I respectfully suggest another board is required...one entitled: "Wayward Spouses"...one in which WS...NOT FormerWS, but WS, may reach out and get help...

This board could be one in which no one may reply but FWS, so that the WS may be helped, or their spouses may be helped...

Also, it would NOT trigger others who are needing to be helped, specifically....BS, and FWS....

In view of recent postings, it makes sense that a new board would be in order...

What thinks you?

Respectfully, Cheri...

P.S. Methinks the Open Board should be just that...OPEN...to all requiring healing, but maybe WS should be on a separate board, rather than those of us who are betrayed and needing understanding and support to be shuffled off to another board because we are too "raw".

I know, from my own experience, that the Open Board has helped me the most, as I have needed to hear from FORMERWS, and to associate with the majority at HH (not too many ppl on the other boards)....but I do feel a bit shunned by so many ppl, including a lot of silent old timers, coming in to defend a WS....but not showing up, until this, for newbie BS...and then attacking those of us BS who are only reacting and questioning the fealty of the group.

????

Just a suggestion....Cheri

I know you have the best of intentions Cheri. This idea has been brought up before. The creator of this board, Robin, offered an excellent reason at the time as to why this was, in the long run, not a good idea. I hope someone can do a search and find her postings or recall what her well-thoughtout reasoning was. There was an extremely valid explanation as to why having a strictly WS or FWS board isn't a good idea.

>>P.S. Methinks the Open Board should be just that...OPEN...to all requiring healing, but maybe WS should be on a separate board, rather than those of us who are betrayed and needing understanding and support to be shuffled off to another board because we are too "raw".

This statement leads me to think there is a misunderstanding about the general suggestion that people who are too "raw" avoid the Open Board.

All of our boards require responsible posting. The Open Board is available to anyone who has an experience related to affairs and is either not involved in one or looking to exit an affair. The Open Board has always been that way. No matter what the reason, be it rawness, bitterness, a bad attitude, or just a rotten day we all need to avoid posting on the boards that elicit an inappropriate response from us.

We have boards other than the Open Board that are designed with an eye toward people in a certain 'place' in recovery.

For example, Healing was established to provide a board where the betrayed is safe from the triggers associated with posts from wayward spouses. Deeper was established to not only provide that protection, but also give betrayed spouses who are further into recovery a place that is 'safe' from the triggers associated with the raw pain of initial betrayal. These boards provide safe places for betrayed spouses who find it difficuilt to interact responsibly with wayward spouses.

Open is a place for people who can speak to wayward spouses without becoming angry, no matter what the point in recovery of the wayward spouse. Some people are fine with the interactions of Open, even from shortly after D-day. Others need some time before they are in control of their emotions and can post within policy requirements. Some seem to gain that much control.

One of the biggest issues that concerns me with a wayward only board is that every example that I know about where this has been tried has failed. The reason is that a wayward only board gravitates toward supporting affairs rather than ending them. That is not the purpose for this Forum. I have strong doubts that we could succeed where others have failed.

However, Ami, Helen and I have been some discussing this suggestion for the past few days. When we have something concrete to announce, we will do so.

TomJ

Cheri> ..but I do feel a bit shunned by so many ppl, including a lot of silent old timers, coming in to defend a WS....but not showing up, until this, for newbie BS...and then attacking those of us BS who are only reacting and questioning the fealty of the group.

Dear Cheri, I wondered weither I should answer your question without opening another can of worms.
I feel though I owe you an explaination.
As you read me you saw I never attacked Errol personally and made it a point to tell the good things I saw about him. I certainly didnt try to hurt his feelings and I do respect him like I owe respect to any human being.

Now, to answer the main question: what did drag me out of lurking, me being a former residential poster of The healing heart and why didnt I came to the rescue of the BS instead?

It's quite simple actually: the BS's , me being one of them, get unconditional love and support because they are the atrociously injured party. Hurt beyond understanding, losing their sanity in the aftermath of affairs.

For this like Tom and Ami said, there are two SAFE boards where they can vent, scream and heal together on a personal level.

The WS however are treated differently from day one less they enter the forum "OPen" with their tails stuck between their legs" as a matter of speech...the condemnation and guilt are very heavy and make it very difficult for them to be open if they feel threatened.

One scared away WS equals one lost marriage in my mind.

Now understand my situation is different for I am 5 years past D-day.
Though I was dumpted with 3 kids for the OW I am past this horrible pain and despair.

This enables me to see another point one in pain has an hard time to see:

Many marriages depend on the good will of lack thereof of the straying party. One BS could do all the right things, forgive verything and pour out their love and patience toward their WS and it still wouldnt/doesnt help (I've been there). If the Ws doesnt wake up it's all been for nought...like in my case.

I swore a few years ago an oath to myself, as I see it satan stole my family, I swore I wouldnt let him steal another one if I could prevent it.

So I came to the conclusion that we can support BS wholeheartedly and still miss the goal (help a WS out of the fog): saving the marriage and preventing yet another divorce and people hurt for life.

This results in another broken home, family and one BS left alone, suffering , ditched to fend for herself/himself and waste many years in healing their wounds.

Computing all these elements together made me think there is no HOPE for a marriage to heal and a family to be saved if we miss out on the chance of reaching out to a WS.

The WS becoming conscient of what made them stray is the key to their healing, becoming faithful again and devoted to heal the marriage.

I see no other hope to save a family less we "reach" the WS in need for answers.

This is a tricky thing as you imagine for it requires much patience, being non judgemental, having much understanding and being free of own pain to project unto that very person we are trying to help wake up.

My granny said you dont catch flies with vinegar (she beame 95 last week)

So to answer your question I can come out of the closet and support the BS (like I did in the past) and still sabotage your marriage and chance of healing it by forsaking/overlooking to help the WS.

Does it make sense Cheri?

Love and prayers,

Corine

Never spend time with people who don't respect you.
--Maori proverb

Corine - excellent post as always

Tom perhaps you could provide us with stats of how many WS's have actually joined open in the past few years. I am having alot of trouble coming up with names. David and Tim (I think) are all I can recall. (If you have something of the sort that is)

Creating a new board would create seperation and shun the WS even more I think. Plus we would not be able to learn from each other. AND two WS's does not a board make!

I guess I just don't get why its such a huge deal for raw BS's to post only in the two other forums unless they can control their emotions and post responsibly?



Kid

Kid:

When someone registers, there is not any distinction between WS and BS, so there are no computer managed statistics to draw from. Just as you, I have to mentally work through the names that I can remember...

RachelRose
David
Tim
Jason
Resilence
DesparateHousewife

Two others who's names I don't remember now..

One was a single woman who wanted to break off her relationship with the MM.

The other posted under a full name, I think she had a background in counseling.

That's what I'm remembering right now.

Edited to removed a non-sense quesition (due to 'duh' moment I was having) and to fix/clarify my statements.

Like Tom, Ami, Sun and others I don't believe an exclusive WS forum would work out.

Too many pitfalls and temptation to support affairs and encourage them by validation of same feelings when still in the fog...

One idea comes to mind: Moderators could pick/design a few "healed", balanced people with a little knowledge of affairs (from any side: BS of FWS) who could be helpful answering to those who truly seek answers.

Never spend time with people who don't respect you.
--Maori proverb

Kim wrote, "I guess I just don't get why its such a huge deal for raw BS's to post only in the two other forums unless they can control their emotions and post responsibly?"

This is somewhat of a sticky wicket. I know that once having knowledge of a forum where WS post it is extremely difficult for a BS not to read. Our curiosity gets the best of us. Reading will cause pain, then to be restricted will cause further pain. The other side is deciding who gets to post and who doesn't will be very difficult. It is a decision I for one do not want to make. Time alone does not always heal. So we would be offending members simply by not choosing them to post.

I want to respond also to Corine's desire to save marriages. I have that very same desire Corine. I can so relate to you on that level. We do differ in how to achieve that and whether or not scaring a WS has the end result of a lost marriage. I just don't see it as that cut and dry.

I have learned (which was the equivalent of banging my head against the wall repeatably) that you can not make a person, WS or BS, see what they don't wish to see, no matter how hard you try and no matter which method you use. Sometimes a 2x4 upside the head works, sometimes sweet gentle coaxing works, sometimes it is logic given with no emotion or compassion and unfortunately all too often nothing works. There is no set formula. It is so difficult to try and gently coax a WS (which I do believe a WS has the right to) through the process at a site that has raw traumatized BS's. I honestly am at a loss for an answer that would not cause either side duress

Ami

In regards to helping WS and inturn helping marriages...

We can also save marriages and help WS's and BS by working with BS's. Plan A, Plan B does work. It worked in my marriage and has worked in many others. There is also trying to help the BS control outbursts to provide a safe place for their WS to confide and in so doing we help the marriage. There is more, but you get my drift.

I just needed to get that out there.

Ami

One More Thing.

LOL. I am getting as Bad as Helen.

We do provide so much help and not just in supporting each other through the pain, but is saving marriages from both ends. This is not a hopeless place.

Your posts make most sense Ami and i guess we don't differ that much

I am well aware you cannot make anyone see anything they arent ready or willing to see.


That's why I mostly stick to ask questions, ask people to dive into themselves to find their own answers.

It is indeed not clear and cut as each person is unique and has a different background, education, baggage and own issues.

Each approach is different.
Empathy (even if thinking differently) is the key to relating and for others to open up. In order to achieve that one has to feel accepted, not rejected.

I think that resumes much of my approach: acceptance, leading to listening and trying to make sense of what happened for one person to stumble.

I feel people can't be honest with others less they learn to be true to themselves first.

Ami, you are doing a fantastic job.
Thank you for being there and be a guiding light under difficult circumstances.

Love,

Corine

Never spend time with people who don't respect you.
--Maori proverb

Ami,
I hear what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. I'd like to address a few points you made, coming from the "other side of the fence", if you will.

<< I know that once having knowledge of a forum where WS post it is extremely difficult for a BS not to read. Our curiosity gets the best of us. Reading will cause pain, then to be restricted will cause further pain. The other side is deciding who gets to post and who doesn't will be very difficult. It is a decision I for one do not want to make. Time alone does not always heal. So we would be offending members simply by not choosing them to post.>>

I have read, from the beginning, the healing board as well as Open. I needed to digest the absolute pain I had inflicted on my H, so as to help him in his healing and the healing of our M. There were times, however, when the self-loathing was at a peak, and I knew I could NOT read the healing board, because it would plummet me further into depression, which would cause further damage to my M, not help it....are you saying that BS can't exercise that same self control and simply choose to not read if they are going to experience massive triggers?? I don't understand this.

<<I want to respond also to Corine's desire to save marriages. I have that very same desire Corine. I can so relate to you on that level. We do differ in how to achieve that and whether or not scaring a WS has the end result of a lost marriage. I just don't see it as that cut and dry.>>

Again, this is struck a personal cord in me. In the first yr after DDay, my H and I were working desperately to put it back together. I was remorseful, I was trying to do everything I could to figure out how to help our M heal. Just because I was a Fws didn't mean that we were going to make it however, and we almost didn't....he was sleeping in another room at one point, and we were talking seperation because the damage done was just too severe.

I came to the Open board repeatedly and it was my lifeline. I received valuable input from more people than I can even remember or list, the most memorable right now being El, Helen, and Corine. The reason they were the most memorable is because they reached out with love, not a 2x4....sometimes El's love resembled a 2x4, but since her style of writing is so affectionate and caring, I knew where her advice came from, which was her loving heart.

There were days where I was getting advice from friends who'd never been thru this who said "geez, if he's can't get over it, then why don't you just move on?? What does he want, blood??" Of course they were clueless, but had good intentions...then I'd come to Open, and I'd hear again that I needed to tough it out and give him more validation, because his whole reality had been torn down.

AND I'd hear that I wasn't evil, that I was a good person who'd made a terrible mistake, many terrible mistakes, but that even if our M didn't make it that I COULD still be the good person God intended for me to be...that lifeline was so necessary, and I think my self esteem would've stayed in the dumpster if it wasn't for the love and acceptance of my personhood that I found on Open.

So short story long, it's not just having a "safe place"....it's about showing a FWS or a WS on the road to being a FWS that they actually CAN reform. And any kind of attacking completely negates that. I adore Corine's approach because it builds up a person after they've been torn down by their own actions. If it wasn't for her, I don't think I'd feel as good about myself as I do today. She (and others) gave me the building blocks to resurrect my self-esteem, and I'm a personal testement to that approach.

Hugs,
Sunflower

Now I'm the one crying sunflower, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you for comfirming my feeling love and acceptance make a difference in reaching out.
I feel one cannot truly reach out without unconditional love.

You have to be human, thus failable to grow and reach higher.
The bestest life lessons are the most expensives/painful ones.

I have no words to express my gratitude to you (((Sunflower)))

I feel an enormous compassion for FWS, seeing their pain, their anguish and self loathing: it breaks my heart because I see them as god sees them: His beloved children.

Even when we stumble god never cease to love and call us.
God doesnt think in terms of dirty words to design past deeds but I feel he sees his children as lost and he hurts with them.

He still sees his perfect child, made unique for a special purpose to fullfill and never stops calling them home so they can heal.

Each person has a "calling", the qualities needed to fullfill those calllings are given from above, according to the call.
In my case I was given a special deep love for people who stumbled; it results in simply a great need to reach out to them and walk a bit of their path with them.
My goal is helping them when possible to achieve wholeness and become who they were supposed to be in the first place.

I do that online and IRL but I suppose I should be cautious on those forums not to offend anyone who doesnt share my vision/POV.

Much love,

Corine

Never spend time with people who don't respect you.
--Maori proverb

(((Sunflower)))

Don't have time to respond right now, but I wanted to let you know I read this.

Ami

<<I do that online and IRL but I suppose I should be cautious on those forums not to offend anyone who doesnt share my vision/POV.>>

Oh please don't be cautious Corine. If it weren't for your lack of cautiousness in showing such compassion towards me, I'd be much less further along in my own personal recovery than I am. You're perfect (as far as I'm concerned) just the way you are.

I thought they were perfect examples of what we are trying to avoid in this therapeutic community, insofar as people looking for validation of cheating.....

I was pretty upset by their postings (as were many others), and I agree with Tom that I think a WS-only format will attract this type of poster, to the detriment of the whole forum.

Sunflower,

Boy you and Helen sure keep me hoppin.

Sunflower wrote: “are you saying that BS can't exercise that same self control and simply choose to not read if they are going to experience massive triggers?? I don't understand this.”
In a word, yes there are those BS that do not have the strength to battle the impulse to post to a WS they feel needs to hear some very important things.

Let's see how can I make you understand this?

It is in my mind not necessarily a right or wrong thing. Most BS’s are tortured by the question of How and Why their WS could do such a thing. We obsess about it constantly and though we would gladly pay any amount of money, heck I would have given my right arm to stop thinking about it for a mere 5 seconds, we can’t seem to make it go away. We crave understanding, yet understanding eludes us completely. Most of us read what ever we can get our hands on the first year. Read doesn’t exactly describe what we do, we absorb. I could write a book on the number of books, and articles, and websites I have read on infidelity. The biggest problem with trying to answer the question of how and why though, is the answer will never satisfy us.

On top of this insatiable, unanswerable question to why and how, many of us are unable to reach our spouses. I can tell you prior to my H “Getting it” I felt as if I existed in a sound proof vacuum. I could touch him, I could see him, but when I spoke to him or tried to get him to see how hurt I was, I found myself screaming and pounding on the walls of my sound proof room with not a sound being made. It was as if I was caught in one of those dreams where you try to run away but you can’t seem to get anywhere. So when a WS posts, we want to make them see, more than anything in the world we want to make them see. Granted there are those BS’s that are just lashing out, but I think the majority believe they are helping in some way.

I was admittedly a BS that did not have the self control not to read. There were many times that reading would effect me for days. I knew, not deep down, but right there on the surface that I should not be reading posts by foggy WS’s, but I read anyway. I was “perhaps” better at controlling what I wrote, but I am sure there are those WS’s at the time that would not agree with me. It was a long time ago.

I am amazed at El’s restraint at not reading the WS forum in her early days, she is a stronger woman than I. But I do feel that you staying away from the BS’s forums is different than us staying away from the WS forum. I would have difficulty reading anything that reminded me of something I should have not done. There is guilt associated with you reading the BS forums, there is no guilt for a BS to read WS posts, only that insatiable desire to understand.

You question me about this:
<<I want to respond also to Corine's desire to save marriages. I have that very same desire Corine. I can so relate to you on that level. We do differ in how to achieve that and whether or not scaring a WS has the end result of a lost marriage. I just don't see it as that cut and dry.>>

The short of your reply was this:
So short story long, it's not just having a "safe place"....it's about showing a FWS or a WS on the road to being a FWS that they actually CAN reform. And any kind of attacking completely negates that. I adore Corine's approach because it builds up a person after they've been torn down by their own actions. If it wasn't for her, I don't think I'd feel as good about myself as I do today. She (and others) gave me the building blocks to resurrect my self-esteem, and I'm a personal testement to that approach.

Sunflower I am so glad you got what you so needed and so deserved from El, Helen, and Corine. All 3 are woman I greatly admire. I admire you greatly also my dear. I have so much respect for WS who do “SEE” and in seeing they have the courage to face their BS’s pain, day in and day out. I am awed by what I know you had to endure. It is a lot easier to stay with a BS and not see their pain, than it is to see it, and validate it. Not to mention take the abuse most BS’s inflict on their WS. I am very, much aware of what you had to go through. I still cringe with guilt for the verbal knives I hurled at my H daily, sometimes for hours. Oh how I love the man for taking it.

I agree with you a WS that gets it does need encouragement as you received from those 3 great ladies. As bad as I was, I still found moments of sanity to let my H know I loved him and appreciated him putting up with my jekyl and hyde personality. I gave him tid bits of hope. I think a WS needs this even though many are able to tough it out and go on with helping their BS without outside support, as my husband did. Recovery is not an easy road.

The problem as I see it, is that either way we have people being hurt. As I told Helen, I simply don’t know what the answer is. All we can do is continually strive to maintain an uneasy balance.

Hugs,
Ami

Ami, you so eloquently put into words about many BS feeling almost COMPELLED or at least drawn, to read & respond to posts by WS. Your description was right on the money, IMHO. Thanks


How about "Resource For Change"...just brainstorming ideas....
It might clarify to new people that it's not "Open" to people looking for affair validation & would mesh with the forum description...

Blue said: "Ami, you so eloquently put into words about many BS feeling almost COMPELLED or at least drawn, to read & respond to posts by WS. Your description was right on the money, IMHO. Thanks"

Wow, this is EXACTLY how I feel, Ami!!!

Yes, thank you for putting into words what my aching heart feels.

Blue, I think that's a good name....for a new board....but, what the bleep do I know? lol

Cheri

FYI:

37 % of our traffic goes to the Open Board
33% goes to the Healing Board
13% goes to the Deeper Board
17% goes to the remaining boards (Single, Fun, Forum Issues)

Based on the statitics, slightly more people are reading posts on the BS only boards than Open. 

^^Bump^^

hi cheri, given this is a site about helping people get through A's i think your suggestion has some merit.

again it would have to have some caution, not a thread for WS to give excuses for their behaviour but maybe a thread where they can explain (so we all learn) and where they can get some feedback on what to do and not to do.

cheers
kath

Kath,

The open board is ment for the WS-FWS to post, learn, and heal. I am not sure of the membership status on HH but I think there are more BS than WS....

The object is to heal...the BS helping the WS and the WS helping the BS... it possible that we would loose the WS if they only posted on the board for the WS-FWS.

I thank God for the many FWS that post on open...I value their opinion, their help, their input on the open board...I wish some of the FWS who visit would post.

Sorry Pat, you're right.

DH

I just reread all the posts to Samantha...I found them to be full of concern for her and trying to help her...there were very few (3? out of 82 ) who posted a stronger message to Samantha and one was a FWS...but I didn't feel that anyone crossed the line and said hurtful things...Samantha has to find her way and you know the journey she has to travel...the A fog is clouding her thinking and she is aware of that...and she asked for help...I don't believe in flaming anyone...sometime a person may need a wake up call also know as a 2x 4, and that has happened both to the BS and the WS...and that is not the normal way in most cases.

I personally look forward to reading each and every post that the FWS posts on the open board...David brings a spiritual note..that helps me...Sunflower is a bright ray of sun in our mix...DH, you have a warm and loving nature.

DH, you have friends here who are BS and you know that they care about you, why would you assume that we will not try to help you..we CARE about you...You are a valued member of our community.


I would guess that if Carols H posted here...the members would be out in force to help him heal...I would hope that if my H ever learned to use a computer. and wanted to post, that he would also be treated fairly.

just my thoughts...

Pat

(Edited by Ami to get rid of all the excess space .)

DesperateHousewife72,

I suspect that you were upset by my posting. Let me assure you that I have nothing against the FWS posting on HH. I don't have a problem with a current WS who is truly trying to end the affair.

If you would like more explanation of my reaction, please e-mail me. I will be glad to explain in detail.

I certainly don't have anything agains FWS. I love my FWS.

Thanks,
Amelisa