This goes out to the dealers, authenticators- really anyone.
What is the worst fake you have ever seen? I'm not talking about a forged autograph on an item. I'm talking about an item that was being represented as game used, that had a misspelling, wrong jersey number, wrong style, wrong tags, any obvious error.
Let's hear it
Eric
I know this is not exactly what you were looking for but it gets the ball rolling. I saw a Ronald Reagan signed baseball (perfect signature) for $75 on Ebay. Interestingly enough, the ball was an official Major League baseball, not used until long after the onset of his Alzheimer's.
Autographs, shoot...I could go on forever on that subject. Misspellings are my favorite.
As far as jerseys go, I purchased a 1980 Blue Jays Dave Stieb white home. Only problem is that it was size 40 that looked like a 36. I knew he didn't wear 40. I asked the seller about it and he said "Oh yeah, it's good. If you can prove it, send it back for refund". So I saw Dave a few weeks after the purchase and he laughed and told me that he'd never be able to fit into a 40 in his career. I returned the jersey for a refund and the seller threw in a free Jim Kern home 1978...which also was a fake. At least this time, a free fake.
I saw a Peyton Manning Tennessee jersey that was just atrocious. We're talking wrong size, wrong style, wrong MANUFACTURER, wrong name style, wrong logo placement, wrong sleeves, and so on.
Of course, one of those "My friend got it from the trainer" stories accompanied it....I told the guy I'd sue him to the wild blue yonder if he ever tried to pass it off as game worn.
Terrence Long game used A's jersey w/Catfish Memorial
August 12 2005, 12:55 AM
The worst fake I have ever seen was a game used Oakland A's jersey that had a name & # change that came with a Lampson LOA. The jersey was a #37 and has the Catfish Hunter Memorial Patch. The patch was worn in the end of the 1999 season and Terrence Long played for the Mets in 1999. 2000 was his first season with the A's yet it had a Lampson LOA.... I think American Memorabilia auctioned this jersey off as well...
Re: Terrence Long game used A's jersey w/Catfish Memorial
August 12 2005, 6:54 AM
Hello David-
I found your post very interesting in that I believe I am familiar with the jersey your are referencing. You mentioned a name and number change on the jersey and, if there was, I was wondering if it is possible that the A's may have made those changes to a 1999 jersey and given it to Long when he joined the A's (I don't know exactly when the A's acquisition of Long took place). Maybe the jersey experts on this forum can help with the likelihood of that possibility.
The reason I bring that up is that, if it is the jersey I believe you are referencing (I don't know how many Terrence Long jerseys with Catfish Hunter memorial patches are out there), I know for a fact that it was originally purchased directly from the Oakland A's team store during an A's fan fest with an LOA from the Oakland A's.
Thus, I see three possible outcomes (maybe there are others) to your post:
1) We are talking about the same jersey and it is indeed fake. If so, the Oakland A's need to be alerted to the fact that they are selling fake jerseys with their LOAs in their team store;
2) You are mistaken about the jersey being fake and it would probably be fitting to apologize to Lou Lampson and AMI for your implied reference;
3) I am totally mistaken about which jersey you are talking about and I owe the forum an apology for any confusion I may have caused.
Please let me know if the third outcome listed above is warranted. If so, I will apologize immediately.
Best Regards,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe
Chris, hello sir.. Long was traded on July 23rd, 1999 to the A's as part of the Kenny Rodgers traded. He was immediately sent to Vancouver. No one has ever found Long being called up as he finished the season with Vancouver. Longs 1st appearance with the A's was in the 2000 season. Lou Lampson's LOA has the jersey listed as a 2000 game worn.. not 1999. So is it possible the team made a jersey up for Long? Absolutely.. could have even been used in a press conference. So its great that it has a Team LOA.. Please show me how the LOA makes it a game worn jersey?
Thank you so much for responding with useful information and a great question.
I know the person who originally bought the jersey from the A's team store thought it was game used and thought they had a certain level of assurance given it came directly from the A's. Especially since that jersey was sold as a "game used" jersey along with all the other jerseys in their store at the fan fest.
If I understand what you are saying correctly, the question is whether or not this jersey was actually ever used by Long in a game since he didn't play with the A's in 1999 and the jerseys with the Catfish Hunter memorial patch were not used in 2000. Is that correct?
This is a great question because it may show that even team stores may be selling "game used" jerseys that were not actually used in a game. Obviously, I don't think the teams would do this intentionally but may be happening nonetheless.
I think there is a portion of the collecting community that feels jerseys acquired directly from teams are almost certainly game used. If your information is correct, you may be showing that we shouldn't take it for granted that a jersey is game used just because it comes with a team letter.
BTW, does anyone else have any thoughts on this issue? I also believe the jersey being discussed was sold in auction and I was wondering if the current owner has the A's LOA. If so, could they verify that it says the jersey is "game used"? I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this but it would raise my awareness of the potential for team sold items to also have issues with them.
Thank you once again for the information you have provided. And, by the way, no need to call me "sir". Christopher or Chris is fine (I use Christopher because we have another person at Game Used Universe who is also named Chris).
I had a similar circumstance arise with an SF Giants jersey. It was an Alberto Castillo 2004 jersey, according to the Giants LOA. But when I attempted to trade it to a reputable jersey dealer, he told me that Castillo did not play with the Giants in 2004 -- that he had been traded before he played a game.
I subsequently traded it to a collector friend.
My conclusion is that the Giants made a mistake dating the jersey. That may have diminished its value to the dealer, but not to me or the guy who finally got it. In a funny way, it makes it all the more collectible.
This happens ALL the time at team sales and auctions. For example, last year at the Cubs Convention, there was a retail Russell Sosa jersey that was auctioned off as game worn (and a Cubs LOA was issued). You have to remember, the folks running these sales are not collectors (in fact, most wouldn't know a game worn jersey from a retail jersey). They don't take the time to review rosters, check for number/name changes, etc. If it's in a box of game used jerseys, they assume it's a gamer. I'm sure the Terrence Long jersey in question was prepared for him to wear, thrown into a box of jerseys at the end of the year, and sold in good faith by the A's as game worn.
Rob Steinmetz
Authentic Gamers, Inc.
www.authenticgamers.com
authenticgamers@aol.com
708.250.5220
This exact thing happend to me a few weeks ago. Someone made a posting about the Cincy Reds having game used jerseys for sale for 100.00. I bought a John Vander Wal and a Wilton Guerrero... they wrote game worn on the receipt for both. The Guerrero jersey when I received it was a #4 jersey.. Wilton wore #6 for the Reds ...so I called and the Manager and they said the exact same thing Rob said.. they just get given these jerseys and are told to sell them. No one goes through the time to investigate if they are actually game worn or not. The Reds were really nice about it and gave me a prompt refund. So just by saying it came directly from the team is not 100% authenticity saying it was actually worn. Iam sure this has happend alot, especially to un-suspecting buyers.
What good is a Johnson in your hand without paperwork?
August 12 2005, 2:53 PM
Rob-
I too had the same experience.
A few years ago, I went to the Phillies Wives auction, and what a complete fiasco!
Schilling's wife was completely dolled-up with ego in-check and was prancing around in a McGwire Card's jersey, however, it too had the retail collar tagging. When I asked her if I could take a look at the tagging both in the collar and tail, she made such a big deal about it (almost thinking I was asking her to take her blouse off that she was wearing under the McGwire jersey and I was asking her about "her tail")! I pointed out to her that the McGwire was not a team issued jersey, rather, a retail jersey that was autographed. She said, "My husband got it from Mark, and it was worn by him". Likewise, it came with a Phillies letter indicating it was game worn.
They also had a Randy Johnson Diamondbacks jersey that was worn, but a small size (50). I don't believe this shirt had a letter of authenticity, and as such, most collectors passsed on it.
Re: What good is a Johnson in your hand without paperwork?
August 12 2005, 2:57 PM
If they had a size 50 RJ jersey, I guarantee it wasn't worn. Paperwork or no paperwork, RJ only wore a size 52 with 5-6" extra length in Arizona. For those who have seen real RJ gamers in person, they are ENORMOUS! Sounds like it came from the same place as the Big Mac.
Rob Steinmetz
Authentic Gamers, Inc.
www.authenticgamers.com
authenticgamers@aol.com
708.250.5220
Vikes066, You're a sick puppy. Still barking at Bushing. Can't you broach something with substance?
You're still hiding due to "National Security" and your vast knowledge regarding all that's trivial.
You're OCD regarding Bushing has become old.
By not coming out, you're just a sicko.
I don't need one of your dimwitted replies.
With baseball cards, there are thousands of silly fakes. However, my favorites are when the eBay seller has an obviously fake T206 Honus Wagner or Eddie Plank with a million dollar minimum bid. With a $200 minimum min bid the seller has a chance (it only takes one sucker with $200). But with the minimum bid he has, even if there are suckers, none of them could even close to afford to place a bid.
A guy once had a homemade counterfeit 1920 Babe Ruth card eBay. His minimum bid was $100,000 and the authentic card is worth only about $5,000.
The worst one is the Freddy Garcia one I bought and still have because of the place I bought it from, I honestly don't trust that it won't end up back in the hobby somehow. The source also sold me a 2000 Grey Halama jersey that had a number change, why in the world would Halama have had a number change, when he was with the team(Mariners) the previous year(1999), had always worn the #54 with the Mariners but the jersey I got was a #54 with a number change from a #45. Along with that, nobody on the Mariners roster wore #45 in 2000, why would they even have a spare #45 for 2000.
Back to the Garcia here's the following points I posted in a much earlier thread along with an extra note about the sizing.
2000 Seattle Mariners Alternate Black Jersey, Freddy Garcia #34
1. Size 44 +2 Length
2. Name & # change, was Henderson #35
3. "Seattle" on front shows big signs of washing/puckering
4. Garcia name and numbers are new, at least the #4 is.
5. 3 is slightly lower than 4 on the back
6. Rickey Henderson 5'10" 190 (in 2000)
7. Rickey traditionaly wears size 44
8. Freddy Garcia 6'4" 235 (in 2000)
9. Freddy Garcia wore size 52 in 2003 he was still listed at the same height & weight as in 2000.
The person I bought the jerseys from is supposed to be a big time collector and is a worker? or has some very close connection with a local store that is supposed to be known for it's game used items, especialy Mariners items. How a "big time" collector would have missed these issues and still pass it as a game worn is beyond me, other than to find some fool.. like me back when I bought them. I bought them at a time when I was new to the hobby and like many people now, relied upon the letter and didn't look at the jersey closely. I also think I still have the LOA's and if I remember correctly they had changed the company name on them even though they were all bought from the same person. It was a big mistake and cost me a couple hundred but I learned that lesson the hard way.
On to the subject of Team Stores missing the boat so to speak on items being game worn. I will state that in my experience this is to be true. I have a close relationship with the Mariners and I was in the team store and they had some jerseys for sale, being labeled as "Commercial Worn". What is that you ask.. that's what I asked and what I was told was that the Equipment Manager told the Marketing person that this lot of jerseys are "commercial worn", nothing was ever mentioned about "game worn" just "commercial worn" as in used during the filming of a commercial. Well, looking at some of the jerseys and the names on them, some had definite game use to them and some of the players I knew were not in any commercials. Is the Equipment Manager wrong here..? How could he be..? He should know these terms and know where the equipment has been right? That I don't know the answer to yet.
So in this case, the jerseys were sold as being Commercial worn, although they all were most likely game used or game ready as some players weren't called up or didn't see playing time. This will hopefuly be fixed in the future as I'll try to get more involved in what things are labeled as when being sold and at the very least educating some people about the items being sold. Always remember do your own research on any game used item you are even thinking about buying.
Remember: The letter(LOA/COA) that comes with the item means absolutely nothing, the item itself makes it real, not the letter.
One of the reasons MeiGray represents the teams it does is because we have been able to express to the teams with which we do business the value in having professionals who are liasons to the sports collecting community, and who understand how the game-worn hobby works.
We tell them that these are their best fans buying jerseys, and they deserve to be treated well.
We cannot state strongly enough to our clients and the collecting community that in this day and age there are many outright fakes (authentics and retail jerseys pawned off as gamers by a variety of sources), many improperly described jerseys, and many innocent mistakes mades.
I will refrain from making general statements about the lack of professionalism and the blatant incompetence of any so-called authenticating service, but I can state these two facts:
1--We have had a contract with the Texas Rangers dating to 2001, we have acquired every jersey in their post-season inventory since 2001, and not one professional authenticating service has ever called us to specifically check records or facts about a Texas Rangers jersey from 2001-present.
2--We have had a contract with the Philadelphia Eagles dating to 2000, we have acquired every jersey in their post-season inventory since 2000 (except for the ones they have sold themselves, as per the teams of our contracts), and not one professional authenticating service has ever called us to specifically check records or facts about a Philadelphia Eagles jersey from 2000-present.
We have always understood that some jerseys slip out prior to season's end, from a variety of sources. But we have acquired more than 1,300 game-worn and game-issued Rangers jerseys from the team. We have acquired more than 500 game-worn and game-issued Eagles jerseys from the team.
And not one call from any professional authenticating service despite the countless authentications done.
That fact absolutely astounds me, given that we have publicized our relationship with the Philadelphia Eagles and Texas Rangers in major publications like SCD, and we have unmatched knowledge and information when it comes to uniform tagging, team serial numbering, specific game use and customizing, and photo-matching research.
Why do I bring this up in a topic about fakes? As the collecting community is maturing, and collectors like yourselves are starting to demand more from sellers, we at MeiGray take our responsibility to earn our profits very seriously.
We want you collectors to know that. And we want you to be more discriminating when it comes to purchases. When I started this company in 1997 I promised to be available to collectors, to help them. We provide a toll-free phone number. We will always share information, and help collectors make informed choices.
This Forum has become a good starting point. Many of you are doing a good job questioning so-called experts who are being exposed as frauds. Please be civil about it, though, so your questions are heard - not lost in a war of words.
MEIGRAY IS TOPS IN THE GAME WORN BUSINESS!!!!!!! I know that I don't even have to think twice when planning to purchase a jersey from Barry .It's a great feeling knowing that you are getting EXACTLY what you are paying for.Not only is their inventory beyond reproach ,their service to their customers is 2nd to none. Just an example:Awhile back I bought 2002 road Texas Rangers Bill Haselman from Barry. Being the nitpicker I am I found that some of the threads in shoulder seam were coming undone(just general wear and tear for a gamer , but hey I'm anal about that stuff) I wear my gamrs around and was afraid after several washings that it would come undone. Icalled Barry and he said he'd take it back and exchange it. NO PROBLEM . I sent the jersey back and had the other within days. I also ordered a hockey jersey from latest sale and it was at my door in 26 hrs.
Barry and the gang at MeiGray(Dave Hall, Carrie et.al)ROCK!
Paul
My reference to the lack of authenticator calls refers to specific calls from services researching Texas Rangers jerseys and Philadelphia Eagles jerseys since MeiGray began working with each of these teams.
I did not mean to infer that I have never received any calls from any authentication services.
