Please forgive me, the intent of this post is not to in any way offend or put anyone off side nor is it directed at any one person or group. I would only like to pull the reigns in just a little and ask you to take just a little time to refresh memories of what it is and why we are all here.
I am saddened to see posts which are in direct contrast to the vision and philosophy of the Chainsaw Carving Community.
Having said that I personally have great respect for the opinions of indivuduals whilst I may not always be sitting on the same bench as them nevertheless their opinion/s should be acknowledged and respected without being judgmental. We all have our own agendas as to why we do what we do whether it be for pleasure, company, the sense of belonging, financial or to feed egos.
This carving community is a wonderful resource for all carvers and in particular those who are just starting out and those, like myself, isolated from the group. Without the vision of the UCCG founders and the founders and ongoing maintenance professionals of this site we would certainly not be where we are today.
I see and hear the passion in various posts which are clearly directed to moving forward, however this passion is somehow being lost along the way and ends up spirilling down to three little words. ME - MYSELF & I. We are a COMMUNITY which, to function as such, must work collectively and co-operativelly to ensure that the communities art form is promoted and presented in a professional manner whilst being considerate and responsive to the diverse nature of its members.
Ah! I can here you say 'but it's impossible to please everyone', quite so, however to look at this negative and turn it into a positive through being responsive to the diversity and developing opportunities to address that diversity whilst excluding the 'ME - MYSELF & I' focus will translate into 'global continual improvement'. No group or community can stand still for a moment we must always be looking forward and assessing what has already been done to ensure growth.
Now lets support those who are willing to put their hands up and do the 'hard yards' to move us forward. And lets show the World what we can really do as a diverse community of talented artists.
Back to the Basics, Below I have borrowed from the UCCG its PURPOSE Statement and the Introduction on the Home Page. There are a number of words phrases which somehow may have been lost: Promote, Serve, Bridge, Co-Operative, Educational, Supports, Enhance, Enjoyment, Freely Sharing, Friendship, Mutual Benefit, Preserve, Teach, Upgrade, Opportunity.
ARTICLE II - PURPOSES
The purposes for which this Corporation has been organized are as follows:
The United Chainsaw Carvers Guild is an organization of chainsaw carvers with members in several countries worldwide. Our purpose is to promote the art of chainsaw carving and serve as an artistic reservoir for the cultural exchange of this art. It functions as a bridge for national and international cooperative programs and educational opportunities. It supports publications to enhance the enjoyment and skills of chainsaw carvers everywhere by freely sharing knowledge, experience and friendship for the mutual benefit of all.
HOME PAGE:http://www.chainsawsculptors.com/chainsaw/package.php
This site is an information site for all carvers. Explore our Index and have a learning experience in the chainsaw carving world. We are here to share, promote, preserve, teach and upgrade the art of Chainsaw Sculpting, and to be of service to those who carve, those who wish to carve, and the community. Visit our forum links and hear with other carvers around the world are discussing. We also provides Chainsaw Sculptors and many other Art Galleries that are self operating, you can upload and delete your own pictures free. Members can promote their Sculptures for sale or show. We also have Step by Steps chainsaw carving instructions and totem pole information for chainsaw sculpting. Members can also register free for any of our other available benefits. We feature an online Newsletter and offer online Chainsaw Carving and other art contests and polls. We also offer members a free Storefront to sell new and used tools in the Country Outpost. In your Gallery you well be able to list 600 word description of your name, e-email, phone number, address, price of your item or any information you feel you want to sell your sculptures.
Gabby I have to agree with you somewhat, in getting back to basics and people using positions and different venues for there own gain.
My feelings are the guild should be used for more then it is being used for at the moment. How ever I dont want anyone to think I am against the things it has done or plans to do. I support the guild and its members ,I feel there are some very strong influences and hard workers on the board of Directors.
As For the Guild and the chainsawsculptors.com ....they are two diferent things and should never be used in the same sentence. chainsawsculptors.com as far as I know has alot of information and milt and his wife do a good job and they reap the rewards of it and there hard work. If they volonteer work for the guild? Great but they are still two seperate things. I (chainsawsculpture.com and one of the origanators of this Guild) have never used it or my association with it to prospor from the guild is for the carvers.
the guild was created for the carvers and the carvers need to get involved and take back more control by nominating and voteing for the people they want to run it. However the people that are in control now are very good at what they do and in no way shape or form am I saying they dont belong there. just that if you dont like something you need to bring it to these people, that also means if you want to see something done you need to bring it too these people.if you dont agree with there decisions you have choices.
it is easy to sit back and point out all the wrongs but it is harder to stand up and do something about it , but thats how thing change for the better.
And Gabby you have to realise the "carving Family" is getting bigger and Clickier.....and a lot of people are jealous of what others might or might not have, and as in High school they make up rumors and hurtfull things to purposly streghten ther position in the group. You can call it what you want but it is there and everyone knows what I am talking about even the ones guilty of such things. But I feel the yellow forum or public is no place to take up these issues such as what is happening on the yellow forum. i dont know that an echo Rep. would aprove of there logo being posted as and avitar in this discussion going on there.(just my opinion)
but I think it shows how simple things get out of hand then nothing gets accomplished.
so as you said get back to basics.....But first you have to figure out what the goal is??
what do you want to accomplish??
as a family we dont all have to get along to get something done.
To put it straight Jamie http://www.chainsawsculptors.com/ has never profited from UCCG ever. If anything I know Chainsawsculptors.com has brought people to UCCG to join. We have over 425 members in our club and I am not sure how many UCCG has at the time but it is not half that, so go figure. Also Ann is not my wife. We are good friends and date. Also I have never reaped a reward monetary from our site as some may think. We give it all back whatever we made to members in contests and reinvest to build the site up. One time we used 400 dollars from Chainsawsculptors.com to go to Jim Madsens carving event in Lower Michigan and worked the whole time selling stuff and made the money back. We don't live off our site, I get two good pensions and do the site because I love working with carvers and working on the net plus carving. It's my main hobby. I been behind the curtains of the Guild for over 4 years and through at least that many presidents getting all the mail and sending it out to who should get it, updating the site, building the site, and also paying for the site. We set up the forums and spend many hours on this site. All for free, so we do not ever associate or use UCCG with our site either except to exchange links and I think they benefet more then we do. This is just to set the record straight so people don't think we use UCCG for our site promotion. We work our site as no profit to us and mainly to satisfy my love to work on the net and service to carvers.
Milt and Ann are true givers to the art form. I hope someday they do reap reward for all the time they have dedicated to chainsaw carving. I have my own way of remembering things.
Cindy's version...
Milt came along, not wanting to be part of the UCCG board, but to help behind the scenes. He initiated getting all the online stuff going for the guild. He tried to get more information on the web site, had lots of good ideas. The UCCG is a group of many opinions. It usually takes a bit of time to get any decisions made, with all the discussion and then the voting. Milt tried to implement a couple ideas he had onto the web site and as I remember was told that he was not to do anything until the board told him to. So, Milt did exactly as he was instructed.
But Milt had a lot of great ideas on ways to improve the web site and grew to have a lack of patience with all the time delay between idea and implementation. Milt wanted to let the carvers in on these ideas and when it became apparent that he could not freely share his ideas and information he started his own web site, where he could do things without all the politics. He has always been respectful of the guild and the guilds needs.
Milt's site is a wealth of information, the best out there for chainsaw carvers. This is a man that did not ask for any of the decision making part of the guild, just wanted to be a behind the scenes worker. In my opinion this is the plans he originally had for the guild website. At this point I believe he made a good decision. The Guild site has moved along with the pace of the guild, Milt's web site has moved along at the pace of Milt. They are both great sites and have moved along their own pathways.
If more people were like Milt and Ann, with their giving nature, not needing a pat on the back, we would see huge progress.
I do believe that the people that are currently on the board would like to see some more progress with this web site. This is all about change I suppose. The board has asked Ed Meyer, to help with these updates. From what I understand Milt and Ann are working with Ed to get things changed over.
I really appreciate people like Milt, Ann and Ed Meyer, People who are willing to take on large responsibilities out of the goodness of their hearts. Milt will always be known as the man that got the guild started on the internet, and will always be appreciated.
Milt this message is for you. I think it is a service for chainsaw carvers when you go out into the competitions and events to sell your stuff and not only that to let carvers know where to find you and all the free information you have to offer on your web site. I also have no problem with you making a profit on your site. I don't know a chainsaw carver alive that doesn't make a profit from his art work. I know it is not about the money for either you or Ann. Also, if Ihave this story completely wrong, I apologize. Like I said in the beginning, this is Cindy's version. Sometimes we all see the same thing in a different way.
You said it exactly like it was and is Cindy. I think you were around from day 1 and know this. The only reason I started my site was because I got frustrated at not being able to do anything on the site and if I did back then not everyone liked it and it was more a standstill then a go. This made me start Chainsawsculptors.com so I could implement my ideas of a way to help carvers and to enjoy my own hobbies as well. I think if everyone would have let me go UCCG would have been Chainsawsculptors.com and there would be no Chainsawsculptors.com today. It is very difficult to work and have a bunch of people in charge of one decision. They all had great ideas and most of their directions would have went someplace. It was just that everyone couldn't decide on which idea was best to choose from to go someplace and you were right again. I was told not to do anything to the site after we once published the newsletter on it and to let the board tell me what to do. We took it off and been doing whatever the board tells us since. Ann and I always thought having the newsletter online would be great and people could sign up for it and get off the mailing list and save the UCCG money in printing and mailing. Just our opinio9n years ago and now too.
You said it exactly like it was and is Cindy. I think you were around from day 1 and know this. The only reason I started my site was because I got frustrated at not being able to do anything on the UCCG site and if I did back then not everyone liked it and it was more a standstill then a go. This made me start Chainsawsculptors.com so I could implement my ideas of a way to help carvers and to enjoy my own hobbies as well. I think if everyone would have let me go UCCG would have been Chainsawsculptors.com and there would be no Chainsawsculptors.com today. It is very difficult to work and have a bunch of people in charge of one decision. They all had great ideas and most of their directions would have went someplace. It was just that everyone couldn't decide on which idea was best to choose from to go someplace and you were right again. I was told not to do anything to the site after we once published the newsletter on it and to let the board tell me what to do. We took it off and been doing whatever the board tells us since. Ann and I always thought having the newsletter online would be great and people could sign up for it and get off the mailing list and save the UCCG money in printing and mailing. Some would still want it mail but a lot not, make it an option to choose from. Just our opinion years ago and now too. Once I transfer everything over and am out from behind the lines I am thinking of running for board of directors. I always been with UCCG and I guess I will be a member when I go down under the ground.
Let me try to explain my thinking however wrong it may be.
the logos are similar ,the info is the same. many things are the same change the color and the logo, but they still look conected some how.
and the information, seems to only include a few instead of the masses.
its a little family choosing who they want to invite.
the guild is for all new and old no bias'
you should only have one officer from one organisation and not more.
and the guild needs and Identity of its OWN.
not a carbon copy with a diferent name.
And Milt I am not poking fingers at you I have no problem with you but the guild site looks way to much like yours and the name of your site is way to much like mine. I told you that when you started your site.
you basically told me to bad the name was available.
there was alot of other names available also and it still causes confusion.
but then again people like to mis-use the copy writed masters logo also.
some see it as a form of flatery ...I dont!
So as Gabby was saying Back to Basics
"What does this Guild have to offer every carver out there"?
hopefully something that isnt already posted on Milts site because they can get it there. www.chainsawsculptors.com
I don't think are logo's look at all alike. They are way different to me. The only resemblance is they are both round. I don't feel at all like we are carbon copies. I had about 5 people ask me so far what happen to my site and they thought it was Joe's and connected to the yellow forum as he had our link up there. I guess people can confuse themselves if they want to look at it that way. As far as my site name being to much like yours, I'd say yours looks to much like mine. I say this because I started my site with that name and all at once you come on like a wild warrior on me about me stating my site and my name like yours and on and on. Well I started mine first so I think your name is to much like mine. I guess like I told you before, we both had sort of the same idea and you got yours and I got mine. I have no problem with your site being sort of the same name. It don;t take no members from me. I can't see why your worried about it. I never knew you even had a site you were making when I picked out my name and was online before you. I'd say maybe you can find a new name if you think they are to close. Back to the basics I'd say is forget about how mad you are about my site doing good and started before yours and mellow out about it. I work a lot on my site and it deserves to be having a lot of traffic. I spend at least 6 hours a day on it. Also please tell me how it would be a conflict of interest for me to be on the board? Also if you read the last posts I am trying to let new blood in and do the site all over. You want the job? You seem interested all at once back into he UCCG, your site looks like you could build them one. Volunteer your time, I did, I think I have over a 1000 hours if not a lot more working on UCCG's site. You might have been one of the people who started UCCG but I kept it running through every president they ever had 24/7 365 days a year. I answer everyones letters need be when no one else is around and keep everyone happy as I could. Lot of people start things but I think it's the ones that stay on and keep things going are the backbone of an organization. Being what I been doing and all their site work for this many years and I know more about UCCG I think then most I have you tell me I'd be a conflict of interest to run for UCCG. Tell me why?
This message has been edited by yooper2 on Nov 26, 2007 4:58 AM
I had my site up before yours many years before infact.
that just goes to show what kind of person you are to out right lie in public.
I have no further need to talk to you or discuss this, I have a dendency to disconect from conversation and paople who lie.
that is all!!!
and say what you want this will be my last response period concider my an ex member also not interested in being associated with a group that would even alow you as a board member.
Sounds like about 4 years ago conversation. I guess your saying I copied you. Get a life. Sounds like your jealous again that I have a site that is making it great. Sorry but I think I deserve it after spending $6,000 dollars on my site and putting in thousands of hours. This is not about UCCG at all but your way to cut me and my site down because you think I am taking away from your site period. We've had this out before about this, your site and mine. It's like your saying I don't have the freedom to own a site with my name I have. Wow. Now you want to drag UCCG into it. Your boat, float it. It sounds like you want to run the internet too. Did I do something illegal, I never knew you even had a site when I picked out my name. I guess I got the sculptors and you got the sculptures, be happy don't cry. I think the bigger any site gets it helps us all out. Every site online.
cannot believe that the UCCG is letting this thread continue in the way it has, wow i am shocked and amazed...
Why would it be a conflict for Milt to run for the BOD and not for Jen? There are many people who have their own sites and or business' that are on the board? What a wonderfully mature topic this has turned into.
find the thread rather informational and in no way either sanction the postings or condone the language in it. This is a forum for the members and has no effect on me either way. I am old enough now, to just read and take everything with a grain of salt. As much as I have read on this forum and others and been involved in discussions, I am not bothered by this. Although I do think that we got off course from Gabby's original post.
I do not think that every time a member vents frustration we should shut them up or censor their opinions. Although in this case those that are participating could proofread and tactfully comment. The UCCG is NOT taking sides in this discussion or giving any credence to any postings or opinions. At least not me as a director for the UCCG.
In reference to Gabby's post. I feel the UCCG is making moves to improve the service and benefits to it's membership and we can use all the advice and opinions of the membership we can get. I would like to thank all those that do participate in their right to share their views constructively. Someone may have some good ideas that will set us aside from other guilds and help promote and professionalize the field of Chainsaw Carving and it's members. I only wish more participation of many members rather than just a few. Any suggestions or advice from our members will be greatly appreciated by me and I would think all UCCG directors. But I am only speaking for myself presently.
i, too, am old enough to know this goes on, but to let it go one where people are airing dirty laundry is FAR from what this forum is supposed to be, i thought it was a place to learn, not to bash one another on I was here first and you shouldn't use the guild and another in the same sentence, Gabby made a mistake in her original post about Milts site being one in the same of this one, so Milt automatically get's jumped on? I thought this guild was moving foward??? Am i sick of the spewing of crap? Yep I am, i have better things to do in my life and always thought this was a good place to come and learn but I see it's going to end up just another carving forum where about anything goes...Nope you aren't going to please anyone and yes, the guild needs to move forward, but condoning this kind of crap being spewed on a members forum just isn't moving foward at all.....how sad
Whats written at the top ain't necessarily what goes on.
In theory great ideas, in practice in the real world it dont happen.
Member participation is what makes a forum, a feeling that when you post other members respond, encourage and share ideas.
Some just copy what they see others do and 'Carve Lazy', the variety of all the different carvers inspires me to incorporate and expand on what inspires me.
Dare to be different!
One can be inspired by another artists work and copy or attempt to copy, at the end of the day an individual must develop their own style.
Resentment among some carvers run deep, tread on peoples toes and the bad taste just wont go away.
Its the same all over the world, there are good and bad people, no two people ever light a fire without disagreeing!
Is there an easy answer?
Chainsawskallywags.com....behave children or you will get no cake!
Karrie, I will be sure that this subject is brought up on the board forum. You make a good point, but I am not sure who the moderator is at this point. Ed and Jerry are the ones that have all the passwords and such. This weekend Ed is out of town and Jerry's computer is in the shop. I also think we need to put together a group that writes up under what circustances a post can be deleted. I will go search the web site right now to see if I can find anything in writing. It is very difficult to decide when a post should be deleted. If one of the people were to request the posts be deleted would definitely be a good time. But how do you decide which should go and which should stay? I do hope that for the most part the UCCG web site can be used for sharing information and kept positive.
What do the members want as far as censorship? I would love to hear your comments. But do realize, this is going to be one of those situations that everybody won't be happy.
Milt do people really realize what you have done????
December 3 2007, 12:38 PM
You were one the first to really offer the carving community any thing good.When I heard about your site, and the fact that I could get pictures posted, and be on a list of others carvers, world wide, that was awsome!!! I would say that you solely have contributed a large majority to chainsaw carving awareness. If you get alittle pay from all the work that you do, on your site, who cares. The world has many milionares who could care less. I see this constant barage of people hounding event organizers, and guild board members" oh , well how much do you profit". It's hard core bS Man! Some one needs to administer the information, and healthy existence of the chainsaw carving community, I wish you guys would make milions, and continue serving your people well( that would be us) ,you deserve to do well too. Free enterprise, and capitalism are for profit, all this non profit non sense people alwasy talk sucks the economy dry. I don't support wellfare, every body has capabilities, think there is a little too much of this wellfare state mentality in carving. Carving is a hard life, so get used to it, don't tell me that you can't go get a normal job, and really work for what you earn.If we were all hurting that much, I can assure you , most of us would not be making a living doing some thing as silly as chainsaw carving .Some people really need to get their butts kicked in the trenches, a while, so they realize when they should not cross the line. Why are people so concerned about exactly what every body makes form carving? Just make it, and be free! I've been badgered for not just freely and openly handing over booking info to some carvers. So you guys do need to make a profit, because if you can't feed yourselves, then you can't help us, right?
I am so terribly sorry for initiating such a diversion to my original post of a calling for this wonderful community of tallented artists to reflect on and take on board the original focus of BOTH (UCCG & www.chainsawsculptors.com) as quoted as SEPARATE entities. Reading back I should have been more specific. Although the Home Page was credited to www.chainsawsculptors.com and I admit the UCCG paragraph was not as clearly credited. My apologies.
The diversion path this thread took is exactly what I was referring to. For this exciting art form to move forward for the mutual benefit of all we must be a cohesive group which understands and actively puts into practice the base line basics as written into BOTH the UCCG and www.chainsawsculptors.com.
Having, hopefully cleared up the obvious missunderstanding of my orginal post. Referring to the digression, I firmly believe that the extraordinary contributions made by individuals to the growth and exposure of this art form is to be congratulated and each opinion respected. I for one do not and shall not take for granted such passion for the carving community, which only a very few individuals are able to put and sustain their selfless passion out there for the benefit of all. Words come cheap but action speaks a thousand words.
PARA FROM ORIGINAL POST:
Back to the Basics, Below I have borrowed from the UCCG its PURPOSE Statement and the Introduction on the Home Page. There are a number of words phrases which somehow may have been lost: Promote, Serve, Bridge, Co-Operative, Educational, Supports, Enhance, Enjoyment, Freely Sharing, Friendship, Mutual Benefit, Preserve, Teach, Upgrade, Opportunity.
I should have included after HOME PAGE - www.chainsawsculpturs.com my apologies Milt. Your site is a wonderful resource which activelly embraces and supports easy access/navigation to seperate entities which demonstrates the basics of promotion, serving, co-operative, support, enhance, freely sharing, friendship and all those positive aspects which we should all be striving to achieve.
This message has been edited by Granny-Gabs on Nov 26, 2007 8:24 PM
Misunderstandings can happen in cyber world quite easily ... and many of the carvers in cyber world have long histories ... some that taste a little bitter occasionally due to situstions past (or present) which is quite natural amongst a group of passionate, driven and creative souls.
Interesting post though LOL ... why censor it !!?
Every where I go (all over the world) I put people on to Milts site for various reasons. The name is really easy to remember so if it is during a conversation in passing at a show or something I dont have to write it down. From Milts site it is really easy to find links to all the forums internationally (all over the world) and both Guilds, a ususlly fairly up to date listing of events, and tons of pictures of lots of carvers work (including mine lol) amongst other things. Then I tell them about the Chainsaw Chix site ... but that is another story all together.
Anyway ... sure, there is always more for all of us to do to help promote and push our art form forward, and together in our many and varied formats, we are a very potent presence.
It's really sorta cool !!
So get involved. If you have any cool ideas with workable solutions to making them happen ... then present them to the board ... that's what they're there for.
Write informed stories for the newsletter, and generally help out where you can, maybe by encouraging members to get more involved by sending them personal emails or through interviewing them and writing stories about them ... thats what I have been doing for the Cutting Edge and the carvers like it ... and while you are at it you are creating a historical document as well. That's sorta cool too dont ya think.
Anyway ... hot isn't it. Too hot even to paint right now. Think I'll go and read in the shade ...
Take care ... Angie
Hi Angie, good to see you back home on Aussie soil. And yes it is hot up to mid 40's here last week and no water or rain.
I can tell you that if it wasn't for Milts site I certainly would not be enjoying the thrill of chainsaw carving. As you know chainsaw carvers are not as prolific here in Aust as they are in the Northern Hemisphere, thats probably why you are overseas for such long periods to soak up all that wonderful inspiration and comaraderie.
I have to admit that I'm totally addicted to Milts site and the 'yellow' and 'red' forums and would read pretty much every post. Having said that I've noticed some 'attitude' creaping into the posts and as I said it saddens me (only my opinion) to see such a wonderful site which Milt (and others) have built up for the benefit of the carving community being used in such a manner.
We all know it takes many kind hearted folk to make such a site work, and I addmit I don't really understand the behind the sceens organisation, time and cost of keeping something like this chugging along. You know, it only takes one not so nice event to bring disrepute to the carving community. Having said that I believe that we who choose to use this site and associated forums / guilds / organisations should afford the owners of the site some respect in regards to how the site is being used and also how they are publically portraying or painting a picture of the carving community to potential customers / organisations which may research chainsaw carving by reading material posted on the web.
Gosh I have rambled on again and have probably opened up another can of worms. Nevertheless I don't think this is too much to ask of grown up folk. Human nature being what it is sometimes needs a little prompt to take a trip back to the basics.
I hope to catch up with you at RW gee will have to travel 12,000 miles to catch up with a fellow Aussie. lol lol.
