Now Summer is on its way and some thoughts turn to ' Bus Painting ' .......

As you are aware this forum has an inbuilt ' search engine ' which is extremely useful and by using it the following info will be of help .......

Enter any of the following exactly , as taken from all of the posted forum entries , as shown into the search engine as a title box then click either of the ' match OR date ' boxes and then click the search button .........

HMG Paint --- useful paint codes

HMG Paints

Paint Codes and Coach Painting

Burgundy Paint

Indian Red Paint

Red Undercoat

paint codes/colourst

Paint jobs ++ Rubbish

ANY of the above will throw up almost all paint references along with various points raised in the accompanying ' thread ' responses so you need not bother asking about bus paint again for a while .... Contained in these threads are all paint codes / panel preparation advice / do's and don't do's / sealant info etc etc

One paint supplier NOT on here but suggested on my old Bravenet forum is .......

Premier Paints
unit 5 a
The Old Brick Works
Church Road
Harold Wood
Essex
RM 3 - 0 JA

Fone --- 01708 378 383
Fax --- 01708 378 280

Another paint supplier who has Aluminium primer available ......
ETCH PRIMER for Aluminium ---- www.trwillainson.co.uk ---- available as 2 pack

A London Bus RED finish paint colour as specified in ' Tender documents ' is ICI London Bus Red and is sometimes known as ' Corporation Red ' &code is P498 FPF3

A Company called ' WURTH ' also supplies a very good and useful Spray Etch Primer for aluminium, paint is Light Grey in colour . Best way is contact them and they will put you intouch with local rep' who can do sales deals over the fone and the goods arrive a few days later if postage to you is required . Their main office is in ABBEY WOOD , South London .

One thing to be very careful of if doing a repaint is the paint chemistry combinations.

Most of us have seen what happens if cellulose is sprayed onto a non-compatible paint as the effect is immediate.

However, the same effects can happen over a much longer period of time.

So If you are doing a bare metal repaint, keep the paint base the same from etch primer to top coat.

If using oil based, the grade of thinners should increase as you near the final coat.

With two pack epoxy and acrylic, gives great initial results but over time the paint can fleck and crack. The finish needs to be kept as thin as possible.

Grades of topcoat can fade.
Cadmium is no longer used in Reds or Yellows so the reslience to fading is lower than with bygone times.

The newer water based reds suffer from this which is why so few cars now come in red or yellow.

If using the original finish paints then 5 to 7 year life can be expected if regularly out in the open. Stored in a dry dark store will push this much further. Reduce to @3 years if stored outside.

What would be very interesting and useful to know, following Ropey's comments on longevity, is what is the very best modern coating for durability and fade resistance, particularly where people are not able to keep their buses under cover

"The newer water based reds suffer from this which is why so few cars now come in red or yellow." Not true. I work for the worlds largest car manufacturer and it is customer demand which dictates the amount of cars in a particular colour, not paint durability!. Also many manufacturers and plants have not yet gone over to water based paint and still use solvent based (including this one). The requirement is simply to have plans in place to do so. The most common colour for cars by a massive majority is now silver, purely by customer demand. Non metallic (flat) reds are still available and always have been.

Ropeys comments are quite correct on the other counts though. Oil based paints such as synthetic coach enamels while being cheaper to purchase initially simply do not give the lasting durability of 2pack, however good initial results may appear. Stored undercover out of sunlight and only occasional use will last in excess of 10 years. I speak from experience with using this on one of my Landrovers, and from my fathers 42 years experience as a panel beater-sprayer. Used regularly, stored outside and not polished the finish will be as matt as a blackboard and faded to pink in about 6 years. Obviously regular polishing is not something you would want to do on something as large as an RM. The benefit though is that minimal specialist equipment is needed to spray it, or it can be brushed if you are a cheapskate. (Apologies to Busworks because their skilled coachpainters do a good job!).
2pack or 2k as it is known gives a superb finish (provided of course the preperation is spot-on, because that will make or break any respray) but requires proper PPE in the form of air fed masks and a compressor which is up to the job- not one from Aldi. As the paint cures it gives off cyanide which can and will kill you. You may not die instantly but up to 4 days after using the product. DO NOT RISK IT. The finish is actually more like an epoxy resin than paint as such, and will give the best protection from weathering weather stored inside or out. (I believe the Sovereign RMs were painted in two pack, someone will know). The problem is that true 2 pack paint is now banned by European regulation. Suppliers can sell old stocks, but no more can be manufactured, so buy it while you can if you want to use it. I have used 2 pack on RM 531. It is not cheap, you should buy enough of the same batch to keep as an insurance policy against future mishaps, there's nothing worse than mismatched colours on repairs. For quality paint, correct thinners, and most importantly primer, don't expect any change out of £500, then you need to get someone to spray it for you if you don't have the facilities yourself. It's not suitable for brushing.
Water based paint is another ball game altogether. Again, not suitable for brushing. To apply properly "puffer jets" of clean air coupled with heatlamps need to be applied immediately after spraying. The primer is still solvent based, and you need to apply a solvent based clear laquer over the base coat to stop the paint, which is literally glorified emulsion, from washing off. It needs to be mixed with de-ionised water and sprayed. Mistakes such as runs can simply be washed off. The jury is still out on its long term durability, but Ford began using it some years ago in some plants with disasterous results. its not uncommon to be able to run your fingernails down the paintwok and make the dreaded blackboard sound. Most of the refinish trade is now using water based.
The "best" paint with regard to lasting high quality, durable finish can only be properly applied 2pack, if you can get it, and more importantly, if you can afford it. Quality does not come cheap! If you want a cheap repaint which will make the bus look shiney for a couple of years use oil based coach enamel, but be aware of what WILL happen to the finish. And if you must brush paint, use a quality brush for gods sake, not one which will shed its hairs all over the bus and give a finish like soldiers paint their army trucks! London Transport was the benchmark for quality and in their day the RMs reflected this in their appearence. A coat of red Dulux with a B&Q value brush is an insult to what an RM should look like.

If you look at the cars that have been finished in water based paints you can see why red is no longer in vogue.
Yes, red cars are still around but not so common with those who are using new technology paint systems

For example Red Audis are terrible for fading even within their warranty period. SAABs are similar and again just the red and yellow colours suffered as did Alfa (and most Alfas are red)
But some other colours still look good after 10 years. It is all down to the pigment compositions and chemistry bases as well explained
by Steve.

The bias towards silver, white and black and neutral colours was industry driven as a cost effective solution to avoid warranty payouts. Not so long ago reds were very popular.

The warranty claims on fading paints that meet environmentally driven requirements are the reason why colour tastes have shifted.

The image makers, marketing,stylists and advertising agencies have all been long briefed to steer us, the consumer away from 'problem' colours.
I know this because my father is a coatings industry consultant, one of my friends a specialist colourist and another runs an ad agency with a major car account.
It's been one of those dinner party topics when a load of art graduates get together!

As far as Routemasters go, The paint finishes on the Timebus vehicles is superb.
The red has a dense finish with a deep luster and a glass like shine. far more like that of a car than a bus but it also seems to wear very well.
So if anyone knows what they used it would be good to know.

'' The paint finishes on the Timebus vehicles is superb.
The red has a dense finish with a deep luster and a glass like shine. far more like that of a car than a bus but it also seems to wear very well.
So if anyone knows what they used it would be good to know.''

Ropey & others ........ Timebus of St Albans have for years been using the excellent services of North Kent Coachworks in Greenhithe , Kent . This place is found about 3 miles from '' Bluewater ' shopping centre along and just off the main road between Greenhithe & Gravesend . Its is the old home of ' North Kent Express ' London commuter Coach services which ceased operation some years ago . Many of the staff there now are the same as when this coach operation was a going concern . The painters have a professional air controlled closed spray shop / booth and a Routemaster will take about a week to fully finish with final polishing being applied on day 4 OR 5 of the process . '' 2K '' paint is currently available but I personally don't know for how much longer .

Anyone wanting contact details please e'mail off group ..

Quite right Alan ( or should that be Wright !) London Bus & Truck do a fantastic job, just look at RTW 75 which was painted four years ago & has a finish like it has just been done. The company is going through a bit of a change at the moment & within the next few months will be able to offer mechanical as well as bodywork services by ex LT trained staff in fully equipped workshops, Routemaster brakes & electrics will be a speciality. Regards, Paul.

Thanks for the very useful and interesting information gentlemen - pity that 2K sounds on the way out. Steve mentions polishing for protection and it certainly seems to me that a polish with high uv protection is worthwhile for buses which are outdoors frequently, even though it might be a mammoth task. I've heard of the red coloured wax being used and presumably that might work even better.

Should have mentioned that 2pack is available in two grades- what is basicly Commercial 2 pack which is slightly cheaper, and the higher specification automotive (car) 2 pack which gives a far superior finish. I used the car grade.

Anyone who wonders what their bus is painted in will know instantly if its 2pack. It is a very hard finish quite resistant to sandpaper and almost immune to the effects of Nitromors. Incredibly tough. Coach enamel will scratch easily and will react to Nitromors in seconds.

A good coat of high quality polish will not only enhance the appearence but protect the paintwork and aid water run-off so it is worthwhile. Coloured polishes tend to turn the paintwork the colour of the polish in some cases with prolonged use. Messy around rubbers and transfers too.

Spraying the bus takes a couple of hours. Masking properly another couple of hours. Preparation of the body beneath will take anything from weeks to months depending on the man-hours available to do the task. I took a year of weekends and weekday sparetime single handedly to prepare 531. Failure to prepare thoroughly will ruin the most expensive respray. A ding, dent or crease which can be felt with the hand will be seen with the eye when the paint dries. Do not be tempted to cut corners, you will only dissappoint yourself in the long run. A small dent badly filled in the middle of a panel will stick out like a sore thumb. Take your time, if you run out of money, come back to it when you have some. The pleasure is in the working on the bus. When the pleasure becomes a chore it is time to stop work and walk away. I burnt out 3 orbital sanders and used 150 discs of various grades, enough aluminium to repanel half the bus, hundreds of body inserts, boxes of rivets, half a dozen tubes of panel sealer, a large tin of filler and an awful lot of elbow grease but I still know myself where I could have spent just a little longer in places and got a better result.

The painting is the final part, get everything else sorted first.

... it's a funny expression isn't it - wonder where it comes from .....? Press photographers used to use "nose grease" for filling in scratches on negatives....not a lot of people know that....

Fantastic advice Steve - thank you very much!!! I thought you were going to quote "Fail to prepare - prepare to fail" - equally good advice for job interviews, exams, presentations and painting buses!!

Thats a good account Steve and a good point about the grades of 2-pack.
In fact oil based are the same and for some years one of the enamels was known as Busline.
It was a cheaper version.
The car grade is better and grade thinners makes a massive difference in the flowout. but as you correctly say, the final result is all in the preparation.

There are no shortcuts, it's slow hard almost brain numbing graft.

Some years ago way back when the big MCW Bus plant was still insitu at Washwood Heath , Birmingham I went up there to the factory to try and get fotos of the RMLs known to be there that were being repainted for LT . If memory serves me correctly it was around the time Aldenham had or was about to close and Chiswick was not yet able to handle the repaints in quantity ..

The paint being used was ' Williams Speed Paint ' OR Speed Coat , can't be exact what its name was . This paint contained its own Varnish in the mix with the idea being that it speeded up the repaint programme for LTs Routemasters . Needless to say the paint finish did not last very long compared to an Aldenham finish and more to the point neither did MCWs bus construction last much longer as that also shut down not long after the MCW Mark 2 Metrobus building programme was completed .

London Transport purchased 1,440 MCW Mark 1 Metrobuses and 2 Mark 2 versions which contained some modifications to LT spec request . A third version , the Mark 3 for London , was to be constructed by MCW using ideas gained from the FRM project & bus itself along with other improvements suggested by LT engineers . An MCW chassis was built -- AS WAS A SECOND FRM CHASSIS -- BOTH were cut up before any bodying actually took place . The MK3 MCW was cut up at Washwood Heath factory and the 2nd FRM chassis was secretly CUT UP in the works area [ later to become the scrap yard and sales area ] behind FULWELL BUS GARAGE as my sources tell me .

For those who don';t know ---- MCW == Metro Cammel Weymann == This name is found on many London Underground trains on the floor plate across the train carriage door entrances .

I am open to any updates and corrections that are offerred , thanks ..

"For those who don';t know ---- MCW == Metro Cammel Weymann == This name is found on many London Underground trains on the floor plate across the train carriage door entrances ." Almost true. It's "Metro-Cammel" written in italics across the doorways. Metro Cammel (or correctly "Metropolitan- Cammel) which was the train carriage making company which merged with Weymanns the bus body builders to form MCW. On its collapse the train making arm was taken over by Alsthom (whose name replaced Metro Cammel on the train doorways) who kindly shut down the Birmingham factory and transferred tube train production to its native France.

My uncle was a draughtsman at MCW when things were designed on paper by humans before the advent of CAD. He took several photos which I still have of repainted RMs around the plant alongside new Metroriders. They are complete with freshly painted dents, a sad sign of things to come.

There are many brand names of coach enamel. Most popular perhaps are Tekaloid and Tractol. Terrible stuff, the names in their ranges such as Ford Blue, Massey Ferguson Red, Caterpillar Highway Yellow give an indication of what their paint is best suited to. Its like 1930's paint without the lead, even smells of linseed oil. Fades terribly in the sunlight after about 2 years. Perhaps OK for interiors (they do a sung yellow I believe) but stear clear for external body panels.

Thanks for the update , The photos will be good to see in the next or subsequent newslelters please . I did get several shots of RM/Ls ?? in the yard but they were from the outside of the plant , very touchy about what was there and no chance of closeup photos ,and a good distance away so nothing other than them being Routemasters is available as info .

When Aldenham was in it's death throes, it is true that several Routemasters were sent to be painted elsewhere, MCW being one.
ECW -Eastern CoachWorks was another and one of the Buses was RM1280. The quality of repaints from here was way better than the MCW and others. They did deal with dents and it was painted I recall, in 2 pack acrylic The bus then worked on the 65 up till the bitter end moving to Westbourne park where it was a favourite and was named by the crews.
The nearside wing alloy treads were stripped and polished by ECW and all the detatchable fittings removed rather than masked to give a good durable coating.

Yes I used the search engine and not one of the 50 posts contained the elusive paint codes list, just posts about personal preferences for different makes of paint.

So where please, is this list and why can't it be accessed easily if at all, would someone please care to let me into the secret because I do remember seeing on this site before.

Claire

Me too,
Used the search but could not find the codes.
jp.

I eventually got the codes that I wanted but not by putting in paint codes or anything like it. I put in 'Sung Yellow' and hey presto up came the 50 posts and low and behold there were all the paint codes

Funny fings, these computors

Claire

I told you the paint codes were all there . The 8 ' post headers ' I listed were given as the posts to look or , the rest of the info required was already in the accompanying threads .