I have come to the concludion that the hobby of Hockey Cards has a NEW "Holy Grail" card. This card is in my opinion comparable to the Honus Wagner of Baseball.
Hockey's Holy Grail card is...... The 1923-24 William Paterson V145-1 #25 Bert Corbeau SP.
This card has NEVER been graded by PSA!! It is THE ONLY card in the entire set that has never been graded by PSA - according to the Population report. This card is EXTREAMLY rare - maybe impossible to either find or see!!! I am actually doubting if it exists or not either graded or raw.
This card was Short Printed and from what I have heard was some sort of redemption card to get a prize or a gift.
PSA lists the card at $5000.00 for a PSA 4 and I HIGHLY doubt that it would sell for that if it actually existed. I think even a PSA 1 or 2 could get $5000.00! If a Bert Corbeau PSA 6 existed you would see it go for $20,000.00usd min. Way more than a Vezina in PSA 6 - which sold on eBay 2 months ago for $6,000.00
Everyone thinks about the Vezina RC from C55 is the Holy Grail card BUT I would really like to get peoples thoughts on this issue and if you guys think it is the Holy Grail card or not.
If people don't think it is the Holy Grail card - I want solid reasons why. I know Bert Corbeau was not a major star like Vezina was BUT the sheer rarity of the card MUST make it the MOST valuable and desirable.
This message has been edited by shiftintermedia on Feb 8, 2007 9:33 PM
Desirable in what aspects?
Back in the day to redeem my prize--YES...
In todays world it'll be more for the monetary value for some; BUT for some a nostalic piece of hockey history? BUT his name is not so reconizable if it wasn't for the card that is needed for the redemption of the "prize".
As a person who studies hockey his name hasn't inspired me to do much research to find out the quality of player he was or have any real link to hockey history.
BUT being as things are....Things will be...
This message has been edited by Vntagehky on Feb 8, 2007 9:54 PM
There are several cards in each sport of which there are only 1-5 known cards of:
Basketball: Bread for Energy George Mikan
Baseball: Alpha Engravings, Lone Jacks, N167 Old Judges, N172 Old Judge Cap Anson (uniform), E107's
Hockey: 1924-25 Maple Crispette Sprague Cleghorn, 1933-34 V129 Harry Oliver
These are only a few examples of extremely rare cards that are not considered the holy grails of their respective sports. Heck, the status of the T206 Wagner has much less to do with it's scarcity (perceived or otherwise) than with (1) it's stature in the top baseball set (or at least one of the top 3), (2) his status as an original HOFer, (3) high grade. The T206 Doyle variation only has 2 or so known copies with the Fair copy being sold for higher than a comparable T206 Wagner. However, the Doyle variation is nowhere near considered a holy grail because of (1) obscurity of the player (same with Corbeau), (2) extreme scarcity which really limits the number of people who can own or even hope to own it, (3) very low grade. The T206 Wagner appeals to people on many different levels: collectors of HOFer's, T206 portraits, all-time great shortstops, high-dollar cards, rare cards, high-conditioned cards (whether it is trimmed or not). The V145-1 Corbeau has very little going for it except for extreme scarcity. The V145-1 set is not even considered one of the major hockey sets.
For me, the C55 Vezina is the holy grail of hockey based on (1) scarcity (but not so scarce that you can't ever hope to have one), (2) HOFer and playing legend, (3) a major NHL award in his name, (4) all-time great players and goalies, (5) member of the Montreal Canadiens, (6) the top card in arguably the top pre-war hockey set.
I would personally take any display box from the 1930's opc than any card from any set. We all collect different things and that is what the forum is all about. Its not about the money its about the personal desire.
So the only holy grail out there is what someone wants the most for personal reasons.
I agree that desirability is just as important if not more so than rarity. You would think that for a card to be considered a " Holy Grail ", the player in question should have more going for him than just being a short print.
Just my opinion, yours may differ and I respect that.
As far as holy grails go, when was the last time anyone here saw a 1955 Quaker Oats card of Richard, Clancy or Lumley? Do high grade examples even exist?
This message has been edited by rob-star on Feb 8, 2007 11:09 PM
The fact that he wasn't a major star answers part of your question. This to me has got to be the most overrated card in our hobby. How on earth is his card being the Holy Grail justified? The player who defines the Holy Grail card will be extremely expensive from every issue, like Vezina and Morenz, 2 players who were the biggest stars of their time and have stood the test of time. I see him as a one hit wonder. His other issue prices prove my point. An SP card of a nobody or a Vezina or Morenz? The answer is tooooooooo easy. Just my 2 cents.
This message has been edited by DamirTomicic on Feb 9, 2007 12:20 AM
I don't think that the Corbeau, Oliver or Cleghorn are true "holy grail" cards. They are super scarce but lack the star power. I think the only super rarity in the hobby with star power is the 1955 Quaker Oats Maurice Richard.
Paul, throw the price guides away. If either of the 3 sp's were offered for sale today in any presentable condition, lets say vg, the price would be in the $20000 range. Jim.
hey jim,to own it for 20 minutes that means "as the mobsters would say" he gave you an offer you could not refuse.i guess you got good money for it.for me it is the corner stone of my orr collection and i just cant get myself to give it up.thanks for the nomination as one of the holy grails of all time,it is my #1 choice. see page 192 in the VHC,thats my orr and full box,enjoy!
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Feb 9, 2007 12:33 AM
Nice post John, well said. If scarcity were the only (or even the primary) criteria it would be impossible to designate one card as being "the grail". I think one thing that can't be overlooked, and which is implicit in your criteria I guess, is the recognizability of the Vezina. For whatever reason (including yours and maybe others) it has become symbolic and (maybe this is a stretch) transcended the hobby. Not that you couldn't make the claim that the Orr and maybe the Gretzky are equally recognizable to non-collectors, but I think that the age of the card necessarily adds to the mystique. I would say the Vezina followed by the Orr.
Wouldn't you agree that a big part of the appeal of the Wagner arose because of Gretzky's purchase ? I haven't been around the hobby that long so not sure how it was regarded before then, but did it have the reputation as "the baseball grail" before all of that press ?
hi geo vezina,to see a clear scan of my bazooka orr turn to page 192 in the book "vintage hockey collector" price guide 1910-1990.that is my bazooka orr and my display box.if you do not have the book a would recomend buying one, you will love the vintage info and photos in there, it is well worth the money. www.vintagecollector.com to buy one or on ebay shearch words 'vintage collector guide'.there are also other photos you have never seen before in the book,page 74 was both short printed corbeau and cleghorn cards.cheers
Even though the T206 Wagner has been the most expensive card in the hobby for a long time (price guides in the early 70's list it at $30 or so when most other T206's were 5 cents), there is always a luster, hoopla, excitement when it comes to auction, regardless of the condition (even trimmed). I would agree that having one of, if not the greatest, hockey player ever buying it added to its status. Even to non-hockey fans, Gretzky's name is still quite recognizable.
Hockey collectors don't have anything close to that level, however for the reasons previously stated, I consider the C55 Vezina about as close as we're gonna get. The age of the card factors into the rate of attrition of that card and the much less likelihood of finding high-grade or any additional copies (as compared to the boxes/packs of 79-80 OPC which still exist, for example).
i have check in my becket and this orr ahev a value around 2000 $ but this value is ok? if this card will be in auction according to your experience in this set how much this card can have for result of an auction?
Nelson. Forget about the price guides when it comes to cards like this. Poor condition commons will sell for $200+ these days. I'm sure Dan has received a few email offers since he has posted the scan of the Orr. Jim.
Nelson,jim is right,price guides like the yearly beckett has not been changed for years.they do not follow the real true market for rare cards like bazookas and even vintage cards they are to much into the new stuff,a bazooka common on ebay about half a year ago "walt mckenzie #28" to be exact,was graded a poor PSA 1 got over $200 US. beckett value at near mint $25-$50. throw out the price guide as it does not know nothing about the odd issues or even cards from the 1910's to the 1940's.yes it does list my bazooka orr for $2500,i would buy 10 right now for that price each, even if they where in poor shape.i was offered $10,000 twice for my card and said no way!!!!! all you guys got to buy the "vintage hockey collector" guide it is the best by far in guides out there written by true hockey collectors for the true vintage freaks like me and most guys on the forum.just my 2 cents worth!!
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Feb 9, 2007 1:26 PM
Al, Gretzky purchasing it did take it to another level, but it was the Holy Grail of baseball long before that. I have a baseball collecting book for beginners from 1987 and lists the Wagner at that time for $35,000 with no other card even close. Just wait a few more years and you will possibly see a new Holy Grail in baseball, the 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth. A PSA 4 sold for $243,000 last year at REA and many collectors didn't even know the card existed. The previous sale for the same card was $79,500, a huge jump after 1 sale. There will be another one up for auction in the upcoming REA auction. The biggest name in baseball is Ruth and everyone will pay alot more to have his rarest collectibles, and this one has a HUGE advantage over the T206 Wagner, it actually is rare. There are less than 10 known to exist. Here is a scan of the $243,000 card.
ok the bazooka 1971 72 is same type of card of sweet caporal postcard 1910.. the book is not wright on it. A comon sweet caporal postcard is listing at 150 usd in ex-mt i think. In the past years harvey goldfarb has told to me a sweet caporal postcard common can be sold around 1000 to 1500 usd $ it is the same situation of the bazooka ! but thanks for the info
damir,are you shure that is the same card that sold for $243,000.it does not look like a psa 4 to me.looks like a psa 1 in poor shape.also that subject is more suited for a baseball vintage forum.not trying to be a smart ass,just rather read about hockey on this forum,some of us do not even own one baseball card.back to hockey please. p.s.--nice dryden rookie you got there,now thats hockey!!!
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Feb 9, 2007 4:48 PM
That is the PSA 1 . I had a big picture of it so I just wanted to put it up here so people could see it. I'm not trying to promote baseball in any way on this forum, but many people didn't even know the card even existed. Since we were comparing Holy Grails and I think the Wagner is a bit overrated, I wanted to show what I think is the Holy Grail.
My personal Holy Grail would be the C57 Vezina, very rare and very pleasing picture of a young superstar. I have always been attracted to black and white photos and cards of that era rather than color.
Don't worry, I am a vintage HOCKEY collector and I won't be posting anything other than hockey, but this was something that I thought people might want to see since it is VERY rare.
Here are 2 of my latest additions, not high grade, but I cannot be picky with such a rare issue. Thanks.
I think in the hockye the 2 holy grail card is ORR RC and Gretzky rookie. why? because this 2 card is know by many person who dont know anything of hockey card but this 2 name is the most popular name in the hobby and this 2 card is 2 high value card. But the value of this 2 card is not = to the value of wagner but in high grade this 2 card have a big value and it is the most know 2 hockey player of all time. And the gretzky rookie is the hockey card sell for the highest price in the hockey card history. yes it is true a gretzky is not verry rare but find it in psa9 or a 10 is not easy it is verry hard because the rought cut...
Hi!This is my first post. I am a vintage hockey collector. I collect goalies and have a collection of cards that is notable for being extremely broad in scope and also extremely poor in condition. I have a fair number of rare cards. Anyway, here are my thoughts on a candidate for a "Holy Grail" card, realizing this is all subjective.
To me, such a card has to be EXTREMELY RARE. After all, you have to search for the Holy Grail, don't you? Second, I agree that it should be a card of a great player, at least a Hall of Famer. Even better, if possible it should be the ONLY card of that player. So, my candidate is:
Hap Holmes 1924-1928 Anonymous!! What I would give for that one!! Any idea on how much this card would go for? I think it's his only card, and I've never seen one of these.
I have to agree with John. In fact, I'd say Greg's specific example is the holy grail just as the Gretzky Wagner is the holy grail of baseball. If it isn't that card its Vezina's 1910 postcard.
Rare HOF rookie cards of second and third tier HOF'ers have proven to be not so valuable. My collection had and to some extent still has many of 1 of 1 or 1 of a fews.... for HOF rookie cards.
Lionel Conacher's Dominion Chocolates, Steamer Maxwell (Elliots is the only one I seem), Harry Watsons Willards Chocolates, Chuck Gardiners 1928 Paulins, Carl Voss's Dominions Chocolates, and the list goes on...... They're nice cards but not bank breakers. I just sold Rusty Crawfords Paulins rookie card (last card in set and he is a HOF'er)which was a 1 of 1 for $300. It's definitely a very tough card. But rarity seems to only be important if its well promoted. Hap Holmes was no better than any of those guys.
Find a Fred Fredrickson Holland Creameries card and you found something rare. It's the only HOF rookie card I have never even seen a scan of.
Greg's Vezina is definitely "the card" in this hobby until something better comes along.
i don't think there is a holy grail in hockey cards. there are three top notch hockey cards: the rookie gretzky,the orr rookie,and the c55 vezina card. but none of them is the holy grail. to prove my point the t206 honus wagner goes for 2million and the best t206 plank(which is rarer) goes for 300 to 400k. these are the top examples of course. see the price disparity. but the orr rc,gretzky rc,and vezina rc all go for about the same price(best examples). i've said this before the c55 vezina is the best vintage card while the orr rc and gretzky rc are the best from the modern era. as far as the corbeau goes i don't think there's a hockey card collector who wouldn't want to own one. but actually buying it would be a different story since you have to pay for it and its not from a key set that most collectors build. the corbeau is scarce which makes it very desirable but its not a holy grail. has sgc graded one? signed greg
The fact of the matter is if there was a holy grail we wouldn't have to argue over what it was. It would be obvious.
The differenet, Greg, between Orr and Gretzky as compared to Wagner, Plank and Vezina is that there are thousands and thousands of Orr's and Gretzky's out there. Can't say anything near that for the others.
Your argument on Orr and Gretzky is obviously about the grade of the top Orr and top Gretzky card, but most long time graded card collectors will tell you that the difference between a 9, a 9.5, and a 10 can be called "subjective", "politics", "inconsistent grading", or even "bull****".
The top Orr and the top Gretzky can only be compared to the top Vezina to a person who collects the numbers on the tops of slabs. Unfortunately that's this hobby at the moment. I'm not saying Vezina is the holy grail. I'm just saying if hockey had one that would be it.
Pre-war hockey is loaded with low to no pop cards of great players. If a short print common player is the holy grail of the hockey hobby than the hockey hobby is in trouble.
tom, good point about there are not that many vezina's,plank's,and wagner's vs. the amount of orr's and gretzky's. i bought the vezina because i like vintage hockey vs. the modern era. although i never thought of it as the holy grail. you're right about the sp corbeau. how can you have a holy grail when there are not that many examples. signed greg