I just emailed my brother earlier today and filled him in on what was going on. I've always considered his advice -- he's a lawyer himself (patent attorney).
Here's his email back to me:
Whoa. Your message concerns me. You say you want “the truth to come out,” but what are the consequences to XXXX (and his children) by playing this out in a criminal proceeding?
Couldn’t you make your own decision [regarding the visitation, I think] based on what YOU know without relying on what someone else says in court?
I can’t imagine that a detective would ask you to testify against him, or on what basis would you think it is appropriate to testify against a former spouse. That seems very unusual. Let me know if you want to talk this through.
Sooo.....aughghghghhh. I'm feeling guilty, I'm feeling confused, I"m feeling I may be doing a dumb thing if I jeopardize his job and the benefits for the kids.
Damn. I know y'all might think I'm thick, but there is a lot at stake, here. I'm not doing this for revenge, but, it's true, a part of me is eager to see him get caught -- it would be a validation for my gut feelings that I've had about this guy for years.
My first thought after seeing his e-mail is, Were your brother and your ex close when you were together? Could he be letting his personal feelings interfere with his rationality? I'm not saying he is. My thoughts are just that you may not have the right to interfere with his visitation of the kids if you can't prove anything and if you have valid concerns about what he is doing, then I certainly wouldn't feel guilty about anything when it comes to your kids and their emotional health.
<<My thoughts are just that you may not have the right to interfere with his visitation of the kids if you can't prove anything and if you have valid concerns about what he is doing, then I certainly wouldn't feel guilty about anything when it comes to your kids and their emotional health.>> I'm not sure what you're saying, Charlie.
It seems my brother may be making the point that I should just press for supervised visitation apart from any charge or conviction. I didn't think I could do that -- without this type of conviction -- and it seems that the prosecution may very well not get a conviction unless I testify.
and it seems that the prosecution may very well not get a conviction unless I testify.
Jean- What are you going to testify about? That your X was into porn and had an A. It seems to me the defense would say that info is irrelevent. Your X is there for charges concerning going into the women's bathroom. And you probably never saw him do that. Zillions of men are into porn and have had an A, and they don't go into women's bathrooms. So how can a connection be made? Do you get what I'm saying here?
I think the prosecution is grasping at straws by wanting to use you as a witness. Yeah, from everything you say about your X, I can make the connection that he has some sexual issues, but legalistic mumbo jumbo that masks itself as logic usually wins.
I'm kind of glad we rely on "legalistic mumbo jumbo" instead of people's feelings (and opinions, no matter how well argued) when we decide whether they go to jail, get executed, or pay a judgement in a civil tort case.
Witnesses, documentation, proof to a high standard, all those "minor details"...I think those are necessary things before we allow a judge to deprive someone of life, liberty, or property.
I am glad it's necessary to air both sides of a story thoroughly in a courtroom, and I think justice is not well served by pursuing a vendetta. An accusation isn't "the truth" until it's proven. And if it's not proven, it might very well be slander...which is also actionable.
I agree that Jean's testimony is probably irrelevant unless she saw him in a women's restroom at some time. It probably wouldn't help the case but it might hurt her kids.
Chris.
This message has been edited by chris924 on Mar 23, 2007 10:13 PM
<What are you going to testify about? That your X was into porn and had an A. It seems to me the defense would say that info is irrelevent.> My testimony as a witness would have as much relevence as the other character witnesses that the defense calls -- and they didn't see him in/out of the women's restroom either.
I would only be called as a rebuttal witness if the defense calls its character witnesses again. If that doesn't happen, then I can't be called by the prosecution -- i.e., the prosecution cannot call character witnesses unless the defense does.
Chris -- I'm not sure what you mean by your post. Do you think that I am persuing a vendetta? I am not the one who brought these two charges up against him.
Jean
P.S. MM, What I forgot to mention is that, if I testified as a character witness, I would probably testify about my concern for his sexual addiction that I witnessed. That's the whole crux of the issue for me -- if he has progressed to the point of acting out and doing illegal things, then I believe my children could be in danger.
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 23, 2007 10:57 PM This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 23, 2007 10:56 PM This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 23, 2007 10:32 PM This message has been edited by Jean150 on Mar 23, 2007 10:31 PM
The truth most likely is that unless there is a video of your X going in the women's bathroom, he won't get prosecuted.
No matter how unhealthy your X might be, he's innocent until PROVEN guilty. It wouldn't be good if there was a jury and I was on it. I think your X sucks.
Jean, I think the detective might be using you to pursue a vendetta.
I've known a few cops over the years, and the one I knew best worked in sex crimes. Most of their cases boil down to "he said-she said" even when they "know" the perp is guilty. The "problem" is we can't throw people in jail just because cops (or anyone else) "know" they're creeps.
I want to make very clear that I'm defending the legal process, which embodies the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" and tries to provide fair judgement based upon proof offered in court. As I said to the judge who questioned me before I was accepted onto a jury, my son the Marine took up arms to defend (among other things) our absolute right to a fair trial. I said to the judge I'd be dishonoring my son's choice if I couldn't keep an open mind about people accused of a crime...or about those found not guilty. Cops and prosecutors don't like to lose; they only bring cases they think are good. But sometimes their cases aren't good enough and they have to let go.
Your ex may be a creep, but the court said he's a not-guilty creep. Now the detective has another case that's not as good and he wants to drag you into it as extra ammunition.
MM, the ex already was prosecuted for this kind of offense. Three women individually identified him as the man who had been doing this, each of them said they saw him either in or leaving the women's restroom. One of them, after her encounter, saw him a few days later in the cafeteria and took a photo of him with her cell phone to take to the authorities herself.
Chris -- thanks for the clarification. However, I am the one who originally contacted the detective to ask questions after the first trial was over. The fact that there was fourth woman persuing the same charge was hugely concerning to me. I called concerning the details of that, and we got to talking. I stayed completely out of the first trial, but that's just not the end of it. If it weren't for the children, I wouldn't be concerned.
The detective said he gave the ex any opportunity he wanted to help clear his name -- even offered a voice stress test, which he failed (even tho this fact was not admissable in court). Again, the prosecution didn't seek me out -- they didn't even know who I was in the courtroom -- I was the only observer there. I don't see how the detective could have a vendetta against the man -- not saying he doesn't, just that I don't know his thinking.
As my thinking has settled down a bit over the last couple of days, I'm realizing that it may not be wise for me to act as a rebuttal character witness against him. Then again, that may be a mute point if I'm supoenaed.
I called the ex last night to tell him that our son got braces, I've got orthodontic papers for him to sign, and then also asked him what does he know about this other charge. He said basically that it's a stupid case with no real evidence. He's still mad as hell at me for showing up at the trial and now "doesn't know" when he'd be available to sign these orthodontic financial papers so that we can begin our daughter's treatment. He's pissed that I called him on a Friday night (about 8 p.m.). He doesn't know that I have recently talked to the detective.
Thanks all for walking thru this with me. This is the only place I haver where I can lay it all out. Most of my family (except one brother, one sister), doesn't even know this is going on.
long and hard about this and am now leaning the other way and probably won't testify. I just don't know. Maybe I'll take it one day at a time. I just don't want to find out 5 years down the road that something has happened with him and one of the children and think then that I should have done something.
If there is a way to get supervised visits to quell my concerns without his losing his job, that might be the best scenario in this case, maybe.
Charlie, I just reread your response above (now that I'm not so stressed). No, they were never close. The ex is has really been close to no one, except women, and then usually in a sexual senses. My big brother just has me question everything, which is actually good -- usually. He helps me step out of the emotion and look at facts and possible consequences of any decisions.
I still don't know what I'm going to do. I'm praying for wisdom. I think I might call the lawyer who did my divorce and see what she might suggest. Again, if you look at what's going on in one way -- the signs seem pretty blatant -- my witnessing his porn/sex addiction during our marriage, his revolving girlfriends, sexually charged "chats" with a minor online, four women accusing him of seeing him individually in the women's restroom, my daughter who never wants to be alone with him and doesn't like how he tickles her.
On the other hand, he is intelligent, charming, and says he's just like Dilbert.... and innocent until proven guilty.
possibly because you know him better than the police know him.........
Didn't you say that somebody took a picture of him in the washroom. Doesn't that make it pretty clear that regardless of what the jury decides, he did what he is accused of doing....I mean presuming that picture exists. What reason do these woman have to lie about this? They must be pretty sure it was him and pretty creeped out to accuse him and actually stand in court and testify. Also, how many others are out there that are too scared to come forward.....??
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Mar 25, 2007 11:34 PM
Actually, Kid, one of the women who allegedly confronted him in the restroom saw him in the cafeteria at a later date, after she had heard similar stories from 2 other women. When she saw him him in the cafeteria, she took out her cell phone and took a photo there and later gave that photo to the police. It was entered as evidence (most likely "circumstantial") at the trial.
"regardless of what the jury decides, ...." There was no jury -- it was a bench trial. One of my sisters said that I should write to the judge with what I know but I though -- whoa -- I don't know if that's the proper thing to do.
I'm really tired this morning, but I have "call lawyer" on my to-do list for later today.
hi mate - i havent been around for a bit, just logged in tonight to see how everyone was etc
i think in some ways i agree with your brother and i quote his response to your email.
"Your message concerns me. You say you want “the truth to come out,” but what are the consequences to XXXX (and his children) by playing this out in a criminal proceeding?
Couldn’t you make your own decision [regarding the visitation, I think] based on what YOU know without relying on what someone else says in court?
I can’t imagine that a detective would ask you to testify against him, or on what basis would you think it is appropriate to testify against a former spouse. That seems very unusual. Let me know if you want to talk this through."
i know i am a long way away but i see two very different issues here, one is about your H's current charges and the other is about you and your children.
i think your brother is trying to say is that the cops are trying to join the two and i, like your brother i might issue caution. let the courts and associated witnesses determine the truth or otherwise of your H's charges.
THEN only if you WANT to, agree to be a character witness for him. you cannot be a witness to the events. the cops are really asking for that, they dont care about your relationship with him or your children, they are looking for a conviction. let them get one on their own. then if they get one, make a decision about a victim/character statement or whatever for sentencing.
i agree with your brother in that there are different things happening here and i think that is what he is trying to say. i hope my post is not too late. let the courts make their decision, then you can make yours, in relation to you and your family. your experiences with him DO NOT impact on the charges he is facing but they might on his sentencing. so as i said let the court do their stuff, and then you can do yours, if you want to
you in fact dont have to be involved in the court stuff at all hon. this is not your issue or problem, it your H's. all you need to face or deal with, if you choose to, is the consequence of the court stuff.
i speak from personal experience. my ex some years ago was up on charges and i had to help organise bail (his mother covered - not me). i did provide a 'character reference'. but i did so in terms of him as a person,after the verdict. i did this for him, not for me or our children, (although i said he did help look after the kids etc) but primarily i felt morally i could make such a statement because i felt he was a "good person" in a stupid situation. these were drug related offences and basically he was then a user who had been set up (i did my homework before i provided my written statement to the court, i refused to attend and said i would only provide a referece for sentencing)
i understand your H's offences or charges are different to my experience, but in some ways if you remove the charges and just look at the situation, it is the same. At the end of the day, like my ex H, your H needs to face the charges, they are his doing, etc and therefore the consequences.
you just need to deal with the results, if you want to. if you feel you can give him a character reference then do so. you (as your brother said) should not and cannot be asked to give anymore.
i hope this helps, there is more to this story and the outcome for my ex H, so if you want to discuss the consequences privately email me at kathyw@arach.net.au
take care and remember, this is not your issue, as your brother said
regards
kath
<<i know i am a long way away but i see two very different issues here, one is about your H's current charges and the other is about you and your children.>> The two issues are very much connected in my mind because, if he in fact is guilty, then he is acting out in a sexually deviant manner and then I would be very concerned for my kids.
<<i think your brother is trying to say is that the cops are trying to join the two....>> Actually, Kath, I've joined the two, because I've had outright evidence, hints and gut feelings all along about his sexual addiction.
<<THEN only if you WANT to, agree to be a character witness for him.>> I have already been asked, and I will not be a character witness in support of him. However, I may attest to his character for the prosecution -- that's what I'm so concerned about -- that decision. I don't want him to lose his job, but to have him be called on his behavior and court-ordered counseling would be good. But there are so many ramifications.... I may just continue to discuss the case with the police but not actually testify.
<<you cannot be a witness to the events. the cops are really asking for that, they dont care about your relationship with him or your children,>> Actually, they do. The detective relayed what the prosecutor said -- if they had known during the first trial what they know now (and I agree to testify as a rebuttal character witness) then they are certain that they would have had a conviction.
<<let them get one on their own. then if they get one, make a decision about a victim/character statement or whatever for sentencing.>> That is an idea. Losing his job would not be good for our children. Maybe I could make a statement about counseling and probation vs. jail and/or fine, if it came down to that.
"your experiences with him DO NOT impact on the charges he is facing but they might on his sentencing." That's not what the prosecutor said, tho. That's why I feel so torn about this. In so many words, my input as a rebuttal character witness would have tipped the scales and he would have been nailed.
See, the many has no accountabilty in his life regarding this addiction that I have witnessed. This addiction is usually progressive without intervention. We have children together -- so is his addiction/compulsion progressing and is he taking more risks with acting out, or did the cops just get the wrong man???
I don't know if it's wise for me to lay this all out on this board. I know this is somewhat anonymous, but... ugh.... I don't know. Then again, this is the only place I know to go with this.
The detective just called me. There are two other women, not just one, who have also identified him as the guy doing this in the new charge against him. This in addition to the first three in the first trial. Apparently one of the women in these new charges saw him come into the restroom as she was standing at the mirror and at that time another woman there backed him out of the restroom and told him he was in the wrong place. Several minutes later, the woman at the mirror goes into a restroom stall and low and behold .... he comes back in again!!!!
The detective said that this case will not be about punishment, but that the prosecutor said he wanted him to get into counseling, if he's convicted. And then he said that they most likely would not have a case without my testimony. I'm going to talk to some of my family and still try to walk thru this one day at a time.
True, I could have kept my mouth shut and not talked to the detective and just watched these charges come against him on the court website but c'mon.... if this is him, this is deviant behavior. What else might he be doing that I don't know about?
from what the cops are saying they have enough witnesses and evidence that your H (ex) is doing odd stuff in public bathrooms.
if they have that amount of information, then why do they need you. if you said NO to the coppers then they would just have to go with what they have and if what the detective is saying is true,then they have enough. enough to prove that it is inappropriate in the least.
THEN you can chose to make a statement. the man in a toilet block and the man you are married to are not necessirily (spelling) the same man. if he was a bank robber would you feel responsible, of course not, just because these charges may have a 'sexual' element, does not mean you are responsible or even involved hon.
if i was in your situation i would be saying to the cops, "you either have enough or you dont- i was not there, i cannot give evidence to these charges". end of story hon
take care, as i said before (despite your emotional attachments), let him face this on his own, you were not there, you dont have anything to add to story, let the court deal with it and then you will know what you have to deal with.
i know this is very tough, as i said i have been there done that, but for different charges, but it is important to separate your actions from his for now.
Hey, Kath, this isn't my husband any more. He's been gone since 2001. I'm not tired up emotionally with him. I am concerned for my children and the consequences they may have.
Anyways, I do appreciate your input, and everyone's. I know I've thrown out a lot of details here.
I feel for you, I really do. It appears your X has some serious issues regarding his sexuality. Serious enough that it now involves the law. For now, I would let the judicial system deal with his problems, and when it's all over and you see what the consequences will be, then maybe get a lawyer to deal with his parental obligations and rights.
It would be helpful to figure out what is the "worst case scenario" for you and the kids. I hope for all your sakes he gets HELP.
I think that the worst case scenario is that he is found guilty and loses his job because of it, meaning I will have to scramble to get a full-time job and hope that I don't get 'let go" for having fibromyalgia flare-ups, occasional sick kids, etc. The kids will not have me at home to help with homework, I'll probably be sick much more often and the kids orthodontic work would most likely stop, at least for a while.
He may be a weirdo, but he's a hardworking weirdo. So... am I answering my own question about whether I should testifiy? Not yet. Still praying for wisdom.
STOP IT- stop thinking and making up worst scenarios - beware, dear, beware of self fullfiling prophecies !!
Whatever you are scared shitless of at this time may never happen however in the mean time you are spinning your wheels, making yourself sick, creating stress you don't need and can't afford due to your health problems.
Jean, have trust in yourself - have trust that 'things' will work out the way they are suppose to with or without you.
MM said <<It would be helpful to figure out what is the "worst case scenario" for you and the kids.>>
So I did. I was merely responding to this here post. I already knew what may happen and have been trying not to think about it too much ... thus my trying to take this one day at a time approach.
That's a bit hard to do when the detective keeps calling me. (He's not harassing me, just asking questions, etc.). And it's hard to do when I must call the ex and have him sign financial stuff for orthodontic work. The orthodondist doesn't know all this -- doesn't know that there's a possibility of the father losing his job and benefits. So, literally, I am taking this one day at a time, practically speaking. I hope to find an oral surgeon and have our son's 4 teeth extracted and maybe get in a couple monthly treatments before the benefits may run out. And I'd like to get our daughter started, too, if at all possible.
I'm not frozen in fear. Every day I'm moving forward. I just come here to vent because I'm the only adult in the house here, I have no SO, and only a few family members know, and they are dealing with a different crisis right now (my nephew's cancer, for one).
but..... your negative thinking is bothering me big time - my problem I know re. your children' care: there is such a thing as Medicaid - I have suggested it to you I believe several times - did you check into it? My step-son, albeit all his childhood on his father's medical insurance, had all his dental care thru Medicaid - he was eligible. And, Jean, one more and final time: think positive !
I did look into Medicaid. The children are covered under Medicaid's Healthy Children program, but that doesn't cover orthodontics at all. Already checked that.
I don't mind a kick in the butt once in a while if I'm coming off as too negative. Believe it or not, tho, I come to the forums to unload, so that I can get it off my chest and then not worry about it -- I leave it here and then go for walks or do stuff with my kids.
My problem -- I have a hard time enforcing my boundaries unless I'm angry (i.e., the divorce agreement about medical/dental bills). I wonder why that is..... If I can maintain healthy boundaries all the time while staying pleasant and relaxed, that would be a big step forward for me.
I was told that orthodontics is not covered. Maybe it's a state thing. However, I do appreciate your input and I will call the providing company again, to make certain.
Y'all here help me keep my sanity. I can see now that if I need to testify, I will. Did I mention that there have been a total of 5 women who have pinpointed him? I'm feeling a little calmer about the decision I have to make. (Right now, anyways!) I see that I have options.
I talked to an acquaintance of mine who works in Children's Services, and she suggested that I get a lawyer (Legal Aid, we hope) and just put into the court a request to modify visitation (probably supervised visitation) on my own -- mentioning the reasons and history behind the ex's charges without actually testifying against him in court. That may be the best way to go to protect the kids.
