Those are some damn scary statistics. The fact that 1 in 3 take off their wedding rings when going out without their wives......ummm if you are doing that aren't you asking for trouble!!
The number marriage that survive and seem empty after......that is very scary indeed!
Makes me realize that being alone is not all bad and certainly better statistically
The scariest stat is the 78% forever unhappy or empty. If you ever wondered if you "settled", I guess that settles that discussion, doesn't it?
Simply, infidelity is the most destructive thing that can happen at the hands of a loved one. Mourning a death is far easier. It should be a deal breaker for every single one of us. Let them all go to each other. Let the rest of us live a life of substance. Maybe then people wouldn't be so flip about it, you know; "I didn't think you'd find out" Like that somehow addresses the want, the acceptance, the desire, the ignorance, the lack of commitment. Then you get "I promise, it will never happen again AND I wish I could go back in time and make the right choice" As if that makes any difference either.
Then you read stuff like "I'm an SAB" or I own my Sh** BUT... I'm at a loss why few WS know the WHY part. You get gas cuz your car needs it. You eat cuz you need it. You call customers or do your work cuz you need to and you sleep every night and wake up cuz you need to but when it comes to this one simple answer it is a F***ing impossible question. The reality is that they don't want to tell you that they wanted to F**k this other person. In fact they wanted to F**k this other person more than you. In spite of your vows, your trust, you commitment "Get over it, would you? Come on it's in the past now" BUT, "please stay with me" What a reward for us dreary downtrodden folks that we cannot muster the self esteem to move on to someone else that just might respect us enough to be true - it's an unbelievably pathetic notion, right?
In many ways it makes one think the best course of action is to start running and never, ever look back. Too bad kids are often the most undeserving casualty.
The truth is that this is such a common behavior that the only way to protect yourself is to never allow yourself to become involved to the point of attachment.
Such a dismal commentary on a society without conscience or character. Always an issue of immediate gratification. The most hurtful is the actual need for such affirmation. So incredibly shallow, so incredibly selfish, so incredibly small, so incredibly, um, - nothing!
It take a person made of absolutely nothing to commit the crime of infidel!
You have a pretty good point. No matter how much I still love my wife, if it were not for our son, I wouldn't have even tried to reconcile. It took an enormous show of faith from Cyn, that I will not say here, for me to believe she truly still wants US.
BS
This message has been edited by firemandown on Dec 31, 2006 1:56 AM This message has been edited by firemandown on Dec 31, 2006 1:55 AM
I wonder what the statistics would be if you add in disability or illness in the factor and one would go outside the marriage because the ill spoused cannot be intimate due to illness or disability?
It is shocking how many well spouses go outside the marriage to "get their satisfaction" yet still stay in the marriage"
IIC, please refrain from making generalized comments like the following:
"It take a person made of absolutely nothing to commit the crime of infidel"
I personally was quite a offended when I read this, as my W happens to be made of a LOT more than nothing. She's a beautiful, smart, wonderful and complicated woman who happened to make a severe mistake in our relationship. Those who post here who have met her will tell you the same. She worked her a$$ off to heal herself and our marriage after her affair, and over 8 years later, we're in a better marriage because of the dedication and commitment we made to healing.
If you want to make comments about your spouse, go right ahead, but leave my W and other spouses out of the conversation.
Generalizations like the one above, the famous, "all men are cheaters", "if they cheated once they'll do it again, etc., are all bullshit, and they cause MUCH more harm than good.
Cory, I don't know this person, but maybe he is newly betrayed. Right after D-Day did you not have those types of thoughts as to what your WS was? I know I can't print here what I thought of my W. My opinion has changed a lot since then, but sometimes I still feel that way, just not as much and not nearly as often.
My reference is regarding the time frame in which these indiscretions take place. And, yes I am making a generalization because if their character didn't "disappear" neither you, nor I, would be visiting this site. I think this statement can appropriately apply to every single person that has an affair or is willing to betray someone they've committed themselves to.
My W has worked her ass off as well, but, the stats are still the facts. I didn't generalize about them and they tell the true story. Interpret them as you wish but when nearly 80% of betrayed spouses state they're either unhappy or feel empty you realize the life long impact of betrayal and the bottom line character flaw the betrayed feel they are left to live with.
I am sorry if my statements offend you.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 10:53 AM
"The truth is that this is such a common behavior that the only way to protect yourself is to never allow yourself to become involved to the point of attachment."
I divorced my husband because he was not remorseful and would not work on the marriage and wanted it all to just go away. He didn't think I would find out and justified in his mind why that made it okay to do, it would never hurt me right?
IfICould if I may......you sound extremely bitter and resentful of your wife even though you are still together. You suggest that if you had more self esteem you wouldn't be together now (or is it because of children). Regardless of whether you chose to stay or go you need to heal YOU, and I highly recommend counselling if you are not in it already. It helped change my bitter view into something better that I could live with so that I wasn't spewing venom daily on the opposite sex!
The above quote.....if you never truly experience the high of love and committment what kind of life is that? Do you really think being alone would be better?
It was YOUR spouse that betrayed you, not the whole population. Not everybody is perfect, that is just a fact of life. We all make mistakes, some are bigger and more painful than others, but once again nobody (including you) is perfect.
Does your wife really know how you feel about her??
I truly hope you find some peace and contentment in your life and learn to be better rather than bitter......I can't tell from your post when dday was, sometimes it just takes alot of time.
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Dec 31, 2006 11:22 AM
I think the stats bear out what I am about to say;
There are many (maybe most?) that, regardless of the actions of their WS after their transgression, remain in love but their bitterness never completely subsides.
I am no different than the majority of the respondence. I love my W dearly she is my one and only but, had it to do over again, I would never subject myself to such degradation and such resentment. I often feel quite badly for what I feel deep within me. She does not know, nor will she ever know. I don't want her to feel badly or to define herself by one bad choice in her life. She is a beautiful person but the price to be paid to have that comes at such a huge personal cost that I think it not worthwhile for anyone. I think there are those that put less value in character or moral turptitude and those are the ones that have less difficultly resolving their resentments.
That said, there are those that expect that their allegences be spent with one of similar moral makeup. This is not a fault! It remains an obvious personal standard and expectation for the many (78%) that do effort to reconcile. As a result, no amount of counseling can overcome one's core belief system. Not recognizing this is, in the beginning, a failure for those, like myself, who do their best to reduce it's value to our lives. You believe you can change and learn to accept that which you would never do to another. At the same time it is exactly that core value which you would never violate yourself. This creates the basic conundrum and it perpetuates the dicotomy that all BS's must fight for their remaining days with their WS. How do you accept that from another which you would not accept from yourself? Let's see maybe you're better? more gracious? more forgiving? more like Jesus? or are you just a fool that has rewarded unacceptable personal devaluation?
What have you really done? Have you set the stage for acceptable future behavior? If that's possible then how can you ever trust unconditionally? If you've compromized everything you believe then what have you really gained? What are you really worth? How fulfilled can you be? How enriched can your life be with someone who IS this kind of person?
The point I'm getting at is that I surely have no answers but I can surely understand the statistics. They really do tell the tale. For the BS it is a life long purgatory hidden behind supposed graciousness. Is it worth it? Go 20 years and tell me, was it worth it? How do you feel about yourself now? Decades of fear, decades of survival, decades of lies, decades of deceit and then, what have you missed? What have you missed out of? What could you have had?
These are not the words from someone suffering from the early sting of infidelity
Hang in there, it's the right thing to do! You should be proud, you are righteous, virtuous, right? Somehow there is little solace in any of that.
<<<Of those couples who remain married despite an affair, what percentage later describe the marriage as unhappy or empty?
▪ 78%>>>
I think this stat is somewhat misleading because it doesn't state what "later" is. If its only been 1 or 2 yrs then as we know that's a common feeling. Most experts state it takes a minimum of 2 yrs to begin to heal.
However if its be been 10 yrs and someone still feels this way then I would question (1) why stay in a marriage that long being unhappy (2) what was the state of the marriage before the A (3) how much work was done to improve the relationship and (4) how much of your self worth is wrapped up in someone else to the point you won't do anything to improve your own life?
One of my favorite quotes goes something like this: "never make someone else a priority in your life who only sees you as an option". That can be said about a lot of things...there are options.
Personally it doesn't sound like a marriage to me if 10 yrs later you are miserable. Just 2 people maybe through fear, the kids, or whatever who don't wanna get divorced. There is a difference in my book.
If its only been 1 or 2 yrs...that's not "later". That's the beginning.
<<That said, there are those that expect that their allegences be spent with one of similar moral makeup. This is not a fault! It remains an obvious personal standard and expectation for the many (78%) that do effort to reconcile. As a result, no amount of counseling can overcome one's core belief system. Not recognizing this is, in the beginning, a failure for those, like myself, who do their best to reduce it's value to our lives. You believe you can change and learn to accept that which you would never do to another. At the same time it is exactly that core value which you would never violate yourself.>>
I have tossed this around in my head for months. In fact, our MC had made it quite clear to me that my H's infidelity might not be something that I will be able to negotiate and re-build our marriage from. Although I do believe that WS's are capable of making some big changes in their lives in order to become better people/spouses...I think that some situations call for the BS to compromise an awful lot for their marriages to survive. I am capable of compromise....however I do feel that I would have to compromise an awful lot of myself in order for my marriage to 'survive'. I struggle with this. Alot. I do not feel 'safe' enough to make myself vulnerable with my H...and then to compromise my core belief system on top of that? Where am I in all of this? Do I lower my standards and redefine what love and committment mean to me...simply to accomodate my WS and keep my marriage from ending? That scares me.
My WH has done all of the 'right' things in the aftermath of infidelity. Now our issues are not 'affair-related.' The affair just brought these character traits/flaws (however you want to look at them) to light. I don't expect him to become a different person...but I would like to see him learn new ways to cope with life. Perhaps become less passive-aggressive. Gain more confidence in himself. He doesn't seem willing/capable of doing this. We've had a couple of situations happen recently where I was in tears asking him why he has chosen to forget all of the things we talked about in MC and deal with things the same way he always had. Typically he doesn't get the results he wants....so I'm not sure why he keeps spinning his wheels. I suggested he see his IC again to discuss where he (apparently) wants to be versus where he is. He hasn't made an appointment yet, so I'm not sure how or what he hears from me. But I am not happy and I continue to be fearful of the future.
My biggest fear after d-day ... is still my biggest fear today: If he doesn't 'learn' new ways to cope and manage his/our life (as he says he wants to), then what will be his next form of escape? Another affair? Drugs? Alcohol? It will be something ... and I honestly can't do this again.
Kara
This message has been edited by KJR2 on Dec 31, 2006 1:53 PM This message has been edited by KJR2 on Dec 31, 2006 1:49 PM
<moral makeup.>
I'd like to put a different spin on this, if I may.
In many cases, the affair was NOT a lack of morals. It can be a lack of self-esteem, a lack of self-worth, a lack of recognizing that as an individual, personal value is not predicated on someone else "desiring" me, or telling me how wonderful, how beautiful, how sexy or how anything I am.
When we come into this world a blank slate so to speak, many of us are treated so poorly that we have no sense of a deserving self. Not only do we not deserve love from others, but we don't deserve to love and respect ourselves. If a person has no self-respect, then most of the time, they will make some pretty poor choices. They have no base line with which to even consider "morals". A negative belief system can be laid down in which a person believes that they aren't worthy of love, and therefore, how can that person show love, or KNOW love based on honesty, integrity and putting their own needs aside when it comes to an affair. At that point in time they can't. They haven't learned that the lies they believe (sometimes buried deep in their sub-conscious) are just that-LIES.
So if both parties, the BS and the WS have the strength to help the WS grow in self-worth, self-esteem, integrity, then maybe the marriage can make it.
And then again there are some people that are so freakin selfish, self-absorbed, narcisistic and don't give a shit about anyone or anything but themselves- losers in many ways.
Many people who have had an affair can be generous, kind, self-sacrificing, ( wouldn't hurt a flea), but for a period of time either lost or never had a sense of their value and accepted the lie that their "value" came from another wayward person.
I forgot- Happy New Year and remember to value your heart, your soul, your life.
TLMM
This message has been edited by taigalucy on Dec 31, 2006 2:21 PM
Kara, I'm going to disagree; your biggest fear is not if he doesn't learn, it's that he even has to learn.
You're not dealing with a 6 year old here that needs to learn that stealing is wrong. He fully knows the difference between right and wrong. The problem for all of us BS's is believing that our WS's have any real conviction for the delineation of the apparently simple concept of not doing what's wrong and doing what is right.
For me it's deeper; why be with you if his/her eyes are open to another, or better put, others! This happens because someone is open or willing to be on the prowl or to be pursued. For us, since we can't put a finger on the rudimentary issue we ask "Why", right?
The problem is that he/she can't answer this question because they don't know why. They just do/did what they wanted to. This is the shallow, nothing part. All the history, the honest and sincere process of commitment is cast aside for the sake of the satisfaction of adrenalin.
The real question is what allows infidelity to even begin? Many say it is a weakness in the relationship but I believe it is not. It is the weakness of that one person who considers this an exceptable proposition. You see it is indeed nothing, the total absence of any moral fiber whatsoever. We all call it character.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 2:23 PM
But, if your premise is correct then all of these people would have been jailed long ago. They would have never learned not to steal in their youth. Their self centered behavior would have continued to the point that they'd be a liability to society and they likely would have had trouble far beyond "simple" infidelity. No, I can't agree; these are people who hold down jobs, evolve families and every other part of the walk of life.
But, their misguided self appears just here? I just think there is something wrong with this line of thinking. How can you conduct the rest of your life with some degree of understanding of ethical boundaries but you just don't get this part?
I know we all want to see them differently but I think when presented an argument like this there are simply too many refuting behaviors to accept this. They know, they know!
I am no different. I've looked for a million excuses for my WS but in the end intellectual reason and deductive reasoning keeps smacking me in the face; WAKE UP DUMB ASS! it keeps telling me.
If it comforts you and allows you to move forward, by all means, choose a plausible excuse for your WS. You'll feel much better.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 2:41 PM This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 2:40 PM
There is one distinct difference in people making a choice to be a "good citizen" and having an affair. A person doesn't get the same satisfaction, validation, or sense of being loved from a job, or paying their bills, or not stealing, than they do from another person who they feel "loves" them. It is the power of this FALSE LOVE, and the fact that they haven't developed their own self-love that they make a very poor choice.
For what it's worth I am divorced. And much of what I base this philosophy or belief on is what I have seen in my family. My youngest brother IS in prison.
My XH had two affairs ten years apart. I loved him enough to forgive, I just couldn't accept the fact that the OW was, and is a dear friend of his mother's, and his mother continued to fill my H in on what the OW was doing in her life. If I would have stayed the OW would have always been a part of our marriage until death.
Besides, I think my XH wanted an out of the marriage anyway. So
we're both free.
Also, for what it's worth, I still love my XH, and I always will. That is a choice I make.
TLMM
This message has been edited by taigalucy on Dec 31, 2006 2:52 PM
<<Kara, I'm going to disagree; your biggest fear is not if he doesn't learn, it's that he even has to learn.>>
Yes IIC...you are right. I almost gave you a answer of 'I agree and disagree'. Learning is a life-long process. However, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you.
After d-day, it became apparent to me that I had alot of work to do on myself...for many reasons (and not all of them affair-related). While I didn't enjoy the heaping plate of emotional turmoil that I was dealing with...I knew that it was necessary. I was not coming out of this turmoil having only put a half-assed effort into healing. It's just not who I am. I realized (early on) that taking the more painful path to healing was going to be more rewarding in the long term.
How I wish that my H was willing/able to do the same. But it may not be who he is. And that goes hand in hand with why we are here in the first place.
I did not come from a wonderful upbringing. I had more than enough reason to suffer from low self-esteem ... yet somewhere in my life I learned/understood/set standards for myself that would not allow me to make selfish choices. My self-esteem always came from within - I didn't look to outside influences to make me feel better about myself. It can be tough for me to understand how someone (my H) who grew up in a reasonably stable environment, can be so reliant on others to make him feel better about himself.
I think some of the things said are very close to the line for the Open board which should be safe for WS's...especially new WS's who may be lurking.
As far as generalizations and blanket statements that is in the policies and procedures section.
<<<You see it is indeed nothing, the total absence of any moral fiber whatsoever. We all call it character.>>>
If any BS really feels that way then you better question your own motives of why you wanna stay with someone lacking in total moral fiber and character if you truely believe that. If its true they have shown their true colors you better run like hell. It you've been married 15 or 20 yrs that's a long time for someone to keep a mask on. You can't change someone's true character so why stay? Why invest any more time or subject your children to this? You wouldn't with a stranger right? That's what a WS has become to BS...a stranger. You stay because you know one terrible decision does not make the whole person. If you had a crappy marriage beforehand...then maybe you are seeing their true character. The A was just the last straw of continued shitty behavior.
No points or kudos to subjecting yourself to a lost cause if you don't believe people make bad mistakes? That is just self-abuse and that goes way beyond your WS. If you feel you don't deserve any better then that is for you to deal with. Why subject your kids to an unhappy marriage?
If you think a WS's thinking is :"oh lemme see how I can hurt my spouse today" you are way off base in most circumstances. If it is then get out.
Like I stated in my other post...you have options. Getting someone to see the light or saving their soul aren't among them. You stay or leave because you love them. You stay or leave to punish, or fear, or finances, ot the kids or whatever. Your options are to do or not do in the words of Yoda... things you can control. If you chose to stay with someone lacking in character that is your choice.
I wear that WS hat. I don't wear it proudly. I will be the first to admit every crossroad, every major decision in my life I chose the wrong path. I never did a damn thing with the intent of hurting someone though. Believe it. Don't believe it. I really don't care.
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Jan 1, 2007 7:28 AM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 31, 2006 4:09 PM This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Dec 31, 2006 3:25 PM
I'm in the same boat with you Kara, I had the crappy youth and the W came from the perfect family.
IIC is right on the money as far as I am concerned. Cyn should have divorced me for the way I treated her and the marriage. That would have been the right thing to do. She told me that the A seemed like a good option, but D was not? This made me feel like I was nothing but a provider, one she couldn't afford to lose. Yet another reason that the A hurts so bad.
I talked with a guy on SI who was from India. They have an obscure law there that is getting his OM sent to prison for adultery. If there was more moral fiber in this country adultery would be a crime. More people would give it a second thought before crossing that line.
I hear it an awful lot, that if it wasn't this OP then it would have been a different OP. If that is true, then WS are easier than I already thought they were.
Tex, I didn't want to offend but if we BS's could ever get to the bottom, and that is precisely what this discussion is about, then we could maybe have some hope in moving on. If my wife ever said to me "I was a worthless nothing when I allowed X" I would begin to feel as if I wasn't being coveted. Is it ok that I be owned yet she not own, of her own will, the destruction she foisted upon me? She gave away what was not hers to give yet I am to be gracious?
The point is that EVERY BS is righteously entitled to the WS being naked, truly repentent, without indignance, without protection and surely without excuse and surely proving to a BS a total understanding that an application of right verses wrong is not an unreasonable expectation, is it? It is a depth of assurance that every single one of us would like to have to move on with assurance.
Read SI, read here, read anywhere, the pressure to assimilate the "conditions", the "contributing factors", the excuses are ever present for the BS. In the end that is not how a BS resolves. Acceptance does no one any good, it is in true repentence and a vial rejection that is necessary for progression. If she would just do to herself what she was so comfortable doing to me I just might feel differently. I mean unsolicited, without avoidance (for once), a shear baring of ones soul so I can see it, believe in it, trust it!
I guess everyone goes only as far as they think they need to go but, if you think it's enough then you are likely wrong. I hate the word only! "It was only a mistake" "I was only in it for X" "If only I had a chance to remake my decision", the WS has no idea how offensive that is because you were believed in then totally? You were special!!! From that day on it was clear you only cared about one thing, yourself. Every single thing a true companion would never do. In fact we didn't, nor would we.
I know this is hard to hear but if you think your BS is "over it" maybe you need to think about what you have revealed. It's not about details, fuck them, it's about you!
Never mind, I don't think it's possible to understand until you have been stripped by the one person you gave your entire self to. Atonement is an ellusive idea but going too far would be the one thing a BS could appreciate beyond description. That is NEVER what a WS does. They deal with it from a minimum perspective; No more than what's asked, don't bring it up, don't rock the boat, yet it is the absolute opposite of what we need. Just once could you fight through your own discomfort for me, just fucking once?
I'm sorry, I know you want it in the past, you want it forgiven and you've gotten that, but your efforts never allow it to be forgotten! Whether you understand it, or not, it is a permanent purgatory. You will never be told that you hold the key but you do, at the same time, will you ever seek it? Why is this hard? How would you want to be treated? What would it take for you to feel redeemed, assured?
This is why they all say, I will forgive, but, I will never forget! Hence, 78%
This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 4:40 PM This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 4:36 PM
Let's all remember that Open is for both BS and WS. Open is a SAFE place for WS to post - and frankly, some of these posts are a little combatant towards the WS. Maybe Discovery or Further would be a more appropriate place for this thread.
In addition to what Tex has said (excellent post again) I would also like to add that we as a BS must do our own work and our own personal growth to ensure that we are the best we can be in a relationship too.
Granted the affair has nothing to do with us, but when you are given that opportunity it is a waste to not use it. Communication is flowing and it is the perfect time to pull up your socks and realize nobody is perfect and do your own share of work to get better and maybe even become a better spouse than you were.......we can't expect a WS to make everything 100% perfect on their own, that just isn't the way life works.
I have even met some people who will tell you that their marriages are better now than they ever have been. Is it a direct result of the affair - not likely. More likely it is the fact that both parties put a serious effort into their marriage, into communication, into intimacy, into his and her needs and the marriage was the chief focus of their lives for a long period of time with much growth ensuing. Marriages take 2 people and are a constantly changing and evolving thing. Affair or not, it takes alot of effort to maintain.
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Dec 31, 2006 5:37 PM
No Tex, I completely understand. I understand that it was indeed not about me. So do tens of thousands of BS's, so does your BS. You some how think that makes things better, but it is the root of the problem, it makes it much, much worse.
Hating the OP, man, misguided self hate. It ain't their fault, they just had an "open" sign out there. You're the one that decided she meant little enough to grab it.
Feel good? That is your problem to deal with your BS, not with me. I'll bet you're beating yourself on the chest about how you "think" she is feeling. Do you even know, do you even ask?
Bottom of it is perceived redemption verses unadulterated (no pun intended), without excuse making, redemption. Your "pain" is not fair to throw upon her. Well, maybe not, she deserves all of this doesn't she? Have I done enough honey? The words don't even need to be spoken do they? Then it is followed up with "enough already!" right?
It's always the same isn't it? For the WS is it is the pain I've endured through this life that entitled me to destroy you. And for the BS it's how can you have the audacity to be selfish when you are committed to me?
You really have pointed out the problem - the line! The line in the sand is drawn. You'll not be told, but, you want total and complete acceptance, right? You drew that line very nicely with me, and so do tens of thousands of other WS's. I'm sure your BS completely understands.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Dec 31, 2006 6:33 PM
How many years IfIcould are you going to hold your wife on the cross for a mistake? the next 5, 10, forever??
You must surely be God because your coming across as perfect, like you have never made a single mistake in your life.
The WS's that come here have done everything humanly possible to make up for their affair. They screwed up, they know it and likely they will spend the rest of their life dealing with what they have done. Walk a day in their footsteps and it is filled with a pain very similar (but very different) to that of a BS.
What more do you want of them IfIcould.....should they hang themselves for you, be burned at the stake.....do you really think that would make your demons go away??!!
If you truly cannot forgive your wife then you at least owe it to her to admit that and let her go. By holding onto a marriage that you don't believe in anymore you are just prolonging everybody's agony. Perhaps that is your mistake to own?
I healed on my own with absolutely no help or remorse from my ex-spouse and I have learned to accept that people make mistakes and marriages fail. It is that simple. I didn't have anybody beside me apologizing for their actions, but I have forgiven him. I didn't forgive him for him, I forgave him so that I could let it go and be a happy, healthy person again.
I am sorry that you are in so much pain, but coming to this board (especially open) and bashing every WS out there instead of focusing on your own issues isn't the way to garner sympathy or help and support. There are some really good people out there, many of whom are very close personal friends of mine, and YES many of them are WS. That doesn't make them horrible people....
I don't hate my exhusband for what he has done, I just wish he had the guts and self esteem to just tell me he wanted out.
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Dec 31, 2006 6:55 PM
Don't let him get under your skin bro. Only people you need to make ammends to are you and your W. I have been reading a lot of what IIC has written and most of it, I feel the same. I love my wife desperately. She admits she was selfish and didn't care enough about me at the time to think I'd care. That hurts, but what really hurts is the self-realization that I treated her like shit and I am lucky she didn't divorce my stupid ass. It doesn't make what she did right. But neither is what I did. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others. She has lost my trust, some of which can never be regained.
IIC, I am bitter too, but I am better. I have been a lot like you, looking for an answer to a question that I don't even know what it is or is ever changing. You seem to be so caught up in your hurt that, no matter what she says or does, it will never be good enough. She has healing to do too. I forced answers out of my W. Other's it took years to get, just because your WS doesn't want to be reminded of the hurt THEY CAUSED YOU, doesn't mean they are over it or have swept it under the rug. I do not like excuses either, they all stink and are just that, excuses. You coming here to vent is OK, but if you still have unresolved issues, shouldn't you be talking about them with your W, instead of beating up other WS's?
Look at me............trying to give advice........LOL
Jordan
This message has been edited by firemandown on Dec 31, 2006 7:19 PM
I am sincerely sorry. I've not wanted to offend yet I am interested in presenting everything that a WS may not actually hear or actually know. Maybe some might want to know what is really deep inside of their BS. So I'm going to do this differently. This way you won't see me as your judge or your demonizer;
You go to a party with all of your best friends. They are couples from way back. All people who you, and your wife/husband, value as life long friends and you are sincerely interested in their lives and their wellbeing. They are among your most highly respected.
As the night wears on you decide to introduce the subject of infidelity. You describe how you have become involved with a very special person from work and he/she is very interested in you and your life. Your husband/wife is at your side while you describe it all. You go on to tell everyone what you had decided to do. You give explicit details to what went on and you include that, without the dismal condition of your marriage/relationship, you would have never let this all progress as it did. At the same time you pronounce just how pleased you are at your newly found intimacy and that it exhilarates you as nothing has for some time. Again, your spouse is standing beside you. The discussion ends in the complete silence of the entire room. As you look around the room every single person is staring at you in disbelief. The subject changes and the night moves forward.
As people dismiss themselves for the evening you are the subject of every drive home. Your best friend tells his wife of his shock and dismay that you could possibly do this to the sweet pea that you're married to. At the same time there are 5 more couples on their way home discussing your flip attitude toward this new relationship and, worse, your total disregard for your wife/husband standing next to you while you tell the whole sorted story. What do you think they're saying about you?
This discussion comes up around all of your mutual friends. Your indignance would be measurably different, wouldn't it? There would not be one person in the room who didn't know who was victimized and not one that would fail to see your excuse making and justification as exactly that. Not one would see any reason to this beyond self, would they? In the end you would be permanently "branded" by your friends. They would see you permanently as totally different, from this secret life, than the persona that you normally put forward. You are now a different person to every single person in the room. Keep in mind these are your closest friends. Yet you proceed with Mrs. Bethy!
Almost as suddenly as your proclamations, your friends pull away and do all they can to endear themselves to your betrayed spouse and comfort her/him. As time progresses they will have nothing to do with you and they choose to include your wife/husband in their social events, yet not you. I wonder why?
Yet you are confounded by the fact that your spouse now sees you as an unknown. A person of little fiber at all. The drive home for you is totally different. You are on the offensive and you tell him/her that you did what you did because of her/him!
Of course things don't go this way. In reality, it is all veiled in secrecy so you can wage war one battle at a time, especially with your spouse. Manipulation of a human being is an isolating, pervasive and a magical process. Without solidarity your chance of success would be all but nothing.
At the same time you are willing to take your chances since, if found out, your spouse will be the only one able to reveal you. They are terribly shamed and therefore try everything to minimize their shame. So they choose few to seek support from. You are now a master of manipulating your environment so you press more for acceptance of your "mistake". Belligerence and ignorance are among your most potent weapons. You have little understanding of his/her difficulty in adjusting to your "mistake". At the same time you know full well, in the presence of all of your friends, you would be less than defenseless. Still you press your cause forward with evasive tactics and mistruths. All designed for one purpose; to have what you want and still have the other of what you want. You, unabashedly think you can pull this off. I can take advantage of his/her love and use it to prove she/he is crazy. It is subtle and effective. So, you use all the faith he/she has in you to deceive for your advantage. You continue your new found relationship even in the open knowledge of your, so called, beloved.
You know, I could take this story to a bitter conclusion but that is not the point. I am not interested in your acceptance of me. I am interested in your acceptance of what you have willingly done to the one who loves you. You’re surprised that this is more than difficult and yet presented in front of all of your friends you’d be no more than a sheep in a room of wolves, wouldn’t you?
Your anger is nothing more than revealing your arrogance of what you’ve been able to get by with. Get angry with me all you want. Still, the statistics are very, very clear; 78% of reconciled believe they are in unhappy or empty relationships. It is not my statistic it is yours; you have created the numbers, not I.
All I can offer is that if you even think you are done and have your misdeeds behind you then you have no idea of the human psyche. Maybe now is the time to actually ask, listen and try to really, really regain what you once had with one very special person. I submit that you really do not know. Have you really tried to ask? Or, are you too busy covering, moving on or sweeping under the rug what you have done?
I’ll not be returning. You are people who want affirmation, not true light. Human boundaries are not about infidelity, they are far, far greater than that. It’s about dignity and reverence and the true meaning of commitment. Is it any wonder why people are constantly on the prowl for intimacy? It is right next to you, right now.
I have been following this one, and elected to keep my mouth (or fingers as you will) shut until now because there is nothing I like more than a good debate.
However, as, (in my never to be humble opinion) as bad as this post seemed to get, as close to the borderline as it went, there was a lesson learned. There was good that came from it.
Jordan, you made the following comment:
IIC,
I need to thank you, your posts made me see what I look like in the mirror and I didn't like it.
Jordan
Remember these words the next time the roller coaster from hell plunges you downwards at break neck speed. It has taken time, and thousands of words, but what it took was someone who it seems is in a much worse place than you, this made you look in the mirror.
You may not realize the step forward you have taken, just remember you have taken it.
For a long time I wanted to find people like me, bitter. I wanted to hurt and have everyone see it. Hell, I know the WS's hurt, but like this guy, it wasn't enough for me. The more I read from him, the more I felt he knew what I felt. For a long time I only wanted to hear poor Jordan, we feel so bad for you, treat your WS like crap, afterall, she deserves it for doing this to me. Kill the OM, he did this to you too. But you guys wouldn't do that so I'd get pissed and do what I wanted. Sure I still hurt, but my W can't cry for fear I will come unglued. She can't look away in shame for what she did, because I will come unglued. Times when I can't bear to look at her, she hold's me because she caused this. She is holding me together. She is remorseful, she accepts what her responsibility for hurting me. IIC says he is well past D-Day, but he can't forgive the woman he say's he loves? No one says you can ever forget, I know I won't. But why can't you forgive? If not, why can't he move on? If my moral fiber forbids me to accept my WS failures, then I'd stick to my guns and move on. There are others who do not cheat. The big question is why did she cheat? IIC never answered that. Was it because she was a sexaholic? Was it because she lost that loving feeling? Was it like my case, where I was a completely uncaring ass for the past 6 years? Sure what I did doesn't excuse the behavior. As a matter of fact, it makes it hurt even more. So are you in denial of the underlying causes or do you have no clue in the world why she did it? If it is the second, then I can see why you are lost and bitter. You would need to talk to your WS to get this resolved or move on. If it is the first, then you need to grow up and get off your pity pot.
The biggest mistake that IIC has posted about this site, ""You are people who want affirmation, not true light"". They do not coddle WS's here. They beat the hell out of my wife right off the bat, not for affirmation but for truth. So if you think you have seen coddling going on, your at the wrong place. SI coddles the WS's not here.
Jordan
I kind of wished they had coddled me, but then I'd end up like IIC, so it's all good.
This message has been edited by firemandown on Jan 1, 2007 10:29 AM This message has been edited by firemandown on Jan 1, 2007 10:27 AM
Well stated, Jordan. You've come a long way in a short time, brother, and that's to be commended. No, that's not coddling (Heaven forbid!), just a statement of what I see.
As for what started this whole thread.... I'm still wondering about that whole 78% thing. Rather than read a stat and take it as gospel, I tend to rely more on my experiences on boards like these over almost 8 years.
Given my experiences, I would have to say that BS's (and WS's) who have stayed in their marriage FOR MORE THAN 4 YEARS PAST D-DAY, and who have worked hard on personal healing are a lot more happy than 78%. I'd say that number is more like 95%.
Under that 4 years? Considering that it normally takes about 2 years to just get past the initial trauma, that means you've only been really "healing" for two years. That's not a lot of time, so bitterness and unhappiness are to be expected in that timeframe. I think if you made a "line of demarcation", that under 4 year group would respond to the happiness question at about 40%, not 78%. I know that at 3 years post D-Day, I wasn't truly happy.
Keep in mind my favorite stat: 86% of all statistics are wrong...
As for many of IIC's broad generalizations... Flat out wrong, and if he wants to come hang out with some people who will PROVE him wrong, he's welcome to contact me. Personally, I don't think he'd take me up on it. I get the feeling he likes being a martyr too much....
There comes a point in time, and maybe he's not there yet, where healing yourself and your marriage isn't about an affair anymore. Some people, because of their inability to accept that, remain stuck forever. The affair ends up defining who they are, and it's a very sad thing to witness. Some of us "old folk" on the boards have seen it more than once. It can get a bit frustrating, as we can see the signs, but the person who is at the most peril of falling into that trap either refuses to, or doesn't, see it.
Jordan, speaking honestly, I saw those signs in you early on. I'm happy to see that you recognized it as well.... You're not out of the woods yet, but I think you're starting to see that path...
Yes, for some of us, we can look at our own behavior pre affair and know that we were part of the underlying cause for unhappiness in our relationships. Like you said, that is not justification for an affair.
The reason or reasons why are still something I don't understand. Over the last four years, in many tearful discussions, some quiet, most not so quiet, I honestly believe my wife thought I didn't love her anymore.
Due to depression, that I recognized and was trying to fight on my own without medications, I withdrew from her emotionally, and without the emotions, withdrew physically intimacy from her.
Now again, there is no justification, but I can see the stress that this put on the basic foundation of our relationship. This is not assigning blame, its simply recognizing that in a two person relationship, I was not holding up my end of it.
I however didn't look outside myself to find validation or happiness; I do honestly believe that she wasn't looking for the affair. The OM in this case was defined by first our minister, and then a Christian counselor as a "predator." He recognized weakness and loneliness and then orchestrated his eventual conquest.
He used his wife, my wife, and myself to achieve his goal. He knew us very well and played us like pawns on his own personal chessboard. Since he had 3 previous affairs in the previous 6 to 7 years he knew his wife would recognize the behavior. So before he ever started making a move on my wife, he confided in both of us that his wife was off her medications, (she was never on meds) that she was irrational. He did this starting in September of 2001, he never even made a "personal" phone call to my wife until late November of 2001. We saw them a couple of times a week and he always gave us the "poor me" treatment.
When his wife started trying to convice me he was cheating with my wife in January of 2002 I was brainwashed into thinking she was nuts. Hell, a week after he called my wife into the office at the bowling alley (that my mother was part owner of and he and his wife co managed) grabbed her and kissed her, he gave me a entry form to a Walley Tournament we had been planning on fishing.
Now who would be putting a move on his best friends wife if he wanted to fish a big money tournament in a few months? The guy duped me totally.
So all of this doesn't answer the question why, but it sure makes it easier to understand how it happened, how it progressed, and how he ultimately succeeded in reaching his goal in late April. Then for the next two months he wanted sex several more times and my wife told him no. The emotional part of the affair was still going, but after one sexual encounter she stopped the physical part.
I have no idea of the particulars in your case Jordan, nor do I need to know. But understand that just like in high school, there are guys, I won't say men, but guys that never grow up and only want to put another notch on the bedpost for their conquests. They read situations, prey on women, and have no moral values or remorse of their own.
Me, I am grateful for a FORMER wandering spouse that has been the glue in holding us together for the last 4 plus years. I only wish we could have found this level of open and honest communication without the affairs. But I honestly don't believe we would have. No, I am not able to forget the affairs happened, but I can point to a new level of communication that was a positive result.
What is it they say, "there is a silver lining in every storm cloud." No, the lining doesn't erase the past. I guess the choice to concentrate on the silver lining and not the storm cloud is what takes so damn much time.
Dave
Edited to add:
Gee Whiz Cory...was typing this and you came back with a much more concise answer and well stated I might add.
This message has been edited by OleMarbleEyes on Jan 1, 2007 11:38 AM This message has been edited by OleMarbleEyes on Jan 1, 2007 11:35 AM
IIC accuses folks here of "coddling" someone. I guess since he posted it on the Open board, he must mean WS. I guess he is trying to tell us that an affair is an unforgivable, unforgettable occurrence. I guess he is trying to tell us that WS deserve a lifetime of emotional imprisonment for their crimes.
One question: who in IIC's house is really in prison?
Perfection is a horrible prison to build around oneself.
In the words of Billy Joel: "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints/The sinners are much more fun..."
And I seem to remember hearing some stories of some guy 2000 years ago dining with prostitutes and tax collectors, to the absolute horror of his social circle. Wasn't He cast out of "proper society"?
I am really in the same boat as you Dave. The OM was a past boyfriend who used her family for info and played her to the hilt the day his mom died. Predator all the way, really the biggest reason I still want to beat his ass. Now that Cyn heard from his mouth how he used her and he has confessed to what he did, I have really lost my overwhelming desire to take him out. I have hurt him a little emotionally and mentally. I am not justifing what I did as right, it wasn't done to help the relationship, it was done for revenge and anger. But for some stupid reason, every time I do something shitty, I still come out smelling like a rose. My harrassing him got him to tell what he did and why. I am really half-hearted now in my desire to beat his ass, but like I said, next time I get mad, I probably will. I am making progress, but I know I will still have transgressions and make more mistakes, but hopefully the HUGE mistakes are done.
Chris mentioned about perfect people living in their own prison, my shrink called me on that right off the bat. No matter how perfect you think you are, you're not. You do not have the power and control you think you do and never will, unless you're God. If not, you are going to have to face your own flaws sometime.
Jordan
Bitter, but better.
edited to fix my mistake spelling mistake.......LOL
This message has been edited by firemandown on Jan 1, 2007 1:09 PM This message has been edited by firemandown on Jan 1, 2007 12:39 PM This message has been edited by firemandown on Jan 1, 2007 12:25 PM
Not to get overly religious here, but all this brings up a "moment" in my own recovery.
It was only a couple of days after D-Day, and I was full-on in the midst of righteous anger, combined with the whole, "I would/could NEVER do what she did, how dare she, etc...."
My mother looked at me at and said, "You know, there was only one perfect person in the history of the world, and He died on a cross for the rest of us."
Moms can be so cool...
Thanks for the compliment, Dave... Are you snowed in again?
Cory
"Do nothing which is of no use." Miyamoto Musashi
This message has been edited by BlindJustice on Jan 1, 2007 3:53 PM
You know Cory, you couldn't be more right. You're mother was so right!
That, is not the discussion. Just once acknowledge how you feel because of this betrayal! Without sympathy or feeling for your WS.
Spout all you will but the telling is in the remaining respondants. You want to relieve them but why? The ones who fail to respond are WS's. That they don't respond speaks of their fiber. It speaks volumes of their character. I am being complimantary here, that they don't respond is an indication of their true remorse and their desire to make the one they hurt whole. They are not looking to defend. They are truly repentent. In other words their not sure how they're feeling. That really is a very good sign. Tex in particular. He was pissed off in the 1st place. He could have blasted me but he is hurting and I can feel it, I can feel his tears. I'm sorry Tex!!! I know that I can feel you.
I was not wanting to run anyone into the ground but I would bet that discussions are happening and, for once, their BS is really, really, being heard.
I know that a WS is feeling pain but that pain is legitimately rejected because it truly is invalid. Not for a WS, but for a BS not at all sure this is a worthwhile endeavor. See it for what it is WS's. Whether these BS's, that have commented, have risen above is irrelavant. In fact it is irrelavant for you BS's who've commented. I too, to my WS, have risen above it all. Thankfully there is this forum, without impunity, that I can express my deepest.
I believe "our" healing is far beyond this level of acceptance. It's not the commentary, or should I say "the affirmation", but rather the unadulterated acceptance of blame that dimishes it's power.
Many of us have now progressed from this "needy" stage. WS's from external neediness and for the BS from internal neediness, still this rudimentary and most special need for all of us still exists. I believe it is a spiritual connection that all of us insatiably need. We don't even know how to speak of it. It is in the closing of ones eyes and to taste her, to smell her, to want him, to feel him, that is at the core of our need. It is the basis of comfort, of settled, of resolved of fullfilled. Of the feeling of sitting in front of a burning fire while it is snowing outside. It is an inherent feeling of peace.
I know that most that have responded are BS's that wish to defend their friends (WS's) but I am most moved by those WS's that have not responded. I think many of you BS's are in denial. I could well be wrong but wouldn't you like to get to the bottom of this? Would it not give you a closure that you need but you don't know how? It's almost like the final closure of an internment or a funeral.
Look, I am not looking to be right I am looking beyond. If you want to respond give me more than indignace. I want substance, an understanding. I am not interested in the usual; "it takes time", "it was the fog", "it's like a drug" and how many others. I am looking for the intellectual.
Piss me off, challenge me, challenge you, how do we resolve this behavior, this choice? Tell me they're selfish, but, don't tell me they're ignorant or stupid or caused. Choices are made, they are not pressed or coerced or forced. People act of free will. Why is this their will?
Or is it merely a matter of acceptance? If it is, then neither you, nor I are any bigger than the values that guide your life or mine! Tell me this is an issue beyond character, beyond values? And, how do those values change?
This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 2, 2007 6:23 PM
You know the ironic part, IFICould is that you don't know Tex's story and you are assuming things about him that most of us already realize aren't true. Tex has long been a rock for many of us, for about the past 4 years he has been a rock for me. He was here previous to that as well (although I can't say exactly when).
You see, Tex and I used to hang together in chat many many lonely nights and talk about how much pain we both as BS's were in. Since then we both made great progress and have let go of the hurt and the pain associated with being betrayed. Tex has chosen to take your lashing out as a WS for some crazy reason, but the truth is that he knows the pain of both sides of an affair. He knows where you are coming from just as much as he knows where GT etc are coming from.
IIC --
I am W of firemandown. I also read the threads on this site and post as I wish. I've been reading the things you have posted and until now have not felt the need to say anything... because you are basically correct. I've read many many posts on this site and on SI and I feel that I am one of the most remorseful WS out there. I'm not looking for any pats on my back or anything like that..... I am just wanting you to get a feel of how I feel. For starters, no.... Jordan (firemandown) did not get me to post on here for his benefit. He has encouraged me to post what I want and when I want and this is one of the times that I am choosing to be on here. I am soooo very sorry for what I have done to my husband, our kids and our marriage. Many a time, Jordan has said that he wished he could just fall asleep and never wake up.... I also feel that way about myself. I have many a time told this very site how I wish it was me who could be able to do that. At this moment, I really do not feel like going into all that had occurred in my A.. but, I will tell you IIC that I really do have my own questions of "why" and "how could I". To this day, they are still questions that are in my head. Over the past 5 months since Dday, I have given Jordan answers that best suited his question of "why?". At this point of our R, I have been openly asking myself if those answers were indeed correct. I really don't know. I have not let up on myself trying to figure it out. When I do know answers.... ANY answers, Jordan will be the first to hear them AND as soon as I know them. I thought I used to know the 'why' answer... "because I wanted to feel needed, to be held, to be talked to and listened to, to feel loved, to feel desired physically and emotionally, blah blah blah blah blah" .... part of me sometimes feel like those excuses still apply, but for the most part... that is exactly what they are - excuses. I know that... and I'm still searching more into because Jordan doesn't want to have to accept that and neither do I.
Yes,.... I did NEED to feel needed, desired, loved, etc.....
BUT... I could have and should have MADE my husband fulfill those needs or LEAVE. I didn't and I have to live with my horrible decision.
Basically why I am responding to the post:
I can not speak for all WS out there....but, for me..... it may or may not take a long time to figure out the "why".... but, the truely remorseful ones will not stop trying to figure it out and will tell the BS as soon as they do.
Immature love says: "I love you because I need you."
Mature love says: "I need you because I love you."
(Erich Fromm)
... Cory.........That, is not the discussion. Just once acknowledge how you feel because of this betrayal! Without sympathy or feeling for your WS.
Cory will answer or not this question -
We are 8+ years past d-day and this is no longer about his betrayal with or "without sympathy or feelings" about my H. This is about life the good, the bad, and sometimes the ugly. It is about the decision we made, the choice we make every day to be with and where we want... together under the same roof, sharing a life of strong feelings for each other. Living in the NOW, looking at a future, a constant give and take flow.
IIC, you would like an intellectual discussion - about what???
The OPEN forum is a forum for WS - not for BS to freely bash WS. The OPEN is their place to feel safe and share with us. It is our responsiblity to make this forum a SAFE place for THEM.
And you wonder, IIC, why WS do not interact with you? I made friends on this site, real solid friends from both side of the equation. It comes a time, IIC, when it is no longer about an affair... it is about life - and shit happens.....
You don't remember, apparently, but I've been around these parts for over a year. I just haven't responded for a long time. You and I have had more than a couple of debates. You always approach everything as defense of another. It is admirable but it doesn't speak to the issues I bring up.
Tex, on the other hand, goes right to the heart of the issue. I like that. Still if you think that I don't think he is real or relavant you're wrong, I do. Still, I am asking questions beyond the usual now and am challenging everyone's perception of "BS" vs "WS" and beyond.
Get irritated, be protective, go ahead assail me, but, while you're defending all of your Friends, recognize there are many people who continue in there relationships without resolution and in fear of the future. Probably more than you know. You made a choice but there are many that didn't make a choice, they merely exist on the hopes that one day their WS will make things right.
I would guess this means something different for everyone but it still means there is unfinished busienss born of reluctance to address the problem. The one who should address the problem is the perpetrator, not the victim. That is my point.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 2, 2007 6:56 PM
You say bash Cory for one thing then you slam me for the other side of the issue. It is a little confusing.
Bashing WS's? How I don't believe I've spoken one mistruth, have I? So, I guess you, and maybe others, don't like how it's presented. Is that what you're saying?
"You don't remember, apparently, but I've been around these parts for over a year. I just haven't responded for a long time. You and I have had more than a couple of debates. You always approach everything as defense of another. It is admirable but it doesn't speak to the issues I bring up."
Oh trust me I can clearly remember those debates. If it were me I would be asking myself why everytime I posted it turned into a debate? I would also be asking myself why what I had said required defending from anybody. Did what I say hurt somebody?
You may have been around for what you feel to be a long time, but you haven't taken the time to get to know any of us in detail. Your loss I am afraid.
Sometimes it isn't about the message we are sending, but rather how it is delivered.
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Jan 2, 2007 7:43 PM
>>People act of free will. Why is this their will?<<
Everyone is a unique individual.
Everyone has free will.
Uniqueness, or differentiation, will manifest itself through free will and result in different choices.
And then there's this: some people don't intellectualize everything. Strange as it may seem, some people act on feelings instead of thinking. Or they act on distorted thinking. Most people don't take the time to run a proposed course of action past a moral/ethical/philosophical authority (such as IIC), which has resulted in the truism that "it is better to seek forgiveness than permission."
All of which only proves the first premises: people act of free will, and they act independently and individually. Sometimes with disastrous results.
The question that most often occupies me is "how is it that some people cope with and adjust internally to affronts and misfortune, and some refuse?"
<The one who should address the problem is the perpetrator, not the victim. That is my point.>
With all due respect, IIC, the only one who owes you an explanation is your wife. The WSs who post and read here don't owe you anything - especially when you refer to them as people who completely lack moral fiber, people made of absolutely nothing, and those lacking in character. You shouldn't wonder why more of them don't respond to your questions.
What does YOUR perpetrator give as her reason? In all honesty, what answer would EVER be good enough?
I guess I'm just at a loss, IIC. It's abundantly clear to me that you don't want or need our help. You have a very clear vision of what is wrong with the WSs of the world, the BSs of the world and even this site (we only want to coddle and we don't want the light).
There is "nothing" that exists, categorically, in EVERY WS or BS. There is no inner demon in me. Thankfully, I chose to work MY ass off to rid myself of that albatross. Not knowing "why" does not haunt me. There are things in life that simply defy a "logical" explanation, that I can't get my head around. I just chalk those things up to, "Things I have no control over that (thankfully) don't change the way I live my life."
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
I wish I could shed some light on that. I can't. Maybe that's why I'm having troubles. Everything else in my life I can pragmatically work my way through.
This one I can't! I do understand your intimation though. I'm sorry to disappoint you.
What a great post to think about!
Monica, really, you are an inspiration to me. I admire that you just, move on!
This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 2, 2007 10:45 PM
She moved on because, like me, she had no choice. If we didn't heal ourselves we would be still in an awful state.
I think for some people that stay married they don't get that opportunity to not have any other choice but to heal, they want the WS to fix everything. Having nobody else around really puts things into perspective quickly.
Jordan, you said:
"That, is not the discussion. Just once acknowledge how you feel because of this betrayal! Without sympathy or feeling for your WS."
Um, I can tell you how I FELT... Over 8 years ago. Remember, I'm looking backwards from the perspective of someone who already went through it all, am here only to help others (those that want help), and am in a marriage that is FAR better than it ever was. It's better because we both grew up, faced our demons, and dealt with them.
You want to know why many of us defend our spouse's? I'll tell you why I defend mine. Because unlike you, I KNOW my W, I KNOW what she did to heal herself and our marriage. You sir, don't know shit about her, and you have made blanket statement after blanket statement about WS's, NONE of which are valid. And then you try to say that I shouldn't get pissed and defend my W when you say she has no moral fiber? Let me put it this way, IIC: Say a prayer of thanks tonight that we're not living in society as it was 300 years ago, because if we were, I'd be doing to you the same thing that I've done to many defenseless bricks, pieces of lumber and tournament adversaries through the years.
So my question to YOU is, are you REALLY looking to heal, or is it just too fun for you to engage in philosiphical debate, while wallowing in your self pity? The more I read your posts, the more convinced I am that I was right: The affair has defined YOU, not the other way around. You want a challenge? Prove me wrong.
Here's my attitude to EVERYONE that posts here: The affair happened, I'm sorry about that, I've been where you are and understand how you feel... Now, what are you going to DO about it? What I mean by that is, if you want to heal, you have to work at it. If you're willing to work, I'm there.
Jordan, you said:
"I know that a WS is feeling pain but that pain is legitimately rejected because it truly is invalid."
Okay, let me get this straight: You're saying the pain a WS feels is invalid, yet you also claim the reason they haven't responded is because of their guilt?
You want bottom line, IIC? You're full of shit, how's that? You're trying to make logical sense out of something that isn't logical. For someone who's supposed to be an intellectual, that's pretty stupid.
You spoke of neediness, and how we all have it. You want to know one of the key factors in MY recovery? It was the day I realized that I DIDN'T need my W, or anyone else for that matter, to make me a whole person. So again, your blanket presumption fails. I have my honor, I have my integrity, and I am happy. I am with my W because I CHOOSE to be there, and she's with me for the same reason. It's a choice we all make every day of our lives, affair or no affair.
Tell me, IIC, if you can, what do you do when something terrible happens that you have absolutely no control over?
THAT'S your question of the day, and it's a question anyone dealing with an affair has to answer... Because you're living it.
"Only when we realize we have no control can we gain any"
Cory
PS: I'm REALLY sorry you left us. Oh wait, I see you didn't leave. See, even YOU can't keep your word.
Cory, you quoted him as me twice. You are also letting your anger get the best of you grasshopper. He is winning because he is getting the fight he was looking for, you guys never let me win.
Cory, whew, I'm guessing that was like a visit to the John, you must feel a lot better?
I am very happy for you that your wife is quite spactacular. That really is very cool.
It is also rare. I've spent well over a year reading the reactions and stories of WS's and I'm not biting. Your scenario is yours but it simply is not the norm. It doesn't take reading SI, here or anywhere else to learn the common patterns. I don't think you should be offended, I think you should be proud. Maybe you have a lot to do with it? Maybe I have a lot to do with my issues with my wife? I don't know.
I am sorry they are sweeping generalizations. Would you prefer they come from Peggy Vaughn? Marriage Builders, or some of the many other infidelity writers/experts? I can get them for you if you'd like. There are many that write about these patterns and the behaviors of the vast majority of WS's is "sweepingly" similar.
Frank Pittman, a 30 year expert in the field, states that what causes one to become a WS is a character flaw. It is also stated in "His needs, Her needs". Those comments are echoed throughout the industry. The difference is they are not speaking of your darling. They are speaking "in general". It is a situation, as many others, of if the shoe fits. Isn't it?
First off, Jordan, my extreme apologies. You see, I have no issue when people want to make comments about me, but when I feel a loved one is attacked, it's about the only thing that will make me lose my temper. Been working on that one for 30 years, brother, haven't licked it yet...
Second, IIC, as usual, I noticed you didn't address any of the points I made.
Third, saying people have a character flaw is the same as saying people have eyes. Saying all WS's have no moral fiber is a direct attack.
And I defend my W BECAUSE I am proud of her.... DUH!
Wow, you've been reading for over a year? Gee, does that mean we should be bowing down to your incredible experience? Trust me on this one, you REALLY don't want to compare affair recovery resumes... And yes, I'm proud of that too. You see, I count Peggy as one of my friends, and even though she's retired, I still correspond with her. When she closed the message boards on her site about 7 years ago (where some of us here met), I made a promise to her that I would pay it forward. She helped save my marriage, and I was going to do what I could to repay a debt that could never be repaid. I remember what a pleasant suprise it was to find that one of my posts had been selected by the SI people to be archived forever in their helpful links section. I'm still trying to figure out how they did that, as I had never posted on their site.
So please, if you want to debate, try addressing the points instead of just taking one phrase and trying to turn it around. That's a basic debate strategy I learned in 8th Grade, and it doesn't work. I've typed two long posts, brought up what I think are valid points (what you wanted), challenged you (you asked for that as well), etc. Yet you're not addressing them.... Cowardice? Afraid to look inside yourself and realize it's not your W, it's YOU? I guess that's the difference between you, me, and my W. My W and I weren't afraid to explore those depths, bring them out and deal with them face to face, as we both knew the end result would be a better person, and by extension, a better relationship and marriage. We made a commitment to heal, as individuals AND as a couple.
IF (and that's a big "IF") that 78% number is valid, I say it's because the BS who responded, if they're well past D-Day (say a minimum of 4 years), are still unhappy because they found it too easy to blame THEIR flaws on what their spouse did. It's much easier to say that a flaw in YOU is there because your spouse put it there. It's not so easy to admit the flaw is YOU, and you don't have the guts to deal with it. This is what I see in you, IIC. You claim to be intellectual, yet I'm curious as to why you're not mentally (or emotionally?) strong enough to face this demon.
And I stand by my experience, as I said before. In almost 8 years of being on boards like this, among the couples who have stayed together, I'd say the happiness rate is more like 50# (caveat: Minimum 4 years past D-Day). You see, IIC, what I don't think you realize is that happiness is a choice. I CHOOSE to be happy, which being a realist is tough at times. As long as you choose to not be happy, to focus on that bitterness, then you will not be happy.
Am I bitter now? Nope, I can honestly say I'm not. The road we took was long, it had many twists, turns, potholes and even a few washouts. We're still on that road, but the way is much smoother than ever. You say you don't like plattitudes like, "It takes time". I guess the truth hurts. The reality is, it DOES take time, and again, it's your choice whether to like it or not, but the facts are the facts, and you can't change them (just like the fact your W had an affair). I've said this many times, and I'll say it again. I wish to God that I could invent a switch that would make all this go away for eveyone here. If I did that, I'd be able to buy Microsoft, and pay cash for it.
Given my background, I relate much of life to fighting. In my years of competition, I lost fights, although I'm happy to say I won more than I lost. Was I bitter after a loss? You bet. Was I pissed? Oh yeah, very. However, when the fight was over, I had a choice: Wallow in that bitterness, pain (emotional and sometimes physical), and anger, or step up, analyze what had happened, and figure out why that fight was lost. I would then take the steps necessary to ensure I didn't make that same mistake. To do this, I had to dig down deep, examine not only the physical part of the fight, but the mental/emotional as well. They say that you never truly know another person's soul, and your own, until you've faced them in combat, and it's true. I think the biggest lesson I learned in all this was that a fight is fluid, contantly changing, and if you can't adapt yourself to what is going on, then you'll lose, period.
Looking back now, I've come to realize this was great training for affair recovery. I'd already been to those dark places and knew them well, so for me, there was no fear in going there again and REALLY dealing with them from a life perspective. When it came to recovering from the affair, I made a commitment that it was a fight I was NOT going to lose. I had to change strategies many times, made many mistakes and had many small victories. I came out in the end with the big win.
You asked, "What can you do?" For you, I regrettably feel the answer is nothing. You said it yourself that you already know what's right and wrong. You already know the way, at least according to you. So what if others who are much further along than you try to tell you differently? Unless or until that mindset can change, no one will be able to help you. Except you.
You said my mother was smart. You may agree with her on an intellectual level, but given your writing, something tells me that you don't agree, way down deep where it REALLY counts. I would love to see you put aside your brain for a while and try FEELING instead of analyzing. Or are you hiding behind the intellect, for fear of exposing the "raw" you?
Cory
"Do nothing which is of no use." Miyamoto Musashi
This message has been edited by BlindJustice on Jan 3, 2007 7:24 AM
ICC mentioned that only BS have commented. I'm not sure what there is to be gained by a FWS commenting, but here I am.
I think a lot of what you say makes sense ICC. Over the years I've talked with many WS. And the common thread among them is to (at least at first anyway) place the blame on their spouse for the affair. I know I did that. I blamed my husband right off the bat and told him all the things he had done to lead me to an affair. I harped on that so long I actually had him believing it before I was finished. And for many years I left him out there dangling with the blame. All the while wondering why he couldn't just get over it and move on.
I'm not proud of those years. In fact if you want to talk about living with "personal demons" that's one of mine. I had as hard a time forgiving myself for doing that to him as I had forgiving myself of the affair. The interesting thing to me has always been that my husband forgave me of those things long before I was able to forgive myself. When the past rears it's ugly head (as it still occassionally does) that's what I beat myself up for, that I left him out there struggling in a place of "my" making.
We floundered around for many years. And I freely admit the blame for those lost years (as we call them) landed squarely on my shoulders. I avoided, blamed, and did anything I could to make sure my affair stayed right where I wanted it, in my head. I had many reasons for not sharing my thoughts with my husband. It's not necessary to list them, they all boiled down to one word....selfishness.
Our story could have ended there. We could have spent the remaining part of our marriage (whether that was til death or divorce) doing exactly what we did during those lost years, avoiding the issues that were eating away at both of us.
I don't know why I picked myself up off the floor one day and said.....that's it, things have got to change. And I don't know why I started the small steps that eventually helped me reach out to my husband. But "our" story changed that day. Not just because I decided to come clean with the details of my affair. It was a combination of things. My husband being willing to still meet me half way was the deciding factor. He let go of his fear and pride and decided to take one more chance on me.
What within him allowed him to do that? I honestly don't know. Did I deserve it? Not really. I'd not shown any real remorse up to that point for what I'd done to him. But as I said above, our story changed that day.
It's been almost 8 years since Dday for us. Do I consider myself one of the fortunate ones? You bet I do. It's no exaggeration when I say I thank the powers at be every day that this man beside me when I wake up is still here. He doesn't have to be. And I'm not so sure if the shoe had been on the other foot, if I would be. But that's our story. I realize not everyone makes it to the point we have and can honestly say....we made it and we're happy.
Is my husband bitter down deep inside? He hates that we have the "cloud" of an affair hanging over our marital history. I hate it also, but I recognize it's a different feeling than his, because I'm the one who made the choice to do it, not him. So we both live with different demons where that is concerned. Me that I made the choice, and him that he had no say in it. Is it something that we both think of every day? Not at all. And unless he's really good at hiding it, I don't believe there is bitterness lurking underneath him somewhere. Those who are around him can tell you he's a happy man, it's in his eyes. And I see that as well.
I believe you are probably right when you say statitistics bear out that most marriages aren't better years after an affair. I can believe that because I've seen what affairs have done to the marriages of a few of our friends. I wouldn't have said this 4 years ago, but at this point I think most couples would have been better off had they split up at Dday. Because (other than the folks I know on this site) most marriages after an affair reflect what you quoted above, years down the road neither partner is happy. So I think the statistics from all those sites and books are probably pretty accurate.
Is that because the WS wouldn't do the work? In a lot of cases I think that's it. But I also think in some cases the WS tries to do the work and the BS just won't/can't accept it. I think it's rare when both partners get on the same page and a marriage survives an affair and especially when years later both partners are truly happy. Which in my book says a lot for the ones who do make it work. But those statistics are neither her nor there when it comes down to what YOU choose to do with your marriage.
You've commented a few times in your posts about WS. You've made some blanket statements and that's peeved a few people, myself included. Not because I am a FWS. You can ask the folks around here behind the scenes....it takes a lot to get me fired up these days. I can look myself in the mirror every morning. And nothing you or anyone else can say can change that. But I do get peeved at what you say for all the WS out there who might have just found this site or the newbies who are already here. The ones who are trying to get to a place where they can look in the mirror.
You see, the ones who don't want to make amends don't come to sites such as this one. They stick their heads in the sand and most likely move on to the next affair. Or they avoid healing like I did and stonewall their spouse. The ones who come here really want help, just as I did. And just as you do by coming here. And just as it's not productive to coddle them and help them justify their affair, it's not productive to tell what scum of the earth they are.
Believe me, most of us already felt that way when we found this site. We didn't need anyone telling us that. We needed someone to tell us we didn't have to always feel that way about ourselves. And if you're one of those people who think we do deserve to always feel that way about ourselves, then I honestly feel sorry for you.
I have read your posts with interest. Not to pick them apart, but in an attempt to see where your anger is really coming from. Because it's not at all the WS out there. We didn't do you wrong or have anything to do with the fact that your wife did. So you really have no fight with us. Nor do you have the right to blame us for what your wife did. Or how your recovery is going since Dday. That's your story, and you and she have to own it.
You keep talking about lack of character in a betrayer. I'll tell you ICC, I really don't know what it is. Would I say I had no character and that's why I had an affair? At this point it's stopped mattering at my house what got me to that affair. What matters is that 8 years later I'm not that person anymore.
A long time ago on a forum such as this one I told a friend something. He was trying to analyze his way through affair recovery. He was driving us all crazy with his what ifs and whys. He was a thinker, much like you are, and much like my husband is. You can't think your way through this. At some point you have to set aside the analyzing. At some point you have to let emotion guide you. If the BS followed logic at the Dday, then to me logic says you walk away when someone betrays you. But emotion is what keeps you there trying to work it out. My husband finally had to see that as well in order for our marriage to move forward. He had to let go with his head and follow his heart.
ICC, you want answers that none of us can give you. Only you and your spouse can provide those answers. We can help you find your way to the right questions to ask, but we can't help you feel your way through to the answers.
I know this thread has gotten heated at points. And I'm really glad everyone has stuck with it thus far. Those are usually the threads that have the most "meat" in them and help folks the most.
But I'd like to ask you to please stop bashing the WS. Making blanket statements about us is bashing no matter how you try to spin it otherwise. That helps no one. We all have a right to come here and get support in an attempt to heal. Please recognize that you aren't the judge and jury for every WS out there.
I don't know what's going on in your house. I haven't been able to quite put my finger on what you feel like you aren't getting that you need. Maybe you could tell us that instead of making sweeping generalizations about other people's marriages?
Finally, if you do feel the need to get the anger out regarding WS and think it will help you, then please do it on another board such as Discovery or Further.
I hope you will continue to talk to us. We really are here to help.
GT
edited for typos
This message has been edited by gettingthere on Jan 3, 2007 11:11 AM This message has been edited by gettingthere on Jan 3, 2007 10:56 AM
GT, that is the most thought provoking post I've ever read. I'm not sure I'm even ready to respond to your questions, I'm thinking about it.
But, I really appreciate how you present things and how you point out your "light bulb" moment. I'm guessing this moment has been the truest of catalysts to the wellbeing of your relationship. What I really appreciate is how you willingly set your own pride aside to make a difference. This is a far bigger gesture than many seem to understand.
Give me some time to think about what I'm missing and I'll respond. I'm not sure I'm missing anything. I just think she doesn't feel the same level of responsibility you felt that day. If she did I doubt I would have the resentments I do. Nothing would please me more than to feel a responsibility toward me that transcends her own self. In essence that is exactly what you did. At your deepest risk you did what was right for the single purpose of doing what was right. That alone made you a totally different person. It is incredibly respect-worthy and almost instantly makes you trustworthy.
I also appreciate that you can incorporate your pre-light bulb time to really look at the statistics and see it is in the lack of proper closure that could likely develop those numbers. I really think this subject should be less about the relevance of the numbers and more about the resolution.
My purpose was to identify this resentment and to corrolate it to the statistics. Yet the argument that it even exists still rages. Then I was hoping that someone like yourself could step forward and describe how you avoided, derailed or circumvented those conditions from perpetuating within your relationship. You have proven that you did indeed have the power to take away the resentments that are created from betrayal.
No amount of anger from other BS's or indignance from WS's would convince me otherwise. What you have really said is that you did indeed accepted this (responsibility to resolve) as your charge and you took it upon yourself to "make good". If this can be agreed upon (which seems improbable), then the question can progress to how? I also believe that these reactions are really revealing and they are very disappointing for me. Many BS's rationalize that by "being bigger" they can control and affect their own "healing". This may well be true, but, I think it becomes an acceptence of the lesser of another human being, not an actual reconciliation. It is an acceptance of inequality and inequity. You have accomplished this in such a dignified manner that there is no way that your BS could look at you in any other way than in amazement. I've never seen anyone take it to such a high level as you have. I am profoundly envious.
Give me some time to contemplate. Impressive, really impressive!
This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 3, 2007 12:18 PM
You know, I think we've got a nomenclature misunderstanding.
And it's not surprising. Many people, including me, approached this site seeking repair of their marriages. But I have healed without repairing my marriage, and I am pretty sure I don't carry IIC's little angry demon around with me. That is an outcome I would not have contemplated four years ago (healing, and setting free the little angry demon) because my focus was entirely on "the marriage".
Perhaps what I'm talking about is only possible after letting go of a long-term marriage, after deciding NOT to fight and argue any more. So where does that healing come from? From my perception that my wife (and our relationship) weren't changing, or from my knowledge that I had to? In either case, it wasn't from her.
I will never leave her, never! So I am interested in getting rid of the demon in the face of being reminded every day, or every year, of it. If you lived with a stranger that raped you how would you feel? Would time matter? How would you heal yourself?
Is she worthy of every effort I can make to extricate the demon? To me, more than you'll ever know. If I can't would I stay? Until the end of time, I would. I just don't accept being one of the 78% and even if it means compromising myself forever I would try to convey to her that I need her to do this. Still, it would mean the most to me without my involvement.
I think it really is about perspective. There is the vast majority that believe that a relationship is a union of two individuals. Separate lives, separate souls, separate! I believe it can be different. It really is a discussion of depth. I think GT really has it. She knew this wall, this impediment, existed in their potential. She felt it required resolution if they were to achieve an equally fullfilling, equally entwined, and really - an equal relationship. Maybe even more? Is it about what is possible?
I'm going to try this moral issue again. Hopefully, without offending. If you are a BS and you don't believe it was your WS's moral ineptitude that allowed this and/or a character flaw, why would you stay? This premise allows us BS's to see a change. Call it growth, call it maturity. In the absence of percieved change why would you not think it could all happen again? Would there ever be reason to trust again? In the absence of such thinking why would you want to be with someone like this?
So, I think you could not be more on the money Chris!
I am sorry to have had offended anyone. Still, the questions persist.
IIC- This is something that correlates with what Cory's mom said about Christ being the only perfect person:
it is the verse, "There but for the grace of God go I."
For many of us, if our life experiences would have been different, we just MIGHT have chosen the same path as a WS. I know that is a hard concept to imagine, but ya never know. That is why I can't "condemn" a FWS. In fact, my heart goes out to them to think of how they hurt. Self-betrayal can be devastating. A BS, has the option of leaving, but a WS has to live with themselves for the rest of their life. Betrayal, no matter if one is betrayed, or the betrayer, can kill one's soul. But there is hope, because once a person looks inside and recognizes their potential to inflict pain, (which humans are good at) then we have some awareness and can make a choice to live life being kinder, and more loving.
""Is she worthy of every effort I can make to extricate the demon? To me, more than you'll ever know. If I can't would I stay? Until the end of time, I would. I just don't accept being one of the 78% and even if it means compromising myself forever I would try to convey to her that I need her to do this""
Then tell her or you will never get what you want. Your quote below says it all and you know what? I laid in bed last night crying because my wife didn't know what I was upset about. Why didn't she know? Because I wouldn't tell her.
""Still, it would mean the most to me without my involvement.""
I have been so angry with my wife because she doesn't read my mind either. If you don't tell them what you need, you will never get it, basic communication. If your wife doesn't know you need this, why in the hell would she want to bring up the A to you again?
I've read in several caregiving resources that the rate of divorce in couples afflicted with chronic illness is 80%. Maybe they are all quoting the same study and maybe it's valid or not. I was thinking, though, that 50% of all marriages in general fail within a few years. This means that it is from this pool of 50% that do survive where the marriages that suffer chronic illness occur. So starting with 10000 marriages 5000 don't even make to the thresh hold of chronic illness. Of the 5000 marriages that last long enough how many experience disabling chronic illness? A few percent? Of those only 20% yield long-term well partners.
How many affairs has occurred because a spouse has a long time illness or disability? How does all this equate in the divorce rate?
IIC, you said, "I'm going to try this moral issue again. Hopefully, without offending. If you are a BS and you don't believe it was your WS's moral ineptitude that allowed this and/or a character flaw, why would you stay?"
MM already took care of the answer I would have written to this, but it also sparked another thought that you may want to chew on. This is a brutal question, but don't respond until you read the rest....
IIC, what right do you have to demand the same levels of morality and ethics that you yourself have?
I'm asking you this, because it was something I struggled with as well. You see, given my background, words like honesty, discipline, integrity and respect have been drilled into me for 30 years. They're not words, they're a way of life. I'm sure you can see why I would have the same mindset you do, but I'll bet mine was ramped up even more early on...
I asked that question, because one of my wise and dear friends from these here boards asked it of me. When I sat and really thought about that question, the answer I came to was, "I DON'T have that right". Slavery was abolished in the 1860's, and we don't own our spouses. They are who they are, end of story. If they change, it will be because they WANT to.
So once that question got answered, the next question was, "Can I stay with her, knowing that her levels of morality and ethics didn't measure up to my expectations?"
That answer was yes, which brings us 'round full circle to Mom's comment.
And please, don't try to turn this one into a debate. Those questions are for you to answer, to you. I could really care less if you told me what your answers are. What I DO hope is that something of what I and others have said here actually sinks in.
The combination of these statistics and that moral question raise another potentially prickly issue.
If you do the math, it seems that at least a few of the BSs on this site would have to also be USs at some point in their relationships. I haven't hung around here for very long, but as far as I can tell most of the BSs take a pretty firm stand as innocent victims who are "better" than their USs -- at least at first. Maybe that's necessary for the healing process.
Still, I know two of the regulars here well enough to know they themselves have been secret cheaters for some time now. I don't think I am judging them. As Cory rightly points out, I have no right to.
But I do think it's interesting how these two characters continue to sit on pretty high horses, doling out advice to other BSs, all the while commiting the very same "immoral" offense.
And of course, an A is not the only immoral act a spouse can commit. For example: when a wandering spouse cheats on an abusive spouse, who is the "good guy?" It happens.
The moral high ground is a thorny piece of territory, with a very slippery slope. I should probably stay down here with the rest of the human beings.
"MM already took care of the answer I would have written to this, but it also sparked another thought that you may want to chew on. This is a brutal question, but don't respond until you read the rest....
IIC, what right do you have to demand the same levels of morality and ethics that you yourself have?"
OK, Cory I'll try, I'm chewing!
This is a bit confusing for me because, on a professional level, I not only expect it from my colleages I demand it. From my friends? Well, I've chosen not to associate with a number of friends throughout the years because of moral or ethical reasons. Is this "demanding" or is it choosing your associations based upon similar values? I sincerely believe so.
I also believe that much of what makes successful relationships successful are precisely those similarities. Isn't it those most rudimentary life values that form, for most, the basis of having much "in common"?
If this makes sense then how can you not expect your spouse to be of similar character and of similar moral make up? Doesn't all of this come together to form a "safe" environment for all of us in a relationship? Are you suggesting that expecting these as parameters, or conditions if you will, are unreasonable of any and all that are in a marriage?
Aren't you really meaning to say that, in your opinion, my judgement is unfairly harsh? Or that I am lacking compassion or accpetance of her humanity? Or that I see the world in far too black and white of a manner? Or that my expectations are too rigid?
IIC said:
"I also believe that much of what makes successful relationships successful are precisely those similarities. Isn't it those most rudimentary life values that form, for most, the basis of having much "in common"?
If this makes sense then how can you not expect your spouse to be of similar character and of similar moral make up? Doesn't all of this come together to form a "safe" environment for all of us in a relationship? Are you suggesting that expecting these as parameters, or conditions if you will, are unreasonable of any and all that are in a marriage?"
Okay, you believe that, but I'm also 100% certain that you've been wrong about people other than your W. You THOUGHT they met your standards until they proved otherwise. Obviously, you thought your W met your standards, as you described in your last post, meeting all your parameters, etc. Now you've discovered, by your own definitions of right, wrong, morality, ethics, everything you've said here, that you were flat out wrong about her.
So, what will you DO about it, knowing the truth? It's your choice, not hers. Let's say you choose to stay, and continue to write here about her lack of morals, your bitterness, etc. Whose fault is it at that point that you're not happy? Who made the choice to stay? Who has the REAL power to get rid of that bitterness, that self righteousness?
This is just one example of what I mean when I say that you get to a point where it really isn't about the affair anymore.
You also said:
"Aren't you really meaning to say that, in your opinion, my judgement is unfairly harsh? Or that I am lacking compassion or accpetance of her humanity? Or that I see the world in far too black and white of a manner? Or that my expectations are too rigid?"
Nope, I haven't made any judgements whatsoever, and I'm not going to on this. I related MY experiences with those questions, what MY answers were, and MY opinions on why I answered them in the way I did. What I'm trying to do, and what others are trying to do here, is ask you questions and make observations to help you work through this on your own. I don't have the answers to those questions you just wrote, only you do. Even if I DID have answers/opinions to those questions, it really wouldn't matter. Why? Because I'm not YOU, I'm not in YOUR position, and only YOU can answer those questions for YOU.
For example, and JUST an example, if I said, "IIC, I think you're being way too judgemental here. You should get off your high horse", you would have a few choices. First, you could read those words and think, "He's full of shit, he doesn't know me". You could also think, "Hey, he's right!". Or, you could end up firing back in defense and starting an argument that has no end.
The bottom line is, NONE of those choices would aid in your healing.... As I've already stated, only YOU can answer those questions for YOU.
Who's to say a person cannot have been a moral and ethical person and, for some reason or reasons, have lost his or her way. One of the things I admired about my H pre-affair were his morals and ethics. Sadly, I never actually told him that. Who knows, if I had, maybe he would have thought a little harder before making the bad decisions he made. However, even though he made those decisions and compromised those values during that time, it doesn't make him a bad person, nor in my opinion, does it mean he is now lacking morals or ethics. My H has been remourseful from the very beginning. He has been doing everything in his power to make things right again. He hates what he did and hates himself for doing it. That doesn't sound to me like an immoral, corrupt person. Just the opposite. It's because he still believes in all those things that he feels as badly as he does.
I'm feeling like this discussion is out of control and I'm back peddling for what I thought I already addressed. So, I'll say it again;
I do not believe that my wife is a bad person, unethical or immoral. In fact, I believe she is of the most sincere and caring people I have ever know. She remains the most respected person in my life.
I am really very much in Angela's camp on this one. I've tried to express that I believe it is a temporary condition that should not define someone and it surely does not. Not for the WS's here or for my wife. What I am suggesting is that during this period one must shed their morals and life values to move the process forward. I believe it is the essence of compartmentalization.
For the BS, at least for me, it really helps to understand that it is in that temporary loss that caused the possibility of betrayal. Once those values are restored and acknowldeged, by the WS's behavior, confidence and trust can be reclaimed. So, in my mind without TRUE remorse, which is based on repentance, a relationship is left hanging with unfinished business. What does that mean?
Well, to me it means a number of things (which GT addressed in a very eloquent manner);
A: Total honesty and complete disclosure. A BS needs this in order to have at least some beginning point to regain trust. Without, there is no need to move forward.
B: Pro-active behavior. Any WS that thinks sweeping it under the rug or dolling out facts in dribbles is only damaging a healing potential. I waited and waited for the truth. I was quite sure I wasn't getting it. The amount of resentment that accumulates is in direct proportion to the time it takes for the truth to be freely revealed. Not only is this an issue of respect it encompasses the understanding of the allowance of a victim's dignity. This means revealing and addressing what is not solicited. The effort should be viewed as a sincere attempt to deal with a problem with finality and to allow both parties to move forward. I was lied to for decades and I knew it. Again, this type of behavior propogates and verifies the stat of 78%
C: The "extra" effort. This is a cloudy issue to me. What does it take to make a BS accpeting and feel that it is their choice to work for the relationship. GT does an amazing job of decribing the destructive process that proceeded, in her case, the action she took to make her BS, her, and their relationship whole. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been for her. Her efforts made him want her and her ideas and her ideals more than anything. I think everyone here should acknowledge her for her extrodinary efforts. I think it should be an example to all WS's as "what to do" to reclaim a relationship.
D: The BS's responsibility. Again, a somewhat cloudy issue. In my case she was adorned with attention to the point that she felt protected. That nothing she could do would destroy my love for her. Many of these relationships are exactly the opposite. These people (WS's) are taken advantage of, taken for granted, and feel they are either not loved or have grown to accept that a number of their needs will never be ackowledged nor satisfied. So, for many BS's I think they need to own their own shit as well. This was not our case, she was the center of my world and she knew it.
E: Acceptance; I think for a BS this can be among the toughest issues. I know it is for me. I do not know how to be more attentive than I was. I just simply was not good enough. Still, I find I am ok in that her choice and subsequent behavior means that she willingly accepted that I was indeed her greatest supporter.
Which brings us to the final and last vestiges of what remains. My point has always been a WS's understanding of their responsibility with, what I believe, is the final and most critical part of this process; Extrication! I believe there is a vast majority of WS's that just wait hoping that the little resentment that remains, that they feel, will just go away. Time will heal, right? Without being proactive I believe that every WS can expect to be a part of the 78% statistic. Or, there is a different way, I think GT did an astounding job in her relationship to be proactive to extricate whatever unspoken demons that could remain. Hence, happy and not part of the 78%
OK, now we address what you are suggesting Cory; the power of self. You are really very, very right! I went decades with this attitude. But, I feel I can say with some degree of confidence, that one unfinished business WILL rear it's ugly head. I was the master of Tom Hopkins, Tony Robbins, Zig Zigler. Yet like many men at my age (Andropause - look it up) we stop. The assets don't mean so much anymore. The kids are all but gone. The career is all but a pain in the ass now. Your priorities change. Usually for the better. One thing is for sure you re-evaluate your love life and assess it's meaning in your life. Many men go out and have affairs. Hardly acceptable to me, so I ponder. Cory, you are not there yet so you can comment when that time comes for you.
There is this one thing, unfinished, that stands between she and I. I don't want anyone else. I just want the truth and, for once in decades, I want a truly repentant effort. Because, now, without it, I really would prefer to be alone. I tried to get all the answers then. She couldn't, she would just crumble and all but run away from me.
We have never been estranged. We have always been proud of our commitment we have to each other. She has stood by me in my darkest hours and I for her. We have endured teenagers and have survived (probably the biggest hurdle ). So, we enter the final Autumn of life and I want more than a mere existence. I want it resolved. I don't want what you usually see, two old people scarred and battered from their life together merely getting to the end. So, I am making her accountable and I accountable as well. I think I may have finally gotten most (all?) of the truth close to a year ago but it is hard to trust your senses when it has been decades that you've been lied to.
So, I am well aware of "personal power", Now, I don't want it. I want the real thing.
If I've offended you or anyone else I am sorry but I came to this given thread to talk about it's validity and why I sincerely believe in it. I am not seeking assurance or new light but I emplore every single WS out there to do what GT has done. If you don't you could likely end up one of the 78%. I really believe it is unfortunate and very much unnecessary.
You don't have to like me or agree with me but the statistics do indeed mean something. I think the lesson is in how you make sure you're a couple that lands in the 22% and ignorance or phony resolution will do nothing but push you and your, so called, beloved into a 78 percentile that no one wants to be a part of.
I wish for you all very, very good 2007!
IIC
In closing I'm going to leave you with a piece I wrote for my wife about two months ago. Shortly after my Father died. If you think you know just how commited I am, maybe you should read it:
Until the End of Time
I am merely a whisper; a wish, a thought. I am no more than a hope. It was you
that gave the whisper a voice. It was you that gifted my spirit.
Let my life be judged. Let it be judged by the depth of my passion; Of my deepest affections; Of my greatest commitment; Of the clarity of my conviction; Of my strongest devotions; Of the depth of my love; Of the great joy of our sharing; Of the humility of receiving.
For without you there would be no voice. I would be adrift without your love; without your care; without your passion; without your will. So it is my soul that I lovingly commit to you. It is the greatest of gifts that I can offer. For without my soul I am nary a whisper. It is all that I am.
For it is through our sharing that I have the strength to carry on. It is through
your strength that I can be all that I have been given. It is through this gift that
I am whole and at peace.
Take my hand, walk with me. Walk with me through this life of promise; through this life of sorrow; through this life of joy; through the unknown, together. It is the joy of our
sharing that makes the journey so special.
Take my spirit, my life, for it is a gift for you alone. It is a gift for eternity. I commit all that I am to you. It is through the bond of our commitment that our souls shall be forever entwined, forever as one, until the end of time.
This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 4, 2007 1:27 PM This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 4, 2007 1:21 PM This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 4, 2007 1:15 PM This message has been edited by IfICould on Jan 4, 2007 1:06 PM
Ok, so what (I think) I am reading from your post is that you're not sure you have full disclosure from your wife? You don't feel you have all the details of her affair and that's keeping you from entering into the Autumn years of your life being totally happy? Am I reading that right?
I have to admit ICC, you have me somewhat confused as to what you are really here for. It sounds like you both respect and resent your wife at the same time.
GT
This message has been edited by gettingthere on Jan 4, 2007 2:58 PM
"Ok, so what (I think) I am reading from your post is that you're not sure you have full disclosure from your wife? You don't feel you have all the details of her affair and that's keeping you from entering into the Autumn years of your life being totally happy? Am I reading that right?
I have to admit ICC, you have me somewhat confused as to what you are really here for. It sounds like you both respect and resent your wife at the same time."
Um, yes! and yes!
I guess I only entered into the discussion to make comment about the stats. It somehow turned into a discussion about me. I wasn't at all looking for that. You guys have this way of burrowing into people. Whether acknowledged or not you want to know what it is that makes them tick, what axe they have to grind. So, it became about me and what I'm not getting as a BS or what she is not giving as a WS. I was dumb enough to entertain that.
My only purpose was to agree with the stats and to present why I did. I guess that likely revealed too much so the question rainstorm began.
As for me I would really like to know how to move beyond resentment. You mentioned a few things that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I said I would respond when I'm ready but I'm not quite sure exactly when that will be.
You are right to point out the dichotomy. It does indeed exist for me and it is somewhat torturing. It produces terrible guilt especially in view of the fact I see my wife as such an incredibly beautiful person.
At this point I would ask that this discussion end. I promise that when I feel sure of how to ask, I will indeed ask for help. I sure hope you'll be part of that discussion GT.
""As for me I would really like to know how to move beyond resentment""
That's between you and your demon. Good luck with it. I feel I will have that same fight for the rest of my life. But I choose to fight this fight, just as you do.
Sorry, only moderators and administrators can officially end a conversation, and I'm not done yet...
You said:
"Cory, you are not there yet so you can comment when that time comes for you."
I'm not quite sure what you meant by this. If you're talking Andropause (looked it up ), then you're correct. If you were talking about the twilight of your career, I have you beat by quite a few years. My "real" career ended about 15 years ago. I used to do production analysis, was an OSHA certified forklift safety instructor, trained line balancing, time study, design & implementation of inventory control systems, and did some consulting work on JIT manufacturing (look it up ). One night while driving a forklift, I came around a corner and almost ran over a guy. I never saw him, and I missed him literally by a few inches. He laughed, thinking I'd done it on purpose to scare him. I was petrified. In the back of my mind, I knew the truth. I went to see an ophthalmologist who confirmed it. My range of vision was at 7 degrees, out of a possible 180. He said that not only was I legally blind, I'd most like been that way for about 5 years. End of career.
In a very strange way, I believe this experience "trained" me for dealing with the affair. I spoke before about things happening that are out of your control, and this is what I was talking about. I had to deal with the denial, the anger, depression, etc. I also had to learn to accept that this happened, that it was a part of my life whether I liked it or not, and there was simply nothing I could do to change that fact. Sound familiar?
And yes, I dealt with resentment too. I felt almost as much resentment for this damn disease that I felt when my W had her affair. My career WAS a my life. I'd done it for years, and absolutely loved what I was doing. Only a small percentage of people can really say that, when you think about it. Having that taken away from me was almost unbearable. It's VERY tough to explain to someone who has never gone through it, living with the knowledge that hour by hour, day by day, I'm losing more and more of that precious gift of sight. However, on the flip side, it's made me appreciate the things I DO have much more. More than the affair, going blind has taught me about REAL priorities....
You also said:
"So, I am well aware of "personal power", Now, I don't want it. I want the real thing."
I think you may have missed my point a bit. I wasn't speaking about "personal power" or whatever new age tag is being used as the latest catch phrase. I'm more old school...
I was speaking about self awarenes, that ability to look into yourself, to find the REAL answers to the questions hidden in you, to get to know the REAL you. Combine that with mental toughness, that stubborness (for lack of a better term) to be unswerving in your dedication to completing a task, and you've got a strong package. I had to learn to focus, REALLY focus, on what I was doing, as it's not easy to snap a 2x4 with your feet, or smash your head through 4 inches of wood. Without knowledge of ME, and without that mental toughness, the task would be impossible. Like many other things in martial arts, it's a paradox: You have to concentrate extremely hard so your mind will go blank. At the same time, the training will kick in (knowledge of self) and complete your task.
Couple of quotes for you, that I've always loved:
"If you can't change the way you look at things, the things you look at will never change"
"Some things in life are problems; Most are inconveniences. Knowing the difference is wisdom"
"Sorry, only moderators and administrators can officially end a conversation, and I'm not done yet... "
I can see that
"I was speaking about self awarenes, that ability to look into yourself, to find the REAL answers to the questions hidden in you, to get to know the REAL you."
I'm aware that self awareness is the top of the triangle. It is the pinnacle of spiritual growth. I agree with you. But I also think it includes honestly assessing your shortcomings and addressing them. I spent many years powering myself through the pain of the unfinished business of infidelity. Quite similar to what GT describes for her and her husband. I always thought it was my problem. "What the hell is wrong with me? "Why am I having difficulty with this?" It took me a very long time to understand that it was ok to be having a problem with it and that I had to find a way to address it.
We started this process a year ago. God, it was like starting from scratch again. It was like it had just happened. It was all new and raw, AGAIN! I feel we've done all we can to get everything on the table and we continue to work on us. My wife tried immediately to run and hide. But, then she started to learn. She made a complete 180 in the span of one night. She really has been amazing.
If you haven't noticed I have an impatient streak (is there a "sheepish" symbol?). We are at the point where time has to help heal. This one I am definitely not very good at, but, I keep working at it. I feel our relationship is far richer now than ever. Still I am faced with the last issue - resentment. I want to learn, not to control it, but to release it. At this time I owe my wife all of my effort in this regard.
Couple of quotes for you, that I've always loved:
"If you can't change the way you look at things, the things you look at will never change"
"Some things in life are problems; Most are inconveniences. Knowing the difference is wisdom"
And my favorite,
"Sight and vision are not the same"
I like these quotes very much. I think quotes like these help us work through our frailties. I still believe, one day, we will all be called to address what has been buried inside. We keep them nicely tucked away with motivational quotes, scripture and the like but the day will come for all of us that we will indeed face our biggest demon - probably our biggest fear. I really think that is my calling now. It's time to remove the one thing that stands between me and the peaceful and totally connected life with my lovely wife that I've always dreamt of.
BTW, I've had one operating eye my whole life. I've had numerous surgeries to no avail. For me it's all I've ever known so I don't even see it as an impediment.
From my own experience, it was indeed "fear" that stood in the way of living a happier and more full life.
The only way to conquer the fear was to face the new life squarely and start moving through it...knowing that the only person I could hold responsible for what happened was ME.
No one else owes me anything, ever again. If I owe a friend, I honor that debt because it is self-imposed. If a friend owes me, it's up to him or her. Making someone else pay is beneath me; no one likes to be reminded of a debt of any kind.
When I seperated and in order to keep my house I grudgingly accepted my parents help and they took out a line of credit in their name which I was to pay each month. I pay more than the required balance each and every month and haven't missed a payment - I still occasionally get reminded about the debt or asked if I could afford those shoes, that xxwhateverxx. I am soooo looking forward to selling my house and paying that debt in full. It really irks me that even though you do everything to make sure you pay the debt, it is never good enough.
IIC, you said:
"But I also think it includes honestly assessing your shortcomings and addressing them."
Absolutely. I know what my shortcomings are/have been. I'm happy to say that many of them have been dealt with, but sad to say that others still need addressing... I guess that's what they mean by being human...
And this:
"If you haven't noticed I have an impatient streak"
If I listed the many things I learned in affair recovery, I think "Patience" would be near the top... LOL
And this:
"I like these quotes very much. I think quotes like these help us work through our frailties."
For me, it not only helped in the way you described, I've taken that extra step and literally assmilated them into my life. For example, I don't view my blindness as a problem. If going blind is only an inconvenience, there's not much that can be a REAL problem in my life. Flexibility, both physically and mentally, is a big key to being successful in the world of martial arts (some of the people here have literally seen me doing the splits while suspended between chairs), which is why the quote about being able to change the way you look at things means so much. It's one thing to quote them as platitudes, another to make them part of you.
And lastly:
"the day will come for all of us that we will indeed face our biggest demon - probably our biggest fear."
Two points. First, to play amatuer psychologist for a moment, I've always felt that fear is the biggest motivator in our existence. HOW you use it to motivate you is the key in this line of thinking. The first step, obviously, is to not be afraid to face those fears...
Second, you know, I USED to be absolutely in terror of going blind. I'm still fearful, don't get me wrong, but that fear has been tempered, thankfully, by good friends who share this eye condition, older gentlemen who have already travelled the path I'm on. I belong to an email support group for people affected by this disease. One day, one of our "elder statesmen" posted an email about the day he lost his sight. One part of it resonates in me to this day. He said, "After an hour or so of ranting and raving, I suddenly noticed that it wasn't that bad. I realized then that the anticipation of going blind was worse than the event itself". Every time I start feeling that fear creep in, I remember those words and am comforted.
To me, that's what acceptance is all about... I believe there's a level BEYOND acceptance. I've never been able to find the right word or words to describe it, other than to say that I embrace my life as it is... I love my life.
Edited to add: One thing I love about the boards is how threads evolve, shift and grow...
Cory
"Do nothing which is of no use." Miyamoto Musashi
This message has been edited by BlindJustice on Jan 5, 2007 7:25 AM
I think the letting go process you described holds true for all of us whether we are BS or WS. Even after years of healing it was hard for both my husband and I to let go of that marital bliss dream.
You see, both of us (not just him) pictured us making it to old age with a marital history just like they put in the movies and books. Neither of us imagined we'd get there with this thing called betrayal listed in the pages of our story.
For a very long time that black cloud followed us around wherever we went. Didn't matter how happy we were, one of us would wake up one day and think......well, there's an affair in our history. So that makes our marriage less than stellar. Then the funk would be on for a few days. Sometimes we'd re-hash at that point or sometimes we'd just be sullen.
A few years back my husband told me the very thing you wrote above. He resented the fact that I'd brought an affair into his life. I don't blame him. I understand that resentment. I'd be resentful too.
One day that cloud lifted though for both of us and it no longer defined our marriage. Both of us agree that we hung on to so many things because in letting them go we felt vulnerable.
I believe that could be going on with you ICC. You aren't ready to be vulnerable again so you can't totally let go. That's my armchair analysis.
I'm thinking alot about all of your comments. Really, many very thoughtful and insightful.
I think we're at that point in the discussion where my answers to your questions or proposed introspections are; I don't know. I'm sorry.
I can say this GT, I will never give up on that dream of a blissful marriage. I feel we are so close now. The money is now there, the time to give each other is now there, and the most important is the need to reach for each other. We both want desparately to find common ground and unconditional acceptance. Our intimate life is as it never has been, so rewarding.
It's not easy to keep working to recreate common interests after so many years of feeding the withdrawal. Going to a movie together seems hard to arrange. Bowling, such a simple thing we used to do in our late teens, we're once again trying to get back into. Going out for a night with friends once in awhile also seems to require much effort. Much of this is an outcome of scarifice for the benefit of the family as well as a, so called, commitment to our kids.
Still, it all has a feel of the intitial courtship that created our relationship in the first place. It's fun.
I wonder if it would be beneficial for everyone to start a thread maybe called "reclamation". And, for differnt people to comment on how they're regaining/rebuilding their relationships for the single interest we had in the beginning - an interest in one.
I think these types of sites can easily lose their way. That is not for the benefit of reconciliation but possibly more for the justification of a given behavior or a position. It seems to be a drive for affirmation or some level of agreement to keep us entrenched rather than an encouragement to seek a new level of intimate entwinement.
Not all marriages can be saved. Some relationships are too damaged.
BS take some time to realize that the WS isn't responsible for all the bad in their lives or relationships. And vice versa. IMO, relationship repair can't happen until both people own (face up and admit to) their own "stuff". Some people do get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and begin making positive changes. Others cling to being "right" on the same old issues, thinking that they will eventually "win" the fight.
You seem to see that there are positive changes possible in your own actions. Perhaps your demon will see you enjoying yourself and leave of his own accord.
This hits home. I don't want to win the fight but lose the war. I'm trying to take some proactive and positive steps myself, yet I continue to hold on to the resentments. Do I have to lose myself to win the war? Because I am who I am, the hurt and resentment cuts deep. I've always been emotional, I've always been sensitive. Do I have to become someone different now for us to make it through this together? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
It's a hard thing to explain. I didn't HAVE to become someone else, although I did. Growth brings change.
The clock ticking away (our old friend TIME) didn't do it for me.
I started with a question our joint counselor asked me a long time ago: Why is Chris so angry?
Of course, the simple answer for why I'd be angry and resentful is that my wife cheated on me. (Never discount the simple answer.) But that question was first asked of me before the affair; I was already angry.
I asked myself several different variations:
What does my wife get from doing things that feed my anger?
What do I get from remaining angry?
But that was a dead end too. I was trying to think or to reason my way through an emotional crisis. I was playing to my strength (thinking) and ignoring my weakness (feeling). For several years I held on to my resentment and anger like a security blanket. She OWED me, and that was that. Most of the things I tried without guidance didn't work too well. I held on dearly to my pride and need to be RIGHT (and righteous).
The right question is the one I asked after learning that anger isn't a primary emotion. Anger is about something, and that's usually a hurt or a fear. Or both. (Thank you, Dr. Harriet Lerner.)
So I finally realized I was hurt and afraid. (Remember...processing emotions was never my strong suit.)
A good friend and a counselor both helped me with some important advice at that point, and I had to work out for myself two things: what it meant to go THROUGH my feelings instead of avoiding them and pushing them into a little box, and accepting that my then-wife had the same free will that I did. She didn't "owe" me a solution to my hurts and fears (or anything else for that matter).
To straighten myself out, I had to allow myself to be hurt and afraid for a while to see how I could live through it instead of playing the brave martyr. I finally let go of my anger and resentment instead of holding it close, but by the time I did it was too late to save our marriage. Fighting for my marriage killed it; no one wants to deal with a self-righteous spouse who can call up anger and resentment and suspicion on demand.
In the cold hard light of day, I suppose that letting go can be seen as letting your WS off the hook. But it is the only way to get past being wronged. In a recovering marriage, I think IIC and GT have explained a way to do that a little at a time until the thoughts and feelings fade.
You mentioned working "through" your feelings. Though I have heard that many times before, this time it took on a different meaning for me. One that might be very helpful if I can do it. I thought until now that it just meant that one has to recognize the feelings of anger and the hurt behind it. I've done that, I've recognized them and recognized why things hurt me so badly. But...now I see it a little differently. I need to replace just "experiencing" it with actually "acting" on it.
As an example, I feel ugly, whether I really am or not is irrelevent, and the OW was beautiful, or H thought she was and told her so. That hurts. I've been hurting over that from the beginning so I've not swept it under the rug, I've experienced it, yet, I still hurt over it. Acting on it might be a more positive way to deal with it. What can I do to make myself better physically? Losing weight is the most obvious thing and I have been working on that, excercise, and the most important thing, like myself and be proud again of who I am. Before the affairs I knew I was far from perfect yet I still felt good about myself as opposed to hating myself now. So, now I need to stop telling myself I'm ugly, (not easy), change what I can, and start looking at what I like about myself.
So now when I get those angry and hurt feelings again, I will look a little deeper and see what I can do to actually turn them around and make something positive come out of them if I can.
Chris said: Angela, the process of building wisdom and acting on it isn't done alone. You know who they are; I thank them from both of us.
Just want to say that I do appreciate the help and support I've received from everyone to help get me to this point. Thank you all! But I still have a ways to go so don't write me off just yet, please. LOL.
Angela, I am reminded daily that there is always someone wiser and more experienced from whom I can learn something.
The trick is being open to the lessons. Those who come here open to wisdom and honestly and sincerely seeking help often find it. Sometimes it takes a while to sort things out; don't be hard on yourself for that. I certainly haven't got much room to criticize.
<<The trick is being open to the lessons. Those who come here open to wisdom and honestly and sincerely seeking help often find it. Sometimes it takes a while to sort things out; don't be hard on yourself for that.>>
Very true Chris, very true
It took me awhile to sort things out. And just when I think Im done sorting, I am presented with more things to sort through...and always something more to learn from someone wiser
