(my apologies to Kenny Wayne Shepherd, "Blue on Black")
Okay, everyone. Here's a question that will stir things up. Well, I guess it's really four questions:
Is "the truth" more important to you than maintaining the relationships in your life?
What is "the truth"? What does that mean to you?
And, to paraphrase the infamous words of Jack Nicholson's character in "A Few Good Men", can you HANDLE "the truth" when you get it?
Chris.
Song lyrics:
Blue On Black
by Kenny Wayne Shepherd / Mark Selby / Tia Sillers
recording of 1997
from Trouble Is (Revolution/Warner Brothers 24689), copyright notice
Night, falls,
I'm alone
Skin, yeah,
chilled me to the bone
You, turned and you ran,
oh, slipped from the edge of my hand
Blue on black,
tears on a river
Push on a shove,
it don't mean much
Whisper on a scream,
doesn't change a thing
Don't bring you back
Blue on black
Blind, oh,
now I see
truth, lies,
and in between
Wrong,
can't be undone
Slipped,
from the tip of your tongue
Blue on black,
tears on a river
Push on a shove,
it don't mean much
Whisper on a scream,
doesn't change a thing
Don't bring you back
Blue on black
This message has been edited by chris924 on Dec 6, 2007 9:50 PM This message has been edited by chris924 on Dec 6, 2007 9:46 PM This message has been edited by chris924 on Dec 6, 2007 9:45 PM
Well speaking of lately, no I haven't been able to handle the truth when I've gotten it. But...I think I can handle the truth when it is about things that I'm happy with. In other words if someone isn't doing things that, in my mind, are immoral and unethical I can handle just about anything.
Well, if the relationship is not based on the truth, then it is not a healthy or a right relationship. I am not afraid of the truth; I know who the Truth is.
<<Is "the truth" more important to you than maintaining the relationships in your life?>> I wouldn't say it was more important, but I would say that it is a requirement to having and maintaining a healthy relationship, whether romantic or not. What's the opposite of truth? Lies, deceptions, illusions, pretense....
But in the same vein, if we knew all objective truth about everyone we know, as God knows it, I'm sure we'd have a LOT more than we bargained for.
As a formerly betrayed partner, I wanted the truth -- so I could make some sense out of why my gut feelings were not lining up with what I really, desparately wanted to be true.
What does 'truth' mean? Hmm. It varies in sizes, colors, and shapes but it's always the same and it always comes out in the wash. You can call it God or Great Spirit or Universal Law or Om, but you can't change it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I did 'handle' the truth when I got it toward the end there. One way to get a large dose of it is by way of over-hearing 'unedited' conversations.
Being very analytical, I could eventually siphon through much of it to come up with my own 'truth'. I was in fact dealing with an alcoholic who had his affair with a major pot head (his own words). I really couldn't take all they did and said personally. Even the affair - I was coming down hard on his increasing addiction. He became physically abusive. He lied a great deal. She (married with 3 kids) stepped up to basically fully support it and sleep with him too!
After all of that it seems in general the truth is more important to me now than maintaining relationships. Many false relationships fell through during the affair and then during the divorce. The solid ones lived on and some new ones evolved. I'm more discerning of relationships now because I can not afford the time and energy put into questionable ones....or the resulting damage.
My relationship with my WS is hanging on a thread by truth. I feel the truth is everything a relationship is made of. There is more to just telling no lies when referring to the truth. Truth in love equals emotion, feelings, criticism & understanding... But in my case, our relationship will only work if we both feel the safety from one another. Safety to allow us to open our hearts and share this honesty. One more thing about the truth. Those questions that everyone refers to on the BS side. Those questions are not for the faint at heart. I know that I "CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH." I made the mistake of asking all the wrong questions. I got all the answers I did not want to hear. Answers that I may carry for a very long time. I think that it was a way to sort out a past that can't be sorted or it is a way to prepare myself for more pain? not sure. I know that I will only be asking them on paper to myself from now on. So, there is healing, I'm in love my wife so very much. Much more that I was before D-Day. Time and Honesty are all I have. Plus, I'm just now starting to figure this all out, the honesty thing. It's very complicated. I'm trying to get a handle on all of it. Reading a lot and writing a lot! There is so much more to it than I every realized. I though if you just told the truth everything would be good. Not true....
Not to change the subject, but does anyone feel that giving their WS this website would be too much information?
This message has been edited by clint_jr on Dec 7, 2007 8:30 AM This message has been edited by clint_jr on Dec 7, 2007 8:18 AM
My wife used to read on this and another site almost daily, she also would participate in chat. She never posted as by her own admission she has a hard time expressing herself in writing.
The one thing your WS should realize is that what you post and the responses to what you post from others here are not personal attacks. If anyone feels that a personal attack is being made, most of us will comment about that or the moderators will get involved. However, many of us here don't sugarcoat the truth, so feathers can occasionally be ruffled.
For my wife, she gained an understanding of just how deeply she had hurt me, what I was feeling, and what I was trying to work through at various stages. Sharing the site with your WS is a personal decision.
<<Is "the truth" more important to you than maintaining the relationships in your life?>>
I wouldn't say it was more important, but I would say that it is a requirement to having and maintaining a healthy relationship, whether romantic or not. What's the opposite of truth? Lies, deceptions, illusions, pretense....
---
I guess I was getting at a distinction between "truth" and mere information. And I also see a difference between earthly "truth" and eternal Truth.
If I know something about what someone did 20 or 30 years ago, is that "truth" or is it merely information? The truth seems to me more about motivation and implication than about words and actions. The truth is what emerges when we use our discernment to form a judgement about words and actions, I think.
I also do not necessarily see a connection between the "truth" I see in others' behavior and any eternal truth. I believe that we are all endowed by our Creator with free will and that we are all imperfect beings. I EXPECT imperfection in people, including myself. I believe I must apply the eternal truths in which I believe to my own behavior, including how I deal with others in relationships. I do not believe it is my place to hold other people accountable to my eternal truth...I believe that happens in the spiritual world and not in the temporal.
I guess I was getting at a distinction between "truth" and mere information. And I also see a difference between earthly "truth" and eternal Truth.
I see truth, in part, as information, and yet it is so much more.
But I don't see a difference between earthly truth and eternal truth. I don't make a distinction between earthly matters and eternal matters -- I believe both "matters" are connected, and both matters influence each other. I see Truth is objective, not subjective. And yet... perception is everything.... right? :-b
Chris..
I needed the truth 5 yrs. ago...my H lied and that lie has snowballed to huge proportions over the past years...
if he had told the truth...so many things would Not have happened...I hate the LIE...and in reality it was a self protection but cost so much in emotions, for me and for others...so many decisions were based on that LIE...and looking back I really struggle with all the back lash of the lie...so truth is very important to me...it would have been so easy to tell me the truth..the back lash would not have happened and he would not be under the stress he is in today if he had only told the truth.
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
Pat, that's exactly my point: the "truth" five years ago isn't the truth today. Five years ago the truth was about what he was doing or not doing and why.
The truth today is either that your relationship is salvageable OR destroyed beyond saving. That truth is entirely up to you, not to him. He is who he is, and he did what he did, and he is either present and available to you as your partner or he isn't.
You get to decide, today, tomorrow, and every day forever. But you can't change yesterday.
Wow! What a profound title. When my H began to tell the truth about his affair, certain facts I couldn't handle.When he said he was locked and loaded at one point with having sex with the OW I packed his bags and set them at the door.He later went on to say that when he realized it was just sex between them and he stood a good chance of losing his wife he called and told her it was over. This was also after I provided proof of the affair.I no longer ask for details because not only can I not handle it, as it isn't important as we have both moved on to healing.
""""as it isn't important as we have both moved on to healing.""""
Jerrie, proceed with caution here. If it were as easy as you make it sound, we probably wouldn't have a need for this website or the hundred books that have been written on the subject. Don't lock yourself into a "certain mode" as you may be setting yourself up for failure later when your mind gets other ideas as more truth or information comes out. Chances are more will come out whether you want it to or not. You just never know when the rollercoaster ride from hell is gonna go into a tail spin.
ETA,
Also, don't set any timelines for your healing. I remember at about 6 months on one of my rollercoaster "high" moments I was convincing myself that we were gonna get thru our healing in record time. Wrong. I also foolishly locked into a specific amount of time to be healed from reading books on the subject. Wrong again. When I hit those timelines I got even more frustrated and infuriated when I wasn't as far as I'd wanted to be. I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to help you avoid some of the pitfalls that some of us have encountered. As I say that, we are all different and we all need different things in order to heal since all of our situations have different specifics. It takes as long as it takes. That's it, nothing else.
H2C
This message has been edited by hurt2core on Dec 9, 2007 10:36 AM This message has been edited by hurt2core on Dec 9, 2007 10:34 AM
Please don't get me wrong . I never gave my self a time line. At this point and time I believe I'm past the discovery phase. I know the affair took place. I know my husband is a liar and a cheat until he changes his behavior. The truth be told we have discussed this every day since D-day.We have had numerous arguments, we've been to counseling and we both belong to another type of support group where we can freely express our feelings and not be judged. All of this has mainly centered on what happened and why.Going into specifics of the sex etc, will only make me angry and fuel the pain. He has admitted to the affair,has had no further contact with her and on his part has done everything I asked of him and more.We go to bed in each others arms, spend more time together than ever before, wake up together and read a daily meditation and discuss it.I'm not going to keep beating him upside the head when I want to move on.My D-day was August 13,2007.Also believe me when I say I'm not rushing this. I told my H several times that I may go back and forth but just for today and the past several days I'm going foward.
Please don't get me wrong . I never gave my self a time line. At this point and time I believe I'm past the discovery phase. I know the affair took place. I know my husband is a liar and a cheat until he changes his behavior. The truth be told we have discussed this every day since D-day.We have had numerous arguments, we've been to counseling and we both belong to another type of support group where we can freely express our feelings and not be judged. All of this has mainly centered on what happened and why.Going into specifics of the sex etc, will only make me angry and fuel the pain. He has admitted to the affair,has had no further contact with her and on his part has done everything I asked of him and more.We go to bed in each others arms, spend more time together than ever before, wake up together and read a daily meditation and discuss it.I'm not going to keep beating him upside the head when I want to move on.My D-day was August 13,2007.Also believe me when I say I'm not rushing this. I told my H several times that I may go back and forth but just for today and the past several days I'm going foward.Also he hasn't been with her since she came down here in January of this year,2007.In January of 2008, next month will be a year ago,but I didn't find out anything until August13,2007.Please read my discovery note titled "Good Morning Pain".
This message has been edited by jerry2lou on Dec 9, 2007 3:03 PM This message has been edited by jerry2lou on Dec 9, 2007 3:02 PM
I know that H2C's caution, and the one I'm going to add, sound a bit like we think we know it all. I'm coming up on nine years since d-day; I never even came to these boards until more than two years after. H2C is well over 5 years and has been posting most of that time. What I think we would both like to say is that some people find that "months" is too soon to know for sure that a WS can be trusted.
From experience, my sense is that you're at the stage where the daily pain has started to wear off and you feel better, more trusting, more optimistic, more inclined to imagine that good things are ahead.
And good things might very well be ahead. Or not. It might take quite some time to know. After a couple of years, a pattern of secret-keeping started creeping back into my marriage and that was the ultimate death blow. But the affair was definitely the wake-up warning that my ex-wife liked keeping big secrets from me...secrets that kept me off guard.
Before I came to this site I told my H I didn't trust and I may never trust him 100%, ever again.All I keep saying at this point after being in D- day every day since August 13,2oo7 Which partially caused my husband to lose his job, enough of the moment when I first found out.I used to call him on his cell at work at least 10 or more times and we would argue while he supervised the employees he was in charge of .I'm not saying this pain has gone away completely but I would like to take some tiny steps to heal.
Let me ask you (any one of you) this ... do you consider it 'keeping a secret' when your partner feels one way about an issue, but doesn't divulge their true feelings to you?
This was the 'deal breaker' for me. There was something going on, and we had to come together on it and figure out what we were going to do. I told him my thoughts and he led me to believe that he was on the same page as I was. In fact, we had futher conversations about it and (although he was procrastinating on what he needed to do) I still didn't realize that he wasn't in agreement with me. Months later (when he was backed into the corner) ... he ends up telling me what he really thought and then tried to blame me by saying that I wouldn't have been open to his ideas. Is this keeping a secret? Of course it is a massive lack of communication! But once all of this came out, it 'felt' similar to finding out about his affair (not nearly as awful) ... but it was that sinking feeling of "why didn't you talk to me? why didn't you give me a chance by being honest with me?"
To me it certainly is especially if both of you knew that it was a big issue that needed both your inputs. If you are trying to decide on the color of curtains for the bathroom.....not so big deal.
I know that there were times in my marriage where I didn't make it safe to disagree with me or for my wife to share information, thoughts, or feelings without being met with criticism.
In other words, she didn't feel it was safe to talk and she was probably right. I think I have to take responsibility for those times.
At other times, she withheld important information that I needed to know ONLY because she was afraid I would react negatively. It's a fine line, but I think that choice was always on her.
From what you posted, either thing could have been happening in the case you're describing here.
Kara - a similar thing was my breaking point. Similar, in that my ex said all the right things TO me, but all the while silently had his own agenda. He wanted to "be friends" with an old flame from high school. When we split, he said, "You would have never allowed it..." I said, "Huh. Well, I guess we'll never know, will we?!" In hindsight, he was right - he cannot have JUST female friends - he married her.
Monica
"I have all I've waited for and I could not ask for more"
Thanks for your responses. Chris, I definately know that there were times when he was concerned that I would react negatively. It was a ridiculous circle that we kept going around. An issue would come up ... it would be discussed (without any conflict) ... we would both walk away with a 'role' in our decision ... I would eventually ask if he had done anything with it and was met with a bunch of excuses ... my impatience starts to bubble ... we reach the eleventh hour and then I hear what he really felt. These issues may have been big or small - but it was always when we both had to step up to the plate. He was convinced that I would have been pissed off if he had been honest from the get-go ... I insisted that he never did that so it wasn't fair to assume how my initial reaction would have been.
On the other hand (for issues of lesser importance) there were times when I could be very dismissive ... and I take responsibility for that.
These bigger issues didn't happen often (the most recent one dealt with a family trip) ... but they did require both of us to form a united front. I was concerned shortly after d-day that if he didn't communicate his feelings honestly to me ... that down the road he was capable of another 'something' that could destroy our marriage (in the same way that his affair did).
Another thing that bugs me ... he is a person who needs to be pushed into a corner in order to act on something. Not just things that dealt with us ... with anything and anyone. I 'think' that during times that I was aggressive with him ... it was to push him into that corner so that he could be honest with me. It wasn't the right thing for me to do ... but it was the one and only thing I had ever seen to work with him in the past. Of course ... it didn't work.
Kara, I have found that FOR ME, it is very unfulfilling to be constantly pushing OR pulling and I just won't do that anymore.
I have found that it is far more fulfilling to create good conditions and then to hope for and nurture promising developments.
Of course, I am divorced and my kids are now 18 and 21 and I have learned that I don't "need" as much as I once thought.
I'm enjoying a much more content second life even though it has its moments. I can now figure out pretty quickly where those "moments" come from and it's usually internal. How lucky, since all I can control is how I behave and how I react! Unwiring the hot buttons is a learned skill.
Thanks Chris. I can not and will not get into a tug of war again. It is a non-negotiable as I go forward in my life. And yes - unwiring the hot buttons will be a learned skill ... and I have not mastered it yet! I'm guessing that it will be a work in progress for quite some time (especially as EXH and I move forward in our separation).
