Kinda funny, I had a cool flashback yesterday when I was walking to the store when I saw a young boy about 8 years old with his friend walking towards me and a familar sound followed...
The boy had an empty pop can on his foot, you remember, you would step on a pop can and it would crush the middle and the sides would wrap up and around your outsides of your shoe and it would stay there.
Kids don't seem to do that these days and I was instantly transported back to 1970's and remember walking to school with one of those on my foot, it was almost like you were cool doing it and other kids would want to borrow and wear it too!!
Kinda made me think back to those days and was dreaming that I wish I would have put a box of every years cards away growing up...
hey guys remember putting your hockey cards attached to clothing pegs in the spokes of your bike rim. all us kids thought that was cool too. i never see kids do that now or even ride a friggen bike. battery operated skooters/bikes and mini gas motorcycles now. no wonder the new generation is over weight at a young age. LOL
<<Kinda made me think back to those days and was dreaming that I wish I would have put a box of every years cards away growing up...>>
If you are speaking investment wise, I wouldn't worry about that since cards from the 70s aren't worth crap. Unless you put away like a hundred 71/72 OPC sets in gem mint condition. As for the rest of the cards from that decade, they are better off burnt.
jim you forgot, "closies" and "knocksies". my favourite was "scrambles" (when a kid would finish his set he no longer wanted the wad of traders in his hand so he would scream "scrambles" throw them up in the air and all of us would pick up as much as we can for free). in my neighbourhood the bike spoke thing was very common in downsview ontario. James i can not believe you think all the 70's cards are crap. if you do not want them i will gladly take them. some great cards came from the 70's!!!!
Wow all of the cards from the 70's are basicly trash?That's a new one with me,I think some really great cards & designs came from the 70's.As for the cards in bicycle spokes we did the very same thing & Bobby I remember the can thingy too as for kids & bikes today it's a rarity as they like the game consoles & other electronic gadgets.I'll tell you one thing we used to do we would play the game called flipper.The one who could flip his card the farthest won that card.If one player had a majority of the cards he could put them all in and if he flipped his card the farthest he won the cards tossed in the pile by the other players.Do you see kids doing these things today,not here I don't.Yes bobby I love to dream too as I feel like a freebird .
I remember only 1 kid did that with his cards. We were more into dropies, knockies at school. An squabbles was usually when older kids would rough up the younger kids and take their cards and throw them in the air, poor kids but man, kids would run like rabbits to pick up cards when they heard that.
And James, I was referring to packs really but there are but a few pack collectors so I used cards but the 1970's cards are pretty cool anyone who doesn't like them, well.......
This message has been edited by BobbyBHockey on Sep 19, 2007 3:23 PM This message has been edited by BobbyBHockey on Sep 19, 2007 3:23 PM
I do remember throwing my 71-72 OPC cards up against the wall. But I cannot recall what we deemed as the winner. I think it was closest to or a leaner?
All my old stuff from when I was a kid went to a friend of mine back when I was about 15 or so. He constanly bugged me to sell them to him. So I finally gave in and off they went (~10000 cards) for a whopping $25.00. The kicker of it all is that I have yet to receive payment for them some 25+ years later. Boy I was a shrewed one back then. LOL!
I found out later that his uncle owned one of the first card shops in the Vancouver area and was getting him to coax all his friends out of their card hoards. Bugger!
I agree with the 1970's card as bieng not that bad to collect. Try putting a 1970 OPC PSA 8 set together and you quickly realize how popular this set is with hockey collectors.The 6 Orr cards, Sittler, Perrault, Clarke and Park rookies will break the bank and of course the Selby untraded card version.
I just can't understand it when people try to collect these cheap cards in high grade. Let's say there is a card worth $50, before grading came along you could buy it in Near Mint/Mint for $50. Today people would rather have that card in a PSA 8 holder and pay $400 for it. I mean hey, they could own it in PSA 7 for around $50 as well, but nope - has to be PSA 8. Think about it, when you have nice cards you are not going to sit there examining them under a microscope! You will look at them with your naked eye and say "oh la la, very nice!" Not as if you are going to be able to tell a huge difference between each grade. I mean you do hear about cards being resubmitted and bumped up in grade , right? And how dealers often receive higher grades since they submit more? Just goes to show you that people these days are collecting labels and not cards.
but james-"each to there own". this is the wrong place to put down 70's cards or any other vintage cards. you do not here us whine on how pathetic guys are buying the new shiny stuff like you do. come on $3000 for some of the short print crosby rookies,dont get me wrong i think he is a fantastic player but you never know with the future if he turns into another alexander daigle then what happens to that $3000. with todays modern cards the companys like upper crap make the card rare by putting a pathetic little short print number on the card. this is an example of "each to there own". if you know new stuff go to the beckett forums. do not come here whining about how us vintage guys collect or say 70's cards suck.
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 19, 2007 10:02 PM
Donald, when did I ever say I collect modern cards? I once started a thread discussing the arrival of game-used cards in our market, that's pretty much it.
And hey, at least you can gamble with modern cards. It's like the stock market. Let's say Penguins win a cup, or maybe two. You're telling me Crosby's cards won't be on fire? And the excitement of watching these players in action.
What about some player from the 1970s? You think his card is going to skyrocket in 5 years? 10 years? Nope. Maybe a couple hundred dollars here and there, but you call that investing? I found an old Beckett issue from 1995, and the cards from the disco days have not changed much. Then again, that is unless you can somehow get PSA to give your $20 card a 10 GEM MINT. Good luck!
Note: I collect vintage cards. But if any of you have been offended by what I've said about 70s cards(like our friend Donald here), I apologize.
This message has been edited by James_McThigh on Sep 20, 2007 11:51 AM
::Just------------------------------uncontrollably. LOL!:: "one thing i do not except from no one is personal coments. i would much appreciate if you edit this rediculous comment off your post."
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 20, 2007 1:21 PM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 20, 2007 9:20 AM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 19, 2007 11:58 PM
James the problem you don't understand is we collect cards for the passion not the money.I could care less if my cards are high value cards.Another note remember whatever go's up must come down.In other words Orr & Gretzky are the two best to ever lace 'em up look at their card values,you think Crosby's rookie card will be worth more than the 66-67 Topps Test issue or the 71-72 Bazooka for that matter,I truly know it won't.These two have already made their mark on the sport while our young friend Crosby has just begun & his career could end with a hit etc......(Which I hope does not happen) You see my point? If you don't then may I suggest you study the markets for all collectibles & the shiny new stuff is Junk as the newness wears off & you go after the next card & the next & so on.Collecting vintage cards of one player is more fun & just as challenging & I decided I would hunt down all of Orr's cards but I am stopping at his last issue his TCMA card as for the new Orr cards they just don't tickle my fancy.Just my two cents.
jim out of respect for you and this forum i did edit my swearing. i would also like to see james edit his comment as well. i do not take personal comments lightly. i am shure no one else likes personal comments.
Opps, I forgot to mention the populariity of the 1971 OPC set with the Lafleur,Dryden and Dionne rookies and its great card design. Yeah, the 70's are popular with collectors. I collect these (as well as the 50's and 60's) because it is my era growing up and trust me I'am not alone, just follow the auctions. Great era, players, and cards to collect.
Ralph, it's quite obvious that passion is not the only reason that people collect cards - see today's other post, for example. Despite what they may say, anyone who pays $1000+ for a no-name card from the '70s is interested in one of two things - money/investment i.e. resale value; or ego i.e. I have something you don't. Not that there's anything wrong with either reason but IMO it has nothing to do with a passion for the game of hockey.
Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but quite often I see, as in your post, the "passion argument" followed by a comment on the value of the relative cards. If someone is passionate about hockey then what is wrong with them being passionate about the best young player that the game has seen since maybe Gretzky and wanting to collect his cards ? I would also argue that from an investment perspective Crosby's RCs might in fact be an excellent one, as he may well end up being the best that ever laced 'em up. I'm sure there were doubts with respect to Gretzky too in 1979, but I wish I had loaded up on his RCs then. Sure Sid's career may end in an injury, but you can't have an investment without risk. And I am sure that if he ends up breaking Gretzky's records that his "best", short-printed, i.e. scarce RCs will have proven to be a good investment
I guess I get a kick out of posters who look with disdain on collectors of modern cards but exhibit what seems to be similar behavior when it comes to their vintage.
Al, I could not agree more. Collect what you like for passion and or investment. Would like to make a point though. I collected and kept all my original cards starting in 1966 to 1977. I collected them as a kid for the passion and not an investment because they were worth nothing then and have become investments over time. As a child they were cardboard heros to me and many other kids, and as investments heck we could not even prononce the word never mind try to spell it. Living in Toronto growing up, hockey was our lives 7 days a week 12 months of the year.
Al I understand what your saying but I do collect for only the passion.I was trying to make a point by using values.Crosby is a very talentd player so yes he is a good investment but I DO NOT see him breaking Gretzky's records of total points in a career.Just my two cents
Donald. You're right, I should have stated that. I would have thought at this point it was understood.
There is nothing wrong with collecting new cards, I think that's how most of us entered the hobby. I don't agree with the way wax products are sold as a form of legalized gambling and the manufactured rarity is a total joke and adds to the gambling part of it. Have you guys seen some of the prices of high end wax these days? The only fair product is something like regular Upper Deck where the chance of finding the rookies is equal. It seems like high end products number 90% of the rookies to something like 999 and they number the ones you want at something like 199 or less. Is that not like putting a "grand prize" out there? Different strokes for different folks but I just don't see much upside when guys are paying thousands for a brand new card of an unproven player. Crosby is a big time star, but the prices are stupid and any potential is probably priced in. The trickle down to lesser players is silly too, look at anything that comes from that Cup product. I think there is a Jordan Stall card on ebay now for around $2500. C'mon. Just my opinion.
Lyle. What are you doing posting at 10.30 in the morning? Vacation? Jim.
I guess what I was getting at is that the criticism of modern card collecting (no one has any issues with the kids putting sets of the lower end stuff together I wouldn't think) always seems to be price-based. And when the people making the criticism are shelling out thousands for vintage cards just because someone has assigned a high grade to them I see a certain level of hypocrisy.
But I think it's brilliant, the short-printing. For a large segment of collectors (i.e. most adults) they have done exactly that, made it into a form of gambling; and that is always lucrative. For investors it had to be done - when people were buying the gum and chocolate with the cards years ago I don't imagine there was any idea that the cards would someday be worth huge amounts, hence the scarcity today. The difference is that people know that today so that's the only way that the companies can appeal to that demographic (the investor). I mean, a Crosby Young Gun rookie or other non-short-print is simply never going to appreciate much over time because there are so many people accumulating and preserving them. Building in scarcity was an ingenious way to sell to that crowd IMO.
I don't follow it anymore but I know that the UD Premier RCs of guys like Spezza and Heatley and Nash were insanely priced when they came out and have done nothing but appreciate since; good investments. Whether they continue to remains to be seen but someone who got in at the beginning could sell for a good profit now I would think.
Al. The major difference between the two markets is that one developed naturally and one I feel is manufactured. The rarity and value is not true. A vintage card that is considered rare is so because it was for a bike giveaway or there wasn't enough room on a sheet so something had to go or reasons along these lines. Now there are a bunch of guys in an office in California that have to manufacture the rarity thus making it seem like there is more demand. What if a Howe rookie was numbered to 99, would this be such a strong hobby today? What if every decent Orr card was limited to less than 200 copies, how many would you own? As for grading, again, I feel this happened naturally as the hobby evolved. There are alot of cards out there and there were a ton of dealers giving you the old "trust me it's mint" routine. Grading, although not perfect has helped the hobby tremendously. I know not everyone agrees with this but think back to ebay before grading and think back to when everyone had their own take on grades. Atleast now, even if I decide to not grade a card, I can offer it to someone I know based on the accepted grading scale and both buyer and seller will be more confident in the transaction. Grading new cards is growing too and I also find it hilarious. Is it mint or gem mint? Oooo Ahhh. I saw a 2 month old baseball card listed for $25k. Are you friggin serious??? The player will not be in the majors for years if he even makes it. I feel the whole market or a big chunk of it is fake, it's not true, and it has a bottumless pit of a bottum. Again just my opinion and I have no problem with new card collectors and even find myself liking some of the stuff. I just feel that the high end of the market is bogus. Jim.
I started collecting in the early 90's, and for years the rookies were printed equally. It was easy to buy a box of Upper Deck and try to build the set. You got plenty of rookies in a box, even though some of them didn't become well known for quite a while. It was great to buy a box and get 2 or 3 of a certain rookie who ended up being worth something.
Now I hear of people spending $600 for a tin of 3 cards. Like Jim said, they are gambling. Many of them will buy 3 tins and get angry that they didn't get a monster card worth more than their investment!
I also agree that $2000 and up for a player with 2 good years under his belt seems a little high. If he continues to improve and leads his team to 2-3 Stanley Cups, will his rookie be worth $5000, or $10,000? It seems like the appreciation has been built into the current prices.
In regards to grading, I like grading because I have also purchased NrMint raw cards off eBay in the past, only to find that they had a small crease or dinged corners. The subjectivity of grading made it difficult to know who to trust. I don't look for PSA 9's and 10's of vintage cards. I usually buy PSA 7's because I don't want to pay over twice the price for the same card sealed in a PSA 8 holder. But I do look for 8's with 1970's cards. (Which I see as the area with a great deal of potential for growth.)
I just feel that rookie cards should start out equally, then rise in value when they have accomplished something. This would make it a hobby for everyone, not just a hobby for the rich and well off collectors.
Sure it's manufactured Jim, but I was talking about the high-end graded aspect of vintage collecting which I also see as manufactured. It's still guys sitting in an office in California telling us that there are only X number of cards in existence; at least in the case of the modern card it's static (if they can be believed). I was only saying that the same mentality applies to those willing to shell out thousands for a Crosby /99 as those willing to pay insane amounts for a PSA10 1970 Joe Blow. Actually, now that I think of it, the modern collector could probably have a better claim to the "passion" argument than the vintage guy in that case, since Crosby is surely going to become an historical figure in the game.
Not that I am anti-grading, I value it for the same reason you and Earl allude to, I buy 99% of my stuff online and have learned not to rely on other's opinions. But once you get into the stratosphere of 9s and 10s it's not the card anymore.
Al. All the graders can tell you is what they've graded. Pop reports will grow but 100 mint copies of each 50's card is not going to fall out of the sky. You argue that the numbering of new rookies is static but is it really? The same company produces 40 different products a year, half of these products have a Crosby autographed rookie numbered to 500 or less and most of those have parallels. Just because they changed the logo and wrappers every week for a whole winter and placed the sticker with Crosby's sig in a different place, what's the real difference. There are 1000's of autographed Crosby cards all released in the same season by the same company.
Seriously guys, think about a friend of yours deciding he wants to get into cards and asking your opinion about new versus old. Do you tell him to take his paycheck and start cracking $200 boxes? He'll most likely end up with a pile of garbage and a $3 jersey card and think he would have been better off with scratch and win tickets. Do you tell him to buy high end rookies on ebay? He'll look at the prices and see he can't get far with even a few thousand.
The same guy can start 2 or 3 different 60's sets in the 7-8 grade range at once, build them over a few years and have a sense of accomplishment at the end of it. And since most people equate all this with money, which scenario is your friends money safer in? Jim.
No, I would definitely never advise anyone to buy packs of boxes of new product, it's a suckers game, the odds just aren't there. And I would always advise someone to collect vintage because I love the history of the game and I see it (collecting) as a great way to learn about it. But I'm still not sure that the investment potential isn't there for the modern high-end RCs; as I said, you can see some that have already appreciated over the last 7 or 8 years from starting amounts that were seen as obscene at the time. Who is to say they aren't going to continue to appreciate ? So if someone asked me for investment advice, I'm not sure that I would tell them that the PSA10 is a better buy than the Crosby RC, that's all.
I grew up in Nova Scotia.
I can honestly say I had dozens of gretzky rookies but as a 10 yr old in 1980 to me they were only worth the fun we had trading them and puting them on our spokes of our bike.I remember going to the store and geting 20 or 30 packs of 80-81 OPC at a time and opening them on the front stairs of the store because I couldn't wait and open them at home!
Hockey cards were everything to me and my friends and we routinly had them taken from us by our teachers in class because we were trading during lessions.
In 1998 I was looking through some old boxes and found some of my cards I had as a kid.
All that remained were about 100 cards from the 87-88 OPC set.Seeing them brought back so many memories that I decided to collect hockey cards again and I haven't stoped since!