I was recently emailing with a member on the subject of new WS’s and our reaction to them as a community. I also recently responded to Sunflowers questions about BS’s postings to new WS’s on forum issues. I have given the BS side as I see it and I would like to give equal time to the WS side as I see it. I will use some of the excerpts of that email I shared with one of our members, because it said what I wish to say here.

WS for the most part do not come to us as someone who gets it or even many times someone that is close. Many are conflicted and confused when they happen upon our board. They are thrilled to find somewhere they can find some validation and support. They are holding tight to their rationalization and justifications for infidelity because it is what has kept their head afloat since crossing that very first line. Letting go of those lifelines is not and easy process.

We would ask all the BS to look to their healing as a guide to how a WS heals, it is the same in the essence that they also go through stages. Would it have been fair of I or other more healed BS, or even a WS, to insist a BS achieve the healing instantly upon the discovery of the affair, a apology and promise to never do it again? Of course it wouldn’t. And we would moderate anyone who would push a BS to do so. Unfortunately Many BS’s do receive that attitude from their WS and it stalls their healing as a result. We are trying to give WS’s that same need to go through the process as we give the BS who post here. I know it is different but it is still the same.

Healing from infidelity no matter what side you fall on takes time and you must go through the stages. There are times I so wish I could impart the experience and knowledge I have obtained over my 4 years of healing to a new hurting BS, so that they would not have to suffer through the agony of healing. Healing is a roller coaster of emotions and stages characterized by progression and regression, it is the same for a WS as it is for the BS. We can not expect a WS to go from A to M while missing all the letters in between. They need to progress and regress just like the BS, because that is how they see that healing is possible. Sadly many can’t hake the truth. Beating them over the head will not make that happen.

When a foggy WS comes here and posts their justifications. We see nothing wrong with posting honestly about our feelings, but we must endeavor to keep our words in “I” statements. When we assume things about the WS or tell them they are doing this or that, we only invite defensiveness. The WS will then miss the good because they have become hurt and have the need to state their case and make us see. Then we end up with a board war, where no one wins. The WS feels threatened and leaves and the BS is sorry they left but feel if they can’t get it then they don’t be long here. In my mind that is a scenario where we all loose. I know it is easier said then done trying to post to a foggy WS in a manner that won’t invite their defensiveness, but it is an accomplishment worth striving for. In the end we help the BS and the WS by getting the WS on the right path. We feel very strongly we need WS input on this forum in all stages of their healing, even the foggiest of them.

We want the WS whether new or old to feel they have just as much a right to this board as the new or old BS. We fear that is not the way we are making them feel. We know that no matter what, both sides are going to hurt and both sides are going to trigger. We can not prevent that from happening.

As a moderators we need to realize that because BS and WS are posting on the same board there is most likely going to be upheaval from time to time. We have to work hard to keep our perspectives and treat everyone as fairly as we can.

We feel very strongly that infidelity recovery sites need WS input, foggy or former. If we try to protect the BS and give them only what they want, we cease to protect the WS and give them what they want. If we try to protect the WS and give them what they want, we cease to protect the BS and give them what they want. We try continually to strike a balance. Part of the answer is in allowing yourself to feel the pain even a foggy WS is in. Feeling their pain does not in anyway, shape, or form mean you condone their inappropiate behaviors, only that you can have compassion that pain does indeed exist. Admit ably that is earned pain, but still as one human being to another, and in the interest of all of our continued healing, seeing their pain will help. I see their pain, it helps me to cope with what they write and with what my husband did. It also helps me to write in a way that will hopfully steer them to a more realistic thought process about their affairs. The hope is that they will then begin to own it as their responsibility and remove the blame from others, particularly their spouse. None of us can change unless we own our behavior, lock, stock, and barrel. But we have to reach these conclusions on our own or it just won’t work.

Ami

Excellent as always Ami...fair and balanced!

Carol~

Thank you for your thoughtfullness Ami, and the desire to see the other side of the "coin", however reprehensible it is.

Much appreciated,
Sunflower

Sunflower,
It was not my intent to hurt you.
I Have edited the text, hopefully that helps.

(((HUGS)))
Ami

Ami,
You did not hurt me. What I did WAS reprehensible, and I won't pretend otherwise. I wasn't being sarcastic or ugly, and I'm very sorry if I didn't post clearly enough...I was trying to keep my post short and sweet for once. LOL Looks like it backfired! LOL

I knew the intention behind your post Ami, no worries....you have a good heart.

I think what's more important is that I've evolved into the person I am, and daily I'm more and more happy with who that person is...I hope that in my security I would have opportunity to help others like RR change and "wake up" as well...hopefully in the future.

Hugs,
Sunflower

I really don't have time to post all that is in my heart.

First Ami what you wrote as always... came right from my heart only it was brilliant.

Sunflower, you took the words out of my mouth!

What I wanted to respond FOR you... was at one time Sunflower was in a fog. I knew her then! HOWEVER, she has become a dear dear Sunflower to us all becaue of her willingness to LOOK at who she was and NOT like what she saw. I truly do believe that if she had NOT read the words ofthe betrayed she would not have become the incredible woman she is. It was her ability to see herself and make a choice to share her soul with us that makes all of us look at her with respect and love.

I read your response dearest Sunflower and decided I had to respond now before I dried my tears caused by the beautiful words written here by Ami, Sun and Carol.

Sunflower's response to Ami is EXACTLY who she is a beautiful beautiful Sunflower who grew in the garden of healing. However, without Ami's incredible words of understanding we won't be able to help each other grow. We really do need each other. It is the understanding on both sides of the fence that causes us to learn and grow.

I'll shut up now with this famous quote

"Yup what Ami said".

with more love than words can express.
El

To me, one of the true signs of the former wayward spouse being truly former is when they see and accept the seriousness of the affair.

A person can say that they recognize and accept it, but if it isn't backed up with action and behavior the betrayed can tell. Sunflower, I see that you truly have reached the point where you see it for what it was and fully accept that.

One the thing I find very interesting is that until that point is reached the wayward spouse denies themselves the benefit of receiving full forgiveness from those who they have offended.

If you don't acknowledge the wrong you have done, then you can't appreciate the forgiveness that you've received. Then in turn the offended is further injured, causing greater distress to the relationship. The cycle can be broken when the wayward spouse fully and truly accepts the offense they have committed. It sets in to motion something that is miraculous and amazing.

Thank you Sunflower for being a true "former".

OMG pick me up off the floor now...
I've never heard words like that from you, Tom. VERY sweet, thank you!!

El, you're a dear as always, and you know how much I love ya.

I love being able to help here when I feel like I can contribute something, truly I do, or I wouldn't keep coming back. I just don't know how much longer I want to carry the title "FWS", ya know?? At what point am I allowed to move on and just be "Jennifer" who has a husband and 3 kids and a lovely home and a wonderful life, with bumps in the past that have been dealt with, and a bright future in front of me?

It is something I've been struggling with lately. And I think what keeps bringing me back to continue posting is that 1) my H doesn't read but sparingly so this isn't a topic on the forefront of our M anymore and 2) that I see people like RR or DH and hope that I can say something to give hope or understanding.

Anyway, that's all for now, take care everyone.

Love and hugs,
Sunflower

>>>>" I just don't know how much longer I want to carry the title "FWS", ya know?? At what point am I allowed to move on and just be "Jennifer" who has a husband and 3 kids and a lovely home and a wonderful life, with bumps in the past that have been dealt with, and a bright future in front of me?"<<<<<<


Today, Sun...TODAY. FWS is not who you are nor does it define you...I can think of a hundred words I'd use to describe you and not once use FWS!

Ami,

Thank you for your wonderful post.



Sunflower,
I fully agree with El and Jane...you are so much more .

You know Sunflower I don't think of my H as a WS or a FWS anymore. Going further, I don't even see him as a man who had an affair. I see the man I love and admire.
The flip side is I no longer see myself as a BS. I had to let go of the BS definition B4 I could stop seeing my H as a WS. It may be that you need to see your husband as no longer a BS first. If you can do that then you can let go of viewing yourself as a WS of any kind.

It is not disrespectful to drop the label. It does not mean you know longer validate the pain you caused, or that you no longer own the behavior. At some point you have atoned, only you can make the decission if you are ready to let it go.

Ami

Do I make the decision, or do I ask him if he's also ready to make that decision or already has? Don't his feelings matter in it? I don't know how I feel about that, because as you so perceptively pointed out Ami, I haven't let go of that title for him yet...it feels like I don't have that "right". I gave him that title, he had no choice in it, shouldn't he make the decision if I've atoned? There's a difference between forgiving and deciding that the spouse has atoned.

I think that like all other aspects of healing that this is a process that is going to take time. You are in the beginning stages right now. I always feel that in reconciliation that it is important to discuss where you are and what you are thinking about with your spouse. It may trigger him, but it may be that he is also toying with the same ideas.

For a BS in order to drop our label we have to let go of the WS label. In the beginning that feels so much like letting them off the hook. And we fear that this will cause them to stop atoning and being sorry. I knew I wasn’t ready to drop the BS label until I was ready to stop equating everything with what had happened. If my H didn’t understand some aspect or nuance of an everyday situation, I would always connect it with the personality traits that allowed him to cheat. One day I sat in my IC offices and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I can think about problems of any kind and not equate them with the affair. On one had I had the affair. On the other hand I had life, they did not have to go together. Am I making sense? For you Sunflower I think it is the same. You have to first stop making everything about your need to atone. When you can do that you can let go.

As I said above it is a process and one you and your H should discuss and go through together. No matter what though at some point down the road you have to let it go whether he gets there or not. You can have compassion and understanding for his need to hold on to being a BS and why but that doesn’t mean you have to hold onto being a WS. This may be something that is in the future yet for you.

Another thing. My husband has not been able to drop the WS label. I wonder if he will ever be able to. He knows I no longer see him as one, nor I as a BS, but he hasn’t forgiven himself completely yet. It breaks my heart, but at the same time I understand his healing compass is not the same as mine.

Ami

Sunflower,

As one who has traveled a little farther down the recovery trail I'd like to share a couple of thoughts with you.

My wife's A many years ago was without a doubt the most difficult thing we've ever had to deal with, and yet I can honestly say that both of us are better people because of the changes we made and the process we endured together. It's been a long time since I thought of her as a WS...she is simply my wife and I love her. I have distant memories of the struggle and sometimes there is a brief flashback or trigger, but they only serve to remind me of how far we've come together, you know?

The only time I seriously consider those days of pain and difficulty is when I am writing here with the hope and intent of being helpful to someone who is trying to find their way through the aftermath of Dday...because I want them to know there is hope that life can be good again.

I guess what I am trying to say is that my wife stopped being a FWS the day I stopped being a "victim" and determined that we would get on with life together. I'm not sure when that was, it seems to me now that it was just a part of the process which took place about four years (more or less) after Dday. When we discuss anything about those days now it's just history and oddly enough it's almost as if we are talking about someone else's life. In fact, we were different people back then and I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at. Forgiveness and love have long since taken away the power and authority of the A. "It" can't hurt us anymore, so to me she isn't a FWS and I'm not a FBS. We are just Mike and Darlene, and life is good.

My thoughts about you Sunflower (based on everything I've seen you write) is that you are already there, forgiven and loved...you are just Jennifer with a husband and three kids and a future full of promise. So get on with it and live life girl, and have the best Thanksgiving ever. As I see it from my old timer's perspective (for what it's worth) you are pure, honest, and worthy of trust, and what more could anyone ask? Just be who you are now and let history stay in the past, 'cause life is for living today!

Thank you for the well-articulated profound postings, everyone....I will have to think and pray on this, and send my H here to read it and give me his feedback.

We're both bad still about dealing with uncomfortable topics, but are getting better. I'd love to say that this introspection should wait til after the holidays so there's less conflict (since we're doing really well right now), but I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do or not....

Thanks again,
Sunflower

^^Bump^^

Now, dear Ami, why did you bump this? Seriously considering forwarding this thread to H to see if he ever read it, and what his thoughts are on it. I never had the nerve before. Feeling more ready now.

Ah time, heals a lot of wounds.

ETA: OK, fwded to his email...we'll see what the reaction is since he's 800+ miles away at work right now.

Well he called me after reading the thread. Not what I was hoping to hear, but not a big surprise either. He's got a lot on his plate right now with his work (regular job and side job), and his dad being in the hospital. He doesn't feel comfortable going "back there" at the moment to address anything, because he's afraid of outside stresses interferring with his perspective on his own healing with the past. I appreciate his honesty.

He also said he has flashes still, but that they're brief. I think by flashes he means triggers. But we both agree we're happy with the direction our M is headed, and he would like to focus more on that than revisiting the past.

I'm a little saddened, but I'd rather be saddened by the truth and be hearing the truth than happy with him telling me what I want to hear and it not being what's really in his heart. We've gotten much better at communicating, even when what's being said isn't exactly what the other person is wanting to hear. Positive baby steps.

We'll revisit it in 6 months possibly. Please pray for our continued progress and healing. It's a long journey, and we're at the 4 1/2 year mark almost. I'm convinced we wouldn't be as far as we are without the grace of God in our M and healing.

Sun

r-edited to death because of the usuals typos lol...

Forgiving is understanding FWS arent bad persons, we're just all humans and we stumble due to a lack of tools on how to handle problems back then, just as BS lack tools to respond appropriately to problems who were (often long avoided and unconscious) before affairs...

In the end we all suffer a lack of tools we later aquire along the road.

Forgiving is understanding FWS didnt know how to make good and healthy choices. They are far from evil cause "not letting them off the hook easily" is just as evil...it's misunderstanding and false expectations.

Truths grow upon us on their own good time, accordingly with how much work we do to seek them.

When one understand how people who stumbled came to their poor choices one can only (after a while of healing) feel pity and empathy, especially when they start to "get it" because I do believe realizing and guilt are far worse than the pain one experience as being a "victim".

For FWS to recover a sense of self and being able to learn anew to function is the hardest thing. especially when an unforgiving (not undersatnading spouse) ignore how horrible they feel and how desesperate they are to regain some sense of self worth...

Their souls are burned...they have to find a new way from the ashes...it breaks my heart to see them struggle to find self respect. It's possible and very much to the advantage of the hurt spouse but in the end we have to realize we ALL suffer and perpetuating hateful behavior after one repents is ungodly and harsh to the point it kills the soul of the person in recovery...

We have to help people out of the fog but this cant be done without love and acceptance, guiding them gently and not with a 2X4.

This is what I recently wrote on another board about handling the past, names are changed for privacy reasons..

-------------------

It was then, then we didnt have the tools we have today and we have developped them because of a need, these (poor) tools arent lost. the marriage may stumble or dissapear or heal with or without you.
Today is different because we know now what we didnt learn back then.

Wanting to change the past is senseless. It's pointless.

B****, your hubby, you M****, you G****,me , my ex : we handled at a certain point a certain situation with the truths and tools we had back then!

We all did lack tools, the people who hurted us as well, not that they were 'instant mix monsters'...


they too lacked the tools to deal with the situation properly and empathically. They were lost with their own non told 'mind monsters"

At one time we were all lost in powerlessness, which is better said :Tools-less-ness and I think one thing I must help you understand today is:

Stop beating yourself for the tools you didnt posses back then, we acquire them along the path, and yes we all suffer some losses but mom nature makes sure we get tools not to repeat the same mistakes...sometimes with a different player/partner.

We cannot change what has been, we can change how we view it, okay it was a damn hard lesson but one for the better I assure you. I do mourn my innoncence back then but I assure you I wouldnt change a thing cause there would have been no place for me to become me and since I am my own best friend and best companion along for the ride I must love myself and developp myself first so I can handle others after I get peace with myself.

I have let go of the need to change the past. the past simply is.....

Very much like a burned house:
-Accept it happened
-Assess the damages
-Check what can be saved (read: worth saving)
-Rebuild together if worth it or alone in a better place if not.

but accept the fact that even with tools now, you cannot unburn it... Hugs.

------------------

Much love,

Corine

Never spend time with people who don't respect you.
--Maori proverb

We brought Frog out of hiding Awesome to see you post again Corine. I miss your wisdom!

Hope all is well with you.

Kid

Ami said:
<<It is obvious you need to express these things to your H and you need to have them validated. You are a graduate of Retrouvaille. Use the tools learned there. When he comes home, have a dialoguing written ready for him read. Take it from there.>>

Didn't get that far. He wanted to discuss tonight on the phone why it seems things have been uncomfortable between us for the past week or so.

I broke down, told him that yes, it was because of the hurt from his reaction to reading this thread, and he said he felt bullied into responding. I fail to see how asking someone to read a thread after waiting a YEAR is bullying, but that was his perspective, and perception is reality, so......

He has been thinking about it, and he is still hurt and not ready to totally leave the past in the past. I am hurt because of his response, but mad at myself for not being happy that we at least have the happy M we do, as long as the past doesn't come up. Being mad at myself has been coming out in all sorts of ugly ways here at home, where he isn't right now, but since he knows me so well he's picked up on it too.

It's nothing against ANYONE here, but the expectations I have get raised when I read others saying that I don't deserve anymore labels. I need to quit expecting more from my H than he is willing to give and be happy with what he HAS been able to give me. I should be thankful that he was even willing to take me back. Not trying to sound like a victim, that's the honest truth. A lot of men that have the amount of pride my H has would NOT have taken their W back. And I do feel accepted as long as the past stays in the past.

So......................
Thank you for trying to help guys. I need to seriously step back and get some breathing room, because I've been barely hanging on by a thread lately. I'm considering asking H if he minds if I get some IC sessions so I can vent to someone. If I don't find a healthy way to get this out I'm not going to be the best mommy I can be, let alone a good W.

I appreciate all the support here,
Sunflower

Oh Sun dear,

I am so sorry you and your H are hurting right now. Life is like that though, isn't it? Full of ebbs and flows, happy times and sad. Stresses build up, and they are difficult and painful to deal with at times.

I believe that no matter how good of a job of sharing our perspective of WS or BS, we can never understand 100% of what each other feels and thinks. We just can't. But we can accept that we are different people and respect and love each other for being different.

It is NOT easy being a parent, much less the parent of twin two year olds. Why, that alone would be enough to make the sanest mom feel nuts or ready to burst into tears at a moment's notice.

Please know that you are dealing with regular life stresses. Just do your best to work as a team. It does sound like a few refresher sessions of IC to help you deal with all the stress in your life would be a terrific idea for you.

Take care of yourself. We all want you to feel good about yourself.

Loads of hope-your-kids-take-lots-of-naps fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

Sun

I just want you to know that I think you have a lot of GUTS. I know that is not a pretty word, but it just seems more appropriate than "courage", stronger, more tenacious somehow.

I also want you to know that you and your family are in my prayers. I hope things get easier for you soon.

All the best.

JL