This a great new site. I have been scanning it for hours. Unfortuantely, it seems that the negative information outweighs the positive 3 to 1. Where has the hobby gone??? Will it still be around in 5, 10, 15, 25 years?
It look slike this is the place to get info from other collectors, dealers etc. Defianitely a great place to talk shop.
I might have to limit my use of the site so I can keep a poitive outlook on the hobby.
I think the industry has gotten better on the upper end products. Maybe it was the FBI Operation Bullpen that got rid of a lot of bad dealers. I think eBay has done a better job of policing their site although you can't catch everything. Also, many athletes surf the net and report "fake" items. MLB has probably done the best job with their authentication system.
The industry has some great authenticators. We always feel confident buying and selling bats authenticated by John Taube of PSA/DNA or jerseys authenticated by Dave Bushing with the SCD or GAI CoA, and Autographs from Mike Gutierrez or James Spence. TriStar, Steiner, UDA, Mounted Memories of course are great also with autographed items.
I understand that 3rd party authentication is expensive so a lot of dealers don't go that route, but personally I can't understand how buyers are spending thousands of dollars on items that the dealers are authenticating themselves. Maybe it works on inexpensive items, but this is where all the problems seem to be coming from on this site.
My solution is to buy from reputable dealers only. If you continue to buy from the "problem" dealers you are just keeping them in business.
I agree... this is a great site with lots of good, knowledgeable people it seems. Can't wait to get into some more discussion (hopefully more about legit items rather than bad ones!).
My question is this - why would any serious collector depend on a COA or pay an expert authenticator or anyone else to authenticate an item? I don't know about any of you, but if I am about to invest a large sum of money on an item, the only person I trust is myself!
There are a lot of collectors in the hobby who specialize in certain teams, leagues, etc. who will help you for free. If you ask around, you will eventually discover these various folks.
Why do any of you think that an "expert authenticator" knows any more than anyone else, especially a legitimate dealer? Sure, it can be seen as a conflict of interest when a dealer authenticates his own items. But on the other hand, if a dealer such as MeiGray buys dierctly from a team, who else is more logical to provide the COA?
For that matter, most dealers who are worth their salt and have been in business for a number of years (Hartel Sports, Murf Denny, Ball Park Heroes, Jim's Jerseys, etc.) have most likely seen many more items and a wider variety than most expert authenticators will ever see. Keep in mind that these dealers have easily owned thousands and thousands of jerseys, and have probably seen many more in their business dealings.
Some of the collectors out there need to quit buying into the hype about authenticators and the need for COAs. Have you ever stopped to think what makes them experts? Self-promoting can go a long way in that regard.
Some of us who have been around for a real long time know the real truth. We see it in nearly every auction - the mistakes that are made by either a lack of research or simply not tapping into the various resources that are available. They want you to think that they are all-knowing. If you believe that, then I have some prime beachfront property in the Everglades to sell you.
Why isn't every serious collector taking advantage of the resources available? With all of the information at your fingertips on the internet; the ability to build a reference library (old yearbooks, magazines, photos, videos, etc.) for the cost of a couple of jerseys; and the knowledge of your fellow collectors and dealers who are usually more than willing to share information; there is really not much of a reason not to do your own "authenticating". Besides, if you tend to collect particular teams, eras, leagues, etc., you end up knowing as much or more than anyone else over the course of time. There are a number of collectors who need to quit selling themselves short and depending on others to tell them what they probably already know.
Like I said, if I can't substantiate the legitimacy of an item on my own (through researching reference sources or asking others knowledgeable in that particular area), I simply won't buy it.
But I still ask this question - why would any serious and experienced collector need a COA in the first place?
I think the reasons why folks are focused on LOAs is money and time. For folks with more money than time, they are willing to pay to be more comfortable. I know many collectors with large collections who actually know very little about what they have, other than what somone has told them. The seem focused or driven by the hunt or need to acquire...once they have the item, it's time to find something else. They also labor under the impression that they will need this 3rd party documentation when it comes to move the item.
Most of the letters today are written in support of the auction market vs retail submissions..that is part of the process and the nature of auctions. Some serious and educated collectors obtain letters for insurance purposes, but I would say that % is very small.
I like what you said in a previous post about building a libray. I had a post to that effect a while back. I always make this point when folks ask me about collecting..It is very surprising that folks will not spend a few hundred $ to ensure that the thousands they spend are spent wisely. Many folks also seem to truely lack a focus on what they collect..this makes it difficult to focus on what makes for good referecne informtion.
The other reason folks pay for opinions is that they lack the process or understanding on how to evaulate those items..in a nut shell, what to look for and how to look at it. I am working on a guide to this end right now and am about 90% with the first draft..This only applies to baseball uniforms..
Great points from both of you... for me, the proof that a jersey is authentic is in the jersey itself, not a piece of paper. Team LOA's and MeiGray LOA's are one thing, but a 3rd party LOA has little to no value in my mind without my own research to back it up. In some cases, I'll get turned off of an item because it has a particular 3rd party LOA, just because I know that they've 'authenticated' blatantly non-authentic items.
Personally, I am NOT one of those people with more money than time (actually it's probably the other way around LOL), so I would rather research for x hours on this vast resource called the internet before potentially acquiring a jersey. Unfortunately, in today's market, I take the perspective that a jersey is fake until it is proven legitimate; I may end up passing on a legit jersey but I'd rather have something in my collection that I know is the real deal.
Besides, there are certainly a fair share of 'self-appointed expert authenticators' around, and an extreme conflict of interest that exists (not just in authenticating their own items)... if I send an item to get authenticated, and it comes back as good, then I'm happy and chances are I will eagerly come back for more business. However, if the item gets rejected, chances are that I just got ripped off by buying this fake jersey and maybe turned off of buying another. 'Authenticators', by nature, make money by seeing more product... and you don't get to see more product unless the customer has had positive experiences with you (and that usually isn't the case when a jersey comes back as bogus). However, that's not to say that all 'authenticators' are bad and that they don't have a place in the hobby/business. Like many things in life, there are always exceptions.
At the end of the day however, even if I have more money than time, I would still want to do my own research rather than let someone else 'allegedly' do it for me. Jaded? Maybe. But I'd rather have a very select collection rather than a room full of junk.
The only point I would like to address is what happens when an authenticator says no to an item..It is not always bad for good business..I have worked in this field and have some first hand experience..By that I mean the person who has bought an item and sends it in is usually very happy as they now have some basis to ask for a refund..They have a bit more knowledge and are not stuck with a bad piece..
The folks who scream are usually those who bought something with the purpose of selling it right away for a quick profit..They usually underpaid someone for the item, thinking they knew what they had and the other guy did not. This individual was looking to have somone else substantiate his winfall..Now that he is told that he bought something bad..he is in a tough spot.
1.It is hard for him (the expert) to go back to the person who knew little and demand a refund because he did not know what he was buying.
2. He nows he will not be able to get a letter on anything he wants just because he sends it in.
The business the authenticator has lost out on is business he does not want or need.
If you are looking to authenticate a bat, it's almost impossible to do on your own now because Dave Bushing is just about the only person with access to the H&B PBORs. As someone else mentioned, it's a time issue with many people, so finding a reliable authenticator is cost effective.
Jay
I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
I am mainly a football collector, and know enough about bats to be dangerous! For my own education, please tell me more about the H&B PBORs and the reasons that no one else can authenticate without this information.
What Jay is refering to are the shipping records from Hillerich & Bradsby (Louisville) Slugger. They are ledger sheets that were used to record what bats were ordered by the player. These entries show:
Player
Date
Length and Weight
Model #
Finish
Special Markings
Quantity Shipped
Dave Bushing has the largets single holding of these..Some of the other bat authenticators have some of this informtion as well for select players.
The information is wonderful from a research perspective..Have always thought this would be great information for the Giamitti Research Library at Cooperstown. There was a time (actually not that long ago), that you could write a Mr. Rex Bradley at Louisville Slugger and ask questions..He has since retired.
If you have this information, it answers the majority of the tough bat questions leaving only use to be evaluated along with provinance.
Dave usually travels with these when he does shows. He is very good about telling folks about what a player may have ordered and when.
This is just one of the things that I think makes bats easier to authenticate than uniforms..there really are no such consolidated records like this for uniforms..
Many folks will begrudge Dave for having this information, but when you think about it..it had been there for years and no one really bothered to recognize its value for what it was...He had the foresight to see it for what it was. Dave and the other bat guys who have this information make their living in this field, and it is understandable (folks may not like it), why they keep it rather close hold.
I've been meaning to post a response to your general stance on LOAs for some time. While I respect your passion on the subject and agree with a lot of what you state, I respectfully believe you have painted too broad a brush.
ALL LOAS ARE NOT ALIKE. YOU HAVE TO READ THEM FIRST TO ASCERTAIN THEIR VALUE.
While I totally agree that third party authenticators who offer "opinions" might not carry weight, and often make mistakes, and sometimes do less research than a collector can do by opening up a yearbook, all LOAS are not alike.
MeiGray purchases 99 percent of its jerseys direct from the teams. We have sold more than 23,000 jerseys since 1997: Direct from the NFL's NY Giants and Philadelphia Eagles, direct from MLB's Texas Rangers, direct from the NBA's Dallas Mavericks, direct from the 22 teams in the National Hockey League-MeiGray Game-Worn Jersey Authentication Program, direct from all 30 teams in the ECHL-MeiGray Game-Worn Jersey Program, direct from the AHL's Hartford Wolf Pack, Binghamton Senators, Albany River Rats, Syracuse Crunch.
A team-direct LOA from MeiGray means we have signed a contract with the team, required them to state in writing, under legal penalties, that the items they are selling are game worn, that we now take legal title, and that we are permitted to pass legal title onto our customers.
Our LOAs are warranties. Are we perfect? Of course not. Have a handful of the 23,000 jerseys been mistakenly logged as game-worn when they were game-issued, or when a player didn't play in the jersey, and we listed it by mistake?
Of course. And in every case, whether it was two weeks or five years, we quickly refunded the collector's money and sometimes gave him additional credit if the error hurt him in any way (like if he traded the jersey and incurred expenses in having to undo that deal).
Our LOAs are warranties because we state where we got the jersey, why we know it is game-worn, when it was game-worn. And we guarantee THOSE FACTS for life.
We partner with the NHL in the NHL-MeiGray Game-Worn Jersey Authentication Program. We place counterfeit proof, covert/overt security tags in every jersey BEFORE THE PLAYERS HIT THE ICE. MGG AND NHL reps make regular spot checks, to ensure the proper jerseys are being used.
We scan thousands of photos, hundreds of game tapes, to watch that the jerseys photo- and video-match.
In the Stanley Cup Finals, I personally sit in the locker room after games, and have the jerseys handed to me by the equipment manager after the playoffs take them off. I check off the NHL-MGG security tag numbers and throw the jerseys into the washing machine.
And then I check them when they are hanging before the next game. We put our info and guarantees in writing, for every jersey sold for the program.
I sign the letter. An NHL executive signs the letter.
That is how MeiGray defines a reliable letter of authenticity.
You hit the proverbial nail on the head in stating that not all LOAs are alike. That is precisely part of the problem, along with some authenticators migrating into areas where it is obvious that they have little or no expertise.
There are no "industry standards" for authenticating and issuing LOAs, so they become worth about 2 cents at Kinkos as someone else (Splinters, I believe) in this forum said. Or to steal a line from another collector, it's nothing but goofy science!
Probably like many other collectors, I have a drawer full of LOAs that were issued (unsolicited by me) on items I have obtained over the years. It's amazing how many of these LOAs are incorrect in describing the item, or contain typos or other mistakes that make the LOA worth even less than the two-cent special down at Kinkos!
While I rail against COAs/LOAs/Authenitcating Services, I have stated in many a discussion with others on this subject that MeiGray does it the right way. My brief reference to MeiGray in my last post was meant to be a positive plug for you. Due to your unique arrangements with teams and leagues, you are able to put together "paperwork" that most others in the business are unable to match. Your LOAs and integrity are not an issue here.
You are about the last person in the world that collectors need a LOA from as your reputation, integrity, and professionalism has easily won your trust in the hobby, not to mention your business arrangements with the teams/leagues gives collectors confidence in your items. Your LOA is just icing on the cake in my opinion.
I paint a broad brush about LOAs because in my 30 years in this hobby, I have seen just about every possible scenario when it comes to LOAs and authenticating service. While there are folks like you and authenticators like Dave Grob who are doing it the right way, there are way too many mistakes, errors, oversights, incompetence, etc. There are no doubt a few charlatans out there as well, not to mention those with bad intent on their mind.
As I previously stated in a different thread, if I am continually observing mistakes in almost every auction in just the small areas of collecting where I feel comfortable commenting, I wonder how many other foul-ups are in each auction.
I don't think that I am alone in this assessment. It's caveat emptor in this hobby, like it or not. And if that's the case, then folks are playing Russian Roulette if they are depending on LOAs and not doing their own homework to become an "expert" in the items they collect.
