What are the forum members opinions on the first series vs. second series in rarity/price.
Sets in 1971-72 to 1972-73 have had their second and even third series risen in price for commons. So why do some vary in common prices and other don't?? 1968 to 1970 don't and neither does 1973-74.
Should they be worth more or not?
Nice picture below of the O-Pee-Chee slitter cutting up some fresh 1970-71 cards. I am sure she cut and made the same amount of cards for each series.
bobby,i am glad you brought this up.
first off i dont have a clue why the beckett has some commons in higher series at a higher price.it makes you wonder where they got this information.information from hearsay is not good enough,you must have back up facts and numbers why a series will be higher in value than another series.
i think 71-72 opc series 1+2 should be equal in value.there are a lot of us that experienced buying these cards first hand,i myself bought these cards when they were at the store and i do not recall having a harder time buying the second series cards as they where around even in the middle of the summer after the hockey season was over.
the checklist #111 should in no way be $500 where as the #264 checklist is only $175 and is the last card in the set? i brought this up before on this forum but i think it is just wasted words as some guides/sellers and collectors just can not take the truth in the hobby,even the uncut sheets so both checklists as regular run cards.imagine if reality kicked in for the #111 checklist being worth less than the #264 checklist. those people that paid huge $$$ for the #111 will be very upset.like that saying goes "sometimes the truth hurts"
for 1972-73 the only series that might be a little bit of a premium is the third series because of the WHA'S first cards but as far as all the nhl cards go i think they should be of equal value for the same reasoning i gave on the 71-72 cards,they where plentifull to buy for that year.i had no problem making that set in person back then.also i personally remember kids buying more of the second series cards than any other series so they can get the team canada inserts as it was a big hit within the o-pee-chee packs.
The rumour that's going around is that some of the 1971-72 OPC 2nd Series may have actually been printed by Topps via vending cases for a USA customer ??? I know it sounds bizarre, BUT.....they are 2x more available than the 1st series cards....plus the cutting just doesn't look "O Pee Chee" It wouldn't surprise me if others were done too(ie: 1969-70 2nd series) The pop reports should reflect the abundance of the series -------- why ??
Some cards in the 1972-73 OPC 3rd series are genuinely tough ie: #269- Jim Roberts, #253-The Stanley Cup Trophy etc. they consistantly sell for $20-30 in NM+
Hi, it doesn't really answer your question about the 1971 series, but 1969 OPC high series had a combination of plenty of doubleprints, and lots of vending material that survived intact to now....just look at the ebay listings from "4 sharp corners recently.
PSA 10's in the high series are going for less than $100 now.....as the population expands......
"i think 71-72 opc series 1+2 should be equal in value.there are a lot of us that experienced buying these cards first hand,i myself bought these cards when they were at the store and i do not recall having a harder time buying the second series cards"
Donald ... probably true for the wax product.
it's just that x amount of years later those pesky 2nd series vending cards are now hitting the market.
I, like a lot of us remember buying these packs and chewing away at 2 or 3 pieces of gum at a time.The best memory of opening these were when you opened one and you would get 2 of the same cards back to back.I even remember getting back to back checklists and saying awwwww.In my opinion the second series of 71 and 72 should be worth more because at my school the interest dropped way off and not nearly as many packs were sold.3rd series 72 should be treated as gold.Buy the way does anyone have a 3rd series 72 display box ? That is one hard box.
dana
I always figured the 111 checklist is worth more because as the cards were newly released, more kids would mark them up right away. The series 2 checklist may not have been marked up quite as much as kids lost interest over that time.
I have never understood how a 1971-72 OPC Checklist series 1 the #111 is worth more than any other checklist even in prior years, what is so special about this one? AND is Worth more than Tallboy checklists, COME_ON! Someone is on crack with this type of pricing.
Someone please explain this to me as I just don't get it.
JOE SAID" The rumour that's going around is that some of the 1971-72 OPC 2nd Series may have actually been printed by Topps via vending cases for a USA customer.
Joe, I can explain a few things that might help with this rumour...
Topps generally issued their cards in November to the public in the USA starting in 1968 and up.
The tenplated tin sheets were sent up to OPC and they would adjust and add cards and change traded players...etc.
This was done through late November and December. The first series were issued by OPC in the first week of January, as a rule...the second series were issued about 6 weeks later. Now when did they have time to send the sheets down to Topps so they could print up the cards, the stock wouldn't have been OPC, they would be on USA card stock.
But lets take it a step further, OPC was known for not sharpening the slitter, when it was sharpened (randomly), the vending cases could have been right after this was done.
Please remember I have talked with many old OPC employee's, the guys and gals who were right in the midst of things at this time, so I am just relaying what has been told to me.
"I always figured the 111 checklist is worth more because as the cards were newly released, more kids would mark them up right away. The series 2 checklist may not have been marked up quite as much as kids lost interest over that time."
sorry Phite,this comment does not make sence to me at all.
how about all the other years prior to 1971 and after 1971,those checklists should be $500 too because kids marked those more in series 1 and then they lost interest in the second series,i dont think so.if we judged checklists based on what you said then how about the early checklists from topps where there was only one in the set.what should they be worth $1000?
I'm with Bobby on the production runs. I'd imagine the OPC business plan was set at the beginning of the fiscal year, and I'd imagine wholesalers and retailers would order the same amount of product in both series knowing it was released in series to ensure the maximum amount of sales.
Overstock would therefore be of similar quantity. I think over the years some has survived against the odds, intact and untouched. PSA pop reports are not the only indicator of production run #'s.
As for the #111 checklist, it just is outrageously expensive. I'm not going to try to comprehend why.
This message has been edited by frozencaribou on Sep 3, 2008 11:27 PM
BobbyB .......OK, if not printed ~ how about cut ?? ~~ It's possible OPC sent finished skids ( pallets) of the sheets to Topps ~~ Topps would simply cut them for the client. The fact that it's the 2nd series that seems in question, and the fact 2nd series PSA pop reports waaaay out number the 1st series leads me to believe the customer simply wanted the expanded more complete version that the Topps Set did not provide.
Also it sure seems like alot of the vending cards that seem to be surfacing lately are in the US.
Joe, we know that vending cases that were found usually has the best cuts, 1973-74 opc vending cards are great too but the packs had poorer cuts. This year also two difference card stocks, light and dark (topps and opc types), this would make anyone believe that the printers used whatever similar cardboard stock they had on hand.
Sending sheets down to the USA to cut for a big customer is a real long stretch.
In the Factory picture I posted there are a row of these slitters, vending could have been used on a nice sharpened one.
On another note, I don't remember any vending machines that had hockey cards in them at this time, maybe these were sold to larger distributors as factory sets, such as this advertisement.
Joe, yes, it doesn't say OPC but made only in Canada is pretty much that.
I think Vending cases weren't so much vending but supplying companys such as these to distribute sets. I don't know why topps would just cut opc cards and sell them in the US, the main reason OPC took over for Topps in the 50's was to eliminate the tarrifs and duties on shipping them over.
Like I said about 73-74 OPC, two stocks used and sharp cuts on the vending...
I will ask around again and see what more I can come up with.
I have searched for 1972 OPC cards for years at shows. The first series (1-110) is very easy to find. Almost everybody who carries 72's has plenty. Same with cards #'d 111-209. I also find pleny of WHA cards. It took me no time at all to complete the WHA series in NM - NMMT condition. Cards numbered 210-289 are fairly difficult to find. I need 9 cards to complete the set (231, 237, 257, 258, 263, 268, 270, 276 and 289) and all are from this series.
For 71-72 OPC I noticed no difference whatsoever in completing the set. The #111 checklist card has always been extremely difficult to find in NM or better. I have no idea why but I cannot quibble with the book prices when the checklist card usually meets book price.
Because the book price for this card has been high for too many years, that is why it is in high demand, this is a popular set with many people chasing which over the years has taken most of the higher grades out of the running.
The Brit Selby no trade in Beckett guides for 20 bux ...why does it sell for hundreds of dollars every time, yet the book price stays the same, no one has done any serious price altering in years and I think that time has come.
Much like the Laval Dairy set, even though it was never issued by Laval Dairy, (Bedard & Donaldson), people still call it what they are use to, change is good if its factual.
The hobby has stuck with the old way of thinking and we need to clean house, this is why I write the articles for Beckett, to help change and keep the hobby informed, yet they print my stories and they don't change the information in their guides?
Time to make a new guide and put hockey in the front seat for a change!
In my collecting experience I have seen 10 71-72 OPC 264 checklists to every 1 111? Shortprint or not? Who knows!
1972-73 # 210-289 I also find hard to find in single form. I have had monster boxes of these and always very few of this series contained within? WHA seem to be more readily available?
The PSA pop report has:(not that the pop report means everything)
1969-70 - 1st series 43($125) graded, 2nd series 19 ($200) graded.
1970-71 - 1st series 41($125) graded, 2nd series 31($125) graded.
1971-72 - 1st series 87($500) graded. 2nd series 119($150) graded.
Now, do guides determine who is on the checklist that determines the value or is it the oldest one is worth more (which is certainly not the case with the pricing).
The 1971-72 1st vs 2nd series checklist is about 1/3 more graded 2nd series.
Collectively, there is not much consistency as to why which ones are worth more than others.
A major problem with adjusting prices is that collectors who have paid allot for these cards due to the book prices, would raise hell if they were adjusted accordingly.
Many people were upset over the change in date of the 1937-38 World Wide Gum issue, which changed a few rookie cards, imagine paying for a psa 8 of one of these rookies and then finding out the date has been wrong all these years, making your psa 8 rookie card a common!!
End result, change is good for the hobby's future, if we don't adjust along the way the hobby will not advance to where it could be.
I remember collecting the 1971-72's as a kid. It was pretty easy to swing trades back then ie: i'll trade you a Cournoyer and a Mahovlich for an Espo and a Hodge. Pretty straight forward deal...right?? Now if i was to offer up a Cournoyer and the Checklist(#111) The deal became NO DEAL!! ~ Afterall checklists don't score goals or make saves. The same appied if you were playing a game like closest to the wall ........if i'm throwing an Orr ..... there's no way in hell your throwing a Checklist sooooo you'd better cough up a Dryden or some other star.
Simply put ~ the checklists basically had no value,after you collected the first one ....... so consequently and i speak from personal experience any checklist collected after the first one was usually tossed.
I think Checklist #111 is an anomaly though, and i've tried to get that answer for years too as to why it's so expensive. But when you consider 1-how many were made 2-got marked up. 3-survived. it will surely equal **Supply & Demand** hence the price.
All a person has to do is track sales and the frequency it turns up.(talkin unmarked NM-MT) and you'll see the Beckett (and i'm no fan of Beckett) .... is right on the money and actually on the low side $$$$ for a strict high grade copy.
I realize Supply and Demand is a Lame-O answer. But with most cards with book high values, you'll notice, they tend to start coming out of the woodwork. Case in point the 72 WHA logo's .... once they appreciated to a certain point they started to get listed more frequently and consequently have leveled off in price. You'd think the same would apply if you had a $500.00 checklist, but i haven't see it.
Maybe some of the Registry Boys can help out ... as to why ?? I've asked this question for numerous years and all i've ever got > was the Lame-O (in not so many words) "Supply and Demand" answer.
""" the checklist #111 should in no way be $500 where as the #264 checklist is only $175 and is the last card in the set? i brought this up before on this forum but i think it is just wasted words as some guides/sellers and collectors just can not take the truth in the hobby,even the uncut sheets show both checklists as regular run cards.imagine if reality kicked in for the #111 checklist being worth less than the #264 checklist. those people that paid huge $$$ for the #111 will be very upset.like that saying goes "sometimes the truth hurts" """
more wasted words----no one wants to fess up to the real truth about this checklist #111 because of all the stupid money spent on this card.there has been absolutely no comments or hearsay in the past 18 years that proves this card is tougher than the last number checklist #264.each uncut sheet had one of each checklist making them equal but dont forget the #264 checklist is the last card in the set to boot.the hobby is brain washed over this checklist on how tough it is,sure it is in high demand because of its $500 price tag and of course it will have a higher population than the second series checklist because of the high amount of dollars its worth 'so they say'.
a lot of people keep bringing up that theory that the first checklist was marked more often than the second checklist but if this is the case why arent the 1st series checklists from all the previous years $500.some of us in the hobby do know the truth and some choose to ignore the truth but the truth will be reality one day!
Donald ....
"some of us in the hobby do know the truth and some choose to ignore the truth but the truth will be reality one day!"
Well i hope your right, i also hope i'll still be around to see it, because frankly i could use one.LOL But you've haven't provided any facts to support the case. Frankly i couldn't care less if the Checklist was $50 or $500.
You would think if you owned a $500 piece of 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 of cardboard you would see alot more than the few you see in any given year. You are clearly wrong on the availability in compared the checklist #264 though. My experience is similar to Rob's ....... for every (unmarked) 10-15 264's i only see one #111..........(clearly the vending factor)
"LOL But you've haven't provided any facts to support the case. Frankly i couldn't care less if the Checklist was $50 or $500."
joe the facts i provided are photos of the uncut sheets awhile back which clearly show one checklist on each sheet of series 1 and 2,which clearly proves they are equal to any other years production.
also i dont believe there is 10 to 15 #264 over one #111.
i am just glad i bought my #111 checklist when the price was fair.collectors buying that #111 today are getting ripped off. hey if todays collectors want to spend big bucks on that card go ahead,i am just trying to help everyone out by providing people with good information.
"the facts i provided are photos of the uncut sheets awhile back which clearly show one checklist on each sheet of series 1 and 2,which clearly proves they are equal to any other years production."
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
One small missing intangible ---- *** PRODUCTION ***
or in other words allocation of press time to any given series.(or the theory of 2nd series vending (regardless who cut them)as noted in prior posts.
I vividly recall when I collected the OPC 71-72 set how difficult it was to pull out the 1st series checklist from a fresh pack. It was one of the last cards that I was able to pull out before I could complete the first series- and I was only able to pull one out from maybe 25 packs that I had bought. Every kid at the corner store we would hang out at lunch or after school was looking for the #111 check list - it was near impossible to find. We had no explanation for it back then. We all looked liked traders on the trading floor of the stock exchange - going from one trader post to another to see if it the #111 check list was available for trade.
I don't think there was a tougher card to get from 1968 onwards than this one card.
Great collection memories as a kid that I will never forget.
Seems like we have a problem here with trying to agree on something. I had no problems getting a 111 checklist back in the day, actually I gave it away everytime I would get one as I wasn't a checklist guy.
Someone would have to prove production before the assumption is given, they produced the same amount of cards for both series, but vending could be a variable and MAY have made some 2nd series just for that, but you have to prove it. The psa pop report doesn't show much difference.
I posted the sheet of the 1972-73 OPC Team Logos and there is proof through that, that the short prints or over prints are what they are. I even wrote an article in Beckett about the Team Crests and gave the print numbers, but alas, no proper changes in the price guide acording to the SP's reported.
Proof is everyting, too many times this hobby has been filled with rumour and heresay. The old saying is "those convinced against thier opinion, are still of the same opinion in thier hearts".
Prove to me anything about this #111 that makes it $500, actual or factual and then we can talk, as I will keep an open mind.
The discussion seems to be focused too much on facts. All card prices depend on an intangible allure that doesn't always fit into the logic we've created about "card value".
I'd say the incredible spikes in card prices of low pop PSA graded vintage cards in recent years are the real head scratchers in comparison to the Checklist discussion. $1800 for a Paul Popeil 1971-72 OPC? $600 plus for high grade commons who sell for less than $20 in raw nr-mt?
At least with the 1971-72 OPC checklist, there is a sizable transaction history to back up its price, however dubiously it was established.
With some of these registry fuelled bidding wars, it is literally the minds of 15-20 people who are changing the way cards are priced for the whole hobby.
Unless we can confirm that OPC produced more second series for vending over the first series we cannot speculate this to be true because if were wrong, this creates a false sense of value. And if this was so, it would also be the same in the years prior but no other set has this particularly high value checklist.
Please remember that most of these prices were set by but a few of the early dealers long long ago and we know that time has taught us that the past shouldn't set the pace for the future when the hobby hit the stages of critical mass.
The 111 checklist is subjective to the point that it is one of the more favourite sets of people born in the late 50's and 60's, which I think is or was the lions-share of the collector base. This set at one time was the most sought after at one time many years ago. But the allure of this 111 checklist is only fueled by its high book price of more recent years.
Does anyone have any old Beckett guides to see when this card made a big jump or was it progressive?
If you were to order the complete Set from this wholesaler you would receive 264 cards in which the last 132 would be OPC (made up from vending cases).
Since Series One Topps cards were essentially the same as their OPC counterpart. The wholesaler would offer the updated Series Two Sets to American Collectors who didn't have access to the OPC wax product.
Talk to the MA based seller who seems to have an endless supply of PSA 8, 9 & 10 slabs
Joe, we've already established the second series theory but does that mean there were no first series vending made.
Now this little $10 ads that were placed in the newspapers back then, would they support an over 3 to 1 ratio of 111 to 264 checklist price difference, well, I think not.
Lets say OPC made 500,000 sets this year, how many sets do you think were made for these rogue dealers, a few thousand!? Pretty small when looking at the big picture.
IF I were making a price guide, would this little advertisement you've shown give me enough evidence to price the second series checklist less than 1/3 of the first....
I seem to recall Cartophilium from Montreal selling second series sets (133-264) long after selling out of first series sets. Larry Fritch's may have been the same. I do not know if they were from wax or vending.
still no one making sence here,what makes you guys think that topps did not run that add for other years,they did.they have been discovered in some news prints.
also look at all the second series 1969-70 opc vending cards discovered in recent years,it proves they did this before.
i remember when len pottie purchased a ton of vending opc cards from 1973-74 many years back.it had series one and two cards!!
it is just a matter of time that more vending cards will be discovered,believe me opc and topps had a lot of vending cards for dealers for almost every year from 1968,there out there.
i am "WRONG WRONG WRONG" but at least i go by solid facts not hearsy/rumours or pop reports.
joe1 quotes-----"WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
One small missing intangible ---- *** PRODUCTION ***
or in other words allocation of press time to any given series.(or the theory of 2nd series vending (regardless who cut them)as noted in prior posts."
joe if we go by your theory here and the add you posted which are around for other years too that means the 1969 checklists should be $500 each.check the pop report on a #132 opc 1969 checklist,i bet it is lower than the opc 1971 #111 checklist.
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 8, 2008 6:12 PM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 8, 2008 6:09 PM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 8, 2008 6:08 PM
i have been following this thread for awhile,i must say that i have to agree with Donald's opinions because his makes more sense.
why would topps or o-pee-chee change anything after the start of the 1968 year. when production of topps was USA distributed and o-pee-chee was CANADA distributed.
production must have stayed the same back then wether it be for regular cards within packs and boxes or vending boxes. that ad Joe shows was probably run before 1971 and after 1971 as it was topps way of offering the other series to the USA,who knows maybe the first series you got from that ad was in fact o-pee-chee card.
back then it was about the gum not the cards so why change there ways?
sorry but i also believe that #111 checklist is out of wack with its $500 price tag.
The fact that Beckett lists the Checklist at $500 in NM condition is irrelevant.
Many modern cards, especially graded cards are vastly overpriced (relative to what they sell for in Beckett). Just because Beckett says an OPC Brendan Shanahan rookie in a 9 is worth $125 does not mean anything when they sell on ebay for $30.
But the #111 checklist sells in the $500 and up range for NM every time they come up for sale. If that is what it sells for that is what the guide should state.
Is it overpriced based on production numbers? Probably, but apparently enough people need the card to keep it in that range.
How many people actually still look in Beckett to determine a value before bidding on ebay or at auction, especially for vintage cards?
I clicked the link which is over a year old now. I didn't realize you guys are as passionate over the #111 pricing as you are. Also claiming the #111 should be priced accordingly with the 69-70 or 70-71 set checklists **isn't valid**, because we're talking about different years, different sets with totally different allure and demand. That being said how about something a little more more compelling besides the one checklist per sheet fact. How about some raw data over the last year of realized $$sales$$ between both checklists??
I realize (you'll argue)but it's not the only indicator of an items true value
and i'll argue ... yeahhhhhh just a helleva indictor.
I haven't bought a Beckett in over 15 years ........ but i think they've got this one right!!! At the end of the day ~~ your items only worth what someone's willing to pay for it.
If there is a book price of $500 on the 111 and a $150 book price on the 264 checklists, then what should the sell for...book prices guide bidders whether they are true or not. This one is not.
The allure is the dollar value on this card, put that dollar value on a previous years checklist and you will see the allure increase dramatically.
"How many people actually still look in Beckett to determine a value before bidding on ebay or at auction, especially for vintage cards?"
"i haven't bought a beckett for 15 years" BO
com'mon guys,you actually think every vintage collector buys high graded cards or pays over book value for there raw vintage cards !!!!!!!!!
some of you just do not get it,the hobby is not just about high grade cards,for some having fun collecting the cards at there budget is fine with them.
there are a lot of people that do buy vintage cards based on what a guide has it listed for,thats why it is called a guide.those people are very happy to buy a card that a guide lists for a $100 and get the card for a lot less or a little less,it happens everyday on ebay or at the big or small local shows.
i dont care if i argue till i am blue in the face but what some of you say is an insult to collectors that collect with a budget in mind.sure some people have unlimited funds to buy that psa 9 or 10 1954 topps common for thousands but i never insult them.
what ever,wasted words again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 9, 2008 1:00 AM
BobbyB.......
"book prices guide bidders whether they are true or not." > This one is not.??
Are you suggesting then Checklist #111 is artificially inflated and needs to be more inline with #264 ?? ...... and the nice few #111's that turn up in any given year that consistently go for huge $$$$$$ is irelevant, because it's been misguided ??
Again I will stress that I have seen 10 264 checklists in NM or better condition to every one 111 in that same condition. That includes eBay or local/big shows. Why that is true is the real issue here. If the survival #'s are comparable as some have suggested then why hasn't more high grade # 111's come out of the woodwork? Maybe they were checked alot more? Just a question!
Has someone else noticed an abundance of # 111's?
Is it overpriced? Possibly...should 68,69,70 checklists be the same value if this $$$ is not fabricated...probably as they are as hard if not harder to find in nice condtion as the # 111!
"Maybe they were checked alot more? Just a question!"
Another intangible could be the Canadiens Stanley Cup Victory in 70-71. By historical standards it proved to become one of the biggest upsets in sports history.The backbone to the win was an unknown a rookie goaltender who eventually also won the Conn Smythe.
I know alot of kids that eagerly waited for Dryden's Rookie arrival I vividly recall opening packs and the jaw dropping look when i saw the Habs goalie in full pose with his mask on which was totally unheard of
back in the day, (A truly outstanding card!!) and the source of pride one must have had checking him off on the checklist.(especially for Habs fans)
But to answer the question ....... i'd say YES they were ~ hence their scarcity today!!
"Maybe they were checked alot more? Just a question!"
Another intangible could be the Canadiens Stanley Cup Victory in 70-71. By historical standards it proved to become one of the biggest upsets in sports history.The backbone to the win was an unknown a rookie goaltender who eventually also won the Conn Smythe.
I know alot of kids that eagerly waited for Dryden's Rookie arrival I vividly recall opening packs and the jaw dropping look when i saw the Habs goalie in full pose with his mask on which was totally unheard of
back in the day, (A truly outstanding card!!) and the source of pride one must have had checking him off on the checklist.(especially for Habs fans)
But to answer the question ....... i'd say YES they were ~ hence their scarcity today!!
Well, it will be a cold day in hell when a 1971 #111 checklist should book for more than a 1964 Tallboy checklist series 1 or 2...put it in perspective, please.
"...should 68,69,70 checklists be the same value if this $$$ is not fabricated...probably as they are as hard if not harder to find in nice condtion as the # 111!"
hey rob finally a great comment that i totally agree with.
Your gripes are ONE out of a thousand we could probably complain about, that's why i stopped buying it. A collector just needs just one guide for (vintage)reference purposes only, that it!!. Who cares about the new stuff, but if you do?? buy it every month then. At the end of the day ~ YOU WANT IT -- YOU NEED IT -- YOU BUY IT ....END OF STORY!! Who cares what it guides at. THE MARKET SETS THE PRICE!!! That's my perspective .....
You want more perspective ??
Try justifing a one inch square of a players jersey that was made by Upper Deck a month ago, that's worth more than the two checklists we're debating (put together).
But seriously... I think checklist #111(NM-MT) see's $600.00 ++ in the not too distant future.(the demand is strong & there) The 71-72 OPC Set is the most worked on and most popular of ALL Hockey Sets ~ regardless of what you guys think. You can start another thread then ........ and we can pick this up again.
"Does anyone have any old Beckett guides to see when this card made a big jump or was it progressive?" -bobby
I've taken a look back through my guides-
Sluggers, which was a card store way back when, produced a price guide in the late 80's. Mike Squire was the guy behind this, but I only know from the cover page, not from meeting him. From the May 1990 guide, here is the 71-72 pricing:
#111- $15
#264- $20
From Beckett #1 October 1990
#111- $12
#264- $12
By issue #50 Beckett had jumped to $300 and #264 was $100, and #111 was #14 on beckett's all time most significant cards list. So from 1991-1994, there was a massive shift in how the card was perceived by the hobby, or at least by beckett to the hobby. By the way, the Vezina C55 #38 was #18 on the list.
I think that demand came mostly from Canadian collectors who, previous to the card boom, didn't find it necessary to have an unmarked checklist to feel happy about completing a nice set. With that evolution in thinking, coupled with the scarcity craze, the 111 became what it is today.
In 1996 or 1997 the card jumped to $500 and has stayed steady in beckett ever since, just like virtually every other vintage card in their price guide.
The card sells consistently for more than $500 in NM 7. For once the guide price is accurate. Why should a guide lower the price of something because people feel it should not sell for that much. The guide should reflect the market. The current market for this card is $500 or more in NM. There are a ton of cards in the guides that do not sell for anywhere near their book price on a consistent basis. Those are the cards that need to be lowered.
does anyone have the beckett issue where they claimed the card was a short print.
it would be cool to see what they said at that point or even post a scan of that article.i remember after that article came out the checklist really took off in value within the next few months.if it wasnt for that article i dont think that card would be where its at today in value as a lot of the other checklists are tougher to get in high grade.
i understand why it gets the big money today but if that checklist wasnt fabricated as a so called short print or what ever that article said back in the day,it would have never been worth what it is today.
that article or hearsy or rumour from that day was the only reason this checklist went sky high.look at the older price listings,that checklist was pretty even with all of the other ones.
what really made this card hit $500 in a price guide,an article from a dealer's rumour screaming "short print short print"?
sorry i just dont understand why this card climbed so dramaticly at that point of time.
bobbyb .........the counter argument seems to revolve around what's perceived to be the "mispricing" of 64-70 checklists then.........because if thats the case, this debate about #111 wouldn't be taken place today....... would it ??!! ~ thats unless you still believe the #111 is overpriced regardless of recent sales and availability. It needs to be more inline with the 264 because they were both issued in equal quantities(aka Donald)
talk to several CAN/US major dealers and find out if the ratio (which i've noted) of 10+(unmarked 264's) to 1 (111) is valid ??
i'd be curious to find out the results.
and if it is valid .........
what happened to all the #111's ??? ........ which is what you should be focusing your attention on and not some stupid guide price in which modern issues /jerseys,patches,auto's etc. seems to have taken over.
So some turnip shows up at your table with a NM-MT 1968-69 Checklist to sell..... you don't offer him 50% or 75% of guide ......... you offer him FULL book.
Throw it up for auction the next day and triple your money guaranteed. Dealers realize "it's" a joke!!
oh boy,lets end this thread before everyone starts to use fowl italian language.
that "kapeech" is pure sapranos stuff.LOL
This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 13, 2008 3:18 PM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 13, 2008 3:01 PM This message has been edited by danthevintageman on Sep 13, 2008 2:58 PM
Someone asked if anyone had any old Beckett's. I have them all up to about # 75.
I will not go into detail but # 264 started ahead of #111 from 1990 to about 1991. Then 111 started to rise slowly and 264 stayed where it was at. There was a period of about 7-8 months where neither moved in 1993. Then #111 jumped from $300 to $350 (no up arrows to indicate this in the book?)
Then there was a top 50 list (I beleive issue 50) in which it said 111 was ranked 13 on the all time list. It went to $500 rather quickly fom there? So I guess there really isnt much meat why it got there other than some editior's list? It is a great set and my favorite...could be part of the reason?
I beleive all early checklists should have significant value and be the highest priced card in any set without doubt. I do not dispute # 111 price but other checklists should be inline with it!
For those of you who think the the #111 OPC PSA 8 Checklist is overpriced,please touch base with me with your price. I would be very interested in buying them..... I can be reached at ds1961mtl@yahoo.com
