For those of you who are either divorced or thinking about it or even who may in the future, I would highly suggest reading this book when you choose to date again.
"Are You The One For Me?" by Barabara DeAngelis, Ph.D.
I've read nearly the whole thing in just a few days and I would say that this book covers nearly everything that went wrong in my marriage and last relationship or should I say "Fatal Flaws" that I should have looked for in a partner. It also has a chapter on "Six qualities to look for in a mate" and if I had read this and actually listened to it in my last relationship, I would have realized that I was dating someone who was emotionally unavailable. It also covers some things that current BF dealt with as well with his ex. I think it is very thorough and will be buying a copy for all of my neices and nephews or my niblings, ha ha.
RW, it may be a good one to list for dating information for divorcees.
I think I have found 5 of the 6. My BF thinks he's an ogre, hideous, etc. He just doesn't think he's cute at all. I do. On a professional level, he is very sure of himself. So, maybe it's 5.5 out of 6?
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
We could always get into one of those "interpretations" discussions. Like how do you interpret the term "high self-esteem"? There could be a lot of different things that self-esteem can entail, don't you think? To me it doesn't mean that you think you are the best looking or even the best at everthing or even anything. To me it can mean that you know you have flaws as we all do, you don't treat others and yourself badly because of your own imperfections, you know you try hard to do the right thing and that you are generally a good person. Maybe that you can be happy without a ton of money and material belongings. I'm sure everyone would interpret "high self-esteem" differently, don't you think?
I think it might be possible for a person to like their self a lot and have really rotten self-esteem. It would show a fatal flaw though - liking a bad self quality rather than disliking it. Although is liking a bad quality actually a good quality contributing to better overall self-esteem?
Your absolutely right RW and the author is good about advising you to recognize and get through those issues (should you have them) before you even try to date Mr. or Mrs "right".
The situation w/BF - he has really low self-esteem. He insists that he doesn't show how much he appreciates me (he does), that he doesn't deserve me (I say the same thing!), that he doesn't do enough for me (I don't require that he do a lot), and that sometimes he comes off as a know-it-all (he's brilliant, and the truth is - he DOES know a lot of "stuff." Add to that, he's in the media so he's up on foreign affairs, current events and knows all there is to know about sports!).
Over the weekend, he said, "You are so beautiful." I said, "You are so crazy!" He said, "Well, I may be, but you're still beautiful. I just hope that you never wake up and realize how far below you I am." I was stunned. He's well-respected, the governor of our state and several congressmen recognize him by name at legislature meetings, the owner of his company told him he would do whatever he could to keep him, people from his community LOVE him, he's got two Bachelor's degrees and a Master's degree, and he's a GOOD and NICE person.
Going back to what you said, RW, rejection will play hell with one's self-esteem. His exW really did a number on him. I don't think there is much I can do but keep reinforcing what a wonderful human being I think he is.
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
""""I think it might be possible for a person to like their self a lot and have really rotten self-esteem. It would show a fatal flaw though - liking a bad self quality rather than disliking it. Although is liking a bad quality actually a good quality contributing to better overall self-esteem?""""
I think that deep down all of us know that we are flawed and for the most part we know what our self flaws are. If we can like ourselves inspite of those flaws is that not self esteem?
ETA: Self esteem is not right or wrong. For someone to say or think that I have a bad self quality, is based on that someone's values. I'm not arguing if they are right or wrong by maybe society standards of conduct. They could be right but if I like myself whether I realize that bad self quality or not, then I have self esteem. The key word being "self".
This message has been edited by hurt2core on May 8, 2007 8:02 AM
Monica wrote>>Over the weekend, he said, "You are so beautiful." I said, "You are so crazy!" He said, "Well, I may be, but you're still beautiful>>
I can't believe one of the guys didn't get on your case about this one. LOL
The correct response (batting of the eyes is optional)when a man tells you you're beautiful is.....thank you. I used to be really bad at taking compliments because I felt I didn't deserve them.
<<I just hope that you never wake up and realize how far below you I am." I was stunned. He's well-respected, the governor of our state and several congressmen recognize him by name at legislature meetings, the owner of his company told him he would do whatever he could to keep him, people from his community LOVE him, he's got two Bachelor's degrees and a Master's degree, and he's a GOOD and NICE person>>
He could really think you are "above" him or just trying to pay you a backhanded compliment.
Someone can be well liked and successful in their careers and still not think (inside where it counts) that they deserve any of it or are worth anything. Sometimes it's just a matter of being humble, sometimes it low self esteem.
<<The correct response (batting of the eyes is optional)when a man tells you you're beautiful is.....thank you. I used to be really bad at taking compliments because I felt I didn't deserve them. >>
GT, he always laughs when I say he's crazy and tells me that one day, I should just take his word for it and say thank you.
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
H2 - that's what I will start telling him!! I tell him all the time that I'm just crazy about him and that's he's better to me than I feel like I always deserve. That is as hard for him to hear as him telling me how beautiful I am. Excellent advice.
Monica
My yesterdays are all boxed up - and neatly put away.
Last night when BF said the your beautiful thing to me, I was trying my very hardest to remember what you wrote in this darned thread and couldn't remember it. Old age sucks!@!!
>>Nathaniel Branden in 1969 briefly defined self-esteem as "…the experience of being competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and being worthy of happiness". This two-factor approach, as some have also called it, provides a balanced definition that seems to be capable of dealing with limits of defining self-esteem primarily in terms of competence or worth alone.<< (from Wikipedia)
So it has nothing to do with feelings about oneself, humility, or high levels of education or achievement. It has to do with competence and grace in facing challenges. If life's challenges hit us as an affront, as unmanageable, as cause for spite and anger, or as a threat or personal insult, then by definition we suffer from poor self-esteem. People who face adversity without (by nature) coming unglued would be said to have high self-esteem.
That's not to say that people with high self-esteem never come unglued in the heat of the moment. I think they do, but recover their basic sense of self and regain their footing fairly quickly. It's staying unglued for long periods that reflects low self-esteem. Everyone comes unglued upon discovering a spouse's affair(s). Everyone feels like crap for a while afterward.
There are lots of people who do (or who have) faced tremendous challenges, often life-threatening or life-altering circumstances, who deal with their challenges with competence and grace (often with some help). And then there are those who choose to export their bad feelings onto those around them; the self-righteous cannot also have self-esteem since their "happiness" involves putting others down (and themselves "one up").
Each one of us has a choice when we face each new day.
<So it has nothing to do with feelings about oneself,>
I respectfully disagree with this statement. Self- esteem, self-worth, whatever terminology one wants to use,
has everything to do with feeling that we are worthy and deserving of having a good life. No matter if we make a terrible mistake, or if someone else does something that harms us, if we feel and know that we are valuable and worthy as a human being, we can decide to deal with those mistakes constructively and make better choices.
If a person doesn't like themselves for whatever reason, they will most likely make poor choices. " I feel like an unworthy piece of sh*t so therefore, I deserve nothing but sh*t and life is giving my what I deserve-sh*t."
When a person comes to know in their head AND their heart that they are valuable and deserve to have positive life experiences, that person is more likely to deal with pain and suffering looking to the future with hope.
Done preaching again!
TLMM
This message has been edited by taigalucy on May 9, 2007 10:07 PM
I don't think it's a matter of whether you like yourself.
Nor do I think low self-esteem is necessarily reflected in saying "I deserve bad stuff". Even those of us with a realistic self-concept expect bad results in certain circumstances. If I cheat on my taxes (or my wife) and get caught, I expect bad outcomes. Merely expecting bad outcomes is not low self-esteem, nor is low self-esteem necessarily the "cause" of my bad choices. Some of us deliberately choose to "tough it out" and stay in bad relationships for security. That's not evidence of low self-esteem.
Low self-esteem is evidenced by dealing with life's bad stuff (or even life's good stuff) in self-destructive ways, like having an affair to prove that you're still attractive.
Exhibiting self-righteousness is evidence of low self-esteem. Someone with good self-esteem does not have to point out ways in which s/he is better than someone else. Creating unequal status (being one up or demonstrating ways in which I'm "better" than others) and then acting on it is a kind of self-destructive behavior that arises from low self-esteem. But it's not evidence of a poor self-image, is it? It's evidence of a pretty high self-image.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a big difference between self-image and self-esteem. Not everyone with a good self-image has good self-esteem. Not everyone with a bad self-image has bad self-esteem. Liking yourself isn't self-esteem either...self-esteem isn't something you DO, it's something that you have and demonstrate through your behavior and choices.
Chris.
This message has been edited by chris924 on May 10, 2007 11:20 AM
I'm working on it Chris. Sometimes I do say that but when you hear it a lot you tend to feel funny saying thank you every time - not sure why. I find myself wanting to compliment him back because I feel that way too, yet it isn't good to do that only when he says something nice.
<Nor do I think low self-esteem is necessarily reflected in saying "I deserve bad stuff".
Many people with low self-esteem feel that that don't deserve to have positive outcomes even when they make a positve choice.
< Even those of us with a realistic self-concept expect bad results in certain circumstances.>
The operative word here is 'realistic'. Of course someone with has a 'realistic' self- concept will understand that bad results will happen. They understand the concept of 'realistic'.
I think self-respect is at the cornerstone of self-esteem. I respect myself because I love myself, therefore I am worthy of having positive outcome in my life. And for the most part those positive outcomes are the result of making postive choices.
Loving oneself is the intrinsic feeling that is the foundation for recognizing self-worth which allows one to make choices based on respect of self and others. It is respectful to love and esteem oneself and others.
I have a feeling you have never suffered terribly from low-self esteem Chris.
Are there any books on how beautiful women with high self esteem are supposed to give and most of all receive compliments? Maybe Chuck, PrincessQuiteAlot, and MM will want to read them.
>>I have a feeling you have never suffered terribly from low-self esteem Chris.<<
You're entitled to your feelings, MM, but that's not an accurate description of my history.
My self-esteem was shot when I came to the boards about two and a half years after d-day. I was self-righteously angry, and I needed validation from the people here in the worst way. I wanted to "prove" that I was a decent person who was being treated like $h!+...and continued to allow it because I didn't have the self-esteem to set and enforce good boundaries. My fears made me doubt myself a lot.
When good friends on these boards helped me to realize that I was not being treated right (which I knew) and didn't have to accept it (which I had been unable to get to), I began to recover good self-esteem. At some point in the divorce process (well after filing) I realized I would survive just fine on my own and set about remaking my own life. I think that was a direct outcome of regaining self-esteem.
I think it is a pretty uniform experience that we experience betrayal and lying, manipulating, and hiding behaviors as emotional abuse. When our partners gained a measure of control through those means, we lost big chunks of self-esteem. When you KNOW you're being treated like $h!+ and still don't take steps to end it...that's the definition of low self esteem. And so is getting stuck in both self-righteous anger and a sense of powerlessness to change things.
I realize that my comment might imply that you never suffered from low self esteem. I apologzie for the lack of detail in the comment, Of course your self-esteem suffered after being treated so badly. But, it is usually the person that has the affair that seriously suffers from the low self esteem. They are the executors of the poor decision making that causes the fall out
It is just my opinion that self-sabotage and the damage it causes is a deeper form of low self-esteem. And that people who don't know self-love/ self-worth are the saboteurs.
Maybe this is getting too semantical.
I don't have any emperical evidence, but just know many people who once they learned to love themselves, were able to make better life choices which nurtured the seeds of self- esteem. Sort of one big teleological loop.
Hopefully, our self-esteem is flourishing now. Or, bring on the next heartache. NOT
When you KNOW you're being treated like $h!+ and still don't take steps to end it...that's the definition of low self esteem. And so is getting stuck in both self-righteous anger and a sense of powerlessness to change things.
I have a problem with the whole self esteem concept. Personally I think there is a very happy medium. Having too high of a self esteem makes you braggy, arrogant and obnoxious in my books. Having too low is a definite turn off, especially when dating. I have seen both extremes and I don't like either.
Certian events in a person's life can shape their self esteem and most especially our childhood. I grew up believing I wasn't worthy of anything (including a hug). I wasn't entitled to feelings and didn't have any support from the people that are supposed to love you. When that compounds with other events in my life (such as an exhusband who goes out of his way to prove what a worthless person you are) it becomes a very difficult balancing act. I don't think everybody has good self esteem all the time. It is when it becomes permanent rather than transient that creates the issue.
Most days my self esteem is pretty much intact, although in the past (after the affair) I know it wasn't. I like me, most days haha!
My book should be here shortly. I can't wait since it sounds good.
I agree you can't have good self-esteem ALL the time!
"Having too high of a self esteem makes you braggy, arrogant and obnoxious in my books"
You know I have a bit of a different take on this. My mother is braggy about her children and her smarts (you can't EVER be wrong with her - even if you show her a book to prove your point) and she seems a bit arrogant and obnoxious at times - it tends to embarrass me when she does it in front of people I know, yet I think her self-esteem is about as low as it comes and I think she brags so she can feel better about herself. I have to say I've seen people with very low self-esteem acting inappropriately as well.
I agree Charlie, that's why I think there is a happy medium. If your self esteem is too high you are either really arrogrant or overcompensating for a low self esteem. That middle range is just fine with me.
Speaking of which, I recently started counselling again as there has been alot of pressure on me from different sources and alot of change and stress in my life recently (for those who don't know my dad had a lump removed a month ago and it tested positive for cancer again ). I went to my appointment last week and my counsellor bluntly asked how such a normal sane feeling kind of girl came from such a dysfunctional family LOL Boosted my spirits for a while! This one is really good and a different one than I had before because our EAP program at work shifted to another health group. I was impressed and it takes alot for a counsellor to impress me and make me feel that comfortable. I'm looking forward to our next visit. My homework was to think of what I hope to achieve by attending counselling (ie what my goal is).
I've learned, the key is knowing when to seek help and when you no longer can figure things out on your own. Being able to admit you need help is an important step in the right direction to a healthier and happier you. I think somehow that ties into self esteem-just not sure how lol
Charlie, I would put people who are the way you described your mother in the "low self-esteem" category. If they have to prove others wrong or bad to make themselves feel better, their self-esteem is low.
Kid, self-esteem problems can be "transient" or "systemic". That is, we all have ups and downs...but when the downs become a life pattern, watch out.
Yep, Kid, it is. One of my "new" habits is to go overboard communicating agreement, just so there's no doubt. In my world, it's far better to overcommunicate (i.e. "talk it to death") than to undercommunicate. Others probably don't see it that way, but I'd wager most former BS do.
Chris.
Current Topic - Book recommendation "Are You The One For Me?"
On a professional level, he is very sure of himself. So, maybe it's 5.5 out of 6?
). I went to my appointment last week and my counsellor bluntly asked how such a normal sane feeling kind of girl came from such a dysfunctional family LOL Boosted my spirits for a while!