This is the point where the Minnesota and Mississippi Rivers become one. I took the photo this evening.

Looking up the Mississippi side.

Forgiveness is recognizing what non-forgiveness really is, and then making all of those matters ok within myself.

Personally, I'm okay with non-forgiveness. Sometimes brokenness is part of the human experience, and "closure" never comes.

Sometimes the point where two rivers meet is a swirl of clear and muddy eddies mixing together, and the result downstream is always a little less clear than upstream.

Life seems to be that way too.

Chris.

ps. I love fall sunsets and sunrises, when the air is crisp and clear and the sky fades from orange on one horizon to that deep purple velvety color on the other. Those are beautiful pictures, RW.

RW - Gorgeous pix... as always. You should make postcards!

Monica

My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.

<<<<and "closure" never comes.>>>>

Closure is a fantasy. Closure does not exit, it is an artificial concept we constructed in order to give us permission to move on. Acceptance of what was and is no longer is something to thrive for and comes from within, the closure that some of us may look for comes from without - as if something magical could be GIVEN to us in order to move on. [my not so humble opinion ]




And as you walk you make your path Kat

I have to agree. I struggled for so long looking for this magical closure and thinking I was robbed of it. When I stopped looking I realized I had already found what I sought. It isn't a magic pill, it isn't something that somebody else gives us, it isn't even something we give ourselves. But one day we just wake up and think wow I am at peace. At least that is kind of how it worked for me.

K

RW - beautiful picture........but how come the leaves aren't totally changed yet......LOL

It must be alot colder here.....our leaves have already changed and most have fallen off.

Where two rivers meet...I thought you were going to be talking about relationships...ones that are forming into one...wrong.
This post interests me because I have been struggling so with wanting to NOT awaken in a state of "discontent"....I am discontent, not necessarily unhappy but discontent. I want so badly to recapture my life and feelings about myself BEFORE I fell in love and lived the life with my alleged partner. I recall that time in college...my junior year...not a worry in the world (not too much stress) and I was building a future in my mind. I was going to graduate from college...get a degree...move to Maine and open a child care center (preschool...terminology back then). THEN, I fell in love. AHAHAHAHHAHHA......it again goes back to what that relationship did to give me energy. At this point in my life, the energy is gone. I awaken each morning dreading the day....the part of trying to "fake" it through my contentment with life. I don't consider myself a victim....I simply am divorced struggling with wanting to be that "me" I was in the 60's. I don't know how to get back there. I don't know how to get back to that time of my life when I was in control (not that there is anyone else in control of my life now...only I am, but I can't get the "sick" sad feeling out of me), where I had a definite plan for the future (it is not the future I dread today, but the present). I want to celebrate my life, my accomplishments, my feelings of harmony and contentment...I don't have those anymore. Is this part of the process of recovery? "Waiting" for this to happen? What does SAge PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY have to do to get there? Kat, you mentioned that you simply awakened one day and it was there. Is that true? Was it the point in time that you could "step back" and look at your current life more objectively? Again, I don't have a worry in the world. Finances are okay, children are great, wonderful supportive social network of friends, safe and secure in my neighborhood....Soooooooooo, what am I missing here? Why can't I get that feeling of contentment? I want to lasso that from within...I don't want anyone else but ME to be able to do that for me. What does Sage have to do that she is not doing? I don't think I am engaging in "pity parties"...it's not like me to do that. For those of you who know my story....what am I missing? I do go out. Force myself to be with friends. Think I am a decent person. Attend to others...chidlren and friends...something is not there. Is it love? I don't want to have to depend on the notion that someone has to be crazy about me for me to feel good about myself....or at least, feel content. I do feel good about myself..there is nothing else in life that I need to do for me except move on and embrace the wonderful life I have.
Just some thinking....those of you who describe yourselves as "moving on" and being in a better place...what does that mean?

Kid,

The colors are everywhere now. I took a 10 mile hike (alone) last Thursday in my fav state park. Whoah~~that was visual.

Sage,
I thought the title to this thread might suggest some metaphor thinking. Chris took the bait. Actually, rivers can split too.

It's funny how we can get the feeling that we can't ever go home. That's my life now. I'm 'out here' and can never return home again. Ever. So now what? What is my future? Where? How do I do it now? Waiting.

Some days are all ok and busy. Some are quite painful. Overall, the balance is easier to take. I can ride out the bad times with more confidence. Maybe it's just a slow build. I certainly hope so.

I was out walking tonight at my parents place. They live on a hill overlooking Slate River Valley. Across the hill you can see brilliant red maple leafs and many variations of yellow, red, orange and green. Unfortunately I forgot my camera but the view is truly magnificent. It will only last a few more days probably - as soon as we get any wind or rain the leaves will be gone. I do love this time of year up here......such a pretty sight.

Walking alone in your favorite state park - I hope you had a bear whistle or some pepper spray with you!! The bears up here and hungry this year since the berry crop wasn't that great. I have ran into several, but luckily was inside a vehicle at the time.

It is supposed to be in the 70's here tomorrow. That will be the warmest day in a while. We had puddles frozen over last night it was so chilly. Sadly I have to work all day and have a board meeting most of the night, so I won't get any time to enjoy it.

K

LOL RW. You KNEW I'd take the bait.

Sage, my experience with a divorce has been opposite yours: I left my marriage with plenty of worries, few material things, no money, and yet I've been more content than ever in my adult life.

I didn't try to recapture my last "unpressured" time (in my case, the late 70's) because it's NOT the late 70's anymore, and I'm not 20 anymore. (I won't find and don't want a 20-year-old woman to romance, either.) I've been figuring out what my life can be made into at this late stage, and with my career change, one big piece will be in place; that change took 2 and a half years to germinate and sprout. Now there is someone special in my life, too, but it was my contentment, forward-looking approach and positive attitude that attracted her (she says). That's another long-term/eventual thing, because I am committed to getting my son out of the house before focusing on a committed relationship.

I think it is my contentment that has allowed me to look forward. I think my contentment is largely the result of freedom from all the stress of the five or so years leading up to my divorce. And perhaps that's a big difference: you were content with the life you had and didn't know there was a problem in your marriage until you were faced with its end.

So Sage, here's the 2x4 question:

Do you really see things as they are in your life? Perhaps because you think you missed some sign of your ex-husband's discontent, you aren't willing to accept all the good things in your life at face value any longer.

Chris.

Chris...interesting question. I was thinking today about all of the wonderful things in my life...yes, I see them, but they don't seem to make it better...I don't honestly know what is missing. Something is missing. I have always been a contented person...this discontent is so new to me and so strange to even figure out. I know I "thought" I was happy in my marriage..it worked for me and not for him, that's it in a nutshell.
BUT, because it worked for me I was "content"??? I don't know. What do you mean by not taking things at "face value"???? You mean "count my blessings?" If I am unable to do that then I am pretty pathetic, am I not? I certainly don't have any stress that is upsetting...again. only the "missing" piece....I am 58....ready to put the hassles of life behind me. I want to grow old and enjoy the things that are coming for me...
BUT, again, something is missing...don't know what it is. I guess my X could identify with your contentment...he was the one who was so stressed out and needed a change...he is the one who got out and experiences no stress. That's fine for him....but what about those of us who are left here still spinning? I am spinning. I am in a vortex. Some days are fine, some are not. I look forward to the future and wish it would come...how ironic is that? The present is the future.....I can't stand my present....I want my future...surely I won't feel like this a year from now...I pray that I won't. Maybe I need a whack. It's not him I want. I want my contentment. I want to be content....not unappreciative of the things I am so lucky to have nad that I worked hard to attain...great children...worked hard as a mother to allow them to be who they needed to be....good at my job...I worked hard to get there....have a wonderful social network....have been a good friend to all my friends...not many friends...just enough.
I will figure this out and when I do I am definately going to write a book about it...dont' knowwhat hte title will be....
It's not that I want to go back, physically, to that p[oint in my life. Emotionally/psychologically I want to....the feeling of something....maybe not needing anyone...maybe that is it. I don't buy the adage...about never having loved and lost, etc. I don't know. It's 1am and I am up unable to sleep...I am just garbbling on...I will quit...maybe you can make some sense out of this...I certainly can't. I don't think that I expect too much either...I don't think wanting and pining for contentment is expecting too much...I just havae to figure out how to get it for myself...ME...I want it from ME....whack me if you have to.

The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You don't blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the President. You realize that you control your own destiny.


~ Albert Ellis ~

""""The bears up here are hungry this year since the berry crop wasn't that great. I have ran into several, but luckily was inside a vehicle at the time.""""

Let me get this straight. You've been running over bears with vehicles just because they are hungry because of a poor berry crop? Is this bear conservation because of a food shortage? Do you get paid for running over bears?

Kid,

People rarely ever see a bear in or around that park. However, directly across the river in Wisconsin my friend lives on 26 acres, and she had a big ole black one eating out of her kitchen window bird feeder. Imagine sitting down for morning coffee and making close eye contact with that. She said it was pretty cool though.

Actually bears never crossed my mind on that hike. At all.

Thanks for the reminder, Kid.

So Sage...

How do YOU find contentment? What does it even mean to you? The absence of a vague feeling of discomfort, maybe?

Where contentment comes from for me:

1. I accept my life as it is, all the good and all the bad.

2. I accept that I am where I am as the result of my own choices.

3. I know I can change my choices any time I want.

4. I work hard doing honest work every day, and I earn a paycheck that covers my cost of living (and then some).

5. I get up every morning with a positive attitude and try to keep it all day. Most days I succeed.

6. I have wonderful friends who listen to me and guide me when I need it, and for whom I do the same.

Chris.

I just wanted to share something that has hit me recently.....

For a few weeks I have been re-examining my life and my priorities. There were days before where I would wake up and not want to get out of bed or go to work. Now I know why, fatigue is a symptom of the MS. So is depression.

I look back a few years and think about all the time I spent pouting and sad that I had lost the love of my life, when in fact the best part of my life was slipping by. I was healthy then and oblivious to how short a life can really be. Sure I feel fine now, but that veiled threat will always be there now.

The MS was a huge wakeup call for me. It made me realize that the time I spent pining over something that I can't have and isn't good for me in the first place, gives me less time to celebrate the things I do have. To treasure my current state of health, my family (especially my dad), to treasure my friends, to treasure my job, the fact I have a roof over my head and can afford to get adequate medical treatment so I don't end up in a wheel chair a few years down the road.

Every morning that I wake up and get out of bed means more to me now. I actually really pay attention to my body when I wake up. Sure there are some days that I feel depressed, down or just plain sore........but that is all relative to me now. If I wake up Tuesday tired I go to bed earlier Tues night. I have learned to get more in tune with my body.

We all take certain things forgranted. Being able to walk, being able to see, to hear, to play, to work, being able to buy groceries.......so many things. Then I started thinking of those such as my good friend Cory who is the reflection of positive. Outwardly he appears to be the biggest role model I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. But I wonder if sometimes that is just because he wakes up in the morning and choses to be that way. Then there is Jbean, who is always supportive even though she struggles immensely these days herself with her health and MS.

In comparison to some of these major issues my life is pretty good. Sure I have some down days but I am trying to make a consistent choice each morning to accept that things aren't perfect and to live based on the things that are. Healthwise I feel pretty good.....or maybe that is just the power of positive thinking.

I don't know how long this will continue, but it is where I am at right now. I hope I am not rambling.....

Kid said, "Then I started thinking of those such as my good friend Cory who is the reflection of positive. Outwardly he appears to be the biggest role model I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. But I wonder if sometimes that is just because he wakes up in the morning and choses to be that way."


Nah, I'm really a manic depressive who just happens to be a good actor....

Seriously, I'll share my secret. I've posted it before, so it's not REALLY a secret...

Every morning, I go through a mental checklist. It goes like this:

1. I wake up... Check
2. I take a deep breath... Check
3. I feel for a pulse... Check
4. I open my eyes to find I have another day with at least SOME sight left... Check

That's 4 miracles in under 30 seconds. How can I have a bad day after that?

Priorities, babeeee.... Learn 'em, live 'em, love 'em.

Cory

www.blind-justice-self-defense.com

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

Yep they are a changing.............them priorities.

Some great insights....Kid...I wasn't aware of your diagnosis of MS...when did that happen? The choice part...I am not sure I agree with that. I can't seem to separate the "choice" part from paying attention to the "what comes into my thinking" part..I am trying to work on that.
Contentment....it's a "feeling" that I experience when what??? I don't even know. It is ENERGY for me that is gone...I don't even know the concept to put on it to describe it. Something that Redwood said....we have to assume responsibility for US....we can't blame others...I am not one to "blame" others...I just want to know what it is about ME that continues to struggle. Maybe at some unconscious level I do blame...but I don't think so. I have found a great book that I am reading now, the author is James Hollis....talks about second adulthood...(anyone know the book?) I think my former H actually went through/still going through some type of crisis...his crisis I think has put me in a state of crisis. It makes sense to me. I have to find out how I am, of course...such a "trite" statement. BUT, find out who I am after not being able to be who I was....that's why I want to return to the ME that was so energetic, motivated, etc. when in college...before discovering love, romance, marriage etc.
I experience very little excitement in my life right now....of course, I don't have anythying to worry about either...other than the normal, children, finances, etc. Things that we all worry about..but, the energy is gone. I don't know what contentment is...it is a "feeling" that I experience when....I can't answer the question.
If I could find the power to "choose" contentment (whatever that is) I would obviously do it...I am not a masacist...I don't want to be "dulled" out...I just am.
Maybe it is going to take longer....maybe not enough time.
There is a part of me that was...the history of my life, my marriage, my emotional state....it was good....there is something that I have to find...in light of all that has been good for me....maybe that's the metaphor of the two rivers for me.....taking what was me and "fitting" into what I need now....incorporating the old with the different/new....
Hmmmmm
I am more determined to get there than I ever have been. I think I am slowly coming around to accept that I am in charge of my life..I already knew that...but that I have to think about what I need and want. I just don't know what that is yet. I am hoping for an epiphany (sp)......

Sage,

Something caught my eye in your posting: contentment is a feeling.

I am not so sure contentment is a feeling as much as it is a state - a state of being content - not a feeling of being content.... I know semantics feelings ebb and flow, a state is more "permanent"...

You give me the impression of being 'lost', without a rudder, without an anchor. It would be fine if it were under your control ie. you decided to be free floating however I hear you say you got there not by choice. However you do have an anchor, or several little ones - your carreer, your accomplishments, your children, your family. And even if your marriage became a story with an unfortunate ending you are still the captain of your ship... Go and explore, take risks, when your feet hit the floor in the morning be thankful you have a new day in front of you, a brand new day which is your own to be what YOU choose it to be: good, bad, indiferrent.

Be content with the state of being ! Try to be more congruent beween your two faces: the one you present to the world and the one you live with, your inner self. Let your inner self peek around the corner and see the sun...

And as you walk you make your path Kat

Contentment may just be feeling comfortable in your own skin, living your own life.

Content people, in my experience, are not people who think life just happens to them or that things will change on their own. Exhibits "A" and "B": Cory and Kat. Kid seems to be there, too.

Content people seem to have a light in their eyes that's very evident. They are interested in lots of things. They ask lots of questions, they have interesting insights. They are always interesting to talk to, even when disagreeing. (When I met Cory and Kat, we just talked for hours about tons of different things.)

Look, it took me FOREVER to make some of the (necessary) changes in my life. But the more I change things, the more I realize I'm perfectly capable of dealing with change...voluntary or otherwise.

It definitely starts with attitude.

Chris.

"I think my former H actually went through/still going through some type of crisis...his crisis I think has put me in a state of crisis."

Something I noticed in your post is that you are still justifying to yourself why your H did what he did. Whether or not he is in crisis (which I believe is BS btw) he is with her and doesn't want a relationship with you.

As many have said.......if he truly loved you he would move heaven and earth to be with you. As difficult as this may be to accept, he is with her now and likely it is her he says "I love you" to each night.

As long as you allow yourself to justify why he has done what he did, you give yourself hope that he will one day open his eyes and realize he loves you and come running home. I wouldn't place bets on that Sage.......

I fully agree that we chose our destination and our own happiness. Happiness isn't something that somebody else gives us, it is something we find within ourselves.


Edited to add: I found about the MS around late August. I posted about it, but you must have missed it.

I'm with Kid, by the way: as long as you describe your divorce in terms of something that was done to you, it's "blaming" and it means to me that you haven't accepted it. You may be stuck in the "denial" stage of grief..."how could this happen to me?"

Well, it did. While there is one negative (you are not with the person you expected to grow older with), there are many more positives:

you are financially secure
you have a career you chose and still like (maybe/maybe not?)
your sons love and respect you
you don't have to worry about a drug-addict/drunk in your life

Okay, Sage...you're like everyone else here: you didn't have a choice when your spouse chose to have an affair. You're like some people here: you didn't have a choice when your cheatin' spouse didn't want to fix your marriage. But all that's long past; in life there are no "do-overs".

So what do you want NOW? With what attitude will you approach it?

Chris.

For some reason, reading this thread caused me to think of this quote....

"If you cannot change the way you look at things, then the things you look at will never change".


And the best comment (in my mind) about control? "It is only when we realize we have no control that we are able to gain some measure of it in our lives"
- Miyamoto Musashi

Google Musashi sometime... A VERY interesting man. His story gives new meaning to the term "Thinking Outside The Box"..

Cory

www.blind-justice-self-defense.com

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

I know....I know....all of what each of you say is true. My goal....I can't wait to be able to read your words and not have my stomach "flinch"....I know that I am not at the acceptance stage....I am diligently working in that direction. For me, I think the acceptance will come when I can experience that "state" of contentment...you're right kid...it's a "state"...I like that.

I don't resent being at this place in my life...I have lost a great deal, emotionally and physically. I am looking forward to becoming the person I need to become, in light of this experience. I guess I felt safe and secure in that marriage. I still feel safe and secure...but something is still missing....the part that is missing? ME...maybe this is an identity crisis. I don't know if I would have experienced it or not, had the marriage not come down. This divorce has forced me to reexamine who I am..DUH...nothing significant there....I am slowly peeling away the layers to get to the core....my soul, if you will. Right now it's damaged...it's fragile....again, I have not been in that position before...I don't have a frame of reference for this....I know that I will evolve into a stronger, more grounded person with a passion and direction...for now, I am having a hard time capturing that.
I understand the concept of change and what that involves...."if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten".....well, I am doing things differently....but there has not been much movement. Maybe the learning curve for me is steeper than for others...I don't know.

I am "plugging" along....sometimes with my tail between my legs...I don't think I am "waiting" for something to happen....I know that I am in charge of my life and that I have to do that for myself. Maybe I am too impatient. I want to get through this "shit" and move on....and I have moved on...baby steps...again, maybe I am waiting for an "epiphany" some birght light to show me the way...I don't know how it will happen for me.

Again, I look forward to the day that it will happen...meanwhile, I am plugging along...looking at myself....thinking....entertaining all of the things all of you say...putting it out there and massaging it. I'm still in the dark about it....it will come.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond to me. This continues to be a huge part of my own movement forward..

This image opens up a flood of things for me, as do many of your responses. Could it be where one river becomes two?

They flow together, as do our lives when we take a spouse. All the hope, the excitement, the thrill of being together and looking to the future.

Infidelity brings other thoughts.

The thought that the promise to each other made before God, family and friends is now shattered. That the obligation to "have and to hold...and til death do us part..." no longer feels that way.

The choices widen. If we stay together, it is by choice, and no longer by obligation. The confluence in many ways expands.

Am I more happy now than before D-day? Absolutely.

The future is much murkier (like the bottom of the river), but my destiny feels more my own. My vistas have expanded. I am more free to ask and receive what I want, both from my partner and myself.

The pain has cut an eddy into this waterway, but opened up more flow.

Where this river flows to, I cannot say. Neither could I before D-day, but the promise seems greater now.

Wolf-thank you for sharing your picture. Kid, Chris, Monica, Sage, Kat, as always, your thoughts are a renewable resource that breeds energy into my daily mix.

Be well, all

Jay