Here is the LOA I provided for the jersey that was issued by myself with the consignment of the Bart Starr jersey.
Also, the Authenticator Interest check box means I do have a financial interest in the piece.
The post here is regarding the "preview" of the Bart Starr jersey featured in the Vintage Authentics website. Per my consignment agreement with Steve Jensen, the following letter below was to be posted with the jersey. I have spoken with Steve Jensen and the website portion of the auction is not completed yet and will not be launching until next week. This letter will be included with the internet portion of the auction along with Lou Lampsons worksheet. Steve Jensen also told me that the description currently listed was a preview and my personal notes had not been included as of today. His internet specialist listed items that were considered "featured" items today on the internet.
Finally, please read the SCDA letter in its entirety. Our definition of game use, which is clearly posted on the top portion of the back of the letter, defines game use as: General categorization of an item manufactured, marked, or tagged for the purpose of exclusive use by major league player or team only. Not intended for sale or use by the general public. Use can be objectively annotated and subjectively qualified and any such item will be considered game used if the item was "Locker Ready", or used in the following game situations: pre season, batting practice, regular season, playoffs, championships, or exhibition. When use is evident but the but the specific event or contest is unknown, the item will be deemed Game Used.
Additionally, a worksheet detailing the evaluation of how the jersey was authenticated will also be posted, which is something Vintage Authentics will be doing on most lots in this auction.
The jersey was sold with a box. The origial seller thought the jersey had no use. Lou Lampson thought otherwise. This is all to be disclosed and the potential bidders should feel free to ask many questions regarding the condition of this jersey.
January 12th, 2005
RE: Bart Starr Green Bay Packers home Jersey
This lot features a Bart Starr mid 1960s Green Bay Packers home durene jersey. Vintage forest green, lightweight durene jersey with full sleeves and embedded elbow padding. The lower left tail has the early-mid 1960s “SAND KNIT” label designating size 46. The front and back numerals feature “diamond point 5’s”, and the sleeve numerals feature “flat topped 1’s. Sourced from a Milwaukee, Wisconsin bar owned by Ray Jackson. After a game played in Milwaukee, Bart Starr personally brought this jersey to the restaurant in the original Sand Knit shipping box. Consigned to Vintage Authentics with the above facts. Purchased by myself via an internet auction by The Card & Coin Corner and Packer City Antiques.
Hobby experts up to the time of sale had never inspected the jersey. Since it was stored in the original Sand Knit box, it was originally assumed the jersey to have been unused. For this auction, Lou Lampson carefully inspected the jersey and concluded that it showed light wear. The wear was consistent with other QB jerseys examined from the period. Interested buyers should inquire regarding use with either Steve Jensen or Lou Lampson. Dave Bushing nor myself have rendered an opinion regarding the use.
(This letter to be included with SCDA letter)
Sincerely,
Troy R. Kinunen
So in Review
1. My Letter stated the jersey came in the original Sand Knit Box and the letter will be posted via the website
2. The catalog will reflect the fact that the jersey came with the original box.
3. The catalog and internet states the jersey shows lite wear in Lou Lampsons opinion and is consistent with the 100's of other jerseys he has authenticated.
4. After reading my letter, the catalog, and the internet description, please call Vintage Authentics with any other questions or ask for an inspection of this jersey.
You claim "after a game played in Milwaukee, Bart Starr personally brought this jersey to the restaurant in the original Sand Knit shipping box".
Yes, I'm sure Bart Starr rushed this over to a restaurant after a game in the original box. This is probably the funniest thing I have ever heard in my life. You are a complete FRAUD and embarrassment to the entire hobby.
First, thanks for posting on the site and trying to clear this up.
I had a question about SCDA. If I'm understanding what you wrote, there are some issues here. In your letter you wrote
"Our definition of game use, which is clearly posted on the top portion of the back of the letter, defines game use as: General categorization of an item manufactured, marked, or tagged for the purpose of exclusive use by major league player or team only. Not intended for sale or use by the general public. Use can be objectively annotated and subjectively qualified and any such item will be considered game used if the item was "Locker Ready..."
So, if I understand correctly with SCDA grading, there is no difference between game issued and game used? Something that never sees the playing field could get certified as "used"?
I think that might be confusing for many reasons- first- the definition of game used versus game issued are actually two very different things- so it's not entirely truthful. That's not to be taken lightly. You can't just re-define something. It's like saying "we regard something used by a player as something either used by the player, or not used by the player"
And number 2- since players know the values of equipment these days, what happens in the situation like Roger Clemens' 300th win. When we went for that milestone he had many jerseys ready that day and planned to change throughout the game. I know he decided not to change for the whole game- so (just making up a figure here) of the 9 jerseys he had ready to go, he wore 3. If all 9 were sent to you, would all 9 be certified as game used? That seems strange.
I hope I'm off base on this because that doesn't seem like the way to do business.
I will respond to this question because it was presented clearly and with the intention for education.
With the formation of SCDA, we had to address several areas of accessing game use on jerseys. Without actually seeing and video taping a player wearing a jersey, an authenticator nor anybody else can say 100% positively if the jersey was actually worn in a game.
What we can say for sure is:
1. Is the jersey properly tagged
2. Does it match known size for examined player
3. Is the manufacture correct for that team during that time frame
4. Is the jersey properly numbered and lettered.
Regarding actual game use, nobody can ever say for sure. As an authentication company, we were the first to be 100% honest in our evaluation of game use. Hence, the creation of our A5 grade.
Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and match tagging, lettering, numbering, size, materials, style, buttons, zippers, etc. With respect to use and wear, each piece is evaluated on the degree of use and wear evident with what should be expected for the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. No negative or incorrect manufactures traits or use characteristics are present. No Team or Player provenance was provided.
This is clearly stated and defined on our letters. Without a letter from the team, player, or other verifiable source, we cannot verify game use. Regarding your Roger Clemens scenario, it illustrates a very good point. If nine were issued and 3 were worn and all 9 were sent to us, I would have no way to know which 3 were actually worn. This is where Roger Clemens or a representative would have to tell us which 3 were worn and provide a notarized letter.
Regarding the 6 that were not worn, our LOA's would be titled as
2004 Roger Clemens Houston Astros game jersey
Final grade with respects to characteristics and game use: A5
And, at the end of our comment section, we typically add the phrase " no player or team provenance was provided. "
Nowhere do we state an A5 jersey was verified as being worn by examined player.
To take it a bit further on their (SCDA's) own LOO, their definition for game use says:
"...any any such item will be considered game used if the item was "locker ready" or used in the following game situations: pre-season, batting pratice, regular season, playoffs, championship or exhibition."
This could be an even bigger crock of "*$%!" than all the other stuff.
Let's examine some examples:
a) Alex Rodriguez shags fly balls with a new glove in batting pratice
b) Roger Clemens puts on a jersey and stretches out with the team in Spring Training
These instances according to SCDA's definition (not mine) that would allow them to sell the item as "game used" and most likely at a substantial financial gain.
THAT IS FLAT OUT WRONG NOT MATTER HOW YOU TRY AND SLICE IT.
Game used should mean exactly that, it was used by a player IN A GAME. Not batting practice, not a throw around, not an exhibition...IN A GAME.
Take it a bit further and apply the "Authenticator Interest" on top of that and it almost could be a license to steal.
This controversy gets better and better every day.
Re: Eric- Read a bit further into their definition
March 4 2005, 1:26 PM
Troy:
You said SCDA Authenticators would not be using SCDA LOA's when selling their own material in the future? "1. No authenticator can sell an item with a SCDA letter."
