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The Dornier Do 17 “Bacalao” in Spanish skies part 1

July 9 2012 at 3:03 AM
Score 2.0 (1 person)
Peter Dupont  (Acceso PeterDupont)

 
En primer lugar, quiero dar las gracias a Vladimir Nikiforov, que me proporcionó una enorme cantidad de imágenes en su mayoría de Ebay. Y, por supuesto, Salvador Marín, TR Javier y Manuel Rodríguez Valverde, que ofrecieron su ayuda cuando tuve algunas cuestiones no resueltas.

=====================================================================

First of all, my thanks go to Vladimir Nikiforov, who provided me with a tremendous amount of pictures mostly from Ebay. And of course to Salvador Marin, Javier TR and Manuel Rodriguez Valverde, who offered their help when I had some unresolved questions.

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Only 32 aircraft in total were delivered to Spain, mostly the early Do 17E-1 (bombers) and Do 17F-1 (reconnaissance) variants, and late in 1938 an additional five Do 17P (photo reconnaissance).

Picture 1: Transparent view of the Dornier Do 17E-1 bomber

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Picture 2: Transparent side- and upper/lower view of the E type

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Picture 3, 4 & 5: Cockpit interior, dorsal blister & BMW engine of the Do 17E-1

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Picture 6: Drawing with indication of differences between Do 17E and Do 17F types

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Picture 7: Armament and camera installation of the Do 17F-1

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Picture 8, 9: Side view comparison between Do 17E and Do 17P versions, transparent side- and upperview of the Do 17P.

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Picture 10 15 : Do 17P cockpit, radio compartment, (the almost useless) ventral gun position and undercarriage details.

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Picture 16 - 19: Some interesting details for the modelers (starting lorry + rear entrance door + camo and opened engine fairings) and for the period after the GCE: Ejercito del Aire painting instructions for insignia and numerals of 1940.

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Remark: All sources and the captions of a lot of pictures (I have seen so far) contradict each other as far as the subtype (Do 17E or Do 17F) is mentioned. By studying the pictures of the aircraft and taking in consideration that the only visible difference between these types is the bombsight fairing of the Do 17E under the right side of the nose, I come to the following summary (while it is absolutely sure that all Do 17s including 27-1 27-4 were also used by VB.88 as precision bombers):

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And now a summary of the aircraft used in Spain in sequence of their individual code.

27-1 (PABLO-1)

Pictures 20 - 32:

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Forced landing at Santander-Est due to damage to its hydraulic system by Nationalist fire

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27-2 (PABLO 2):

Pictures 33 - 36: Very few (bad quality) pictures of 27-2 are known to me, probably because this aircraft was the very first Do 17 loss of the Legion Condor and was shot down after only two operational weeks.
The aircraft was flown by Oberleutnant Hans Sobotka, the other crew members were Otto Hofmeister and Friedrich Müller. It was shot down by Republican I-15 fighters led by Felipe del Rio Crespo, credited with seven victories. On his turn, Felipe del Rio was shot down four days later.

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Tail unit of 27-2 in the background of 27-3

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The remnants of the tail-unit of 27-3 after been shot down on the 18th of April 1937.

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27-3 (PABLO 3):

Pictures 37 - 48:

In service with VB.88

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The crash of Rudolf Jöster, former commander of the Ju 52 Pablo Gruppe, due to hydraulical problems:

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Pictures 49 53: 27-3 in service with A.88 (with the insignia Das muss man haben!!): Also note the new style of lettering.

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Note 27-16 Mucki in the background.

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Picture 54: This picture maybe shot during the 2 months 27-3 served with 8-G-27, but that idea is only based on the appearance of the Spanish looking guys near the aircraft. On the 29th of October 1938 Luis Rambaud Goma (Jefe del Grupo) and his crew died during a mission over Salas de los Infantes.

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27-4 (PABLO 4):

Pictures 55 61: 27-4 (PABLO 4) in service with VB.88

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Pictures 62 - 64: 27-4 in service with A.88 (not new style of lettering and the red heart insignia with some characters under the cockpit)

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Pictures 65 + 66: End of service life for 27-4? / before, while or after in service with 8-G-27 ?

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27-5 (Ace of Diamonds):

Pictures 67 - 76

27-5 next to 27-1

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Ace of diamonds insignia clearly visible, the A.88 insignia were added later

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Another proof that the Do 17s and He 111s suffered from a lot of landing accidents on the rather crude, sandy, sometimes muddy airstrips in Spain.

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Sunk in the mud

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27-5 came to a bad end on the 25th of July 1937.

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27-6:

Pictures 77 - 79

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27-7:

Pictures 80 82: In service with VB.88

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Pictures 83 - 85: 25-7 in service with A.88 wearing a lightning flash and the text A/88

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Pictures 86 94: 25-7 in service with A.88 wearing the black cat insignia

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25-7 with black cat insignia but without the red devil insignia of A.88 next to the engines.

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25-7 with black cat and red devil insignia

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27-8:

Pictures 95 - 102:

27-8 in service with VB.88

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27-8 in service with A.88


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27-9:

Pictures 103 - 113:

27-9 in service with VB.88

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27-9 (Papas Liebling [1] see also 27-24) in one of the most colorful schemes of all Do 17s, first period in service with A.88

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27-9 in service with A.88, second scheme

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27-10:

Pictures 114 - 115: VB.88

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So far Part 1, I hope you like it,

Still one unanswered question: Who can identify this aircraft from A.88 ????????????????????

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All the best,

Peter.


Sources:

Air Enthusiast no 30: Picture 1
Magazine HPM 1993_01 (Czecho Slovakia): Picture 2, 16, 98, 101,
Kagero Dornier Do17 part 1 by Edward Kocent Zielinski: picture 3, 4, 8, 10
Wikipedia: picture 5,
Bilek Modelarum no 12 - DornierDo-17E-F-4: Picture 6
Bernard Graefe Verlag Vom Original zum Modell Dornier Do-17-Do-215 by Karl-Heinz Regna: picture 7
Luftwaffe Dornier Do 17P Flugzeug handbuch: Picture 9, 13, 14, 15
Website AERONET GCE-IBERONET: Picture 11, 12, 19, 51,
Ebay (Germany): Picture 17, 21, 27, 29, 42, 44, 48, 52, 60, 65, 75, 88, 95, 96,
Jet & Prop Foto-Archiv band 12: Picture 18, 20, 90, 105,
Archive Vladimir Nikiforov: Picture 22, 24, 26, 30, 33, 34, 35, 36, 39, 46, 47, 53, 55, 56, 59, 63, 64, 66, 67, 69, 70, 71, 73, 74, 76, 77, 78 79, 80, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 92, 93, 97, 99, 102, 107, 108, 109, 110, 112, 114, 115,
Archive Manuel Rodrigues Valverde: Picture 23, 40
Archive Juan Arraez Cerda (via Aeronet GCE-Iberonet): Picture 25, 28, 38, 43,
My Scratch book: Picture 31, 45, 54, 57, 58, 72, 91, 106,
Aircam-Osprey Airwar no 3 Spanish Civil War Air Force: Picture 32
Hikoki Condor The Luftwaffe in Spain 1936-1939 by Patrick Laureau: Picture 37, 50, 62, 68, 81, 113,
Eksprint (Russia) Dornier Do 17 by C Kushnikov: Picture 41
Archive Salvador Marin: Picture 49
Jet & Prop Magazine 2009-01: Picture 61
Aeroplano no 9 (Spanish magazine): Picture 89,
AirDOC WWII Combat Aircraft Photo Archive ADC003 - DornierDo-17E-ZDo-215: Picture 94, 111,
Classic Air War over Spain by Rafael Permuy: Picture 100,
Flugzeug Archiv no 9: Picture 103,
Website Aviation Corner Net: Picture 104,


 
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AutorReply
JMCastro
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Gracias Peter...

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July 9 2012, 9:21 AM 

Muchísima documentación gráfica y fotos inéditas. Al menos para mi.

Otra vez mil gracias por regalarnos este impresionante documento recopilatorio.

Recibe un cordial saludo

 
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JavierTR
(Acceso JavierTR)

Do-17 en Asturias

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July 9 2012, 5:44 PM 

Muchas gracias por el magnífico trabajo Peter. Las fotos son muy interesantes, pero en el cuadro que identifica a todos los aviones tengo algunas dudas:
El Do-17 "27-2" es el derribado por Felipe del Rio sobre o en las cercanías de Galdácano en Abril de 1.937.
¿Cual es el Do-17 derribado en Asturias durante la batalla de "El Mazucu" cerca de Llanes?
Hay lápida de los tripulantes:
http://www.arama.org.es/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,34/page,view/catid,14/key,11/hit,1/lang,en/
http://www.arama.org.es/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,34/page,view/catid,14/key,12/hit,1/lang,en/
Por otra parte creo que el Do-17 "27-11" que colisiona contra un He-70 tiene lugar en La Albericia, Santander y no en Llanes como dice el cuadro.

 
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Peter Dupont
(Acceso PeterDupont)

Muchas Gracias Javier por sus comentarios,

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July 10 2012, 5:19 PM 


Aquí en Holanda, las fuentes acerca de la CCE son difíciles de encontrar, por lo que todas las mejoras de los datos mencionados es muy bienvenida.

La colisión de 27-11: ¿Cuál es tu fuente / demostrar que éste tuvo lugar en La Albericia, Santander? Tengo tres fuentes que citan diferentes lugares, por lo que me maten! Patrick Laureau está mencionando Llanes, Karl Ries está mencionando Llanes también [ver foto en la página 99) y en el sitio Luftwaffe Experten Message Board se ha mencionado Santandeo pista de aterrizaje.

Por la presente se incluyen algunas fotografías del accidente (que aparecerá en la parte siguiente), que puede resultar su opinión (al menos como se puede reconocer la pista de aterrizaje de estas imágenes). Por favor, hágamelo saber.

¿Do-17 derribado en Asturias: Este es un año difícil (por cierto, gracias por el enlace interesante).
Ese día (09/04/1937) dos Do 17s fueron derribados cerca de Llanes, tanto por el fuego antiaéreo (descripción de Patrick Laureau, página 23), pero no hay número de aviones individuales son mencionados. Ries sólo informa los nombres de los miembros de las tripulaciónes).

1) El avión de la Oblt. Hans-Detlef von Kessel, Uffz. Waldemar Schnell, Ogefr. Waldemar Krüger (y Gunter H.?)
2) El avión del teniente Gerhard Krocker, Uffz. Hermann Heil, Uffz. Ernst Hein

Para mi opinión hay 3 posibilidades: 27-6, 27-10 y 27-12. Si la declaración de Laureau es verdad y 27-6 se perdió en julio / agosto de 1937, lo que tiene que ser 27-10 o 27-12.

Gracias de nuevo y espero tener noticias pronto de usted,

Abrazotes,

Peter.

=======================================================================
Thanks a lot Javier for your comments,

Here in Holland, sources about the GCE are hard to find, so every improvement of the data mentioned is very welcome.

The collision of 27-11: What is your source/prove that this one took place at La Albericia, Santander? I have three sources mentioning different places, so shoot me! Patrick Laureau is mentioning Llanes, Karl Ries is mentioning Llanes too [see picture on page 99) and on the site of Luftwaffe Experten Message Board Santandeo airfield is mentioned. I hereby include some pictures of the accident (which will appear in the next part), that may prove your opinion (at least as you can recognize the airstrip from these pictures). Please let me know.

Do-17 derribado en Asturias: This is a difficult one (by the way, thanks for the interesting link). On that particular day (4-9-1937) two Do 17s were shot down near Llanes, both by anti-aircraft fire (description from Patrick Laureau, page 23), but no individual aircraft numbers are mentioned. Ries only reports the names of the crew members).

1) The aircraft of Oblt. Hans-Detlef von Kessel, Uffz. Waldemar Schnell, Ogefr. Waldemar Krüger (and Gunter H.?)
2) The aircraft of Lt. Gerhard Krocker, Uffz. Hermann Heil, Uffz. Ernst Hein

To my opinion there are 3 possibilities: 27-6, 27-10 and 27-12. If Laureaus statement is true and 27-6 was lost in July/August 1937, than it has to be either 27-10 or 27-12.

Thanks again and I hope to hear from you soon,

Peter.

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JavierTR
(Acceso JavierTR)

La fuente

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July 10 2012, 11:39 PM 

Hola Peter: Las fotos del Do-17 estrellado contra un He-70 están tomadas en La Albericia (Santander). Existen muchas fotos que tu también tendrás de Bf-109 de la Legión Cóndor obtenidas en La Albericia, y en ellas puedes observar que el la pista de aterrizaje está en un valle y en sus laterales hay cuestas con terreno más elevado y casas.
En cambio el antiguo aeródromo de Cue también oonocido como Llanes está situado en lo alto de una meseta plana sin edificios ni elevaciones a su alrededor. Es una especie de portaviones natural.
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Como puedes ver en la imagen era una zona elevada azotada por vientos en la que era dificil aterrizar. En alguno de los arboles de los barrancos que hay a los lados del campo se estrelló un Bf-109 de la Legión Cóndor que quedó partido en dos y cuyas fotos son muy conocidas. Probablemente se quedó "corto" en la aproximación y perdió altura respecto a la pista. Creo que era el "6-42" o uno similar. Hay controversia con el serial.
Mi fuente, logicamente es que soy asturiano. Y aunque no vivo en Llanes he estado muchas veces allí y lo conozco bastante bien happy.gif

Saludos.

 
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Peter Dupont
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Hola Javier,

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July 11 2012, 12:26 AM 



Muchas gracias por su respuesta y el hermoso cuadro de aerodromo de Cue (Llanes). Como siempre digo en estos asuntos: No hay fuente mejor que un español.

Cuando pongo el último hilo, en relación con el Do 17, en Aeronet, voy a incluir una visión revisada, incluyendo esta información.

Todo lo mejor,

Peter.

==========================================================================

Hola Javier,

Thanks a lot for your reply and the beautiful picture of Cue (Llanes) airfield. As I always say in these matters: No better source than a Spanish one.

When I put the last thread, concerning the Do 17, on Aeronet, I will include a revised overview, including this information.

All the best,

Peter.



 
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Justo A.Ramírez
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Excelente reportaje.....

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July 9 2012, 10:43 PM 

.Peter.sencillamente impresionante la documentación que has aportado.Gracias´
Justo

 
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Eloy
(Acceso EloyCarbo)
Moderador Aeronet GCE

Espléndido. Muchísimas gracias.....S/T

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July 10 2012, 12:35 AM 


 
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Dusan Slezak
(Acceso DusanSlezak)

Gracias Peter

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July 10 2012, 9:39 AM 

por el magnífico trabajo!!
Salu2
Dusan

 
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Xan Berasategui
(Acceso xanbe)

Re: The Dornier Do 17 “Bacalao” in Spanish skies part 1

Score 2.0 (1 person)
July 12 2012, 4:30 PM 

Hello Peter,
thanks a lot for sharing this wonderfull work
I am loocking for pics of VB88 Do-17 too.
I knox that a Do-17 of the VB88 was the first to drop bombs aver Gernica.
He appears alone an half of an hour before the others.

I would like to know wich one was the first Do-17 who drop the first bomb in gernika, and know this such simbolic crew's members

faour Do-17 arrive at the VB-88 before the 24 of april:
the 27 O 1 pablo1
the 27 O 2 pablo2
the 27 O 3 pablo3
the 27 O 4 pablo4

the 27 O 2 were shot down in Bilbao the 18 of april so it can be this one...
meanwhile, I learned that the three Do-17 take part in this operation but not together...

about the crews, that is what I have:

- Oblt Joester. Ofw Koessler. Uffz Troll (27 X 1);
- Uffz Schmilz. Fw Mantwitz, Uffz Hinterberger (27 X 2);
- Uffz Immel. Uffz Brohammer. Uffz Möller (27 X 3):
Uffz Steiner, radio-operador de reserba ...

when I asked for thhis information in this forum Paco Valero told me the pilot had not personal planes and flew in anyplane of the VB88 including the He-111..

Would you have any information about this first plane in Gernika and its crew ?

i have some pics you did'nt put on line, if it can help you, see below...


Decia que estoy en busca de un Do-17 particular
a la 16:30, un avion, un Do-17E vuelo en solitario sobre Gernika y lanza las primeras bombas sobre la ciudad.
Me gustaria determinar qual fue exactament este avion y al poder ser determinar cual fue la tripulacion para poder saber que fue de esta gente que abrio un largo et funebre bail que se repetiria en Londres Dresde Nagasaki o Vietnam...

este Do-17E pertenecia à la VB88 (grupo experimental de bombardeo)

el VB88 recibio 4 Do-17E en el mes de marzo 1937

27 X 1 (pedro 1)
27 X 2 (pedro 2)
27 X 3 (pedro 3)
27 X 4 (pedro 4)

el pedro 2 cayo en llamas el 18 de avril sobre Bilbao...

Quedan tres...
supe tanbien que los tres Do-17 participaron en la operacion pero de manera separada...

sobre las tripulaciones, e logrado esto:

- Oblt Joester. Ofw Koessler. Uffz Troll (27 X 1);
- Uffz Schmilz. Fw Mantwitz, Uffz Hinterberger (27 X 2);
- Uffz Immel. Uffz Brohammer. Uffz Möller (27 X 3):
Uffz Steiner, radio-operador de reserba ...
si alguien sabe algo sobre la tripulacion del 27X4...

cuando pregunte en este mismo foro informacion sobre el acontecimiento, PAco Valero me respondio que los pilotos del VB88 volaban todos los aviones de la VB/88 incluidos los He-111...

tengo algunas otras fotos mas que añado al estupendo trabajo de crecompilacion de Peter:

el pablo 1

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el pablo 4

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el 27 O 14:

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y este lista;

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Xan Berasategui











 
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Peter Dupont
(no login)

Do 17 – Guernica

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July 14 2012, 5:49 PM 


Hello Xan,

Thanks for your reaction on this post and especially for the pictures of your archive (including some I had not seen before). I hope to post the last part on the Do 17 within 10 days, for then we go on holidays, but at the moment it is pretty busy at home, so I am not so sure if I can manage it.

Concerning your question: I have nothing to add on what you already know:

The first wave consisted of a lonely Do 17 with the intention to destroy the bridge near Guernica, indeed, this must be 27-1, 27-3 or 27-4.

Information in some standards from Karl Ries, Patrick Laureau & Gerald Howson is not specific enough to add more detail (see your own enclosures).

Even more, the information you write on possible crew members is new for me (and I wonder where this information comes from). Just like Paco Valero told you, in those early days of VB.88 the crews did not have their own planes.

In this link you can find some more information on the Guernica raid (see page 7-8):http://www.scribd.com/doc/50822915/Guernica

I hope one of the other forum members (Juan Arraez Cerda, Juan Millan, David Gesali and others) have some more specific material.

Thanks again (and if you have additional pictures on part 2 after I have put it on the net, Ill be very grateful,

Best regards from Holland,

Peter.


 
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Anonymous
(Acceso xanbe)

Re: Do 17 – Guernica

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July 15 2012, 1:51 AM 

Hi Peter,
thanks for your answer.
I'm an kit builder, so I di wanted to mount the model of this first Do-17.
after a while, if I don't find sure information I will have to make a choise.
It will be logical in my mind to choose the 27 O 1 plane and the crew:
- Oblt Joester. Ofw Koessler. Uffz Troll (27 X 1);

Iknow it's not sure at all, but I'm a history teacher too, and my idea was idantife the bomber who push the boton who drop the very simbolic firdt bomb who open the black long vals who ebded in hiroshima
if an identificated this guy, I was interted to know what i became during the WWII war...
best regard Peter from basque country

Xan

 
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Juan Millan
(Acceso leocadio)
Aeronet GCE

A "romantic" project.

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July 15 2012, 9:01 AM 

First at all, my congratulations for your interest in this sad and , of course, interesting work.

As you be a member of the academic world,in my opinion, you may contact with somebody to met in the past with the late Pau University Professor Manuel Tuñon de Lara or anybody in France involved in this "real" origin of this evil´s Vals and the guy that released in "ein" position the switch to drop those human invents called bombs, a loveley things..!!!

I am sure that you never found here the object of your interest for many reasons that I do not want to refresh in the times we live. Otherwise I am sure too that it is posible to found the fly diaries of all the Condor crews but, frankly, I do not wants to recommended you to anyplace here or the way to found.

The Gernika affair is part of the history considered very polemic in the current times when only a very few persons with a lot of years upper theyr shoulder maintain interest y those kind of stories.

Most literature regarding this matter can be considered the perfect things to be put in a dust bin, you will found that Gernika sad day was a military action , the responsible are perfectly reconnaised such General Mola, Sperrle, Von Richtofen and of course Franco.

You can found loads and loads of estupid facts such number of planes, number of victims, every day means "less" victims and those kind of information trying to bury the truth, destroy the sacred heart of the Basque people, included the oak when the Spanish Kings sworn the Fueros Vascos.

Most succesfull spanish writer works called military "historicians" maintain the 40´s Franco´s propaganda to explain ridiculous opinions.

Try in France not in a spanish internet forum as this place. I feel unhappy to tell you as clear I tryed to explain but the thigs are as is.

Bad times,in my opinion very similar than the last days or Weymar Republic.

You can write me via e-mail in order to help you further. I am very interested hoping that you finally found this "romantic" storie.

Evil´s Vals, I really like this sarcastic (sorrowfully) word.

This is my E-mail:

jma991@gmail.com

EGUN ON Xan on a suny spanish sunday.

Juan Millan




gce.jpg aeroweb.jpg


    
This message has been edited by leocadio on Jul 15, 2012 9:11 AM


 
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Juan Millan
(Acceso leocadio)
Aeronet GCE

As usual.

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July 15 2012, 9:42 AM 

Your works was , be and will, the best of the show.

A very limited show with very low profile with a lot of people absolutly tired to talk the very few that really knows.

For this reason, thank you very much Peter (spelling PIETER), your works are as good as ever.

I have to claim that I am sorry, I think that I am a very un well manered guy biut I promissed I will write further very soon.

You (both) gave us a soft and lovely winds in our faces on a moment covered with black clouds.

Thank you, Lineke, thank you Peter.

I really missed those burst out of laughing, I never forget those happy moments.

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Yours, for ever.

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Abrazotes.

Juan





gce.jpg aeroweb.jpg

 
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Peter Dupont
(no login)

Dear Pilar & Juan,

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July 16 2012, 10:07 PM 

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It is real great pleasure to hear from you. We fully understand that the both of you need all your energy to comfort those who need that so badly now. That is life, there is a time for pleasure and there is a time for sorrow. Lineke and myself hope that someday the wings of the windmill will turn again as they used to do.

We will send you a letter (by real mail) as soon as we will back from holidays (in about three weeks time).

For now we send all our love to you and your dear Pilar,

Lineke & Peter.


 
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heliofly
(no login)

Re: The Dornier Do 17 “Bacalao” in Spanish skies part 1

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July 17 2012, 9:25 PM 

Exellent job,Peter!Thanks for rare photos 27-7.I am wait continue with impatience!
Regards,
Andrei

 
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Peter Dupont
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Andrei y todos los demás,

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July 18 2012, 1:59 AM 

Gracias por su apoyo,

y Andrei: 27-7, en (uno de) sus disfraces en primer lugar, aparecerá en la parte próxima y última, probablemente mañana.

Saludos cordiales,

Peter.
=====================================================================
Andrei and everybody else,

Thanks for your support,

and Andrei: 27-7, in (one of) his first disguises, will appear in the next and last part, probably tomorrow.

Best regards,

Peter.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: The Dornier Do 17 “Bacalao?in Spanish skies part 1

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October 5 2014, 3:42 PM 


 
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