Okay, I need you all to tell me if you would be concerned at all in my case.  Of course it involves the ex.

He has a history of porn/sex addiction and intimacy issues.  He is currently preparing to go to trial concerning his being accused of going into the women's restroom (multiple times, apparently) at his place of employment.   Well, actually, he is accused of doing this in the same building where he works -- on a different floor than his company's.

Now... my daughter is 7.  She has never wanted to spend time alone with her father -- if she had the opportunity, she'd always ask if her older brother was coming along too.  If he wasn't able to go, she didn't want to go either.    Recently she's been saying that she doesn't want to sleep over at her father's place, even with her brother there.  I ask her why, and she says that she just "doesn't want to"  or that she misses me.  She doesn't get hysterical or anything like that, she just firmly says that she doesn't want to stay the night.    I have told her in the past that she can tell me anything, and that she should especially tell me if someone wants her to keep a secret -- unless it's about  a birthday or Christmas present.

I had requested over a year ago that the ex provide separate sleeping arrangements each for himself, our son, and our daughter.  Our children had been sleeping in the same bed together when they visited before that time, which is fine when they are little, but they are growing up now.  So the ex got a blow-up bed.   But I've heard it mentioned in passing that the ex has, at least on occasion, recently slept in the same bed with our daughter.

Now to try to provide some balance, my daughter often sleeps in my big queen bed with me, because her room is too cold (it's the coldest in the house) -- and space heaters make me a bit nervous.   But even so....

Am I making too much of this?????     If I even should, how would I approach any concerns I have regarding the safety of our daughter?  The ex is already a bit peeved that I don't believe he is innocent regarding the charge brought up against him.  In this matter I told him "I don't know what to believe."

Maybe I'm connecting things that don't need to be connected.  Maybe he is innocent.  What would you think?

Jean

 

Ask her the hard questions. Make sure she knows she is safe. Let her know that any threats made to keep her quiet won't happen. My oldest daughter was molested by a cousin, that her mother knew was a molester. The only thing I asked for in the D, was her to keep my daughter away from him and she didn't. Lousy lawyer is the only reason I couldn't get custody after that.

But I also have found my oldest daughter prefers living with her mom, over me, because she doesn't challenger her. My oldest daughter is a C average student and a couch potato. The younger kids live with me and each excels in academics and athletics. So there can be more than one reason they don't want to go to one house over the other. Rules, ease of lifestyle, friends, etc..

But you better check your hunches, I did and got a protection order and counseling for her. And his ass locked up and counseling.

Jean, I don't know all the ins and outs on this stuff, nor do I know anyone personally who has dealt with it, so take the following with that in mind...

My opinion? You ALWAYS err on the side of keeping the child safe, period. Better to keep her home and be wrong about your hunch than to let her go there and find out you were right.

Cory

www.blind-justice-self-defense.com

The Three Rules of Happiness: Friends, Freedom and an Analyzed Life - Epicurus

Jean,

I'd find out.

There are ways. Sometimes a professional might be the best route. It's all too common.

You suspect there is more to your daughter's hesitation to spend time with your ex. I think you should trust your instincts. It may or may not be abuse but it's likely something is happening she needs help with.

I found this list of there are organizations devoted to keeping kids safe at the APA. http://www.apa.org/releases/sexabuse/help.html. Perhaps they can give suggestions to help you determine what is going on and what steps to take next.

You're a good mom and I know you will figure it out.

Rosie

Please, please, please listen to what your daughter is telling you.  Check it out.  I was about 5 when my father started to sexually abuse me.  My mom had no clue!  I told no one. About 20 years later I found out he had been abusing my older sister as well.  And my dad also had a closet full of porno books. I know you do not want to think the worst of your H or accuse him of anything unfounded.  That is why you need to check it out first.  But there must be a reason why your daughter does not want to stay over night and at 7 she may not have the words to even explain it if something is going on. Just do not jump to any conclusions but I do strongly urge you to check it out.  And in the meantime, do not leave her alone with him....as it is better to be safe than sorry until you are certain everything is OK.

Take Care...Carol~

 

Jean, I don't think it's a good idea for kids to sleep with either parent unless there's something very frightening (thunderstorm, tornado warning, etc.).

That said, I understand your concern. But I agree with Kat that a "neutral" counselor should try to get the answers, though. You've strongly implied in the past (if not outright declared) that you'd rather not "force" your kids to go see their dad, and if they pick up on your ambivalence they may be inclined to play it back to you to please you. A third party would not have that issue.

I don't know if I wrote about it here, but when I did jury duty in January it was a case of a father repeatedly molesting his (at the time) 12-year-old daughter during visitation...WHICH HE HAD ADMITTED IN A VIDEOTAPED CONFESSION...and the creep still demanded a jury trial. I was the jury foreman, and nothing pleased me more than to tell the judge we'd reached a verdict (guilty on four counts of child molesting) and later to urge the judge to put the creep away for as long as he could since he put us all through that charade.

Chris.

I haven't responded until now because I can't sit for more than a minute -- because of the sciatica pain.  (I'm kneeling again at the PC!)

Firstly, I agree with the "family bed" concept when the children are young, and, of course, only if the kids (i.e, toddlers....) want to pile in.  Add this viewpoint to that the fact that my daughter has been a very "high need" child and did not sleep through the night consistently until she was about 4-1/2 (this isn't because of where she was sleeping -- she was in my bed -- it was a neurological/development issue), the fact that I have fibro and I need good sleep or I can get near paralyzed with pain and the fact that her room is very cold in the winter ....  my daughter still sleeps in my bed a lot of the times.  This is our favorite place to read books and my daughter loves my reading to her at night.  My son sometimes joins us at the foot of the bed sometimes and we'll read history, or something else of interest to him, and then he goes to his own (warm) room, and maybe read some more.  So this is the setup at our house.  

My daughter is okay with going to sleep over her friends' houses, and has on some occasions with no problems -- so she doesn't need me there to fall asleep or anything like that.

So these are the various reasons she sleeps in my bed.   However, we are of the same gender, and I haven't had destructive sexual issues like the ex has.

One thing I am concerned about and don't want to do is put ideas in her head -- hence why I haven't asked her any very specific or graphic questions.  I do know that the ex ignores her while he plays PC games with our son, and this makes her sad.   Maybe her not wanting to stay overnight is just that she just doesn't have a "connection" with her father like her brother has. 

I have asked her questions such as "does your dad tickle or tease you too much?" and "Does he do anything else that makes you feel uncomfortable?"  "When he comes to sleep in your bed, what does he do?"  I wait... and then I tried to make the conversation a bit lighter by then saying "Does he snore... Does he drool on his pillow?"     All her answers were okay..... all she really said was that he sleeps for a while "...and then he goes back out to play more games on the computer."

Chris, the reason why I haven't forced her go with her father without her brother there is because I'd rather err on the side of safety (as Cory said).   The weekend visitation started when she was only 1-1/2 years old.  It has been particularly important to me to honor my daughter's wishes while she's young because, if something unsavory were happening to her there, she most likely would not have the ability to tell me.

But in fact both my son and my daugther are with him again this weekend.  And she did ask if I would come pick her up before bedtime. 
"Why?" 
"I miss you."
"And I miss you too."
"Well then... how 'bout if I stay the first night and then you come and get me the second night."
I told her "we'll see...." and I promised to call her to see how she was.

It is possible that I am making connections that aren't really there.  But at this point, with the info written here, should I do anything else?  Should I still have her talk with a counselor?

Jean

My son right now is at a birthday party next door.  While he was to be at the birthday party, my daughter was to go clothes shopping with her father. 

Well, before my son went to the party, he, my daughter and their father came to over to my house for wrapping paper.  At this point my daughter pulled me into the kitchen and said she didn't want to go with her dad without her brother (even for shopping, and this girl loves to shop).  So the ex left, more angry than concerned, it seems.  He called me about 10 minutes later, asking what the problem was.  I said I didn't know, that I was on the floor talking with her now.    All I could get out of her was that her dad makes her "nervous" -- but that she feels okay with her brother around.

Jean

That is scary. Perhaps you need to find a counsellor for your daughter ASAP. Let the counsellor make a decision as to what she thinks is happening.

Children generally don't get "nervous" around their parents, do they?

I always like to presume innocence until proven guilty, but I have to agree that "if" there is something going on, you need to find out sooner than later. My mind started to change a bit on your ex when you told us he was going to court for alledgedly entering the woman's washroom at work. I wonder if that alone is enough to request that visitation be surpervised until the matter is resolved.

I hope for your daughter's sake there is nothing happening!

I'm sorry Jean. This is a horrible place you find yourself.

Kid



p.s. this might be a little personal - but do you ever notice any marks, red spots, infections etc in your daughter's genital area? (how old is she btw?) Does she change in front of you or like to be in private.......anything that may give you a clue that you need to pursue this further and faster???

I am sure you watch closely since I know you have been worried for a bit now.

I wonder though - instead of asking her, perhaps you could find some way to casually question her brother without making suspicious about why.

Jean,

There's a difference between piling on the bed to read or talk, and actually going to bed and sleeping together. Some child development writers suggest that it's necessary for children to sleep alone to (among other things) develop healthy boundaries and separate identities and to lessen separation anxiety.

What you are experiencing could be the latter of those. Or it could be something more.

A counselor can help you sort it out.

Chris.

hi jean, i work in this area and in reading what your daughter is saying i would be concerned. i dont want to frighten you by implying that she is being sexually abused as she may not be, BUT something is making her 'nervous' about being on her own with her father, which even if it isnt a sexual issue, is sufficient to talk with her more about what is happening over there.

however, kids often will not disclose directly, because they dont want to feel responsible for getting someone in trouble, especially someone they are related to and even love. often kids will say "i like everything else about that person, but not that stuff", so they find it hard to distinguish the good and the bad stuff, because there will be good stuff. they also may hope that whatever is happening will just stop or that they may eventually be able to stop it without getting other people involved etc.

because kids often wont disclose hurtful things directly, it is sometimes helpful to go around the issue a different way. for example, the issue about secrets, i tend to talk to kids about there being NO secrets, but there are private things. this enables you to talk about privacy, starting off with simple things like, as ones gets older being able to shower/bath on their own, being able to sleep on their own. privacy discussions can then lead into discussions about protecting oneself, from bullying through to sexual abuse. eg how does one protect themselves from a bully stealing their sandwiches at school, what action can she take to protect herself to stop bad things happening for her.

there are lots of protective behaviour sites on the net. you can also use these as a big person, lead by example eg talk about protecting yourself at the shops from car jackers or keeping your purse safe. not like a lecture and not in a way that freaks the kids out and makes them think the world is an unsafe place, but in a way that makes them see that one can protect themlselves.

does your daughter know about the impending court case?, has she seen any of his porn stuff, eg what does dad do on the computer, did you watch videos at dad's. you might even suggest you didnt like his movies, you had different taste, eg you hate westerns or whatever haha. these are ideas to keep communication open with your daughter.

i am not sure how old your son is, but maybe he might give some ideas about what is happening at dad's place. maybe ask him about what happens there, what things do him and his sister do TOGETHER with dad, or do they do things separately, does dad tend to favour or isolate his sister, eg son you can go out and ride the bike for a while but your sister is too young to be outside, she can stay in here to do colouring or have her bath etc.

as i said jean, i dont want to frighten you, or make you think the worse, but whatever is happening you daughter is not comfortable or happy about it, so it is worth pursuing. it might that he gave her a heavy smack for breaking something some visits ago and since then he has said things like "you always break stuff", or "i will smack you" etc, that is frightening her, nothing about sexual things at all.

i hope my thoughts help and if you want to discuss further you can email me at kathyw@arach.net.au

regards
kath

Thanks, Kath.  I may email you at some point.  It may not be sexual at all.  But just the thought that it might scares me.

"There's a difference between piling on the bed to read or talk, and actually going to bed and sleeping together."  Not really, Chris....one minute you're awake and talking about your day, or reading something good.... the next minute you're snoring..... I don't much difference at all.     Afterall, a good part, if not most, of the world's families routinely co-sleep at some point in their children's development.  Some child development writers say that co-sleeping encourages confidence, better sleep patterns, and lessens separation anxiety, among other things..... But hey... as we all know, we can agree to disagree.  I'm a "attachment parenting" proponent.

My daughter has had sleep issues in the past, but she's never had any separation anxiety issues per se -- she's always been fine with babysitters, in preschool  and later school classes, swim classes, horse camp, art classes, et cetera.  She's actually a little social butterfly.   That's  why this issue with her father is so puzzling. 

<<i tend to talk to kids about there being NO secrets, but there are private things. this enables you to talk about privacy, starting off with simple things like, as ones gets older being able to shower/bath on their own, being able to sleep on their own. privacy discussions can then lead into discussions about protecting oneself, from bullying through to sexual abuse.>>   I have had these talks with both of my children, but maybe I need to have more.

I'll be looking into getting counseling from any reputable place that has sliding scale fees.

Jean

P.S.  Kid, I haven't noticed anything that you mentioned above.  My daughter is 7 and my son will be 11 in a couple weeks.  She changes in front of me just fine.

hi jean

i was just wondering how things are going for you and your daughter.

take care
kath

Thanks for thinking of me.  I've been in pretty bad continuous sciatica pain for the past month or so -- and before that, intermittently since August -- and so I haven't been able to do much at all.  My brother didn't realize how much pain I was in (we had some miscommunication and I've had a tendency not to want to bother him, since he treats me for free), but now I'll be going to his clinic 2-3 times a week for treatment.  I also went back to urgent care last night and finally got some more powerful anti-inflammatory scrips and another one for pain.  I've missed out on a lot of work, and I"m only there part-time, so.... I'm concerned for my job.  I hope they will hold it for me.

So because of all this haven't been able to pursue the counseling stuff just yet, but I hope to soon.   I gotta kneel at the PC to type this, and that can be a pain, so I don't type much lately.  If you have any further suggestions for this situation tho, Kath, please feel free to email me.

Hope you are well.

Jean

hi mate, i am sorry to hear that you are in so much pain, it can be very debilitating, i dont know how you keep going the way you do.

re your brother, hey mate, he is your brother, he should want to be doing this for you and i am sure he is (what treatment is he doing for you?)

i have no suggestions about pain stuff, i just know that having endometriosis that i get caught in this cycle of painkillers to take the endo pain away and then end up with pain reactions to the painkillers, especially codeine, which can be a nightmare. and endo pain is probably nowhere near what you are feeling.

can they do anything else fo you hon? my mum had sciatic pain and watching her at times i know how terrible it can be.

take you time with the counselling, you need to try and get physically better, maybe put some interim strategies in place for your daughter if she doesnt want to see her dad, you might even say you need her to stay with you because of your physical stuff, to help you in the house, that you cant be left on your own etc.

take care mate
kath

"i dont know how you keep going the way you do."   Well....it has been pretty awful at times, but the one thing that motivates me is that, if anything should happen to me, the ex would get custody.  It is my prayer that that never happen.

My brother is a chiropractor, and a very good one at that.  People often drive for hours or sometimes fly in to see him.  Anyways, he didn't realize I was in so much pain because I didn't want to bother him... even tho he's busy, this poor communication on my part frustrated him.  ... I just thank God for him that he can help me.

It actually took a load off my mind when it was he who said "don't go into work for the rest of this week," -- it's not just me and my subjective pain anymore, but doctor's orders.  So I've started taking naprosyn (sp?) and taking good rests and I've found that I hardly need the percocet now.  (Hurray!)

The ex's trial date is set for Dec. 19th.  Wow...right before Christmas.  I'm tempted to go, although I work that day and would have to take off -- and with taking off because of the sciatica I'm not really in any position to ask for any more time off.

But didn't someone say here that I could get a transcript or some such thing of the court proceedings?

Jean