Chaps ,

Whatever anyone wishes and thinks of me for what I say I care precisely nothing OTHER than for keeping the ICON SAFELY ON OUR ROADS where they belong.

At the RM Assoc AGM recently during the 'AOB' end period an attempt was to be made for open/sensible/constructive and forward thinking overview of the current and future parts scenario to be discussed with some sort of direction for members and the committee to look into with the growing reduction of parts availability for all to see.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN did it ?? those who were there will know this to the disappointment of many.

Mike Fuller [RM A Secretary] compiled a 'list' which he gave to us as committee of a 'what I want' members wants list. This list contained NOTHING OF REAL SERIOUS INTEREST , 99% COSMETIC parts - make the bus look pretty parts - fantastic, with no available bus movement it will still look pretty and yet not move an inch. Stupidly I'll ask ---- 'is that what you want ??', according to the 'list' it seems so.

Now our good friend Phil Higgs of LTT wades into the topic and makes good points regarding parts problems hes experiencing at his end of the world in what they do for RM Amembers and NON Ms ALIKE.

The discussion is growing from every direction as it must if our buses are to survive as much as we want them to for our amusement and pleasure, why else did we buy them ??

I have been sort of accused as a concerned committee person, not that I care anyway, of making UNNECESSARY LOUD NOISES concerning this growing spares availability which if you care to read some of the past discussion arguements on your forum here are not of my making. Clearly many of you know this is the case as you've raised and added to it in these discussions. Traditionally companies who always did supply the RM fleet operators are now outsourcing some repairs/carry NO stocks of readily available 'off the shelf' goodies and when they do want the earth for them based of limited future requirement as they see it. I will say in fairness that yes IMPERIAL ENGINEERING do have some spares in stock BUT look at the prices when you consider they outsource to HEBBLE of Huddersfield and then add some profit for themselves , thankyou very much. I don't need to make the noises anymore based on what info I have been given such as above, searched and found for myself passed on to many members because you are kindly taking up the discussion. Another Good friend 'ROPEY ALTERNATOR' is now throwing some weight behind the cause with yet more vaild input so you can't all be wrong EXCEPT ME OF COURSE AS USUAL but KNOWING PRECISELY NOTHING AS I DO my input is NOT counted .

So rather than waste your valuable time I will NOT suggest YOU who are NOT concerned don't have a gathering perhaps somewhere very difficult to get to NOT such as NORTHAMPTON and NOT sit around wasting everyones times trying to get an idea of where NOT to go and NOT to get started in the hunt NOT to keep our buses on the road where we want them. As an RM ASSOC' committee person I believe its NOT my job to pay attention to any members yet unlike some members who have everything THEY WANT simply sit back. I feel very drawn, quite wrongly of course, to all of you members who have purchased your buses, also purchased some NOT needed tools because you don't need spares and of course never will , but when you do they will be falling off the shelf saying 'LOOK ,I'M HERE BUY ME PLEASE'.

To be really scarcastic does anyone remember that famous white chalked statement on the front of a CONDEMNED STEAM LOCOMOTIVE smoke box door ?? ....... it read simply 'PLEASE DON'T LET ME DIED' rather apt is it not for our buses as the spares begin to dry up.

Even PVS's ROUTEMASTERS are so wanted they are being repurchased/hauled away ultimately rebuilt which of course means a massive space in PVS will soon be available where the wrecks once were OR whats left of them on the floor there .

As usual I'm sadly very wrong but then I don't care do I ??? OR DO I ?? ........ you decide !! Read Phil Higgs & Ropey-As latest posting

Goodbye from me for yet another totally useless posting.

Alan

deja vu.

We have been here before, and I for one have previously voiced my concern regarding the spares situation a long time ago, as you will recall. Sadly apart from a few owners the majority remain silent, and I am afraid it will be difficult to achieve what you are suggesting unless a sizeable number of owners become actively involved. I sense a resignation in the tone of your comment that you are already accepting the inevitable. It would seem that the emphasis is indeed on cosmetic rather than mechanical or electrical attention to the Routemaster in private ownership. How can this be changed, it probably will not, until of course the 'inevitable' arrives and wakes those in deep slumber.

It is true that you do make 'unnecessary loud noises' at times, the result of which usually upsets someone. However making noises on this issue is actually what is needed, and from what you say it further reinforces my own doubts as to whether the RMOOA is itself capable of addressing this issue. How we proceed from this point onwards is something every owner will need to think about seriously, and with this in mind I am moving towards a more radical approach in how I am going to keep 2335 on the road. I am going to have to think outside the box, which rather suits me as I am quite bored at times hearing the word original, or other such diatribe. We are told of some 3.5 million people being out of work in 2010, well if that includes RM owners they will have plenty of time to concentrate on keeping up appearances.

Ed

Alan,

I wonder if the silence should be attributed to lack of interest ?

I suspect the vast majority of us are behind you in the desire to ensure we can still source parts to keep our fine machines running ...

...however i suspect the silence is because we have no idea which parts are going to the difficult ones to source ? Until a particular part on our vehicles fails and we then find we cannot source a replacement, we don't know it is unobtainable.

I think we need to rely upon those who have had such failures to pass the information to the committee members and for them to assimilate it.

Whilst vehicles are running we are more likely to be focusing upon cosmetics and thus be aware of the cosmetic items in short supply.

When a mechanical part fails it is likely many of us will need to call upon the expert advice of trained mechanic with a safe workshop and rely on their analysis of the problem and solution.

In consequence I am quite content to rely upon the expert likes of Philip Higgs and The Doc who have much greater knowlege of what mechanical parts are prone to failure and in short supply, given their much greater dealings with such matters, to determine where the priority lies.

I am with you Alan, as I am sure many of us are, I just don't have the info to make a valuable contribution and prefer to defer to those whom do.

Like I say, you do have my support !

Hi All

I think the spares issue has to be seen in the context of why people own RMs in preservation. For me it is a mixture of curiosity, enthusiasm and wanting to own such an iconic object - schoolboy ambition fulfilled, etc.

People will vary in their appetite for taking their chosen hobby seriously or less so and there will be a range of abilities.

Personally, I have mechanical skill but lack of facilities (although we are blessed with a wonderful facility in which to keep RML2603 under cover). I think many RM owners are in the same boat.

It has been well said that people only change their behavior when they are shocked. That shock, when it comes, for most RM owners will be some sort of mechanical failure.

I see myself as the custodian of RML2603. One day I will not be able to do that any longer. If, before that time, something goes 'bang', I will have to deal with it. In the meantime, we keep her maintained and give her just enough running.

I hope that one day I will be able to pass RML2603 onto someone else who wishes to take care of her for another period of time. Maybe one of my sons (or even daughter!) may take an interest but as double decker bus private ownership per capita is less than one in a million this is statistically unlikely.

There is bound to be attrition in the preservation market. In a sense, the spare parts we seek are in other peoples' buses! There will be a gradual contraction in the RM population as vehicles fall into disrepair or become completely derelict as their owners lose interest/become ill/die. But one of the great forces working to reduce the losses to the RM population is things like this Forum for it increases communication between owners thereby making it more likely that a cry for help (one of the above mentioned crises) will result in the vehicle receiving the spares it needs or being passed to another enthusiast as a doner vehicle. One donor vehicle may keep perhaps a dozen other vehicles for perhaps another 10 years.

One good thing about people caring more about the cosmetics of their vehicles than the mechanicals (beyond basic safety requirements, of course) is that their vehicles will be more attractive to potential buyers and, if the ownership base can be broadened, eventually these vehicles will pass into the hands of those who can do the mechanicals. But that, of course, will need spares which is Alan's point. We need spares.

Cheers.

Thanks chaps,

From my point of view, right or wrong, one of our biggest problems is simply the 'secrecy syndrone' that exists out there amongst many owners/members alike. There are pockets of members dotted here and there who are all looking after their buses by using locally sourced parts/repairers and never bother to help others do likewise within the same 'club'. If every member who has sourced a repairer for some partb of other was to give us that information then the 'supplier booklet' would instantly double overnight to benefit all. Its good of course that there are groups here and there for that helps them in more ways than just one but to keep their sources of information secret makes no rational sense does it. It is only by painstakingly checking out many companies in this booklet that we find that some have been taken over/closed down/moved addresses/fone numbers changed etcetc which we do with expenditure from our own pocket, ie DAY TIME FONE CALL to be paid for, When working for BT this was a major plus here for me as it was FREE during the working hours, now things are different and anywhichway fone calls are paid for mobile or otherwise.

As I put my hands up for daring to bring this topic into the open it has brought out ideas/thoughts/suggestions and generally created for those who want to a sense of 'what if ' I need a part and its not there, this is an achievemnt on its own, mechanical things break down and arrogant complacency will not solve anything to get it repaired.

Having looked at the wider field of what the RM Assoc has or has not done for the last 20 years purely from an active committee point of view then I looked at this and reflected on the origins of your ASSOCIATION/CLUB ...

The 'Routemaster Operators & Owners Association' was conceived 1989 and kicked off formally with a meeting of around say 30 [can't recall exact numbers, got it all somewhere] equally like minded 'preservationist and operators' folk wanting to keep the buses on the go and helping across the board with sourcing of parts/suppliers to do so etc. The membership grew as the word went out and so did the wants of the members for their buses, LONDON RM bus GARAGES became useful sources of parts and also info of who they used to get them. The Association moved from strength to strength with gently growing numbers year on year. We had various itms made which were no longer out there such as window rubbers/obtained ccorrect STAINLEES Steel screws/ got 'inserts' made and even replica GRILLE 'LT' TRIANGLES all of these sort of things at sensible 'members prices'. RM 40 came and went/the Assoc' benefitted from that great event and toddled along for yet more years until all of a sudden an announcement that RMs were to repurchased/overhauled for further London service to boost capacity was made and that shook the world as we knew it. An event to celebrate RM 50 was suggested and plans began being made ---- THEN THE BOMBSHELL .... Route 15 was to CONVERT to OPO operation, many thought that was a result of DOCKLAND LIGHT RAIL SUCCESS, to a point it was BUT then another bomb fell --- this time Route 11 was to convert to OPO .. whats happening? we thought, is this the start of something big? , then another route to convert and so on BUT REMEMBER 49 Repurchased RMs WERE BEING or had been OVERHAULED WITH FURTHER LT service in mind and yet serviceable Routemasters were being WITHDRAWN from frontline service. It went on months went by and withdrawals increased, OVERHAULS entered service ... whats going on?? Even Andrew Morgan couldn't get any sense or explaination out of TFL, nothing unusual there !!!. During this time plans were being developed with RM 50 in mind at Finsbury Park in JULY 2004, this came and went, brilliant it was tooo and again the ASSOC' benefitted greatly. PLEASE BUY ONE OF THE CELEBRATION BOOKS IF NOT DONE SO ALREADY =='Monarch of the Road'...plug over .

As all this was happening our membership also grew as new owners wanted help & information on the buses and to be fair in many cases we couldn't answer their queries simply because the owning companies had done their own thing after the RML refurbs had settled down ++ refurbing their own small fleets of standard RMs so much of what we knew about the 'originals' was out the window and thinking had to change, for some it did, for others it was like a acceptance refusal because these 'refurbs are different' == live with it became the norm in some cases. Our membership grew and peaked at around 440 during 2006 and has since settled back to around 340.

So what you say, well its like this -- TWO of the original concepts of the RM ASSOC' as its now more commonly known was to obtain as much 'technical information' as possible, corrulate it all - our Brian Lewer does this superbly for us and makes available to you the members, all you do is ask !! To a point this is ongoing as time moves on but is slowing down because we have almost as much as we can get from where we get it. Unless we raid the LT MUSEUM and steal their archives we are not getting much more. SOURCING OF MECHANICAL PARTS was also a major item from day one of the Assoc' and it is written down to prove it. The advent of the MARSHALL refurb programme was a major factor in parts acquisition BUT only in so far as AEC ENGINES// GB 32 GEARBOXES and many other questionable mechanicsl parts really only useful as parts for 'reconditioning' in their own right for reasons they were worn out of plain broken/condemned or whatever reason.

The fact that we got these parts was an achievement to be grateful for but it was not going to help the long term situation of availability of mechanical parts we will need sooner or later. Yes some suppliers are saying they will look after the Routemasters for some time yet ..... strangely they don't mention their support end date do they ?? It will happen as night follows day.

All I seek to do is get the RM Association membership to be concerned for themselves as owners of ICONS and to make sure they have the wherewithall to be able to keep the bus safely on the road for as long as they wish to and if that means a wake up call then so be it.

If more members actually read this carefully and tried to understand what I'm trying to make you aware of then I've achieved my goal and will sit back and say no more. Collectively its you the members who drive your Association, its down to us to do everything we can to respond with help you in your quest, and our own if needed, A decisive collection of way forward ideas will help do this and banish the parts/repairs secrecy thats become embedded in the Association and will benefit everyone who owns an OFFICIAL ICON.

Thanks for reading this, over to you.

It's not just Routemaster parts that are becomming hard to come by ! It's every type of bus in preservation be it Leyland,Guy,Daimler or Bristol. As time goes by, and it gets longer and longer since any of these vehicles were in production and regular use that the need to make spares and more importantly stock them becomes less and less, to the point were many firms say it's uneconomic to keep them on the shelf - a fact of the modern buisness era we live in.

It would be wonderful to walk in to a parts stockest and say i want this that and the other for a Routemaster or Leyland PD2/12 or whatever but we can't. So what do we do about it-most likely just talk about it and do nothing, Alan is trying to go the right way about things from what I see of things-some are listening, some are not ! My way of thinking is it's all very well having a bus thats in concours condition and worthy of a trophy at the likes of showbus every year, but it's no good if you can't get to these events if your bus is off the road indeffinatly is it, waiting for a part that you can't get 'cos they don't make it anymore and nobody's got one anywhere in stock.

Maybe with a bit of fine tunning Alan's thought's and suggestions can be put in to reality and with a bit of hindsight someone could start getting parts re-made and re-stocked in reasonable supply at reasonable prices and not just for Routemasters.
If someone can get a few brake pipes knocked up in small numbers think what they could do in larger numbers,the list is endless.

Letts see what happens !!

I think it highly unlikely where we'll get back into a situation where manufacturers will hold stock on their shelves ready for use at a moments notice, because they're the sort of items that aren't turning over fast enough now that the buses don't get as much exercise as they did when they graced the streets of London. The key is to make sure that the relevant manufacturers still have the drawings, CAD files, mold, templates, etc... to re-manufacture the parts when they are needed, perhaps even to the extent where the RMOOA acquires the molds and templates ready for the next time a batch need re-manufacturing.

Such lead times aren't too much of a problem for enthusiast owners, a months lead time on a part might be annoying but doesn't unduly affect me. Possibly more of a problem for the small commercial operators who have bookings that need to be fulfilled, don't have spare vehicles that could be substituted and therefore need parts instantly in order to get the bus back on the road.

Perhaps this is where the RMOOA or some other entity could step in to provide stock holding facilities to smooth out the supply. It would also help to address the problem of batch sizes, in that manufacturing efficiencies occur when ordering several copies of the same item rather than individually.

I mention some other "some other entity" because rather than the RMOOA it might make more sense for some form of partnership, where everyone buys into the partnership and those funds are used to organise the manufacture and storage of parts. Parts are sold on at slightly more than manufacturing cost to cover storage costs, such that there is sufficient money in the pot so that at any point in time one or two of the partnership call elect to drop out and get their original money back. Obviously, someone with a legal and financial background needs to rewrite the rules properly, but it's a general synopsis of how a collective could fund a mechanism to safeguard parts.

Round and round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows. Interesting that this debate has been picked up on the ROOF website, its such a shame the 3 people concerned can't just join in the main debate on here rather than taking it away and having their own little debate on the other side. In a way this typifies the spares situation- people see whats going on, or whats needed, say nothing and then retrench to do things in private.

Much has been said in anger and frustration now. Rightly or wrongly. But always passionately. The fact is that no-one has a crystal ball and no one knows what they will definately need. Based on the power of averages, the owner can reasonably assume what they might need. This will be dependant on the vehicles usage, service or preserved, mileage, and maintenance. One day, every routemaster will require an unloader valve. Try finding one. Its said that the maunfacturer isn't even known. Likewise one day every bus will require propshaft universal joints. And every bus will require accumulators. And radiator hoses. Amd microswitches for air pressure. And window winder gear. And on and on and on. Of course the question is whether your bus, my bus or Freds bus needs it today, tomorrow, next week, next year, or in the next 10 years.

In a time of economic crisis no one is going to throw money into a pot to fund parts they may never need. FACE THAT FACT.

What might occur is that people will collectively fund the remanufacture of parts which they personally DO need.

Phillip Higgs has found that a part so simple as a brake hose, a service item which will fail, is unobtainable and has had to have them made. Well done Phillip, no doubt you will use what you buy. I would suggest here that perhaps an upgrade to Goodridge stainless steel flexi hoses would be an excellent move- a greater cost of course but then its fit and forget.

People can pontificate all day long about the seeming "laisez faire" attitude of owners, laxadaisy even, or maybe blind stupidity. We all hope that a major failure won't befall us, but it could, and there but for the grace of god go you or I.

Maybe it is simply the wrong time economically to have this debate. Maybe in 5 years time when vehicles are off the road for want of a brake adjuster will be better.

So lets now sit back, await the torrent of information which will be returned to the Association saying what people really, really want. And if that doesn't come, then it has to be concluded, reluctantly, that people are either not interested or not in a position to do anything. And that will be that, the situation will be the same as today, with small groups doing small things in small numbers for themselves.

Today many new owners are in hard times, myself included, I am on a 4 day week with a large paycut to match. With family commitments, the bus insurance now due, MOT next week and a yearly storage bill due in a month, I for one am simply unable to commit another penny to bus ownership for the foreseeable future and my bus is being enjoyed on a shoestring budget. A major breakdown WOULD put it off the road and into "laid up" mode until finances improved. You can say that that is no way to own and run a routemaster, I agree wholeheartedly. But the bus was bought when times and finance was good, cash was plentifull to lavish on it. At this moment in time it is not, so if it is not for me, then it is also not for many others.
Lets not criticize or judge owners for not throwing cash into a proverbial pot when many simply do not have it. It does not mean lack of interest in the subject, or their vehicles future.

Chaps,

As I read every post, I need to, rest assured I am greatly pleased to see the wide ranging common sense articles following this situation that right or wrong simply will not go away. The longer its left unaddressed the harder the problem will become.

While I cannot and would not wish to argue Mr Andersons point of the credit crunch now is as good a time as any to begin relationships with companies who might be able to help us in future, irrespective of what they can offer us.

The fact the point is finally getting home and being realised by many as not going away is all I seek to achieve with the ideas that without some attention being paid NOW to what will happen then we can begin to secure our toys future one way or other.

YOU/ME and every owner of an ICON will be confronted sooner or later so preparation is vital.

Other various owning clubs can address this for whatever they have so must we.

Cosmetics will be around for as long as wanted and relatively easy to produce, items such as Compressors will not be thats all.

The time is now right up a step up one rung on the ladder of parts, the hard ground has been broken, and the long climb out has begun ...

Hello Alan (and all)

Apologies for the gap in correspondence. I have been working away and attempting to move house (Friday I hope). Also apologies for missing the AGM. It will always be difficult if the date is the last Saturday in January as I have a year old daughter born on the 29th of January so I'm afraid that Saturday afternoon is already booked for the future!

On the spare parts subject I think that until a full illustrated parts list is compiled with alternative parts shown (i.e.for refurbished buses and where originals have been superseded) and other useful information, apathy will reign. I would be happy to assist with this but do need someone to steer the project as I'm easily sidetracked and will put of these things unless someone is screaming (I'm supposed to be invoicing right now, not checking the RM Forum).

I have illustrations from the LT BEMS books (as I'm sure do others). Is there an area on this site such a list could be published and accessed by members? Does anyone else have part number lists with descriptions (I also have an old BEL catalogue which may be of use). Even if it is simply the LT Part No. (fairly useless in the real world) it would give a description and a simple drawing to help someone I.D. the part. This information may at least get some interest in the subject and hopefully bring some details of what is available including pattern parts manufactured for the association.

Let me know if anyone is interested in this project.

Better get these invoices done or I'll have to sell my buses to eat.

David Colin

Welcome Back Dave,

Wondered where you've been and you still owe me a fone call which I bets been forgotten ...

If you can scan the info you have then it can be placed into the RESTRICTED ACCESS FORUM so can them be seen by anyone wanting to , there might be otherways we can do this but I'd need to check with Forum software providers exactly how and if possible.