I thought that you lived in Virginia and with all that's been happening just wanted you to know I was thinking about you and your family. Hope everybody is safe and emotionally okay!
I am also in Virginia, I've lived here my whole life and this tragic event has been very traumatic to me. I didn't go to Tech, many of my friends did including three of my next door neighbors.
I have so many friends with kids in college now. You want so much for your kids to go to a good college and you know you can't protect them from everything but this is just so horrible. I have been in tears so many times in the last two days reading about the people who were so senselessly killed. So far I don't think I personally know any of the victims that were killed, but several of them were from this area and the shooter was from Centreville which is about eight miles away from me. My kids' schools are having lockdown drills to practice for emergencies and there is increased police presence at all the schools.
My son commented this morning on the loners at school. He said that he watches them sometimes. I imagine in the back of his mind he worries about the students who appear isolated as they have sometimes turned out to be shooters in these sad situations.
It is all pretty sad. I didn't know any of the people in the current tragedy. Some of you may remember that my ex BF of two years went there and we went to a few Hokie football games the last few years. It has affected people around here a lot. My neighborhood had a vigil last night to honor the victims but I had class. Many of my friends went to Tech but that was years ago. I do notice a lot of people on the college campus that I go to are a lot more aware of their surroundings now.
My buddy, a Thai guy is most fearful of all. He has mentioned how quiet that guy was and pointed out similarities in himself to him. We always tell him he is too quiet when he's with us and now he is comparing himself to the killer. We just told him today during lunch that he is nothing like that other guy, he has a large group of friends (US) and is very personable if you can get him talking. We told him that he never wrote the strange stories that the killer had done. He's like a little brother to me and a very gentle soul. Anyway, it is sad how it affected him, I suppose he has felt left out some because of a slight language barrier.
My divorce lawyer told me the other day that he was in that hall where the killings were the day before trying to see if his daughter wanted to go there - it really seemed to freak him and his family out. His daughter will now be going to JMU. The whole thing is pretty sad.
Great look what is on my school website as of tonight.
"SECURITY ALERT FROM "Insert" UNIVERSITY
Late Wednesday afternoon, "Insert" University received a telephone threat, which the university is taking seriously. The caller threatened a shooting on campus. The university has increased security on campus and our police are working with the "Insert" City Police to ensure safety for students, faculty and staff. Please exercise caution and report any unusual activity to the campus police at "_ _ _"-4000. Students who choose not to attend class tonight will be accommodated."
Some students will do anything to get out of an exam, Charlie.
I know someone at another university where a "suspicious" man was sighted carrying something that looked like a weapon. It was phoned in and within minutes, the president of the university ordered a lockdown. (How do you "lockdown" a major university with dozens of buildings, each with multiple entrances, anyway?)
The man turned himself in later. He'd been carrying an umbrella.
Here's the bottom line: They can increase security all they want, and they can lock down whatever they want. If a psycho gets it in his head that he's going to start shooting some people, he's going to start shooting some people, and this other stuff won't mean a thing.
That's the sad FACTS, my friends... Now, here's something that HASN'T been widely reported. Did you know that in the past few years, some other potential disasters like this have been averted? Do you know how?
In each and every case, someone was nearby who had access to their own firearms, and was able to take out the attacker.
Remember, outlaw guns, and only the outlaws will have them.
I know what you mean, we often have bomb threats during exam week too, I'm sure most schools do. If these young kids would just study instead of party all the time, they wouldn't have to do this crap!!
case in point Cory.........canada apparently has tough gun laws and gun controls in place. We still have the same things happen, just have never had something of this magnitude or number of people. The people still found access to a gun. My point is, those that want to kill will always find a weapon on the street, in a registered family or friends home, or through a dealer.
My dad is vehemently opposed to gun control since he has a very large collection of antiques and collectibles, as well as many guns for hunting and recreation. Scary I know, but I grew up with guns that were laying under the bed with ammo nearby. We lived in the country and if a bear attacked the farm animals you got rid of the threat and you acted quickly. My dad is now much more careful about things like that, but I grew up to respect guns and the damage they could cause. I knew you just never went near them and I was trained to shoot at a very early age. Wrong....hmm maybe but I develop respect and I knew how to use one properly. Now if something were to happen to my dad it would be difficult to find a person to purchase those collectibles, antique guns and hunting rifles. My sister and I would have to get rid of them ASAP yet the paperwork and headache would make it a monsterous task. My dad recently had this happen with an uncle that passed away and left him some prize pieces..........and my dad has all the registrations and paperwork!!!!
I also grew up with guns around the house but my dad kept the guns themselves usually locked up but the ammunition everywhere in his room. He is also a big hunter. He also taught us to respect guns and to shoot and it can really be a blast. I love skeet shooting the most, it can be fun but shotguns can be too!!!
Something funny, my dad didn't like one of the guys my sister was dating once when I was young and he got his gun out to clean as the guy was coming over. I thought it was funny!! My dad is a gentle soul but this was a little scare tactic I think. He didn't say so at the time but we all knew it.
In the drawer where my parents keep their knives my dad had this huge colletors machete. It looked like something that one would use back in ancient times to chop off somebody's head. Anyway, when my ex and I started dating I was living with my parents temporarily. He came over one night and we were preparing a bbq dinner and I asked him to get a knife from the knife drawer and told him where to find it. I was coming in the door from the bbq and saw his face and couldn't stop laughing.........he was standing at the drawer with this machete in his hands going....ummmm what's this. He looked terrified. My response......my dad uses it to keep my dates in line
ah guns, i had a big rave about this on healing heart network54, and got some really good responses to the debate, especially from mike in tx. i learnt a lot about your culture and the debate from your side 'of the pond'. so go there is you are interested in my thoughts, it is an thread on vtech.
i had to laugh about kids knife stuff, i am terrified of knives (oh and lightening), i was stabbed by some twit by mistake at a party, when i was a teenager (i still have the scar on my chest). however, while i can understand that having a gun might make one feel protected, i still think that in some ways it 'ups the anti'. Also guns do more damage than knives etc, or rather to more people than a knife can do.
i am so conflicted on this issue. as i said in my thread on the other site, we just dont have guns here, so there are no mistakes. or few mistakes. (although i think we sadly have the world record for a killer with a gun at port arthur in tasmania)
on a day to day basis we just dont see them, have access to them etc. some years ago i looked at a house to buy and in the middle of the house there was a sealed cell, which i thought was weird, (but possibly handy for securing important family documents). i remember thinking "this is a gun security lock up", and it was.
anyway enough said for now, i am glad that all on the site are safe.
not sure how i would feel or react if i could have a gun here, i probably would try to get one, just to feel safe, but i do feel safer knowing that if some idiot comes into the house the max he will have is a knife or a bat or something. this comes from the lady whose son was mugged here in little old perth about 6 weeks ago, by a guy with an AXE. good god. who knows if it was a gun it could have been worse.
it is a bit like the deserving and non deserving arguement, maybe good people can have guns to protect themselves from bad people who have them, or knives or baseball bats or whatever
tis interesting watching this from the other side of the pond.
take care all - enough late night raving, but i would be interested in your comments to this and my stuff on the other site.
as i said there, it is sad that there are so many victims, good and innocent ones and also the shooter he is sadly a victim too of whatever, i feel sad for his family. but maybe not as sad or angry as i do for hic victims families. that is telling in itself isnt it.
Kath, you presented some good thoughts. I can see it working if no one had a gun, but I'm just not sure how one goes about making that happen and being successful at it.
I read the post by Mikentx on the other forum. He pretty much summed up our family's view on firearms. I guess my take is that I wouldn't want to live where we didn't have the right to protect our family.
GT
This message has been edited by gettingthere on Apr 23, 2007 11:02 AM
It would take hundreds of years (or a gross invasion of privacy rights Americans hold dear) to rid the North American continent of guns. So even if we never allowed the sale of another new gun, there are already enough guns and ammunition out there for gun-owning Americans to kill everyone on Earth. Probably more than once.
I think we would be better served figuring out how all the alarming warning signs of an extremely hostile, angry, and unstable young man who was clearly mentally ill were ignored by the people who had the authority to do something about it. Or maybe in our rush to "mainstream" the mentally ill (and stop "warehousing" them) in this country, we no longer have the capacity in our health care system to deal with people like him.
This situation cannot be allowed to degenerate into feel-good-ism about how the poor boy was picked on in middle school, either. EVERYONE gets picked on in middle school, and always has. Again...we can't prevent bullying, but we can teach kids to deal with it. Nor can this be about class warfare. My sons grew up with their parents working hard in drycleaning shops, too, but as best I can tell, neither kid is a homicidal maniac.
A sad truth is; there always have been and there always will be crazy, angry, biochemically screwed up people/lunatics. Another sad truth is; guns are an effective way of destroying a lot of lives quickly. But I also believe that a person has a right to protect their family from said lunatics.
But there seems to be a serious social problem with young men in the social/academic setting. As far as I can recollect all of the school shootings have been done by young men.
I took a class once and there was this theory that said 'most' young men have an innate desire for warfare.
I think a lot of young men are frustrated with the messsge that 'society' promotes about success. You need to be good looking, have plenty of money, a snazzy car, a title, and then you will be rewarded with a princess and fans that adore you. Well, that isn't the reality for most young men, and they end up feeling like failures. Hmmm.
I'm calling all my sons right now and tell them how awesome they are.
edited to add; I'm not saying that people who have biochemical issues are lunatics.
TLMM
This message has been edited by taigalucy on Apr 23, 2007 2:13 PM This message has been edited by taigalucy on Apr 23, 2007 1:16 PM
This is such an interesting discussion and a fascinating look at different cultural attitudes toward guns. In Canada, handgun ownership is not regarded as a right – in fact you can't legally own one unless you are a collector, target shooter, transport valuables or large amounts of cash for a living or have one of the very few private licenses (about 50 nationwide) to carry a sidearm. However, in rural areas, long guns are commonly used for sport, predator protection, etc.
There is a huge amount of political wrangling here about our firearms legislation and a lot of passionate opinions. Many urban residents are in favour of completely banning handguns (or all guns) with heavy sentences for those accused of gun crimes. They are understandably shaken by the increase of gang violence with illegal weapons in their cities. However, hunters and farmers in rural areas have a very different view -- a few years ago when a registration bill was introduced, trucks in my rural area sported bumper stickers that said “I'll register my shotgun when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.” I do think they meant it.
A quick look at Statistics Canada (year 2000) indicates that the homicide rate has been declining here since the 1970's. Firearms accounted for about a third of all homicides (183) with handguns accounting for 60% of the shootings.
183 gun related homicides in a population of over 30 million would seem quite low and I do believe that is due to gun control. However, it does not mean we don't have our share of destructive lunatics who use guns to make their insane points. The Montreal massacre in which 14 women were shot to death by 25 year old Marc Lepine is a tragic example. We seem to have an increase in gang and organized crime in cities and with that comes an influx of illegal handgun and violence. Our current government is big on tackling gun crime, however, I really wonder if TLMM has not hit the nail on the head in her post above. The fact is that 9 in 10 of those accused of homicide (in Canada at least) are male. Maybe instead of laws that deny bail, increase sentences, etc. we should be looking at how we as a society are treating our boys and young men.
One example that comes to mind is our son (now 30). As a youngster my H streamed him toward competitive sport and he loved and excelled in hockey. From 5 years of age until 17 H coached his teams and they spent 5-6 nights a week at the rink between practices and games. In the summer there were hockey clinics and camps that kept him busy. Many (many!) times I objected to participation in a sport where he ended up in the hospital with concussions and assorted injuries and on two occasions was taken off the ice by ambulance. I could not even go and watch after the games included body contact. But H was adamant that our son was better off at the rink than the mall – and I believe he was right. There was guidance and leadership from the adult coaching staff, lots of team bonding, learning self-control as well as learning appropriate aggression. He was valued as a member of his team and kept those friendships into adulthood. We still keep in touch with many of the youngsters (who now have families of their own!) that were on the teams through the years and for the most part, they seem significantly better off than the boys in our neighbourhood who were left to their own devices had no opportunity to participate in a disciplined activity.
I live in the midwest where guns are, it seems, owned by EVERYONE. I don't own a gun - my family only ones a few, passed down from grandfathers. The area high schools are closed for the opening day of shotgun season (deer hunting). Our labor force is minimal on that day - I'd guess 75% of the laborers at work are out those few days a year. I have no issue with guns, in that regard. My issue is why anyone needs to own a semi-automatic weapon. Sure, we have 'the right' - but for what purpose? Who NEEDS an AK-47?! The gang bangers who shoot 7 year olds on the way to school, in accidental drive by shootings. I'm a gun CONTROL proponent, for sure. But, even if guns were outlawed, criminals would still find a way to obtain guns - the same as they do with drugs and everything else the government has outlawed.
That being said... Isn't being picked on in school a sad part of life? That is what kids do - in order to establish a pecking order. Kids can be BRUTAL. The few "outcasts" are sometimes outcasts by their own choosing, at least to some degree. No, they don't deserve to be picked on constantly, but a lot of times, they CHOOSE not to be in the mainstream. I was picked on, some, in school - I wasn't a sporto, I wasn't a stoner, I wasn't a brainiac, I was somewhere in the middle with friends from every group. Kids pick on kids.
Where we fail as a society (in my opinion) is when we don't teach kids to handle it. We're too worried about making sure EVERY kid plays basketball. We're concerned when Jr. fails his math test (that he probably wasn't prepared for, in the first place). What if Johnny and Susie are damaged forever because they weren't good enough to play sports or failed a test? Guess what?! Welcome to real life. We're not guaranteed anything, as adults, are we? We don't get EVERY job we want, we don't have all the money we want falling out of our butts, we don't always have a perfect life. We're so busy building their self-esteem that we're not preparing them for disappointments and failures as adults. The most important lessons I learned in school were the ones that I didn't GET on my first try! I studied more the next time, I practiced harder, I bore the responsibility. I haven't had to discuss my junior Geometry grades in therapy - I hated it, I didn't study, I didn't do a lot of the homework, I barely passed... but I am a pretty well-adjusted adult, in spite of it!
I remember my Dad telling my older brother to stand up for himself when he was picked on. Now, they'd probably throw my Dad in jail for advocating such violence! Lots of issues were settled on the playground, after school. Violence isn't the answer, I don't mean that. But, sometimes, kids can and will handle it themselves and straighten it out - until school admimistrators get involved and make the kid go through sensitivity training type classes. I also remember my Mom wanting to call the parents of another kid harrassing my brother or I. It wasn't the school's responsibilty to make sure I was self-actualized. It was their responsibility to keep me SAFE, yes - but what we have now goes well beyond that, IMO. Our schools now have anti-bullying policies ... but, the kids on the lunatic fringe have taken being bullied onto a whole new plane. It's almost like being bullied is a free pass to do whatever a person wants. "The shooter killed 10 kids... Ohhh, but he was bullied in middle school..." We didn't have those policies in the 80s when I was in school and I can't remember ANY school shootings.
We can't cocoon kids. We can't protect them from every evil of the world. The more we try, the more insulated from REAL LIFE they become and the more ill-equipped they are to manage stress. But, ahhh... they are sitting the bench at every baseball game, aren't they?!
It's just a whole new world, these days. Sorry... I'll step off my soapbox now!
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
Well. I live in VA which has some of the most NRA-friendly gun laws in the nation. While I can appreciate the argument that a well-trained armed person (such as a police officer) could possibly have stopped some of those poor VA Tech kids from being killed, I worry much more about all the accidental shootings that could result from more people carrying firearms. I mean, why do we want to back to the wild wild west where every argument was settled with a gun? Aren't we better than that? If your knew that anyone that threatened you had a gun, would you shoot first and ask questions later? Is that the "society" you want to live in?
I remember after d-day, there was one night where I had too much to drink and I had such rage in me that I never had had before. I swear if there had been a gun accessible to me someone - whether my H, the OW or myself - probably would be dead now. To me, that is why restricting access to guns is the right thing to do. I don't care how much training you have - and I have shot many a gun before - any one of us is capable of poor judgement given the right circumstance.
This VA Tech shooting has affected me so deeply - the shooter lived about 8 miles from me, the principal of his high school is now my son's principal - many of the kids killed went to local high schools with my friends' kids. It is one of the most senseless and tragic things imaginable.
But I think it makes the case for fewer guns, not more. He purchased at least one of the guns in March. If he had to wait longer to get it, six months, he would have graduated and life would have looked different to him. Yes, you can use other weapons to kill, but nothing kills as many as the automatic guns.
I will never believe the world is a better place because of guns. I choose to believe that humans have been given the intellectual capacity to find peaceful means for settling disputes without resorting to violence.
I'm not real educated in this area. My opinions are based on the few things I read and how I was raised. But I do appreciate this discussion from all sides.
You wrote>>"While I can appreciate the argument that a well-trained armed person (such as a police officer) could possibly have stopped some of those poor VA Tech kids from being killed, I worry much more about all the accidental shootings that could result from more people carrying firearms">>
I know people who have a conceal carry license. I have to admit I had the same views you had when I heard about it. It scared me to think of ordinary citizens out there carrying guns. But honestly, I just don't read about that many accidental shootings from someone who is carrying a gun. To carry a gun you have to be tested and go through classes in order to get that license. The people I know who have done this are the most responsible gun owners I know. They carry a gun to protect themselves, not so they can be cocky and start arguments. But I know there are most likely people out there who are like that.
The accidental shootings that occur with children are usually a result (IMO) of a parent who didn't keep their guns locked in a safe place away from the reach of a child. I think it's better to educate children on firearms and then past that keep them out of their reach. They should have a "healthy" fear of them. I'd rather my child be educated on how to use (or not use) one than for them to just happen upon one some day and be curious enough to "play" with it.
>>I mean, why do we want to back to the wild wild west where every argument was settled with a gun? Aren't we better than that?>>
I don't know anyone who wants to go back to those days. And I know a lot of people who own guns. Again, I honestly don't think it would come to that if more people had guns. You'd probably be surprised to know just how many people carry guns as it is, and you never know it.
>>If you knew that anyone that threatened you had a gun, would you shoot first and ask questions later? Is that the "society" you want to live in?>>
This is just my opinion, but I don't think the majority of people out there would be any more likely to pull the trigger in haste than they are now. It might actually stop some of the road violence and muggings. If you turn that around, would you be more or less likely to threaten someone if you thought they might have a gun?
>>I remember after d-day, there was one night where I had too much to drink and I had such rage in me that I never had had before. I swear if there had been a gun accessible to me someone - whether my H, the OW or myself - probably would be dead now>>
There are many ways to do bodily harm to someone. What about the woman who ran over her husband when he was coming out of the hotel with the OW? My opinion is if you were really out of control that night and wanted to harm your husband or the OW that night, you'd have done it, gun or no gun.
<<To me, that is why restricting access to guns is the right thing to do. I don't care how much training you have - and I have shot many a gun before - any one of us is capable of poor judgement given the right circumstance>>
Again, poor judgment doesn't always involve guns. To me it's like alcohol. It's legal and easy to access. But I'm not an alcoholic because of it.
>>This VA Tech shooting has affected me so deeply - the shooter lived about 8 miles from me, the principal of his high school is now my son's principal - many of the kids killed went to local high schools with my friends' kids. It is one of the most senseless and tragic things imaginable>>
It is a senseless tragedy. But I think the man would have found another way even if he hadn't had access to guns. He could have used a bomb like in the Oklahoma City bombing. I have relatives there, one who was in that building just minutes before it happened. I believe someone who is out to commit such an act will see it through no matter what. Especially if they aren't scared to die in the process.
>>But I think it makes the case for fewer guns, not more. He purchased at least one of the guns in March. If he had to wait longer to get it, six months, he would have graduated and life would have looked different to him>>
I have to respectfully disagree here. This was a young man who was very troubled. Many things had happened to him in his life that should/could have made his outlook on life look different. Yet none of it seemed to work. I don't think graduating would have given him a different outlook on life. Having to wait on a gun might have slowed his plan down some, or possibly his target would have been a workplace or even a public mall or something of that nature. But I believe he was going to commit this senseless crime no matter what.
>>Yes, you can use other weapons to kill, but nothing kills as many as the automatic guns>
I agree with that statement. But I also have read stories where someone drove their car (on purpose) into a fast food restaurant and killed many innocent victims. I just don't know how we can say taking away guns would stop people from killing.
>>I will never believe the world is a better place because of guns. I choose to believe that humans have been given the intellectual capacity to find peaceful means for settling disputes without resorting to violence>>
I don't think the world is a better place because of guns. And if everyone was "sane" and responsible I'd say do away with all of them. Some of us have the intellectual capacity to settle things peacefully, but that doesn't protect us from the one's who can't or won't. People steal, rob, rape, and mug other people daily. I don't think taking guns away will stop that.
If someone decides to break into my home and harm either me or my children then I think they should expect that I'm going to try and stop them. And I still maintain that I have the right to do that if they invade my property or person.
I realize there are many views on gun control. And I try to be a big enough person to respect all of them. I don't want to go back to the days where we're all carrying guns like in the wild wild west. But I just don't see how rounding up all the guns would work. As Cory (or someone else said) that would only make the law abiding citizens wide open to the ones who pay no attention to the laws. The criminals would know we had no defense against them.
It would take the police quite awhile to make it to my house in the event of a break in. And that's only if I could get to a phone to call them. I'm just not willing to put my safety and that of my children into a plan that may or may not work. Granted, I may not be able to defend us either, but I feel better knowing I have that option.
GT
This message has been edited by gettingthere on Apr 24, 2007 10:14 AM
Thanks GT, I can tell you have thought carefully about this issue. Like many such issues, I don't think anything will convince me to change my mind and likewise I wouldn't expect to change yours. Thanks again for your thoughts,
