I think you should start you own authticating business. I cannot thank you enough for all of the time and insight that you have shared with this board. It shows that you truly care about the collectors out there. I think all of us respect you and trust you. Heck...if you cannot trust a Major in the US Armed Forces...who can you trust!
Maybe sometime down the line you would consider going into business for yourself. I believe you would have a good number of collectors supporting you.
This is in response to some very nice e-mails I received on this subject. While I am working on my guide, in order to see more items, I am currently looking at baseball jerseys and writing letters of opinion on them at NO CHARGE. I only ask that folks do two things:
1. Contact me before they send anything. If I don't think I will be able to help you out, I'll let you know.
What kinds of things have you learned inspecting people's jerseys? How many people have sent you items they thought were genuine that you found to be fakes or have restorations? Any other lessons?
I get a couple of things out of this. As far as uniforms, I add to my data base of over 3000 uniforms. This lets me do trend analysis as far as who made uniforms for a particular club and who was the manufacturer. It also serves to establish a reference for what size a player wore and when that might have changed.
For the shirts I looked at outside of what I did for SCDA, the best examples were a 1973 Pete Rose road jersey and a 1961 Mickey Mantle home jersey.
The Rose looked very nice in the pictures I was sent. Upon examination, I could see and point out the buyer where the tagging had been altered and the name redone to the back.
The Mantle was a bit different..besides being the wrong size and manufacturer, someone had cut the tagging out of a pair of Mantle pants and sewn it to the shirt.
When I do a uniform, I provide the person with my hand written notes which include the references used for comparison. I formalize what I have found in a letter of opinion.
These efforts also permit me to refine my skills in imagery analysis, photographic interpretation and mensuration. Mensuration involves using an object of known size to evaluate something else such as sleeve length, number size, lettering, patches etc.. I am addressing these in my guide as well.
Chris Boyd here! It sounds like your research will help many down the road! If you ever need any more Astros help, you know where to go. I hope the 1971 Astros "Shooting Star" Stewart/Menke is doing well in your collection!
What Chris is refering to is a jersey I bought from him for own collection..and yes Chris, I still have it and think the world of it..the other part of Chris' post deals with the fact that he was willing to share informtion on his area of expertise..the Houstan Astros, as part of ny guide project.
Chris provided me with a very well done two page grouping of informtion on Astros informtion. For the record, if a person came to me with a question on an AStros uniform I could not answer, Chris would the person I would call..
As a 30-year veteran of this fine hobby of ours, I have become increasingly disenchanted over the past several years with some of our fellow collectors insisting on Certificates of Authenticity. This has led to an increase in COAs being issued from various parties ranging from authenticating services (and other so-called "experts") to dealers writing letters on items they sell.
The sad truth is that while most have good intent, it has created a myriad of problems. Many COAs I have received in recent years have glaring description errors or factual errors. It wasn't a question of the jersey being good, but rather an issue of the letter being worthless.
In nearly every major auction I have seen in the past three months, there is at least one item that has been misidentified by the hired authenticating service or the auction house staff. I am not talking about a disagreement of "opinions", but rather outright failure in "facts" such as identifying a WFL jersey as a USFL jersey, or a regular season NFL jersey listed as a "throwback" jersey. Some of this is simple stuff learned in Football Jersey Collecting 101.
Trying to be a good steward for the hobby, I will send polite emails to the auction houses whenever I see these types of errors. I am happy to report that for the most part, auction houses are receptive and willing to correct the mistakes if the proper evidence is presented. What concerns me is that if I am seeing these mistakes in the very small area of jersey collecting where I feel comfortable commenting, how many other errors are in each auction?
The really sad part in all of this is that once a jersey has been sold with the authenticating service's COA, it becomes "authentic". If the item is later sold by the Buyer, it is always deemed as being "good" because it has the "expert's" COA. Eventually, it may end up being presented to someone who knows the actual facts, but whose word will trump out? Will anyone listen to "Average Joe Collector" who is not well known but happens to be a specialist at collecting the team in question. Probably not.
My question has always been, "Why are you depending on a COA or using an authenticating service in the first place?" Personally, I don't depend on COAs as I will thoroughly research an item both before I purchase it and after receiving it. For the cost of a few inexpensive jerseys, any collector can put together an excellent reference library of old yearbooks, photos, videos, etc. to help identify items they collect.
Having said that, I will get off my high horse as some collectors do not have the time and/or the inclination to perform these activities. This brings me to the following proposal - Why don't we, the collectors, form our own authenticating service? Yes, us!
Nearly every collector I know specializes in collecting a particualr "niche" item, whether it is their favorite team, player, a certain era, a particular league, etc. Our service would be free other than the person submitting the item would pay the postage both ways. (It appears that Dave Grob, a member of this board, has already offered to look at baseball items under a similar plan.)
I am mainly a football collector and would like to put together a consortium of football collectors who have experience in collecting particular teams, leagues, etc. My belief is that no one individual can possibly no everything about everything, and it's quite obvious from the types of authenticating errors I see in various auctions. I have no doubts that many of you have forgotten more than most "experts" will ever know when it comes to that particular team/player/league that you collect. By combining our knowledge, we could provide a service that it is much better, more efficient, and a lot less expensive than any service currently available. Simply stated, it will be an authenticating service for collectors, by collectors!
Are there any football collectors out there ready to sign up? And is anyone out there willing to organize a simialr setup for other sports?
Hey, I'm with you on your thoughts about COAs. While you and I have that opinion, there are a number of folks in the hobby who live and die with what the authenticators, "experts", etc. have to say, and relying on that magical (although worthless in your eyes and mine) piece of paper.
Worse, once that authentic replica is turned into a "gamer" because Mr. Authenticator made a mistake (i.e., didn't do his homework), things become much more difficult down the road trying to turn the jersey back into what it really is, an authentic replica. Let's face it, authenticators are famous for being famous, and their word goes a lot further with many in the hobby (especially with less experienced collectors) than the word of guys who might actually know the real truth. Sad, but true.
I wish that everyone would trust their own instincts, do their own research, realize that authenticators can't possibly be all things to all people,and declare COAs to be contraband. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.
By orgainizing fellow hobby mates who have expertise in their specific niche, we can put together an authenticating service that can be much more accurate and user friendly (i.e., no fees or conflicts of interest). If it is done properly and a solid reputation is built, there would be little use for anyone to use the pay services.
Letters do have some value, but not in the current state that most are written. When they only include phrases such as "fully inspected" or "all correct tagging" without providing any details..they are worthless.
A good letter will let the person know something about the process invloved..what was looked at and how..it should state what references were used for comparision. These references can be pictures or other uniforms, but should be stated so the person can see for themselves.
"All Correct Tagging" is a cop out..All Correct compared to what? The person writing the letter needs to show at least three things in this respect:
1. The manufacturer in question actaully provided uniforms for the team in question during the period in question.
2. The tagging is proper and complete for that manufacturer during that period. For baseball uniforms, this also includes laundry instruction tagging.
3. The team tagging is also an issue. This referers to player identification, size, and or set # in many cases. Not just by location but how it is applied to the uniform.
Once again, you need to be able to provide a reference for comparision, or how else do you know what right should look like.
Many of today's products look very nice..good quality paper, nice color image, but little or no information other than a description of the jersey.
I am all for letters, free or paid for, as long as they are written with this premise in mind.."don't just take my word for it..here's how you can see this for yourself..."
Based on some recent events, e-mails and phone calls, I am giving this some serious thought. In all likelyhood, I would contact some of the auction houses and offer my services only for baseball uniforms.
It would have to be understood that:
1. I am not a dealer and will not consign any item to any auction house while I am working in this capacity.
2. That all letters I produce will include my working notes and a final letter of opinion in which all referecnes used will be stated.
3. That I would have to be provided with a list of items to be looked at at least two weeks in advance of the trip so I can do advanced research and gather references.
4. Fees for services will have nothing to do with the value or price of the item in question.
5. If the auction house has retained another individual or service to look at the same item, I do not want to know what there opinion was before I do my work.
Would be curious on what your thoughts would be on this issue..
Dave,
I don't want to gush too much, but once again your integrity shines.
The points that you made for working with an auction house are exactly what an "authenticator" should be working under. Our hobby took a terrible turn when the authenticators started running auctions.
I am not against anyone making money, but there is a definite conflict of interest when the person authenticating is also the person profiting from the sale. I personally don't understand authentication fees being tied to value. In my opinion there should be a set per hour fee. Some jersey's would be easy but others I'm sure would take great amounts of time. A person should be paid for their expertise and their time.
I can say this, I have basically dropped out of the jersey hobby for several reasons, the biggest being that I have become tired of all the bad stuff with "rock solid" letters. I came to the place where it just wasn't fun at all, I went back to the things that I was sure of so that I wouldn't have to deal with the people I didn't trust. If Dave started working in this fashion I would return to the jersey part of collecting. I trust his opinion, but much more than that I trust his integrity and know that if he wasn't sure if he could autheticate something he would tell me that up front. I'm tired of people pretending that they know everything about everything.
Dave, thanks for your time and your input, if this is a venture you decide to take, some auction houses will get a customer back in me.
Thank you for the kind words and vote of confidence. I would also like folks to know they are free to ask about my background and what I would consider my qualifications to work in this capacity.
There are a couple of issues here:
1. Does this person know enough to be able to make an informed opinion?
2. Does this person work from a process that is easy to understand and is consistent?
3. Are there any competing interests that may effect their objectivity?
Once again, thanks and regardless of whether or not I end up doing this, I hope the hobby becomes fun for you again..
Would I like to look at it..Of course, who wouldn't..Could I offer an opinion? NO..I have nothing in my data base to serve as the basis for any comparision nore have I have even actually seen one up close and in person..
Mark,
Great idea......A member of this forum recently put pictures of a Rawlings 'Jets' jersey up on the board and Barry Meisel and I were able to offer our critique. I am a die-hard Jets fan (40 years a fan and 25 years a season ticket holder) and long time collector. I have an extensive library of video and paper reference materials. I learned a long time ago from people like Duke Hott that the best approach to avoiding the garbage out there is to get educated. I'm not going to say that I know every team in the NFL, but we could probably assemble a collection of hobbyists who each had deep knowldege of one or more teams....we could blow away any 'authenticator' and not be concerned about these 'authenticators' doing their back room deals. Ten years ago I met with the owner of one of the major auction houses. We did a deal that included a team issue Junior Seau throwback jersey that I had gotten from the asst equipment manager during a business trip to san diego. The auction house owner told me that he planned to write a letter that included 'game used' and throw it in his auction. When I looked at him quizically, he said, "It's not only about the piece, but also about the business relationship". Those words really stuck....Arrogance like this would not exist if people took the time to know what they are buying...
