Although I do read this board daily I rarely post. My last post was asking for advice on an issue I had regarding
a lost card. It was in regards to the 55 Plante RC that was suppose to be insured and then lost. It turned out most people felt how I did and that I should be refunded which in the end I was.

This new issue is regarding someone that occasionaly posts on this board. A Mr. Rick King. I have no idea why but we have had some animosity towards each other in the past. Although I'm not exactly sure of the reason I believe it's because I like to collect Bobby Hull cards on the registry and he feels that I shouldn't. He can enlighten me if I'm incorrect.

Basically we set up a trade as follows..
15 1959 Topps PSA 7s from me
and
$425, a 61 Topps Ted Green PSA 8 and a 60 Topps Camille Henry PSA 7 from him.

I'll admit I sent the cards later than I promised. Although to make up for it I sent the cards USPS Express Mail.
Tracking Number if anyone cares to look.. EB677008801US I will also supply a photo of the reciept if there is any
interest.

So yesterday I receive a package from Rick that was to contain the two cards he was suppose to send me. The envelope
was empty other than some cardboard. I contacted Rick and he implied it must have been tampered with. Within a few hours he files
a Paypal Dispute. Within an hour of the dispute he files a Claim. I hadn't even had a chance to respond with the tracking info. He then leaves this comment in the
Paypal Claim.
"This seller is well known worldwide for his antics. We made a deal over 2 weeks ago that I would send him $425.00 with paypal and two hockey cards that he needs and in return he would send me 15 1959 Topps hockey cards and two other cards to replace the card that I sent him. He received a parcel yesterday and said that it was empty and I still have received nothing in the mail and am out $425.00. I would like my money returned and to have no further dealings with this person. Thank You Rick King
"

I have no idea exactly what he's referring to but apparently I've been raping and pillaging worldwide for vintage hockey cards.

On the Canada Post printed postage sticker as well as the customs form it has .41kgs as the weight. Suprisingly enough I weighed the envelope
as I received it with no cards and it weighed exactly .41kgs.

Obviously this was some sort of evil plan by Rick and hopefully Paypal will come through for me. But at the least I want to bring this to the attention
of as many vintage hockey card collectors as possible.

Rob

I'm sorry to hear about this!I think a big thing for you is the weight issue, you need to scan the package showing the .41kg and then prove thats the weight of the package when empty, send those scans to paypal. Good luck with this!

Andrew

Gotta ask, why would you would work out a big deal like this with someone who you "have had some animosity towards...in the past."

I've dealt with people with whom I've had a bad transaction with before again because the product was just too tempting to pass up ("the ends justify the means"). However, you get bit if you lie down with snakes too often.

"Gotta ask, why would you would work out a big deal like this with someone who you "have had some animosity towards...in the past."

In retrospect?... stupidity I guess. He recently bought some items from me on Ebay and everything went smoothly.
We had a few email exchanges and everything seemed fine. Keep in mind the animosity was on his side not mine. I
thought what ever the issue was had been resolved or forgotten.

Fair enough. I thought the "worldwide" thing was a bit over the top BTW.

I think it is amazing how Rob Hartman can turn things around to make me look like the bad guy. I am the one that has had bad dealings in the past with him and I am the stupid one that thought we could deal again without any problems.
I remember a deal last year with Mr Hartman where I sent the cards Feb 1st and by March 1st he still hadn't fulfilled his end of the deal by sending cards to me. I waited almost two months before the cards arrived.
This deal about the weight of the package is just another scam by Mr Hartman. Other dealers out there have also had problems with this guy. I have acually had phone calls from other dealers about this person and his ways.His ebay name is Preston and if you take a look at his auctions you will see what I mean. Way over priced and wait forevery for deliver.
The reason why I put the claim in at Paypal was becasue after I heard there was no cards in the envelope an alarm went off and so I emailed him and after a while I still heard nothing back I thought I would be the guy out $425.00 not him because I sent him the money through paypal. I think you can see my reasoning.
I received the cards a few days later and have removed the claim from paypal.
I have done all I can to be fair and I gained nothing in the deal. I would like to hear others feedback who have dealt with this guy before to see who is the bad guy here.
Thanks for your time
Rick King

I have dealt with Rob Hartman on and off eBay and have NOT had any problems.

Thanks,
Paul

Rick,

Without taking sides, how do you explain the statement :

On the Canada Post printed postage sticker as well as the customs form it has .41kgs as the weight. Suprisingly enough I weighed the envelope
as I received it with no cards and it weighed exactly .41kgs.

I don't want to take sides in who's right or wrong on this particular deal, and I don't like participating in these types of he said/she said free-for-alls, but I feel I have something to add here.

I had a bad experience with Rob last fall, and his aggressive, adversarial approach to handling the dispute left me questioning whether or not to continue buying cards online.

I am not surprised he has brought his dispute into this forum in hopes of defaming Rick's character, and am not surprised Rick King has countered with a very different version of the story.

My experience wasn't about shipping or wait times, it was about inaccurate grading of an expensive raw card. Rob told me that once the card left his hands he couldn't be responsible for its grade and would not offer any sort of refund or exchange for it. I've since stopped buying any raw cards over $100 online, but didn't really need that "caveat emptor" lesson rubbed in my face to change my buying practises.

My advice to you both is to settle your dispute amongst yourselves by treating each other fairly and honoring your deal. Only the two of you can do that.

Thanks,

Nathanael

I hate to hear about trades that don't go well. I agree that none of us can comment on a trade that we weren't involved in.

I can say that I have purchased cards from Rob before, on more than 1 occasion, and I never had any problems at all. The cards I purchased were all graded, so I didn't have any worries about the condition of the cards.

I truly hope that the 2 people involved in this transaction can work out a solution that will make them both happy.

Personally, I rarely buy raw cards at all anymore, and many others have also adopted this policy. It's too bad because it wasn't that long ago that all cards were sold raw.

Hi,

I have completed deals with both the individuals implicated in this tread and have not had any issue's persay. I have bought from Rob Hartman (Mostly graded) and bought/sold/traded with Rick King without a hitch other than slow delivery from Rob Hartman which I usually am not to concerned over.

Hopefully as Natanael has stated the parties can resolve there issues as adults. There is a correct version to the story and hopefully calmer heads prevail and get it resolved.

As for raw cards I also have had many recent dealings where condition has been overstated or flaws omitted with a bad scan. Most have been rectified without to much hassle, but it has also soured my experience.

Hopefully we can all do our part to keep their standards up so as to keep the raw card market going! It does not take that long to give a card the once over in proper lighting and divulge all faults whatever your grading guidelines. It just makes for a much smoother transaction and who wants hassles.

In my experience you have three types of sellers. Diligent,shady, and un-educated.

Rob (Billyberu)

#1, I stand by my story on the package sent to me. .41 KGs is what it is. I have the proof. And what's
up with the Paypal claim after two weeks. Let's be honest if I hadn't shipped the package Express mail
with a tracking number Rick would have went through with the claim.

#2, Yes I can be a slow shipper.

#3, Check my feedback on Ebay (*preston). Which is about the only place I sale my extra cards. Other
references can be provided.

#4, Rick I've asked you before when you've made these allegations about me ripping people off.
Please by all means name names. Let everyone see the list. If I have done wrong I will make amends.
Let's see the "Worldwide" list. I want to know who deems you so important that they would consult
you about me. You refuse to answer through private email so please post the extensive list here and I
will do my best to resolve each and every issue. By the way other than slow shipping when I have ever
ripped you off.

#5, Regarding the Nathanael card. I hate selling raw cards because of this. I bought the card in question
from a dealer graded as NMMT. It's a very tough card. I provided large High Quality scans front
and back. I sold the card as is. I compared the card to other graded NMMT cards of the same year and
I felt it deserved the grade. Although it was OC which was clearly visible and stated as such. We all
know grading is very subjective. Anybody who buys graded or has cards graded knows this.

Rick is almost correct on the deal we made last year. I just checked my email. The deal
was finalized at the end of January. I sent him money via paypal on 2/6/07. I hadn't really
traded with Rick before and wanted to get my cards before I sent the cards I'd owed him.
Although I had sent the $240.

I received an email on 3/12/07 stating he received the cards.

Everybody wins. Money delivered.. and all the cards delivered. Why the rage?

I am not about to disclose names to you as they are people that I deal with. I have had the phone conversations and the emails about your dealings and I want to stop myself dealing with you and so do a lot of other people.
You say about our deal last year and said it only took you 6 weeks to send the cards. You said that you had never dealt with me before and wanted to wait until you received your cards. I think anybody in this forum would agree that is not fair and I think that is the way you run most of your deals where you have the UPPER HAND.
This will be my last instalment on this forum about you as I do not wish to waste my time on a person like yourself.
Happy collecting

What is that suppose to mean and what have I done to you to respond this way towards me.

No one cares what you have to say Larry. Stop posting here unless you have something constructive to say. You are the last one that should be jumping in on other peoples business. JIM.

This shipping issue is only what Hartman says. I don't think there is any truth to it and just another one of his ploys. He is a master at this!!!!
Sure he can say all day that what the weight was but have we seen any evidence or do we know if Hartman has tampered with it himself as I wouldn't put it pass him.
Just remember there is two sides to every story.
Rick

I have never dealt with either of you before and I certainly don't like making any judgements on your trustworthiness. However, Rob, any time two individuals who haven't previously dealt with each other agree on a trade then I believe both are obligated to ship simultaneously unless there is an agreement before hand for one to wait until he receives his cards. There is always the element of trust involved in these trades. I used to execute 5 or 6 trades a week but since half of my hobby is non-vintage and I don't collect anything after 2000 I've really been slowed down in the trade arena by all the collectors only looking for current stuff. I have had agreements with individuals that allowed them to wait until they received my cards and I've also had individuals who unilaterally did that to me. I guess that just goes with the territory sometimes, but I don't like it either. Best advice I can give you both is to stay away from each other from now on.

Package as received..
Bubble envelope, carboard, paper(copy of email) = 41 Grams
(As noted on the Postage decal and customs form)

Same package with 2 PSA Graded cards put on top = 125 Grams

Two PSA Graded cards with no packaging material = 85 Grams.

Photos available.