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RUDY-HOW ABOUT A PHOTO MATCH ON THESE?

November 10 2005 at 9:53 AM
HOWARD WOLF  (Login hblakewolf)

 
Good morning Forum readers:

As an avid and longtime Phillies equipment collector, m,y interest is peaked anytime I locate a nice item for sale.

Please reference the current American Memorabila auction. Offered is a pair of 1980's Pete Rose spikes. I'm not a spike expert, however, ask someone on the Forum for assistance on this lot (#228):

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?auction_id=24523&aucsearch=pete%20rose&anyallexact=exact&aucperiod=&auclisttype=&auccat=&tfm_orderby=&tfm_order=

I have 2 serious concerns with these:
1. Rose wore Mizuno while playing with the Phillies
2. Likewise, he wore metal spikes, not plastic as used on these Nikes.

I have hundreds of photos of Rose with the Phillies, and can't seem to locate him wearing these.

Can Rudy or a Pete Rose collector provide photographic evidence of Rose wearing such a pair of spikes with the Phillies?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

 
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AuthorReply
Reid
(Login sportscentury)

Good luck on this one, Rudy!

November 10 2005, 10:05 AM 

Howard,

What I'm surprised you didn't catch is that the Phillies wore maroon shoes, not red. According to my records, they wore maroon shoes that matched the maroon hats and maroon trim on the uniforms (not red). In 1992, when the Phillies introduced their current style uniforms, it was the first time that the shoes were red and they deviated from the maroon color.

Plastic?

How new are those 14s? It looks like they were written on there this morning.

Rudy, you are the man when it comes to providing photos...but man do you have your work cut out for you on this one!

Last thought: is this the correct style of Nike for that era?

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.

 
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rudy
(Login kingjammy)

good luck indeed

November 10 2005, 3:31 PM 


let me preface things by saying i'm not a pete rose, reds, phillies, or cleat expert.

here are the issues i see with the auction cleats though:

- the "14" written inside the cleats doesn't come close to matching rose's handwriting. if he didn't write the 14, who did? howard, you would probably have some examples of rose's handwritten "14" on his cleats. see the image below for this issue.
rose's "4" is pretty consistant. the two horizontals lines almost always are slightly inverted into each other. the "1" on the auction cleat is also a concern.

- the "14", as reid mentioned, looks pretty fresh especially given where it was written and supposedly how long ago. written right on the inside of the cleat on the heel, this would've easily become worn and faded after a short amount of use.

- after an extensive search, i could not find an image of rose wearing anything but mizunos. several different models over the years as well as several different colors, but always mizuno.

- the 'nike' logo on the tongue/lace saver is troublesome. maybe a cleat expert can weigh in. it seems nike used a square logo patch on the tongue/lace saver during the 80s. they changed to a directly embroidered "Nike" swoosh (without square patch) sometime in the early 90's. see pic below.

- as reid mentioned, the color is off for the phillies. for the reds however, it's perfect. the phillies wore maroon shoes. the reds wore that sort of 'fire engine red'.

my guess? a very late 80's/early 90's shoe from the reds lockerroom with a 14 written in by someone other than rose. maybe at best, a nike salesman sample for when rose was managing the reds? almost impossible to have been worn during his phillies playing days given the nike logo. from what i can tell, nike didn't apply their logo like that during the early-mid 80's.

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Rudy.


 
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HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf)

AMERICAN MEMORABILIA-CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THESE CAN BE REAL?

November 10 2005, 3:49 PM 

Rudy-
Simply AMAZING research once again.

If I'm understanding your research correctly, the shoes featured in American Memorabilia's current auction have several flaws:

*The 14 is not in Rose's traditional style
*The style of the shoes was not worn during Roses playing days in Philly, rahter, late 1980's or early 1990's (Rose played in Philly in 1979-1983).
*Your photos clearly show that the Phillies did not wear red, rather, maroon.
*Your photos include a shot of Rose managing, also wearing his usual Mizunos (NOT NIKE).

Given these facts, how can American Memorabila offer these as Rose Phillies game worn spikes, or evern better, how can Lampson write a letter on these? What did Lampson reference in order to write his LOA?

Is it possible to hear from the folks at American Memorabila? Victor? Kieta? James Rast?

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net



 
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Chris Boyd
(Login eGameUsed)

Great Job!

November 10 2005, 4:51 PM 

Great job Rudy! Great questions Howard! I have had conversations lately with some major dealers and aution houses about photo matching. There typical (paraphrased) response is "there is a not a picture of every moment on the field." This was pertaining to various game used gloves and jerseys. I believe that REAL game worn items can easily be photo matched, or at a minimum, style matched. Players wear gloves more than one game, and they also wear jerseys more than one game unless they are the Colorado Rockies. Just as an example, I own exactly 21 Astros jerseys from 2000 to 2005, everyone has been EXACT photomatched, including the all white, all black, and grey jerseys. There is more to photomatching a jersey than a pinstripe. Imagery analysis is a great thing! I even figured out what show size Jeff Bagwell wore in 1991 using imagery analysis techniques to prove a "game used rookie" pairs of Bagwell cleats were fake. Photo history and evidence are awesome! Or maybe it my Chemical Engineering degree making me anal . . . Just my 2 sense! Great work Rudy!

Chris Boyd
http://www.eGameUsed.com
713-385-1155
ccboyd@houston.rr.com

 
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rudy
(Login kingjammy)

Re: AMERICAN MEMORABILIA-CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THESE CAN BE REAL?

November 10 2005, 5:27 PM 


Let's put it this way. You could give the benefit of the doubt on most of the issues, except for one.
While the handwriting clearly isn't Rose's, for example, one could say that a clubhouse attendant or batboy wrote the number in when the shoes were delivered. Fine.
One could also say that, in this instance, Rose specifically special ordered red, as opposed to maroon shoes. Fine.
Finally, it's possible to make a case and say that although he wore Mizuno cleats throughout his entire career, he experimented by trying these Nikes for a few weeks. Fine.
The one thing that is undeniable however is the Nike labelling for the time period.
1979-1983 is a relatively short time period. As it turns out, it seems Nike changed to the labelling seen in the auction cleats around 92/93. Not sure where Rose was during that time. It would be next to impossible for him to have worn these cleats during 79-83. He would've been hard-pressed to have worn them even during his Cinci managing days.

A brief history of Nike cleats during that time period (Note: I couldn't find any 1979 Nike cleats. I'm 99.9% sure though that the auction cleats are not from 1979).

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Rudy.




 
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Jack
(Login JackHE)

Re: AMERICAN MEMORABILIA-CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THESE CAN BE REAL?

November 10 2005, 5:46 PM 

Great research work !! The sooner American Memorabilia understands that they just can't ignore questions and phone calls the sooner they can start to improve their reputation. I had bid on items in the past but cancelled my account several months ago.

 
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Rick
(Login encinorick)

Ok, but what about

November 10 2005, 10:46 PM 

As a previous contributor said awhile ago, this crowd plays favorites. No doubt the Pete Rose item has serious issues, however, what about the so-called 1990 Tommy John LA Dodger gameused jersey in the Greyflannel auction which can't be right because Tommy John didn't play for the Dodgers in 1990 or for that matter any ML team in that year. Who contacted Greyflannel about this little problem? Y'all don't like AMI, that's it. I have enormous respect for the people here, however, let's try and be fair. Even Mears makes mistakes, right?

 
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DJ
(Login OJ-Collector)

Re: Ok, but what about

November 10 2005, 11:09 PM 

I think this board looks for mistakes and I don't think the contributors point their finger at one particular company. A few threads below, a Ripken helmet is discussed from GF. I also think Howard tends to focus more on Phillies stuff. I do find this thread fascinating. The amount of work done with all these images is simply amazing.

DJ

 
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HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf)

AMERICAN MEMORABILIA'S "PHILLIES PETE ROSE SPIKES", CONT.

November 11 2005, 9:38 AM 

Rick-
This "crowd" has no favorites; rather, there are a few auction houses that continue to offer questionable, if not complete bogus items, in each auction. In this case, I have asked the Forum for unbiased proof that the Pete Rose shoes in American Memorabilia’s current auction are legit. With this said, the folks at American Memorabilia could easily respond, or better yet, have their so-called "expert" authenticator of all types of sports equipment, Lou Lampson, address the thread?. Chris at AMI, as well as James Rast, have posted on the Forum. Is it possible for one of these individuals to address this thread? Rudy provided photographic evidence that indicates several flaws with the Rose shoes, and ultimately, that the shoes were manufactured AFTER Rose was out of the game! I posted a question, answers followed that were backed by photographic proof.

In the case of the Tommy John jersey, did you contact Grey Flannel? Did you try to research the jersey via Getty images? Did you ask Rudy for his photographic assistance?

With this said, not only have I questioned items on the forum from just about every major auction house, I have never shown a bias, either. What is obvious is the fact that you have the same auction houses, month after month, who continues to believe they can offer garbage to the hobby without being questioned. Combine this with the fact they these same auction houses knowingly employ authenticators who have been proven to write letters with no factual basis behind them (i.e., Rose shoes, green Ripken St. Pat's jerseys when it has been proven the O's never wore these) and yes Rick, it may appear that there is a bias against some of the auction houses.

Take this one step further. When a MEARS item is questioned, and proven to be bad, they have shown that their 100% money back guarantee is solid, i.e., the Carlton jersey with MEARS letter that Reid Fontaine won and later found to have a restored name-the complete purchase price was refunded. What recourse does the winner of the Rose shoes have? Is Lampson willing to discuss these (we have asked repeatedly on the Forum for a Lampson phone number or contact) or is American Memorabilia willing to issue a refund? Note that the instructions in the front of the recent American Memorabilia catalog clearly reads "ALL SALES FINAL". Other auction houses have the same disclaimer, however, if the item has a MEARS LOA, at least it provides the winner with a 100% money back guarantee.

Troy and the folks at MEARS have repeatedly answered the Forums' questions about specific items, and as such, show accountability. Troy and Dave Bushing answered concerns in a timely fashion, with factual information.

Bottom line-the forum has provided an amazing medium to provide insight about equipment, dealers, auction houses and relevant issues relating to the hobby. For those who continue to expose themselves by offering questionable items, they themselves will be exposed for all of us to read about.

FYI
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

 
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Dave
(Login CollectGU)

Rick...

November 11 2005, 10:51 AM 

I absolutely agree with you that Howard has a particular vendetta against AMI and it is very obvious.. This forum is certainly not fair and balanced, when it comes to auction house criticism. Why don't we hear Howard demanding that Grey Flanel or Vintage respond to this forum when mistakes are found in their auctions - which is easily just as often as AMI. Remember there is always an agenda and many of the posters here consign items to different auction house so they are not going to bite the hand that feeds them..

Howard, why do you continually bring up the St. Patrick's day mistake by Lou (which is every other post), but don't ever bring up any of Dave Bushings well documented mistakes?

 
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HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf)

AMERICAN MEMORABILIA'S ROSE SPIKES-ANSWERS, PLEASE?

November 11 2005, 11:29 AM 

Dave-
It has been well documented that AMI has responded to Forum posts, either by Chris AMI or James Rast. As such, I asked that they once again respond to a very questionable item in their current auction. Likewise, I sent them an email regarding the Rose spikes and have yet to get a response.

When I seek a response from AMI, it is based on their previous behavior on the Forum. They have responded, and provided insight to items in question. As such, I am again asking for them to provide additional information on a current offering in their auction. Although Forum readers have provided amazing evidence that these could not have been worn by Rose, Lou Lampson wrote a LOA, and American Memorabilia is offering them as Rose gamers. What is the LOA and AMI basing this on?

Although we have asked for responses, Grey Flannel and Vintage have no history of ever responding to this Forum-American Memorabilia does.

Agenda? I have made posts about questionable items from Grey Flannel, Vintage, Broadway Rick, Mastro, Lelands, and the folks at MEARS to name a few. Likewise, I have made posts about quite a few other auction houses with questionable items. Your assumptions about a "hidden agenda" make for a great twist to my posts, however, let's deal in facts.

Great point on the St. Pat's jersey. This is yet another example of a collector (in this case, Dan Derluth) purchasing a jersey based on a LOA, and later finding out that both the jersey and letter are not worth a dime! The difference between Lampson and Bushing? Bushing backs up his letters with a 100% money back guarantee. Likewise, Bushing can be contacted through a published phone number and address at MEARS. The forum members have asked for Lamspon’s contact information, however, to this date, AMI, Broadway Rick, etc. will not provide it to individuals seeking it. Bushing makes a money back guarantee, and I have personally seen him refund over $7,000 to Reid Fontaine when he proved the jersey in question was restored. This is called accountability.

FYI
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

 
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Joel Alpert
(Login trsent)

Re: AMERICAN MEMORABILIA'S ROSE SPIKES-ANSWERS, PLEASE?

November 11 2005, 11:51 AM 

I have no idea if the Rose shoes are good or bad, but I can pretty much tell that you are not going to receive a reply from most auction houses by posting on Game Used Forum. I believe there are a few major auction houses that have a no-positing policy on this forum because when they have tried to discuss situations, they have been attacked by the wolves and not been given a fair shake.

If you notice, Troy was off the boards for a while, I see he recently posted again, but I could understand why when he was discussing/defending decisions in the past people attacked him and didn't listen to his side, so he stopped posting for a while.

You want answers? Email the auction house directly, but don't expect them to respond on these boards. I know of three major auction houses that have a company policy not to respond on these boards (and no, I am not naming them, do your own guessing). Do I blame them? Not at all, because when they do come on these boards they are not given a fair discussion.

I know this world is not a perfect place, but common, this public forum is not read by the entire industry, so stop complaining when you do not receive a reply on this forum from the seller or auction house. Email them directly, and if they don't reply to that, then do what you feel you have to do.

Howard, I do belive your intentions to be genuine, and I do not believe you have a hidden agenda. I do belive thinking you are going to get a public reply over this matter is not going to happen. You may not even receive an email reply from them as they may think you have a hidden agenda so maybe you need to find another way to address your concern.



Joel Alpert
TRS Enterprises
email me at joel@alpert.net if you wish to get on our mailing lists
also email me if you are a sports bettor, I may have a great online/phone service for you!

 
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Dave
(Login CollectGU)

Re: AMERICAN MEMORABILIA'S ROSE SPIKES-ANSWERS, PLEASE?

November 11 2005, 12:11 PM 

AMI has refunded customers in the past as well...big deal..All you have to do is provide them with the evidence and they will do the same....Second, so you are saying that you don't bring up Bushing's well publicized mistakes because he has posted here once or twice? So, the less attention you get, the louder you scream on this forum? Furter, I don't understand your logic - You say you won't post as much about the other auction houses Like Vintage, Mastronet, or Grey Flanne because they don't respond here..And then in the same sentence you say that you go after AMI becuause they have responded here in the past, and wont anymore???? By the way, If Dan has a problem with Lou, let him bring it up here, you don't need to be his mouthpiece. Last, yes you have questioned other auction houses but not nearly as much as you do AMI even though othere have also made their fair share of mistakes...

 
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Rick
(Login encinorick)

Stick to the items, less with personalities

November 11 2005, 12:52 PM 

Howard, your annoying as hell, but you provide an invaluable service to people like me who just want to have fun with gameused items and experience a little "quality" time with our children reminiscencing about old sporting events and legends. I don't want to buy something that isn't authentic, simple as that. I'm in agreement with Dave, stick to the individual items and less with the personalities. The best thing that these auctions do is bring to the public items of interest. Money taints everything in this business as it does in every business. It is and all will be "buyer beware." Finally, two points; (1)this is not a science, but a matter of opinion, and (2) for gosh sake, these sports guys are nothing more than a bunch of jocks. Most don't take this stuff as seriously as you guys do. For example, a ML ballplayer breaks his bat on a pitch, picks up another player's bat and hits a homerun. Later the bat is sold at auction as "gameused" even though the name etc. on the bat isn't his, etc. How do you verify that it is gameused by the player? Pictures? (what if there are none) Testimony? (who's gonna believe that) This is how the real world works.

 
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both-teams-played-hard
(Login both-teams-played-hard)

These auction houses may not respond to this forum...

November 11 2005, 1:03 PM 

...but they sure as hell read this forum! Who really cares if Lou Lampson posts on this forum? It would be mildly entertaining to read the questions...however, what can a collector learn from him?

EVERY auction house that has sold questionable items has been called out on this forum!
American Memorabilia and Grey Flannel sell AWESOME sports memorabilia and jerseys. 100s of items that I wish were in my collection. However, I doubt I will ever give them business because "adjacent to refuse IS refuse."

 
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Reid
(Login sportscentury)

Pete Rose shoes and red dye

November 11 2005, 4:00 PM 

Folks,

Let me preface this note by stating that I am asking the following question with a genuine interest in learning.

Regarding the Rose shoes, does it look like they were perhaps dipped in red dye? I was comparing these shoes to my photographs as well as Rudy's informative display, and I can't help but notice that the laces are reddish (they look dyed red, not originally red), the Nike swoosh symbols have a red tint, the white Nike embroidery on the tops of the tongue flaps look dyed red, and even the white plastic bottoms look like they have a red tint. Do other people see this? Was it common in those days to dye shoes a certain color?

Again, I am genuinely trying to learn something by posting these query. Please understand that I will not respond to any type of hate-driven retaliation or attacks, though I realize people are free to post as they see fit.

Thank you,

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.

 
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rudy
(Login kingjammy)

ol pete and his vat of dye

November 11 2005, 6:29 PM 


reid,

interesting question(s)!

my opinions:

- the laces: the laces are the most baffling. i believe the laces were originally red for only 1 specific reason; if you look at the plastic end caps of the laces, the lace that's been squeezed into the plastic end cap looks to be red. that is to say, had the laces been dyed, i don't think that the dye would've completely covered and stuck to the plastic end caps. i think with dyed laces, you would've seen red laces and under the plastic end caps, the true color of the laces would show through. maybe i'm wrong though. i've never dyed laces. i just don't think dye adheres to plastic very well. what really baffles me about the laces is the random discoloration. if you look at the shoe furthest away, there are parts of the same lace that are vividly red and then the vivid red just stops suddenly and becomes almost bleached. why the extreme difference? i've never seen laces lose color like these. i've had colored laces and they don't really fade this much. these almost look like there was some bleach poured on them. look at the parts of the lace that are very red. how did they get peach-colored in certain specific parts? did ol pete drop some bleach on his shoes? the laces are 'hammered' with use, yet the end caps aren't broken at all, the toes are barely scuffed, and most amazingly, the nike logo printed on the heel hasn't faded or chipped at all? in all of my nikes, the logo they print on the inside heel has worn away in about a month. red laces would not look like that in a month.

- as for the nike swoosh on the side and on the tongue, personally i think they more
reflect the reddish-brown color of that major-league new jersey mud.

incidentally, i've seen some equipment where players have colored over logos. look at the black nikes on alan trammell in my collage. it appears he took a black marker to the nike logo on the tongue.

- i don't believe the shoes were dyed because i don't see how it could've been done while keeping all the white parts so white without geting any dye at all on them. no bleeding or running at all. the only way would've been to meticulously tape over all of the white parts and then apply the dye. sort of like air-brushing an item. carefully apply tape over the parts you don't want painted, cut away any excess, paint away, and then peel the tape off. somehow i can't see ol pete sitting over a bubbling cauldron of dye with an x-acto knife delicately cutting away the tape. if you were to dye a shoe, i think you'd pretty much just have to paint over the whole thing or suffer through some sloppyness of the dye getting onto the white parts.

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rudy.



 
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Reid
(Login sportscentury)

Re: ol pete and his vat of dye

November 11 2005, 7:33 PM 

Rudy,

I can't thank you enough for all of your recent posts with the photoanalysis. Extremely helpful, interesting, and informative.

Based on your post and photos, I have to agree with you. I had thought they may have been dipped (not submerged), but it does not appear to be the case.

Do you mind me asking what photograph software package you use? I think mine might be subpar and I'd like to upgrade.

Again, thanks for you truly fantastic posts.

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.

 
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Reid
(Login sportscentury)

P.S.

November 11 2005, 7:39 PM 

Rudy,

I'm sure you were kidding ... but rest assured that I did not ever think Pete would have been the person to have dipped them. I've met Pete Rose and I doubt he could even have thought of it.

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.

 
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