" Now, IF this conversation happened and you said okay, you're on your own..
3. And this may be a bit rude, but it's a question I've asked many times. Ask yourself this question: While your partner was boinking the OP, do you REALLY think that all they were thinking about was, "I'm only doing this because I know it will hurt ****"
Again, if the answer is yes, I would wonder why you're still married...
So in my mind, I view the affair as NOT a personal attack. It wasn't something that was done "to me". It was a stupid, selfish act perpetrated by someone who didn't consider the aftermath, didn't consider what would happen if they were caught, didn't consider the feelings of others, etc.
It was a stupid selfish act that caused a nuclear explosion in a marriage, but it was NOT personal. It was all about my W, and her unmet needs (whether real or perceived). It wasn't about me.
And it wasn't about YOU either.
Okay, have at it!!!
Cory
The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus
“Cory - A couple of thoughts here. One, when you use the word, "fortunate", to me it's how you look at things. You see, after my W's affair, we held hands and walked through the fire together. We came out the other side, and we are now happier, smarter, and more in love than we ever were. Am I happy the affair itself happened? HELL no! But in dealing with the fallout created by the affair, it brought our relationship to a level that neither one of us ever thought could happen. In THAT way, we ARE fortunate. In a VERY strange and warped way, if the affair didn't happen, we wouldn't have been forced to take those long hard looks at ourselves and our marriage.”
First of all I did say “slightly”, right? I did indeed mean this in the literal sense. Think about it; though infidelity has touched all here, what, exactly, has it comprised of your life? Your life together, that is? Maybe, if you really think about, 1% of your “living”? Probably measurably less, don’t you think?
That it has occupied a great space in our thinking only acknowledges that you, I ,we, have not effectively dealt with it. I mean our spouses did choose to stay, right? For you WS’s, you made a choice right? So, it should be all but done and forgotten, right? Why isn’t it? I feel it’s because we’re not finished. I would guess “finished” means something different for everyone but, whatever it is, you, I, us, have lingering unresolved issues. The “art” appears to be in the knowing rather than in the lingering, isn’t it?
Then the subject would, hopefully, shift to what can WE do to dissolve this demon. Does this make sense?
“Let me re-quote part of the above again: "today we both are writing on a site where we're the BS in one of the most hideous acts a significant other can perpetrate upon another."
This is a subject that comes up now and then, and it's ALWAYS good for a discussion. Was the affair a personal attack against you?”
I’ll not address every statement because that’s what they are Cory! And, not to offend, but your statements/questions are indeed about the deed itself not about the lost connection, the reconnection, the rediscovery, etc. As long as we cannot move beyond the deed and on to unmet needs (or other) is it really possible to move on?
A personal attack? I don’t agree with any, professional and non-professional, on this issue. That they (WS) did not think of their partner prior to allowing boundaries to be crossed WAS indeed a personal attack. In that respect it was indeed done to you.
All of this could be snuffed out prior with proper boundaries and adequate commitment before it all was out of control. It really is just that simple.
I’ve been at two parties specifically and actually had women, in front of their husband’s and my wife, asked me to take my shirt off. I’m not kidding and my wife will verify this. At that point I had a choice, didn’t I? Entertain it or defuse it, right. I could have engaged an affair right then and there, couldn’t I have?
God my wife was pissed off! Still not a word needed to be spoken. I acted as if nothing was said! I simply ignored it. So, what if I felt I needed affirmation or some kind of ego boost, or I was missing something at home and actually propagated this behavior. You really believe my wife wouldn’t have perceived it as a personal attack?
My willingness to do this would have surely been exactly that, a personal attack. So, you tell me, isn’t it the lack of presence of ones spouse in the thinking process, that allows this, really the culprit? So, I make the case to you, and anyone else, that it is indeed a personal affront to the BS. Look, you don’t have boundaries for yourself, do you? You have them for the one you’re committed to, don’t you?
I realize I go against conventional wisdom here but I want someone to refute such logic; tell me what’s wrong with this line of thinking? Cory?
Lastly, you’re right it wasn’t about you at all and, in my mind, THAT is what is most hurtful. When you’re committed you no longer have the right to act as only one. You have an obligation to act in the best interest of two! If you don’t want that then you have every right to be only one again – it’s called a divorce, breaking up, dissolution or whatever your word is. In the absence of any, it is indeed a personal attack and an act of selfishness that precludes any and all virtuous behavior, at all!
If it makes it easy to accept, go ahead, you can have this line of thinking but for me personally, I can’t act in that manner and I expect the one committed to me to act in kind. If it can’t be so then she/he is obligated to take action to resolve for what’s right or dissolve the relationship, period.
Sorry Cory, but that’s how I feel. I don't mean to preach or say that I know I am only presenting my prospective on the issue. None of us live on an island and we are never out there alone.
I've often told my son that "no matter what you think I am always there with you, no matter what you choose to do, no matter how badly you choose to behave, no matter how much you want something, no matter what you think you need, you are making a decision for all of us, your mother, for me and your sister. It will all reflect on us. Son, you are never alone!"
Take of this what you want then throw away the rest, but I truly believe in nobility. I do take responsibility for all that I can. I'm proud to do so.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Sep 5, 2006 2:21 PM
IIC, you said, "That it has occupied a great space in our thinking only acknowledges that you, I ,we, have not effectively dealt with it. I mean our spouses did choose to stay, right? For you WS’s, you made a choice right? So, it should be all but done and forgotten, right? Why isn’t it? I feel it’s because we’re not finished. I would guess “finished” means something different for everyone but, whatever it is, you, I, us, have lingering unresolved issues. The “art” appears to be in the knowing rather than in the lingering, isn’t it?"
This is where you and I are on very different levels, IIC. The only time I think of the affair is when I'm here, reading and posting, and when I do, the thinking is done without any real emotions anymore. It's more like remembering scenes from a movie that had a big impact on you. Many people grieve the loss of the marriage and the life they once knew. I did too. However, I realized that this grieving was misplaced, as that life and marriage weren't as good as it should have been, and with enough work and commitment, it could be better, MUCH better. My only regret, and I share this with many people, is that it took the affair to bring this simple lesson into the forefront. This is why I'm of the opinion that the book, "Monogamy Myth" should be a standard gift at weddings. May as well start a new couple off on the right foot...
My W and I have long ago moved past this entire thing. So, why am I here? Because I made a promise to someone who was instrumental in saving my marriage (Peggy Vaughn) that I would pay it forward and help people just as she helped us. The affair doesn't define our marriage or consume our thoughts. Heck, the only reason why I remember my D-Day is that it coincides with a significant day in history: December 7th.
I’ll not address every statement because that’s what they are Cory!
Exactly. I said at the beginning I was stating my opinions.... Something wrong with that? I guess so, if you don't agree with them...
And, not to offend, but your statements/questions are indeed about the deed itself not about the lost connection, the reconnection, the rediscovery, etc. As long as we cannot move beyond the deed and on to unmet needs (or other) is it really possible to move on?
I can see where you got that from, but the main point can be applied to any part of the pre-affair time or the affair itself. The lost connection is a pre-affair thing reconnection and rediscovery come after. The point I'm trying to make is that people DO get hung up on an affair being about them, and it's not. Many times, the ego gets in the way and a BS thinks they are supposed to be in the thoughts of their spouse 24/7, and they take it very personally when they find out the reality. Slavery was abolished in 1863 here in the states. You don't own your spouse, and they don't own you. No one is required to wrap their life around another.
A personal attack? I don’t agree with any, professional and non-professional, on this issue. That they (WS) did not think of their partner prior to allowing boundaries to be crossed WAS indeed a personal attack. In that respect it was indeed done to you.
So what you're saying is that your spouse was UNselfish and included you in the affair? The affair is either a selfish act, which by definition means the WS was only thinking of themselves, or it wasn't. That's one of the very few black & white areas of an affair.
And IF you entered their thoughts, I'm sure it was quickly followed by a thought that rationalized or justified their own behavior, i.e., "He/she won't ever find out", "I'm not being treated well by him/her, so I deserve this", "OP loves me more than my spouse", etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Don't try to convince me otherwise. Better people than you have tried...
Not to sound snooty (snotty?), but seriously, at almost 8 years past D-Day and in a marriage that is the most incredible relationship I could dream of, I stand as living proof of my opinions. We followed our path, and it worked for us. And no, I'm not saying that path will work for everyone. My W and I both looked into the dark corners of our souls, brought everything out in the open and dealt with it. Being a self aware person, it was a bit easier for me, but my W stepped up and did it too. We started with a clean slate. As Kat says, the house was destroyed, but the foundation was still there. We rebuilt upon that foundation, and our new house is in much better shape than the old one.
Cory
The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus
